Dealing with Frisbeeteria

[VicktoriaDiamond]

I think you just got fixated on her excessively^

Him. Frisbeeteria is male.

Oh, sorry! The "a" ending confused my latin mind^

[Barometria]

Someone sent me a telegram and asked if there was a way to mitigate Frisbeeteria as it pertains to game mechanics.

The answer is yes, but it would have an effect that several players (particularly those also in the LEGENDARY market) may not like.

Anyway, the easy, 'Solution,' (for lack of a better term) would simply be that one can not have a BID and an ASK going for the same type of card at the same time. That would be such that a person could only compete on one side or another until the current transaction in the market has closed. There are two ways that this could go:

LOCKED INTO A SIDE: The first way would be if the person was locked into either Bidding or Asking during the duration of that particular run on the market until it closes. They could continue to adjust the ASK side downwards, (if they started with an ASK) but they could not cancel their ASK and then decide to play on the Bidding side. If the person has a standing ASK/BID, then when the transaction goes to market, they could only change what they already have out there. (Make a higher bid or make a lower ask---depending on which side the person was floating.)

They could also remove the Ask/Bid (if it is not a match), but they would not be able to play the other side on that particular card until the current market transaction is complete.

Also, a player could no longer have Bid and Ask orders in place at the same time, simply because it is impossible to do that. Therefore, if they wanted to camp a side when the market is not currently in progress, they would have to choose one side or another. If they did this and there was a match, they would be locked into the side they were camping for the duration.

NOT LOCKED INTO A SIDE: With this, the person could remove an ASK that has not been locked into place with a matched Bid, however, they could then make a BID of their own, if they wanted to. The main advantage this would give someone is that they could get into a, 'Bidding War,' on a card that they already own. If there are more than two bidders, they could then withdraw their bid (if it is not the highest) and then drop an ASK on the other side that would lock the second highest bidder into the transaction. (This can be done as it stands now, anyway, with or without controlling both sides of the market)

There is also a third possibility which is to not allow a player to purchase a card that the player already has. However, many people enjoy collecting multiple copies of the same card, so that would be a HUGE detriment to a great many players and I considered not even mentioning it at all. Furthermore, it's completely impractical because many players already have copies of the same card. The two changes listed above could be effectuated without cancelling the holdings of any player, although, the market would probably need to temporarily close and start over from scratch.

[SherpDaWerp]

Him. Frisbeeteria is male.

Oh, sorry! The "a" ending confused my latin mind^

I absolutely love the implication that the "male" version of Frisbeeteria would be Frisbeeter... There's another name if Fris needs a puppet sometime.

Not every Epic card (and in fact, most Epic cards) are sold inbetween that 0.50-1.00 range anyway.
https://www.nationstates.net/page=deck/card=1342163
My card, for example. Alternatively, Epic cards that are truly worth more than that range mostly end up with different buyers/sellers:
https://www.nationstates.net/page=deck/card=1200504

Anyone who sells a card for lower than JV is not making a good move. So Fris's 0.50 bid is realistically making sure someone will always sell the card for at least junk value, instead of lowering the MV of the card.

On the other end - anyone who really wants the card can bid 0.55, or 0.60, or 0.70, or whatever. It actually helps people buy Epic cards, because it effectively sets a "ceiling" on the MV of the card, so that you can get most epic cards for a relatively OK price.

Personally, I don't actually see what the massive problem is here. Someone has put in extreme time to become the premier trader of Epic cards, and through doing so, they actually benefit the market. Less Epic cards get junked, so more copies are in circulation. An effective limit on the maximum price of the card is set, so you never have to pay too much.

The main reasoning I see here is spite... Someone got rich, and now their methods are unethical and bad? It's arguably worse to be a "farmer" and just spam issues for money than to use Fris's tactic of controlling the market. I wish I'd thought of it myself, to be honest.

[Barometria]

Anyone who sells a card for lower than JV is not making a good move. So Fris's 0.50 bid is realistically making sure someone will always sell the card for at least junk value, instead of lowering the MV of the card.

I assume that the MV of the card is based on some sort of algorithm that combines BIDS/ASKS and actual completed transactions and also somehow includes overall demand into the formula. In other words, the Market Value is completely meaningless and is only reliable as a barely-educated guess what you might be able to get for the card.

Furthermore, just as the Market Value can be artificially reduced, it can also be artificially pumped up.

Yes, I agree that the .50 sitting there makes sure that someone will wait an hour to get at least .50 when they could just junk it and get .50 immediately. The bid also does not make sure that the card will sell for at least the junk value because someone could still ASK below the junk value. IF SOMEONE DOES THIS THE CARD WOULD BE SOLD TO FRISBEETERIA FOR LESS THAN THE JUNK VALUE, unless other bidders were to notice this and act on it accordingly. Specifically, if I ask for 0.01 on a card Frisbee is camping with a .50 bid, and nobody else bids, I would end up selling it for .26.

On the other end - anyone who really wants the card can bid 0.55, or 0.60, or 0.70, or whatever. It actually helps people buy Epic cards, because it effectively sets a "ceiling" on the MV of the card, so that you can get most epic cards for a relatively OK price.

Personally, I don't actually see what the massive problem is here. Someone has put in extreme time to become the premier trader of Epic cards, and through doing so, they actually benefit the market. Less Epic cards get junked, so more copies are in circulation. An effective limit on the maximum price of the card is set, so you never have to pay too much.

The main reasoning I see here is spite... Someone got rich, and now their methods are unethical and bad? It's arguably worse to be a "farmer" and just spam issues for money than to use Fris's tactic of controlling the market. I wish I'd thought of it myself, to be honest.

1. Setting a ceiling is not consistent with free market. It also ensures Frisbee sells a card at a tremendous gain if the bidding gets high enough, all the while not losing his advantage on the BID side.

2. No rules are being broken. We disagree on whether or not Frisbee benefits the market. I maintain he does not for reasons already stated.

----THERE. IS. NO. SPITE. BECAUSE. I. DON'T. COLLECT. THE. CARDS. I'm also impressed with what Frisbeeteria has accomplished, as I have said several times. The methods are shrewd, not unethical, there is a difference. Doing anything that the game allows a person to do cannot be considered unethical as it is inherently within the rules. That's why bidding below Junk Value should similarly not be considered unethical. It's shrewd as hell, but it's perfectly within the confines of what the game permits. If the game did not want this, then the game could make it impossible to do so.

Anyway, the main goal of my OP, again, was just to try to teach people how to work within the confines of Frisbee's domination of the market to as great an extent as possible. I didn't say I was angry. I did not call the Frisbee a bad person, he's a cool dude for all I know. All I said was he is excellent at this game, is very shrewd in the way he plays...this is how you can best avoid his tactics. That's all.

[Elegarth]

All this for Fris? Lol. I beat Fris in Epic market whenever I feel like it, most of the time I think he is an excellent stabilizer for it. (edit to clarify: in cards I care for, but I ain't into epics)

But imagine if you all had to dealt with KK in the Legendary market.

This thread is amusing. It really seems like a fixated and somehow resented rant.

Good luck with the Epic Market!

[Palmira]

All this for Fris? Lol. I beat Fris in Epic market whenever I feel like it, most of the time I think he is an excellent stabilizer for it. (edit to clarify: in cards I care for, but I ain't into epics)

But imagine if you all had to dealt with KK in the Legendary market.

This thread is amusing. It really seems like a fixated and somehow resented rant.

Good luck with the Epic Market!

IMNSHO KK is the alpha in any auction he cares to get involved in since he seems to own half the cards but still wants to acquire more -- usually at the other bidder's expense. And don't get me started on ML.

[Fauzjhia]

its True to say that Koem Kab dominate the market, with his numberous puppets.
and when you think about it, you can't ever hope to defeat Koem Kab. unless you do the same thing and create an horde of 2000 puppets, all while keeping cards, in hope their owner will cte, so you can use them as transfer cards.

but I was wondering if the market activity is not generally limited to the big farmers.
Koem Kad are the northen lights are often the guy who sell me my cards. not complaining here,

[Barometria]

its True to say that Koem Kab dominate the market, with his numberous puppets.
and when you think about it, you can't ever hope to defeat Koem Kab. unless you do the same thing and create an horde of 2000 puppets, all while keeping cards, in hope their owner will cte, so you can use them as transfer cards.

but I was wondering if the market activity is not generally limited to the big farmers.
Koem Kad are the northen lights are often the guy who sell me my cards. not complaining here,

I honestly couldn’t tell you. The nice thing about the Epic Market is that it’s a simple matter of pulling a Legendary or two to be able to participate extensively. Between all of my puppets (15 or so) I pulled together a combined 200 EPIC cards and still had about 30-ish in combined bankroll before I sold off all Epic Cards. That was in two days, but I was mainly concerned with studying the Frisbee and learning the tactics. I find Frisbeeteria very interesting...that’s why I can’t help but be surprised that people think I am angry or jealous...it’s more intrigued.

Trying to help other players learn how to best deal with the presence of the biggest dog in the yard doesn’t mean I loathe canines.

In addition to the Legendary, it’s still possible to deal profitably in the Epic Market, even with the Frisbee there, but you have to be reasonably good and always attentive. It’s also obviously easier when the Frisbee is not on.

There are also more profitable tactics that can be used outside of the Epic market to generate wealth.

Single owner cards are very close to risk-free transfer, whether CTE or not. Just refresh the page within 30 seconds of the auction ending to make sure you are still the sole owner, then fire off the big bid with five seconds left. You’d have to get incredibly unlucky for someone to pull the card, notice the market and fire off a higher ASK in 65 seconds.

If someone overbids, just pull down your bid and you get their money instead.

I possess several single owner cards. TG me if you want to BORROW one. No charge. Only the .01 bank it would cost to return it to me.

[Barometria]

You don't win the game by being nice.

First of all, I humbly apologize for somehow missing your post, especially given the many posts that I responded to.

I don't know how you do, "Win the game," given that there is nothing within the rules specifying how the game is won or under what conditions the game has been won. I suppose each person just defines, "Winning," for himself or herself and plays accordingly. All of that is fine. There is no obligation of any sort to, "Play nicely."

And, for the record, I myself do a few cutthroat tactics, I just don't control both sides of the market at the same time except for to merely get a card on the market. If anyone outbids me, then I simply pull my offer on the Bidding side and only deal on the asking side. I do try to middle people, for sure, you have to...but not by doing transactions where I make a profit while also being involved on both sides in the ultimate result.

But, again, no rule against it.

It's also commendable if Frisbee is going to do this at all that he does it so openly. It would be much more difficult for players if he was controlling both sides under different accounts, I think we all know how quickly one can log in and get back to the market transaction. Maybe two-three seconds, tops.

*cough* Market Value means nothing *cough*

I agree. My point was simply to illustrate that my offer was extremely fair and, if nothing else, more beneficial for Frisbeeteria than it was for me.

You surely haven't met KK. He got a condemnation for being the best trader around.

My only experience in the Legendary market is straight up selling or quick turnaround propositions.

I've got no idea why any of Fris' tactics or success bother you (well, maybe beside the .50 JV bids). The only reasons I see it could bother you is if you yourself care about amassing huge amounts of bank or collect as many epics. In both of these cases, nothing that Fris does stops you from doing that. If anything, the .5 bids are beneficial to the market, by decreasing the market price (if epics are sold at .5), thus making the market more accessible; and not making amassing an epic collection any more expensive or inaccesible (only bids higher than JV would result in that) — if you really need an epic card, you're free to buy at at just a penny above it's junk value: You'll find that most card farmers can't be bothered to waste time selling a card unless the bids is higher than its JV.

Nothing prevents you from bidding .5 on epics as well. Once someone sells to Fris at .5, your bid will be the next to match.

I'd like to add that selling to Fris, even at .5, does not contribute to inflation, as opposed to junking the card, which can be considered positive. Also, you get it's value either way, but selling it increases the possibility of finding someone willing to bid a bit more for it.

All considered, I see no problem, only jealousy (although that might be too strong of a word).

If you like, for only the price of an epic (ironic, I know), you can get Frisbeeteria on Despicable Bidding Practices' Hall of Shame! Time limited offer! Grab it while you can!!

I do not use terms like, "Cutthroat," or, "Shrewd," because it, 'bothers,' me...I use them because they are the appropriate terms. I also transact in the market in ways that are shrewd and cutthroat, though not always. Also, virtually all of my transactions involve some sort of risk on my end. Frisbeeteria has created a risk free way to create wealth that is both impressive and fully within the rules. Morality is not a question, because there is no, "Moral," behavior as it applies to playing a game aside from to stay within whatever rules the game has. Since the game is fully electronic, absent hacking or devising computer programs, there is no way to, 'Cheat,' and Frisbeeteria is certainly not cheating.

Jealousy is definitely too strong a word, as I am mostly unconcerned with collecting cards. I'm primarily concerned with (hopefully) teaching people a tactic or two that they can then use.

Finally, I am concerned somewhat with others' enjoyment of the game. It's kind of like I enjoy playing a particular word board game and, absent extreme luck, I can destroy virtually any opponent with ease. There is a shortage of skilled players IRL that I know and I prefer to play the game in person. If I have someone who likes to play me and I just completely dominate them every time, sooner or later they will just refuse to play. I'll invent my own, "Rules," that only apply to me and that they do not know exist just for fun. For instance, I might say I cannot use more than two vowels in a word UNLESS adding to an existing word. I might say that I cannot use any triple points spaces whatsoever UNLESS it is the only possible way to make a word. I might decide that I must exchange once every seven turns and am required to throw away my highest tile.

Of course, I do think Frisbeeteria recognizes this to some extent because there are even more in the way of cutthroat tactics that he could be doing and is not doing. For one, he could essentially middle almost every single trade, even if only to gain a penny, if he really wanted to.***

***I actually tested this on a few things when I knew he was on. I have a pretty good idea what his range is because he does value efficiency to a large degree. Some gains are too small to be worthwhile to him.

[Barometria]

In the interests of complete disclosure, I shall let people know what I have been up to when I am on:

Basically, if someone lists an EPIC Card at .50, Frisbee is already on the BID side. Therefore, as I see this happen, I have been putting in a BID at .51. Here is what that accomplishes:

1.) The seller ALWAYS gets more than Junk value for the card.

2.) Someone outbids me, then I pull my bid.

3.) Nobody outbids me, in which event, I buy the card at .51 and trash it. I'm not worried about losing .01 as that is easily made up (and then some) through normal junking and trading.

On one occasion, The Frisbee sold me the card at .51 (dropped his ASK) whilst simultaneously buying the same card for .50 by virtue of the lower bid. He made a penny on the transaction with no change in the number of that particular card he had.

I guess so much for, "All you have to do is ASK for less than I am willing to," since he is apparently willing to ASK .51 in order to profit a penny at any given time.

My guess is he thought that would stop what I am doing, nope. I'm going to be a pain in his ass while also making sure the seller gets more than JV if I am on to do something about it.

OTHER THINGS

When you buy an EPIC card, unless you really like it and want to keep it forever and ever, I would suggest SIGNIFICANTLY undercutting Frisbee on the ASK side. If you have the bank to not be worried about it, you can also outbid him on the BID side.

For instance, if you buy a card for .51 or .52, then the next time you get the chance, you could just put an ASK in for .60, which substantially undercuts him. If the card is sold, then you make a little bit of a profit, so that's a good thing. It's not possible for a card to be sold by you for below your ASK value, only someone can have a lower ASK, in which case you keep your card. IOW, your ASK can sit there forever (which is Frisbee's game) and you'll never get less than that for the card.

Frisbee might decide to buy the card if you do this, that's fine. At least he won't be profiting on nearly every transaction anymore. It'll definitely not be worth his time to play the middle because he can only middle stuff that is between .51-.59, unless the bidding organically goes higher than your .60.

And, again, you can overbid him on the bid side with a .51 bid. That would require a pretty big bank commitment, though. Also, any card listed at .50 would go to you at .51 if there were no other bidders...so you have to be willing to accept that.

[Mikeswill]

Interestingly to me, I own, via pups, approximately 3,488 Epics and seldom encounter Fris when selling or buying them.

[Barometria]

Interestingly to me, I own, via pups, approximately 3,488 Epics and seldom encounter Fris when selling or buying them.

He's got BIds and Asks (simultaneously) on virtually every single EPIC that hits the market, so I do not understand how what you are saying is possible.

[Mikeswill]

Also,can you explain to me your recent purchase of a Legendary for 14.00 and then your subsequent sale of same 3 minutes later for 11.50? Eventually you received 12.50 but this tactic eludes me.

[Mikeswill]

He's got BIds and Asks (simultaneously) on virtually every single EPIC that hits the market, so I do not understand how what you are saying is possible.

Uhm, I Buy and Sell at 0.70

[Barometria]

Also,can you explain to me your recent purchase of a Legendary for 14.00 and then your subsequent sale of same 3 minutes later for 11.50? Eventually you received 12.50 but this tactic eludes me.

1.) You can go look at the market right now. There are 11 EPIC cards currently on the market. Frisbeeteria has a standing BID and ASK on every single one of them. Virtually the only time such is not the case is if he simply doesn't own the card. He'll BID .55 if he does not already own. I don't mind buying then trashing those for a .03-.06 loss, totally worth it.

2.) To answer your question, I sold it to myself. I have a few, 'Ally,' (read: puppet) nations that I don't mind having a little bank. If someone had outbid the 14.00, then Barometria would simply have pulled its bid. That didn't happen, so after Barometria bought it, I simply listed it for the standing BID price. In effect, I just made what I made on it, the $12.50, which is fine with me. MV is meaningless.

[Barometria]

Frisbee also likes the cheap "D0," cards with the cool graphics. I think he just personally likes them.

The good news is I can go to his cards page by first visiting his nation's page, then I can click to see what current auctions are ongoing. Naturally, I have been even outbidding him on these cards and throwing them away immediately after I get them.

The proletariat uprising is upon us.

[Barometria]

For the record, while your favorite card dealer and mine would have got this:

https://www.nationstates.net/page=deck/ ... 3/season=2

Well below market value (and someone else bid on it) I bid as much as I could without matching the second-highest ASK.

Additionally, I sent the owner of the card a TG telling him not to do that in the future as he could just junk the card for .50 AND that I will GIFT him the next Ultra-Rare card pulled by either myself or one of my puppets to make it a FAIR transaction.

[Alexander Dragos]

This is crazy. Why are you wasting your time on anger/hatred-driven goals (making someone unable to make profit)?
(No offense,) maybe your work is too stress-free, and you are looking forward some resentment in your free time(?)
We always want what we missing in our lives, I just can't get it why anyone would want bitterness.

[Recuecn]

Frisbee also likes the cheap "D0," cards with the cool graphics. I think he just personally likes them.

Pretty sure they're his puppets.

Incidentally there's also quite a thriving (small) market for any card with an animated flag, it's a pretty popular set to collect.

In regards to the rest of this thread, I can see the frustration of one player cornering the market for an entire rarity, and it's interesting to discuss/analyze his tactics, but I think the reason so many people react to this thread thinking that it's just a big rant, despite the fact that you keep saying you don't resent it, is that the length of this thread has gone on so far that this looks like a fixation at this point. Any time you reply to say 'no, I'm really not upset about it' it just adds to the perception that you're still stuck on the same topic and haven't moved on yet.

[Barometria]

This is crazy. Why are you wasting your time on anger/hatred-driven goals (making someone unable to make profit)?
(No offense,) maybe your work is too stress-free, and you are looking forward some resentment in your free time(?)
We always want what we missing in our lives, I just can't get it why anyone would want bitterness.

It has nothing to do with hatred or anger, I'm trying to make the marketplace more fair which benefits players with a less substantial bank who are just trying to make a little buck and earn cards.

You understand that MORE people are making MORE profit because what I am doing, right? Should I create a flow chart to demonstrate? If I bid .51, then the seller gets MORE than junk value. If they sell to Frisbee for .50, then the seller gets EXACTLY JUNK VALUE.

More people---more profit.

The concept really isn't that difficult.

Anyway, I'm willing to drop this whole thing if Frisbee is willing to switch up a few of his practices. I was going to say what, but he does not accept telegrams from me. I'm not going to telegram any of the puppets that I know of or use any of my puppets to contact him because that would be rude and defeat the intent of blocking me.

If he wants to know what my demands are, he can ask when he's ready.

Speaking of puppets....first post, eh?

[Barometria]

Frisbee also likes the cheap "D0," cards with the cool graphics. I think he just personally likes them.

Pretty sure they're his puppets.

Incidentally there's also quite a thriving (small) market for any card with an animated flag, it's a pretty popular set to collect.

In regards to the rest of this thread, I can see the frustration of one player cornering the market for an entire rarity, and it's interesting to discuss/analyze his tactics, but I think the reason so many people react to this thread thinking that it's just a big rant, despite the fact that you keep saying you don't resent it, is that the length of this thread has gone on so far that this looks like a fixation at this point. Any time you reply to say 'no, I'm really not upset about it' it just adds to the perception that you're still stuck on the same topic and haven't moved on yet.

Yeah, you can profit with speculative buying on the graphics cards, women cards and anime cards. There also tends to be a lot of quick middle sales in those markets because people will sometimes significantly overshoot the ASK, then you snipe the card, wait three minutes, sell it back to them at their BID price. That's what Frisbee does sometimes, except I'm only acting on one side of the market or another, not both simultaneously, unless someone later undercuts my ASK to try to take advantage of what I worked to set up. I have to match their ASK to my BID, but they still get to sell their card...which I then trash if it's a common, so whatever.

Well, if people accuse me of being upset, here's the problem:

1.) If I say I'm not, people can say what you said.

2.) If I don't address it, then people can say, "See, he must be upset, because he's not saying he's not."

So, whatever. YOU decide whether or not I am upset because you know my emotional experience better than I do. Mainly, I want Frisbee to switch all of his BIDS to .51. That way, the sellers of the cards will at least get more than JUNK value on those cards every time. If he will do that, I will never buy or sell and Epic card again unless I actually WANT the card or happen to pull one.

[Barometria]

Like this one:

https://www.nationstates.net/page=deck/ ... 0/season=2

So, I was on the BID and the ASK, but that's because I first bought the card at the middle price of .20. The other guy left his .37 bid hanging three minutes, so I listed the card at .37. (.17 insta-profit for me)

Then, some other dude came in and put an ASK of .03 hoping to catch the middle of .20 for a nice profit himself while leaving me hanging with a card I overpaid on and no buyers.

I countered by putting in a BID of .04, I did that to be nice and bring the price up to .04, I could have done .03 if I had wanted to. He only had one card that he owned, so he could not underask me again.

In the end, I sold for .37 and bought for .04. I then threw the card in the trash and got a penny back, so ultimately made .14 overall. Took longer than it should have, though. lol

[9003]

I am all for a case study on big players in fact I thought it was a very in depth analysis of a player making a large amount of money in a unique way. You did a good job explaining how if someone didn't want to fuel the capitalistic endever how they can not. However as of late it's become more and more of an attack on fris even if you say you don't mean it to be. That intent is most likely why fris the player is being petty towards you by squeezing you for .01 bank.

[Alexander Dragos]

I'm trying to make the marketplace more fair which benefits players with a less substantial bank who are just trying to make a little buck and earn cards.

The utopistic idea of making the world a better place for everyone is just never works (never worked in history).
It always ended up in bloodshed. When the oppressed gets power they become the oppressors.
The human race can't get over its animalistic emotions of revenge, hatred, and anger.

Speaking of puppets....first post, eh?

You got me!

[Barometria]

I am all for a case study on big players in fact I thought it was a very in depth analysis of a player making a large amount of money in a unique way. You did a good job explaining how if someone didn't want to fuel the capitalistic endever how they can not. However as of late it's become more and more of an attack on fris even if you say you don't mean it to be. That intent is most likely why fris the player is being petty towards you by squeezing you for .01 bank.

This will end if he increases all of his standing Epic BIDS to .51.