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Reduce Gifting Fee for Cards from 100% to 20%

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Benevolent 1
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Reduce Gifting Fee for Cards from 100% to 20%

Postby Benevolent 1 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:37 am

A player gifting a card must pay a 100% tax on that gift. This is an excessive fee. Reducing or eliminating that tax would be a great help for casual players. As it is now, the gift tax forces casual players with little bank into the auction where bad things often occur to their trades because of various despicable bidding practices seen at auction. Many of them will only gift card due to bad experiences. Either that or they decide to quit the game.

Cards bought at auction already have an advantage. Currently, there is also no fee at auction. Secondly, cards sold at auction have the ability to enter players decks which have no cap space, see link ---> viewtopic.php?f=15&t=509364
These advantages alone are already enough incentive to attract players to auction for selling their cards. Having a smaller gift fee will not harm the auction. Moreover, a smaller gift fee on these gifting transactions is much more equitable for the casual, small deck player.

Therefore, I suggest a lower gift fee of 20% for gifting cards in Season 3.
That is a .01 fee on an uncommon card gifting instead of the current .05 fee. On a legendary that equals .20 bank versus 1.00. Common cards would either be free of any fee or remain at 100%. I suspect this change in the game could help the casual small deck player more than any other measure.

Please share your opinion.

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Islands Of Ventro
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Postby Islands Of Ventro » Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:32 am

How bout 75%, 20% seems a little low.
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Benevolent 1
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Postby Benevolent 1 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:30 am

Islands Of Ventro wrote:How bout 75%, 20% seems a little low.


Think about it, .75 of an epic, rare or uncommon card's junk value isn't a workable figure. It's a fraction.

But why keep it so high? What's your thinking here? The entire point is to help the small deck, bank player stay in the game.

Who is helped by the high gift fee? Who is helped by driving more card transactions to the auction? Mostly the well financed players. Let's even the playing field and let these players feel they can survive.
Last edited by Benevolent 1 on Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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One Small Island
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Postby One Small Island » Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:43 am

Hard Pass.

There is nothing that needs to be fixed about the card gifting system. It's fair and balanced and effects everyone the same way. It's very much not difficult to get the bank required to gift any card. This is completely unnecessary.
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Benevolent 1
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Postby Benevolent 1 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:58 pm

One Small Island wrote:Hard Pass.

There is nothing that needs to be fixed about the card gifting system. It's fair and balanced and effects everyone the same way. It's very much not difficult to get the bank required to gift any card. This is completely unnecessary.


That's your subjective opinion, but truthfully you've missed the point. It's not fair or balanced bc of the exorbitant 100% fee when compared to the other card redistribution system which is the fee free auction.
Last edited by Benevolent 1 on Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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One Small Island
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Postby One Small Island » Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:01 pm

Benevolent 1 wrote:
One Small Island wrote:Hard Pass.

There is nothing that needs to be fixed about the card gifting system. It's fair and balanced and effects everyone the same way. It's very much not difficult to get the bank required to gift any card. This is completely unnecessary.


That's your subjective opinion, but truthfully you've missed the point. It's not fair or balanced bc of the exorbitant 100% fee when compared to the other card redistribution system which is the fee free auction.


It is both fair and balanced, because the auction comes with a risk of someone outbidding or underselling you. You pay a fee to avoid the risk, you take a risk to avoid the fee.
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Benevolent 1
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Postby Benevolent 1 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:15 pm

One Small Island wrote:
Benevolent 1 wrote:
That's your subjective opinion, but truthfully you've missed the point. It's not fair or balanced bc of the exorbitant 100% fee when compared to the other card redistribution system which is the fee free auction.


It is both fair and balanced, because the auction comes with a risk of someone outbidding or underselling you. You pay a fee to avoid the risk, you take a risk to avoid the fee.


But they are out of balance. A 100% fee is prohibitive. Plus you've neglected to mention gifted cards can't be added to decks at or over capacity. That's a huge advantage for the auction in and of itself.

Lower the gifting fee to 20%, protect and keep the small deck and bank player.

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Grishahakkaverchynot
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Postby Grishahakkaverchynot » Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:18 pm

The current card gifting system isn't that prohibitive. Even a legendary card's gift price of 1.00 isn't that hard to obtain.
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Benevolent 1
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Postby Benevolent 1 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:24 pm

Grishahakkaverchynot wrote:The current card gifting system isn't that prohibitive. Even a legendary card's gift price of 1.00 isn't that hard to obtain.


It is for the new players. We want new players to thrive, not throw their hands up in disgust and walk away. The current auction is largely a card distribution monopoly controlled by the richest players. It need some better competition.

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Galiantus III
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Postby Galiantus III » Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:12 pm

I don't see how this would help casual players. Casual players don't normally gift cards, but hard-core players do all the time. So if anything this would only give established players more advantage.
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Benevolent 1
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Postby Benevolent 1 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:27 pm

Galiantus III wrote:I don't see how this would help casual players. Casual players don't normally gift cards, but hard-core players do all the time. So if anything this would only give established players more advantage.

Here's how:
I know of many, you can find them all over. Usually they have created a solitary region with a few puppet nations within it. There are tons of regions like this. When these players pull cards they don't use scripts.

Most all of them don't have much bank to spare or experience. One day they wish to consolidate cards to their founder nation. They see the two ways to move cards. Those choices are by auction or by gifting with a 100% fee. They don't gift bc it's too expensive.

So they try the auction bc there is no fee. Next they get into an unexpected bidding war, eventually get dropped on when they overbid to keep their card. Perhaps they repeat this a couple times with a low rate of success. They lose bank in the process and more often than not don't come back to auction. Who can blame them? These players will make trades by dual gifting only, telling me they won't go to auction ever again. Many of them give up collecting cards all together.

Don't pretend you don't know this happens.

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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:41 pm

i approve your idea.

I was asking myself if that idea could be taken advantage of, but not really.

I got no real objections on this. as long as gifting a common is not free.
20% might be a bit much for many players, but you won't see any objections from me.

I think I will be the only for.
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Postby Flanderlion » Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:25 pm

Better for card programmes - so I support.
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Galiantus III
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Postby Galiantus III » Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:48 pm

Benevolent 1 wrote:
Galiantus III wrote:I don't see how this would help casual players. Casual players don't normally gift cards, but hard-core players do all the time. So if anything this would only give established players more advantage.

Here's how:
I know of many, you can find them all over. Usually they have created a solitary region with a few puppet nations within it. There are tons of regions like this. When these players pull cards they don't use scripts.

Most all of them don't have much bank to spare or experience. One day they wish to consolidate cards to their founder nation. They see the two ways to move cards. Those choices are by auction or by gifting with a 100% fee. They don't gift bc it's too expensive.

So they try the auction bc there is no fee. Next they get into an unexpected bidding war, eventually get dropped on when they overbid to keep their card. Perhaps they repeat this a couple times with a low rate of success. They lose bank in the process and more often than not don't come back to auction. Who can blame them? These players will make trades by dual gifting only, telling me they won't go to auction ever again. Many of them give up collecting cards all together.

Don't pretend you don't know this happens.


If someone owns a card farm, they are no longer a casual player. The fact that they have to deal with a gifting fee intentionally makes it harder to farm cards with puppets and funnel them to one nation. If we were talking about a casual player with one nation, this will not be an issue.

This also seems like an obscure fix for card dropping. It's just so far removed, it isn't going to work the way you think it will.
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Postby Fauzjhia » Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:26 pm

Galiantus III wrote:
Benevolent 1 wrote:Here's how:
I know of many, you can find them all over. Usually they have created a solitary region with a few puppet nations within it. There are tons of regions like this. When these players pull cards they don't use scripts.

Most all of them don't have much bank to spare or experience. One day they wish to consolidate cards to their founder nation. They see the two ways to move cards. Those choices are by auction or by gifting with a 100% fee. They don't gift bc it's too expensive.

So they try the auction bc there is no fee. Next they get into an unexpected bidding war, eventually get dropped on when they overbid to keep their card. Perhaps they repeat this a couple times with a low rate of success. They lose bank in the process and more often than not don't come back to auction. Who can blame them? These players will make trades by dual gifting only, telling me they won't go to auction ever again. Many of them give up collecting cards all together.

Don't pretend you don't know this happens.


If someone owns a card farm, they are no longer a casual player. The fact that they have to deal with a gifting fee intentionally makes it harder to farm cards with puppets and funnel them to one nation. If we were talking about a casual player with one nation, this will not be an issue.

This also seems like an obscure fix for card dropping. It's just so far removed, it isn't going to work the way you think it will.


actually. it does not make it harder, just costly for a bit. but cards farmers can afford the costs, more then single nations.
when cards farmer goes beyond deck capacity, they often set a 2nd nations to use to transfer thing to the main. Look at KK, mikeswill. they are not scared by the gifting fee of 1.00 bank, that's nothing to them
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Postby Coffin-Breathe » Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:07 pm

The only reason for reducing the "gifting fee" I can see is again one of the absurd wishes of the big farmers to even more unbalance the card game in to their favour. Not enough that "card farms" and "overstocking without paying" are an abusement of the game rules by themselves (same as "pull events" and "inflating", aso), it´s outrageous and impertinent to demand such ideas as "a betterment for casual players" who usually don´t have any need for them, as they have no card farms and don´t do overstocking, therefore have no or little need for a reduced price for their little "casual gifts", not like "big farmers" who even want to avoid this small price for relocating their thousands and thousands of cards without taking the risks of the free and open market (which at least gives the "casual players" a small chance to get cards they want by buying them on the market "casually").
Last edited by Coffin-Breathe on Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Toerana » Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:39 am

I would only support a reduction in the gifting cost if it was paired with a "tax" from auctions.

An auctions "tax" would work well as there isn't really any bank sinks in the game. People just bypass the card cap once it reaches a certain point anyway.
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Benevolent 1
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Postby Benevolent 1 » Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:49 am

Coffin-Breathe wrote:The only reason for reducing the "gifting fee" I can see is again one of the absurd wishes of the big farmers to even more unbalance the card game in to their favour. Not enough that "card farms" and "overstocking without paying" are an abusement of the game rules by themselves (same as "pull events" and "inflating", aso), it´s outrageous and impertinent to demand such ideas as "a betterment for casual players" who usually don´t have any need for them, as they have no card farms and don´t do overstocking, therefore have no or little need for a reduced price for their little "casual gifts", not like "big farmers" who even want to avoid this small price for relocating their thousands and thousands of cards without taking the risks of the free and open market (which at least gives the "casual players" a small chance to get cards they want by buying them on the market "casually").


Not really. Cards that never go to auction can't get picked off by the players with massive card farms and big banks. Those players don't care whether it's 20% or 100%. C'mon man, they don't live in the world where chump change matters. Recall the old adage J. P. Morgan coined “If you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it.” The well heeled players with massive card farms don't care about this at all, other than it prevents them from making the grab at auction.

Toerana wrote:I would only support a reduction in the gifting cost if it was paired with a "tax" from auctions.

An auctions "tax" would work well as there isn't really any bank sinks in the game. People just bypass the card cap once it reaches a certain point anyway.


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Last edited by Benevolent 1 on Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Benevolent 1
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Postby Benevolent 1 » Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:10 am

Fauzjhia wrote:i approve your idea.

I was asking myself if that idea could be taken advantage of, but not really.

I got no real objections on this. as long as gifting a common is not free.
20% might be a bit much for many players, but you won't see any objections from me.

I think I will be the only for.


My opinion as well, gifting a common shouldn't be free since .01 is as low as it gets. I didn't weigh in either way on the OP on this, so as to hear opinions.

It's interesting the way the math works on the fee. Every figure over 20% involves some messy fractions at some point, but 20% is a perfect fit for all denominations other than common card. And a .01 fee for a .01 card is as cheap as it gets without being free.

This would be an easy fix on the technical side too.
Last edited by Benevolent 1 on Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Espeonica
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Postby Espeonica » Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:21 am

I only play the card game casually, and I think reducing the gift fee would help a lot! It's hard to keep track of the value of cards or to build up bank when I want to gift a rare card I just happen to get.

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Postby Homyland » Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:26 am

Full support.

I am a casual player. Trading a legendary for another legendary. My 3.45 bank is already low enough. I am NOT WILLING to go through an auction. We all know what happens when you funnel legendaries through auction.

Perfect example as to why this should be implemented.
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Benevolent 1
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Postby Benevolent 1 » Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:43 am

Homyland wrote:Full support.

I am a casual player. Trading a legendary for another legendary. My 3.45 bank is already low enough. I am NOT WILLING to go through an auction. We all know what happens when you funnel legendaries through auction.

Perfect example as to why this should be implemented.


Yeah, your funneled Legendary has an extremely high chance of getting diverted into one of the top players pockets. Small deck/bank players gets robbed there on a regular basis.

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Postby Fauzjhia » Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:50 am

Benevolent 1 wrote:
Homyland wrote:Full support.

I am a casual player. Trading a legendary for another legendary. My 3.45 bank is already low enough. I am NOT WILLING to go through an auction. We all know what happens when you funnel legendaries through auction.

Perfect example as to why this should be implemented.


Yeah, your funneled Legendary has an extremely high chance of getting diverted into one of the top players pockets. Small deck/bank players gets robbed there on a regular basis.


I can concur.
I sell legendary on a regular basis, I am not very interested in collecting them, and they OFTEN, if not always end up in the end the hands of top players.
Same way with my (anti-parasite program), it only end up giving cards farmers more bank, its the not small players who from profits from 1.00 and 0.75 bids, always the cards farmers. that's kinda expected.
The card game is hyper-capitalism and capitalism tend to make the rich, richer.
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Benevolent 1
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 138
Founded: Dec 04, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Benevolent 1 » Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:12 am

Fauzjhia wrote:
Benevolent 1 wrote:
Yeah, your funneled Legendary has an extremely high chance of getting diverted into one of the top players pockets. Small deck/bank players gets robbed there on a regular basis.


I can concur.
I sell legendary on a regular basis, I am not very interested in collecting them, and they OFTEN, if not always end up in the end the hands of top players.
Same way with my (anti-parasite program), it only end up giving cards farmers more bank, its the not small players who from profits from 1.00 and 0.75 bids, always the cards farmers. that's kinda expected.
The card game is hyper-capitalism and capitalism tend to make the rich, richer.


Let's have WA nations vote in a poll on this. Here you go...

https://www.nationstates.net/page=poll/p=176693

User avatar
Giovanniland
Diplomat
 
Posts: 655
Founded: Aug 10, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Giovanniland » Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:56 pm

Benevolent 1 wrote:Let's have WA nations vote in a poll on this. Here you go...

https://www.nationstates.net/page=poll/p=176693

/notamod, but admins have stated before that decisions on game changes are made through compelling arguments and not polls. Sure, the choice of making it WA only prevents the puppet spam problem, but the other part of the fact still stands.

Anyways, strongly opposed. The gift tax is there for a reason, to make those who bypass the auction system pay for it, which is fair. Gifting gives you the ability of giving any nation with deck space any card, provided you can pay the tax. It's only fair to have this tax in exchange for a secure trade without the chance of having the bank or the card sniped - essentially I concur with One Small Island on this.

Casual players, like Galiantus said, own one or two nations and don't really focus on cards; it's not a casual player anymore if the puppets are there only to funnel cards to the main nation. And once someone reaches that point, the resources are there for those who want it: card guides, scripts, the Discord server marketplace with many experienced players that can offer advice. Soon they are managing a significant farm capable of generating a fair amount of bank, and gifting taxes aren't really the issue anymore. Even if one doesn't have a lot of time to put into card farming, doing so every now and then is still a nice boost for their bank.

The only effective change that would arise is that big farmers would have even less of a money sink. Gifting and capacity are the two only ways one can give bank to the game, and you're proposing to reduce one of these two money sinks, which would lead farmers to accumulate even more bank. And I say this as a big farmer that would profit from this, but I choose not to, and instead cast my opinion against this proposal.
Giovanniland
Guardian of the West and Minister without Portfolio
Former Speaker of the Hall of Nations of TWP (x3)
Trading Card Collector (#1 for bank, briefly #1 for deck value)
WA Author (SC#364, SC#372, SC#373)

The Kingdom of Giovanniland - Giovannilandian Artwork Ministry - The Collection Collection Thread

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