Dealing with Frisbeeteria
Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:30 am
Greetings from Barometria!
For anyone who has participated in the EPIC card market, they will see a common name in almost all transactions: Frisbeeteria.
Frisbeeteria, while operating fully within the rules of the game and engaging in trade practices that are fairly transparent and fully allowed, is the single greatest menace in the entire Epic card market. He plays a virtually perfect game and dominates the market almost completely, much to the detriment of the enjoyment of other participants. The enjoyment of other participants is completely immaterial to him. That's not an insult, simply a fact. The reason that the enjoyment of other players is immaterial to him is because his goals are twofold:
A.) Collect as many EPIC cards as possible.
AND:
B.) Amass as much bank as possible.
Again, there is no question that he is playing the game completely fairly and completely within the rules. One might question, perhaps, a Game Moderator operating in such a way as to make the game less enjoyable for others, (trading cards only) but there is no question he has the right to do so.
I have spent a few days studying his tactics and offer the following conclusions:
1.) Bidding .50 on ALMOST all EPIC cards
His first tactic is to put in a bid of .50, the junk value, on almost all EPIC level cards, even ones he has several copies of. The reason for this is that some people will see that there is non-zero action on the market for that card, so they might list it at .50 hoping to get a few units over that by way of bidding. As often as not, the card simply ends up being sold to Frisbeeteria at .50, which benefits him, as it gives him greater control of the Epic card market.
Occasionally, Frisbeeteria will have a bid of greater than .50. This might happen because it is a card that he does not currently own or because he sees the MV as the card as justifying the bid. Again, people looking to gain quick bank will likely just unload the card if he is the only bidder.
There are only a few ways to negate this and those ways will only have limited impact on Frisbeeteria. Frisbeeteria has become strong enough, at this point, that nothing you will do is really going to impact him all that much.
1.) Someone with sufficient bank could bid .51 on all cards for which Frisbeeteria has bid .50, thereby qualifying for the first ASK of anything .51, or lower.
2.) DO NOT sell cards to Frisbeeteria at .50. If the market value is also .50, then you have the following options:
A.) Just junk it. Better nobody has it then Frisbeeteria get another copy.
B.) Sell it to an, "Ally," (i.e. puppet) at a higher price, such as .51. The effect of this will be that your card will still hit the market and that you would profit on any increased bid unless someone goes under on the ASK side, which they would really have no reason to do. Besides that, a lower ASK would match with Frisbeeteria's .50 bid anyway.
On this arrangement, there is basically no way to get the short end of it. Here are the possible results:
-Your nation sells the card to your other nation at the price, oh well.
-Your nation sells the card for greater than the price due to bidding, simply pull your other nation's bid as soon as someone outbids you.***
-You end up in a locked trade in which your nation sells the card at a slightly higher price while the second nation buys it at the bid price. You make a penny or two and your second nation buys a little lower, so you make a little and still have a copy of the card.
-Nobody can really undercut you on the ASK side because they would just match Frisbeeteria if they did. Even then, the fundamental mechanics are such that it is impossible to sell for less than your ASK, so you would still keep the card. Your second nation would also buy a copy of the card probably below junk value
***You could also theoretically use a third nation under your control to start an artificial bidding war (even if the third nation does buy, you're still selling to yourself) in order to drive up the price to whatever you think the nation not in your control will pay. I personally consider such a tactic unethical, so anytime I do this and my bidding nation is outbid, I just pull the bid and whatever happens happens.
Effectively, Frisbeeteria gets a bunch of cards and pays the same amount of money the seller would have been compensated just for throwing it away. Also, when successful, Frisbeeteria himself can just throw the card away (if he feels like it) without even taking a loss.
2.) Putting in a 1.00 ASK on ALMOST all EPIC cards in his possession, especially if he has multiples.
This is where Frisbeeteria's skill truly gets put on display, yes, skill.
One might wonder: What is the benefit of doing such bidding? There are several benefits:
1.) If the bidding were to somehow get that high, then Frisbeeteria simply sells the card for what is obviously a very good price.
2.) Frisbeeteria is also on the BID side of these cards usually at $0.50. Ultimately, this gives him the ability to take advantage (within the rules) of people trying to do what I call middling:
---What is Middling---
Okay, so suppose there is an ASK of $0.52 for a card and Frisbeeteria's ASK of $1.00. People are bidding on the card on the other side. Theoretically, since the bidding has to match in the middle if the ASK is lower (and ASKS can only be reduced, unless it is a new ask) a person could BID $0.99 and would therefore pay (.99+.52)/2 = .755, rounds up to .76 for the card. They might say, "Hey, this card is one that I don't mind paying .76 for, so let's do that!"
The next person cannot go a penny over because a $1.00 BID would match Frisbeeteria's 1.00 ASK and the highest ASK matches the highest BID.
However, what Frisbeeteria can then do is, almost simultaneously, reduce his own ASK to .99 whilst putting in a bid that is .01 greater than the second greatest bid. Example:
Asks: .52, 1.00
Bids: .50 (Frisbeeteria), .53 (YOU) .54 (Someone else)
Okay, so you increase your BID to .99 and Frisbeeteria reduces his ASK to .99 whilst simultaneously putting in a bid at .55, here's what is going to happen:
The .99 ASK and .99 BID are both highest and take precedence- Frisbeeteria sells the card for .99.
Frisbeeteria becomes the second-highest BID at .55, the middle on the .52 ASK becomes .54 (rounding).
Therefore, Frisbeeteria gains .45 (if nothing else happens) and buys and sells one copy of the card simultaneously. IOW, free money.
Why the $1.00 bid at all times? . The reason for the $1.00 bid to be sitting at all times is because it makes it easier for Frisbeeteria to watch the market. All he has to do is look at his value lists and see auctions that are in progress, which sounds like it would take a long time, but really doesn't because not too many EPIC cards are on the market at a given time. He can also open his list pages in different tabs and is extremely quick by now, can probably just glance at each page and know what (if anything) he has to do.
The big detriment to other players that doesn't even usually benefit Frisbeeteria is that none of them can do the .99 bid and essentially say they accept the middle price, or he's liable to swoop in and grab some free bank at the same time. This extends auctions by several minutes as players who are aware of this tactic must increase bidding by very small increments in order to avoid detection...just to make an otherwise standard trade. Even then, Frisbeeteria will just drop the ASK and do essentially the same thing if he feels like he is making enough on it.
However, that is only effective in a limited way because the middle won't be as big, as a result. The only way it would is if the lower bidding player cancels his/her bid completely enabling Frisbeeteria to increase his bid (whilst the top bidder is high bid-high ask locked) to the original asking price.
This obviously sucks for players because they can't just play the middle (with an eye towards actually buying) if they think the middle is an acceptable price. Frisbeeteria would have it that the player is making a mistake by creating such a big gap, which is true, but it's only a mistake because Frisbeeteria exists and has the card capacity to play both sides of almost every transactions. Also, Frisbeeteria doesn't care what does or doesn't suck for players, or he would not operate (as the rules fully permit him to do) in this manner.
There are only three things you can really do here:
1.) To the best of your ability, make sure Frisbeeteria is not online if he is involved in an auction and you are going to try this middle tactic. I don't know if Game Moderators can hide their online status, though, so if they can...he probably does.
2.) Just increase the bidding by extremely small amounts at a time and live with the fact that the auction is going to be extended by several minutes as you do the usual one-penny-over-the-other tactics. Just make sure to CHANGE your bids rather than cancel them, or Frisbeeteria can swoop in and middle it if there is enough value.*
*Either way, if he's involved, the worst-case scenario for him is buying a card for a very small fraction less than he is selling it for---he will profit in the end no matter what you do, unless you have counter-control cards...which most people don't...and Frisbeeteria is almost certainly aware and can check ownership to see if anyone who can do counter-control owns the card and could be a threat. Honestly, I've only ever seen a couple of people do Frisbeeteria's tactic in the first place, so this is unlikely.
3.) If you are going to middle, you might be able to if Frisbeeteria does not own the card, so check ownership. You'll become aware of a few other people who might drop one in on you and learn as you go, but certainly not as often or to the extent that Frisbeeteria does.
4.) Screw it, just don't play. If he wants the market, he can have it all to himself.
RESPECT:
Please note that this does not mean that Frisbeeteria should not be allowed to do this, as it is fully within how the markets operate and within the rules.
It sucks for players and makes them not want to participate, which is bad for the site, which Frisbeeteria is a Moderator of...but whatever. It doesn't break any rules whatsoever, but if I were personally a Moderator and participated in the game, my goal would be to play profitably in a fashion that doesn't take all of the fun out of it for, I expect, roughly half of the people who otherwise might want to participate.
Politically speaking, this is unchecked capitalism at work folks, so there you go! A company rises to the top eventually, that company ALWAYS wins at that point and uses its tremendous wealth and resources to control and oppress lesser competition. At best, you'll get the better of Frisbeeteria on the occasional position, but that's like taking a thimble of water out of the ocean.
But, from a playing perspective, you have to respect the ability and the cumulative weeks, perhaps even months, he has put into the game. When I say, "Cumulative," I mean if you add up the hours it turns into weeks or months. That level of obsession with acquiring virtual trading cards that have no real world value whatsoever and amassing as much fake money as possible that is good for nothing except the trading card game and never will be is nothing short of impressive.
We should be so lucky that he, as far as I know, is not in a position to apply that degree of cutthroat tactics to the entire world...we'd all be screwed.
For anyone who has participated in the EPIC card market, they will see a common name in almost all transactions: Frisbeeteria.
Frisbeeteria, while operating fully within the rules of the game and engaging in trade practices that are fairly transparent and fully allowed, is the single greatest menace in the entire Epic card market. He plays a virtually perfect game and dominates the market almost completely, much to the detriment of the enjoyment of other participants. The enjoyment of other participants is completely immaterial to him. That's not an insult, simply a fact. The reason that the enjoyment of other players is immaterial to him is because his goals are twofold:
A.) Collect as many EPIC cards as possible.
AND:
B.) Amass as much bank as possible.
Again, there is no question that he is playing the game completely fairly and completely within the rules. One might question, perhaps, a Game Moderator operating in such a way as to make the game less enjoyable for others, (trading cards only) but there is no question he has the right to do so.
I have spent a few days studying his tactics and offer the following conclusions:
1.) Bidding .50 on ALMOST all EPIC cards
His first tactic is to put in a bid of .50, the junk value, on almost all EPIC level cards, even ones he has several copies of. The reason for this is that some people will see that there is non-zero action on the market for that card, so they might list it at .50 hoping to get a few units over that by way of bidding. As often as not, the card simply ends up being sold to Frisbeeteria at .50, which benefits him, as it gives him greater control of the Epic card market.
Occasionally, Frisbeeteria will have a bid of greater than .50. This might happen because it is a card that he does not currently own or because he sees the MV as the card as justifying the bid. Again, people looking to gain quick bank will likely just unload the card if he is the only bidder.
There are only a few ways to negate this and those ways will only have limited impact on Frisbeeteria. Frisbeeteria has become strong enough, at this point, that nothing you will do is really going to impact him all that much.
1.) Someone with sufficient bank could bid .51 on all cards for which Frisbeeteria has bid .50, thereby qualifying for the first ASK of anything .51, or lower.
2.) DO NOT sell cards to Frisbeeteria at .50. If the market value is also .50, then you have the following options:
A.) Just junk it. Better nobody has it then Frisbeeteria get another copy.
B.) Sell it to an, "Ally," (i.e. puppet) at a higher price, such as .51. The effect of this will be that your card will still hit the market and that you would profit on any increased bid unless someone goes under on the ASK side, which they would really have no reason to do. Besides that, a lower ASK would match with Frisbeeteria's .50 bid anyway.
On this arrangement, there is basically no way to get the short end of it. Here are the possible results:
-Your nation sells the card to your other nation at the price, oh well.
-Your nation sells the card for greater than the price due to bidding, simply pull your other nation's bid as soon as someone outbids you.***
-You end up in a locked trade in which your nation sells the card at a slightly higher price while the second nation buys it at the bid price. You make a penny or two and your second nation buys a little lower, so you make a little and still have a copy of the card.
-Nobody can really undercut you on the ASK side because they would just match Frisbeeteria if they did. Even then, the fundamental mechanics are such that it is impossible to sell for less than your ASK, so you would still keep the card. Your second nation would also buy a copy of the card probably below junk value
***You could also theoretically use a third nation under your control to start an artificial bidding war (even if the third nation does buy, you're still selling to yourself) in order to drive up the price to whatever you think the nation not in your control will pay. I personally consider such a tactic unethical, so anytime I do this and my bidding nation is outbid, I just pull the bid and whatever happens happens.
Effectively, Frisbeeteria gets a bunch of cards and pays the same amount of money the seller would have been compensated just for throwing it away. Also, when successful, Frisbeeteria himself can just throw the card away (if he feels like it) without even taking a loss.
2.) Putting in a 1.00 ASK on ALMOST all EPIC cards in his possession, especially if he has multiples.
This is where Frisbeeteria's skill truly gets put on display, yes, skill.
One might wonder: What is the benefit of doing such bidding? There are several benefits:
1.) If the bidding were to somehow get that high, then Frisbeeteria simply sells the card for what is obviously a very good price.
2.) Frisbeeteria is also on the BID side of these cards usually at $0.50. Ultimately, this gives him the ability to take advantage (within the rules) of people trying to do what I call middling:
---What is Middling---
Okay, so suppose there is an ASK of $0.52 for a card and Frisbeeteria's ASK of $1.00. People are bidding on the card on the other side. Theoretically, since the bidding has to match in the middle if the ASK is lower (and ASKS can only be reduced, unless it is a new ask) a person could BID $0.99 and would therefore pay (.99+.52)/2 = .755, rounds up to .76 for the card. They might say, "Hey, this card is one that I don't mind paying .76 for, so let's do that!"
The next person cannot go a penny over because a $1.00 BID would match Frisbeeteria's 1.00 ASK and the highest ASK matches the highest BID.
However, what Frisbeeteria can then do is, almost simultaneously, reduce his own ASK to .99 whilst putting in a bid that is .01 greater than the second greatest bid. Example:
Asks: .52, 1.00
Bids: .50 (Frisbeeteria), .53 (YOU) .54 (Someone else)
Okay, so you increase your BID to .99 and Frisbeeteria reduces his ASK to .99 whilst simultaneously putting in a bid at .55, here's what is going to happen:
The .99 ASK and .99 BID are both highest and take precedence- Frisbeeteria sells the card for .99.
Frisbeeteria becomes the second-highest BID at .55, the middle on the .52 ASK becomes .54 (rounding).
Therefore, Frisbeeteria gains .45 (if nothing else happens) and buys and sells one copy of the card simultaneously. IOW, free money.
Why the $1.00 bid at all times? . The reason for the $1.00 bid to be sitting at all times is because it makes it easier for Frisbeeteria to watch the market. All he has to do is look at his value lists and see auctions that are in progress, which sounds like it would take a long time, but really doesn't because not too many EPIC cards are on the market at a given time. He can also open his list pages in different tabs and is extremely quick by now, can probably just glance at each page and know what (if anything) he has to do.
The big detriment to other players that doesn't even usually benefit Frisbeeteria is that none of them can do the .99 bid and essentially say they accept the middle price, or he's liable to swoop in and grab some free bank at the same time. This extends auctions by several minutes as players who are aware of this tactic must increase bidding by very small increments in order to avoid detection...just to make an otherwise standard trade. Even then, Frisbeeteria will just drop the ASK and do essentially the same thing if he feels like he is making enough on it.
However, that is only effective in a limited way because the middle won't be as big, as a result. The only way it would is if the lower bidding player cancels his/her bid completely enabling Frisbeeteria to increase his bid (whilst the top bidder is high bid-high ask locked) to the original asking price.
This obviously sucks for players because they can't just play the middle (with an eye towards actually buying) if they think the middle is an acceptable price. Frisbeeteria would have it that the player is making a mistake by creating such a big gap, which is true, but it's only a mistake because Frisbeeteria exists and has the card capacity to play both sides of almost every transactions. Also, Frisbeeteria doesn't care what does or doesn't suck for players, or he would not operate (as the rules fully permit him to do) in this manner.
There are only three things you can really do here:
1.) To the best of your ability, make sure Frisbeeteria is not online if he is involved in an auction and you are going to try this middle tactic. I don't know if Game Moderators can hide their online status, though, so if they can...he probably does.
2.) Just increase the bidding by extremely small amounts at a time and live with the fact that the auction is going to be extended by several minutes as you do the usual one-penny-over-the-other tactics. Just make sure to CHANGE your bids rather than cancel them, or Frisbeeteria can swoop in and middle it if there is enough value.*
*Either way, if he's involved, the worst-case scenario for him is buying a card for a very small fraction less than he is selling it for---he will profit in the end no matter what you do, unless you have counter-control cards...which most people don't...and Frisbeeteria is almost certainly aware and can check ownership to see if anyone who can do counter-control owns the card and could be a threat. Honestly, I've only ever seen a couple of people do Frisbeeteria's tactic in the first place, so this is unlikely.
3.) If you are going to middle, you might be able to if Frisbeeteria does not own the card, so check ownership. You'll become aware of a few other people who might drop one in on you and learn as you go, but certainly not as often or to the extent that Frisbeeteria does.
4.) Screw it, just don't play. If he wants the market, he can have it all to himself.
RESPECT:
Please note that this does not mean that Frisbeeteria should not be allowed to do this, as it is fully within how the markets operate and within the rules.
It sucks for players and makes them not want to participate, which is bad for the site, which Frisbeeteria is a Moderator of...but whatever. It doesn't break any rules whatsoever, but if I were personally a Moderator and participated in the game, my goal would be to play profitably in a fashion that doesn't take all of the fun out of it for, I expect, roughly half of the people who otherwise might want to participate.
Politically speaking, this is unchecked capitalism at work folks, so there you go! A company rises to the top eventually, that company ALWAYS wins at that point and uses its tremendous wealth and resources to control and oppress lesser competition. At best, you'll get the better of Frisbeeteria on the occasional position, but that's like taking a thimble of water out of the ocean.
But, from a playing perspective, you have to respect the ability and the cumulative weeks, perhaps even months, he has put into the game. When I say, "Cumulative," I mean if you add up the hours it turns into weeks or months. That level of obsession with acquiring virtual trading cards that have no real world value whatsoever and amassing as much fake money as possible that is good for nothing except the trading card game and never will be is nothing short of impressive.
We should be so lucky that he, as far as I know, is not in a position to apply that degree of cutthroat tactics to the entire world...we'd all be screwed.