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Dealing with Frisbeeteria

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Barometria
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Dealing with Frisbeeteria

Postby Barometria » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:30 am

Greetings from Barometria!

For anyone who has participated in the EPIC card market, they will see a common name in almost all transactions: Frisbeeteria.

Frisbeeteria, while operating fully within the rules of the game and engaging in trade practices that are fairly transparent and fully allowed, is the single greatest menace in the entire Epic card market. He plays a virtually perfect game and dominates the market almost completely, much to the detriment of the enjoyment of other participants. The enjoyment of other participants is completely immaterial to him. That's not an insult, simply a fact. The reason that the enjoyment of other players is immaterial to him is because his goals are twofold:

A.) Collect as many EPIC cards as possible.

AND:

B.) Amass as much bank as possible.

Again, there is no question that he is playing the game completely fairly and completely within the rules. One might question, perhaps, a Game Moderator operating in such a way as to make the game less enjoyable for others, (trading cards only) but there is no question he has the right to do so.

I have spent a few days studying his tactics and offer the following conclusions:

1.) Bidding .50 on ALMOST all EPIC cards

His first tactic is to put in a bid of .50, the junk value, on almost all EPIC level cards, even ones he has several copies of. The reason for this is that some people will see that there is non-zero action on the market for that card, so they might list it at .50 hoping to get a few units over that by way of bidding. As often as not, the card simply ends up being sold to Frisbeeteria at .50, which benefits him, as it gives him greater control of the Epic card market.

Occasionally, Frisbeeteria will have a bid of greater than .50. This might happen because it is a card that he does not currently own or because he sees the MV as the card as justifying the bid. Again, people looking to gain quick bank will likely just unload the card if he is the only bidder.

There are only a few ways to negate this and those ways will only have limited impact on Frisbeeteria. Frisbeeteria has become strong enough, at this point, that nothing you will do is really going to impact him all that much.

1.) Someone with sufficient bank could bid .51 on all cards for which Frisbeeteria has bid .50, thereby qualifying for the first ASK of anything .51, or lower.

2.) DO NOT sell cards to Frisbeeteria at .50. If the market value is also .50, then you have the following options:

A.) Just junk it. Better nobody has it then Frisbeeteria get another copy.

B.) Sell it to an, "Ally," (i.e. puppet) at a higher price, such as .51. The effect of this will be that your card will still hit the market and that you would profit on any increased bid unless someone goes under on the ASK side, which they would really have no reason to do. Besides that, a lower ASK would match with Frisbeeteria's .50 bid anyway.

On this arrangement, there is basically no way to get the short end of it. Here are the possible results:

-Your nation sells the card to your other nation at the price, oh well.
-Your nation sells the card for greater than the price due to bidding, simply pull your other nation's bid as soon as someone outbids you.***
-You end up in a locked trade in which your nation sells the card at a slightly higher price while the second nation buys it at the bid price. You make a penny or two and your second nation buys a little lower, so you make a little and still have a copy of the card.
-Nobody can really undercut you on the ASK side because they would just match Frisbeeteria if they did. Even then, the fundamental mechanics are such that it is impossible to sell for less than your ASK, so you would still keep the card. Your second nation would also buy a copy of the card probably below junk value

***You could also theoretically use a third nation under your control to start an artificial bidding war (even if the third nation does buy, you're still selling to yourself) in order to drive up the price to whatever you think the nation not in your control will pay. I personally consider such a tactic unethical, so anytime I do this and my bidding nation is outbid, I just pull the bid and whatever happens happens.

Effectively, Frisbeeteria gets a bunch of cards and pays the same amount of money the seller would have been compensated just for throwing it away. Also, when successful, Frisbeeteria himself can just throw the card away (if he feels like it) without even taking a loss.

2.) Putting in a 1.00 ASK on ALMOST all EPIC cards in his possession, especially if he has multiples.

This is where Frisbeeteria's skill truly gets put on display, yes, skill.

One might wonder: What is the benefit of doing such bidding? There are several benefits:

1.) If the bidding were to somehow get that high, then Frisbeeteria simply sells the card for what is obviously a very good price.

2.) Frisbeeteria is also on the BID side of these cards usually at $0.50. Ultimately, this gives him the ability to take advantage (within the rules) of people trying to do what I call middling:

---What is Middling---

Okay, so suppose there is an ASK of $0.52 for a card and Frisbeeteria's ASK of $1.00. People are bidding on the card on the other side. Theoretically, since the bidding has to match in the middle if the ASK is lower (and ASKS can only be reduced, unless it is a new ask) a person could BID $0.99 and would therefore pay (.99+.52)/2 = .755, rounds up to .76 for the card. They might say, "Hey, this card is one that I don't mind paying .76 for, so let's do that!"

The next person cannot go a penny over because a $1.00 BID would match Frisbeeteria's 1.00 ASK and the highest ASK matches the highest BID.

However, what Frisbeeteria can then do is, almost simultaneously, reduce his own ASK to .99 whilst putting in a bid that is .01 greater than the second greatest bid. Example:

Asks: .52, 1.00

Bids: .50 (Frisbeeteria), .53 (YOU) .54 (Someone else)

Okay, so you increase your BID to .99 and Frisbeeteria reduces his ASK to .99 whilst simultaneously putting in a bid at .55, here's what is going to happen:

The .99 ASK and .99 BID are both highest and take precedence- Frisbeeteria sells the card for .99.

Frisbeeteria becomes the second-highest BID at .55, the middle on the .52 ASK becomes .54 (rounding).

Therefore, Frisbeeteria gains .45 (if nothing else happens) and buys and sells one copy of the card simultaneously. IOW, free money.

Why the $1.00 bid at all times? . The reason for the $1.00 bid to be sitting at all times is because it makes it easier for Frisbeeteria to watch the market. All he has to do is look at his value lists and see auctions that are in progress, which sounds like it would take a long time, but really doesn't because not too many EPIC cards are on the market at a given time. He can also open his list pages in different tabs and is extremely quick by now, can probably just glance at each page and know what (if anything) he has to do.

The big detriment to other players that doesn't even usually benefit Frisbeeteria is that none of them can do the .99 bid and essentially say they accept the middle price, or he's liable to swoop in and grab some free bank at the same time. This extends auctions by several minutes as players who are aware of this tactic must increase bidding by very small increments in order to avoid detection...just to make an otherwise standard trade. Even then, Frisbeeteria will just drop the ASK and do essentially the same thing if he feels like he is making enough on it.

However, that is only effective in a limited way because the middle won't be as big, as a result. The only way it would is if the lower bidding player cancels his/her bid completely enabling Frisbeeteria to increase his bid (whilst the top bidder is high bid-high ask locked) to the original asking price.

This obviously sucks for players because they can't just play the middle (with an eye towards actually buying) if they think the middle is an acceptable price. Frisbeeteria would have it that the player is making a mistake by creating such a big gap, which is true, but it's only a mistake because Frisbeeteria exists and has the card capacity to play both sides of almost every transactions. Also, Frisbeeteria doesn't care what does or doesn't suck for players, or he would not operate (as the rules fully permit him to do) in this manner.

There are only three things you can really do here:

1.) To the best of your ability, make sure Frisbeeteria is not online if he is involved in an auction and you are going to try this middle tactic. I don't know if Game Moderators can hide their online status, though, so if they can...he probably does.

2.) Just increase the bidding by extremely small amounts at a time and live with the fact that the auction is going to be extended by several minutes as you do the usual one-penny-over-the-other tactics. Just make sure to CHANGE your bids rather than cancel them, or Frisbeeteria can swoop in and middle it if there is enough value.*

*Either way, if he's involved, the worst-case scenario for him is buying a card for a very small fraction less than he is selling it for---he will profit in the end no matter what you do, unless you have counter-control cards...which most people don't...and Frisbeeteria is almost certainly aware and can check ownership to see if anyone who can do counter-control owns the card and could be a threat. Honestly, I've only ever seen a couple of people do Frisbeeteria's tactic in the first place, so this is unlikely.

3.) If you are going to middle, you might be able to if Frisbeeteria does not own the card, so check ownership. You'll become aware of a few other people who might drop one in on you and learn as you go, but certainly not as often or to the extent that Frisbeeteria does.

4.) Screw it, just don't play. If he wants the market, he can have it all to himself.

RESPECT:

Please note that this does not mean that Frisbeeteria should not be allowed to do this, as it is fully within how the markets operate and within the rules.

It sucks for players and makes them not want to participate, which is bad for the site, which Frisbeeteria is a Moderator of...but whatever. It doesn't break any rules whatsoever, but if I were personally a Moderator and participated in the game, my goal would be to play profitably in a fashion that doesn't take all of the fun out of it for, I expect, roughly half of the people who otherwise might want to participate.

Politically speaking, this is unchecked capitalism at work folks, so there you go! A company rises to the top eventually, that company ALWAYS wins at that point and uses its tremendous wealth and resources to control and oppress lesser competition. At best, you'll get the better of Frisbeeteria on the occasional position, but that's like taking a thimble of water out of the ocean.

But, from a playing perspective, you have to respect the ability and the cumulative weeks, perhaps even months, he has put into the game. When I say, "Cumulative," I mean if you add up the hours it turns into weeks or months. That level of obsession with acquiring virtual trading cards that have no real world value whatsoever and amassing as much fake money as possible that is good for nothing except the trading card game and never will be is nothing short of impressive.

We should be so lucky that he, as far as I know, is not in a position to apply that degree of cutthroat tactics to the entire world...we'd all be screwed.
Last edited by Barometria on Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Earthbound Immortal Squad
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Postby Earthbound Immortal Squad » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:36 am

This sounds far more like a rant than an analysis. Not sure if this is against the rules of slandering a player or not. My advice is stay out of the epic card market until you are either a much richer player or be extremely selective as players like Fris have 100's of bids and if you move on a small scale you are more likely to get what you want. Fris is playing by the rules and as much as I'm not a fan of their strategy you must respect it and not write things like this about it on a public forum.
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Barometria
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Postby Barometria » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:40 am

Earthbound Immortal Squad wrote:This sounds far more like a rant than an analysis. Not sure if this is against the rules of slandering a player or not. My advice is stay out of the epic card market until you are either a much richer player or be extremely selective as players like Fris have 100's of bids and if you move on a small scale you are more likely to get what you want. Fris is playing by the rules and as much as I'm not a fan of their strategy you must respect it and not write things like this about it on a public forum.


Literally the last section of what I wrote talks about how I respect his strategy. My post also specifically states, several times in fact, that he is playing within the rules.

It can, 'Read,' like anything you want it to read as when you don't read it.

ADDED: I'm also doing what I can to make the game better for people, as you will see in my post to follow on low risk bank transfers in the other thread.
Last edited by Barometria on Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:44 am

But I can't say I disagree with the post.
Barometria points are fair and exact.


When I played with 7 cards buy, frisbeetia was always present to take advantages of people who would sell my cards bellow my prices. he would easily put bid of 3, 5 since he know I would buy the cards at 15.

Edit : I avoid selling cards to frisbeetia as much as I can, for I know he does not have much love for the cards, for him its just business. So if there's only frisbeeteria on a epic, I just junk it.
Last edited by Fauzjhia on Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The Strangers Club
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Postby The Strangers Club » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:53 am

Yeah, Fris can be pretty scummy at times. One time I was bidding for a card that I wanted and accidentally bid too much and Fris couldn't even give me my bank back even though he has littlerly billions of bank. :oops:
SUPER DUPER PUNK!!!

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Barometria
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Postby Barometria » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:54 am

Fauzjhia wrote:But I can't say I disagree with the post.
Barometria points are fair and exact.


When I played with 7 cards buy, frisbeetia was always present to take advantages of people who would sell my cards bellow my prices. he would easily put bid of 3, 5 since he know I would buy the cards at 15.

Edit : I avoid selling cards to frisbeetia as much as I can, for I know he does not have much love for the cards, for him its just business. So if there's only frisbeeteria on a epic, I just junk it.


Thank you! I do mean it when I say he is impressive and I'm sure that his ability and the concepts that make it possible have useful RL applications.

I've basically spent the last couple days studying his tactics because the question that popped into my mind was, "Why would he buy and sell on every single bid?" Anyway, I amassed a fair bank and a ton of Epic cards just so that I could try to find ways to combat him and see him in action, study how he does things, and my OP is a simplified version of what I came up with. I also had to learn the full mechanics of the game, including the different ways that positions can be observed outside of just using the market screen.

Anyway, there is no beating him, there is only avoiding him as much as possible and not falling victim (lack of a better word) to his tactics...so that is what the OP explains how to do.

Also, I have since sold all my cards for that as well as one other reason, which will be detailed in the post on the money transfer thread.

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Barometria
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Postby Barometria » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:59 am

The Strangers Club wrote:Yeah, Fris can be pretty scummy at times. One time I was bidding for a card that I wanted and accidentally bid too much and Fris couldn't even give me my bank back even though he has littlerly billions of bank. :oops:


That's nothing!

I had a card that I had ONE of that he had zero of with a market value of .60. Frisbeeteria had a bid out of .55.

He had a card that he had eleven of that I pretended to want that also had a market value of .60. Again, he had eleven copies of this card.

I offered to match his offer of .55 on the card that he had zero of if he would, in exchange, sell me the card that he had eleven copies of also for .55. The answer was, "No," because he said it wasn't a good enough sale price for him on the card that he would be selling me.

That's why I used the word, "Cutthroat," his devotion to profit above all else is like nothing I've ever seen!

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Racoda
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Postby Racoda » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:40 pm

Barometria wrote:I offered to match his offer of .55 on the card that he had zero of if he would, in exchange, sell me the card that he had eleven copies of also for .55. The answer was, "No," because he said it wasn't a good enough sale price for him on the card that he would be selling me.

You don't win the game by being nice.
Barometria wrote:I had a card that I had ONE of that he had zero of with a market value of .60. Frisbeeteria had a bid out of .55.

*cough* Market Value means nothing *cough*
Barometria wrote:We should be so lucky that he, as far as I know, is not in a position to apply that degree of cutthroat tactics to the entire world...we'd all be screwed.

Barometria wrote:That's why I used the word, "Cutthroat," his devotion to profit above all else is like nothing I've ever seen!

You surely haven't met KK. He got a condemnation for being the best trader around.

Barometria wrote:Frisbeeteria, while operating fully within the rules of the game and engaging in trade practices that are fairly transparent and fully allowed, is the single greatest menace in the entire Epic card market. He plays a virtually perfect game and dominates the market almost completely, much to the detriment of the enjoyment of other participants. The enjoyment of other participants is completely immaterial to him. That's not an insult, simply a fact. The reason that the enjoyment of other players is immaterial to him is because his goals are twofold:

A.) Collect as many EPIC cards as possible.

AND:

B.) Amass as much bank as possible.
(...)
We should be so lucky that he, as far as I know, is not in a position to apply that degree of cutthroat tactics to the entire world...we'd all be screwed.


I've got no idea why any of Fris' tactics or success bother you (well, maybe beside the .50 JV bids). The only reasons I see it could bother you is if you yourself care about amassing huge amounts of bank or collect as many epics. In both of these cases, nothing that Fris does stops you from doing that. If anything, the .5 bids are beneficial to the market, by decreasing the market price (if epics are sold at .5), thus making the market more accessible; and not making amassing an epic collection any more expensive or inaccesible (only bids higher than JV would result in that) — if you really need an epic card, you're free to buy at at just a penny above it's junk value: You'll find that most card farmers can't be bothered to waste time selling a card unless the bids is higher than its JV.

Nothing prevents you from bidding .5 on epics as well. Once someone sells to Fris at .5, your bid will be the next to match.

I'd like to add that selling to Fris, even at .5, does not contribute to inflation, as opposed to junking the card, which can be considered positive. Also, you get it's value either way, but selling it increases the possibility of finding someone willing to bid a bit more for it.

All considered, I see no problem, only jealousy (although that might be too strong of a word).

If you like, for only the price of an epic (ironic, I know), you can get Frisbeeteria on Despicable Bidding Practices' Hall of Shame! Time limited offer! Grab it while you can!!

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Dr Neela Rasgotra
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Postby Dr Neela Rasgotra » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:40 pm

Maybe he got enough of people, and by this way he can be a good moderator, since he can decide objectively on specific matters (without emotions - which i think can be good).
Once i saw a post about mad PM's from Frisbeeteria towards another player, it was interesting. (I just searched for this to explain my first sentence above: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=467220&hilit=frisbeeteria)

But I think this thing is only a problem if you want to CONTROL the epic market as well, since he wont pay more than .55 for an epic.
So, if you just want an epic (and not mass epics for business reasons) then you can just bid .6, and it'll be yours; you just have to be patient until someone sells it for you.
Last edited by Dr Neela Rasgotra on Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Santheres
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Postby Santheres » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:51 pm

The Strangers Club wrote:Yeah, Fris can be pretty scummy at times. One time I was bidding for a card that I wanted and accidentally bid too much and Fris couldn't even give me my bank back even though he has littlerly billions of bank. :oops:


You can criticize Fris' approach to the game if you'd like, but calling them as a player "pretty scummy" is borderline flaming. Please keep things on a more civil level.
Last edited by Santheres on Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tarockanien
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Postby Tarockanien » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:55 pm

Barometria wrote:We should be so lucky that he, as far as I know, is not in a position to apply that degree of cutthroat tactics to the entire world...we'd all be screwed.

I wouldn´t be worried about this - in the real world either he/she would have to fight off plenty of other sharks,and/or some annoyed or frustrated person would probably shoot him/her down... ;)

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Zomoponin
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Postby Zomoponin » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:56 pm

But he is a mod, and the mods are good, so :blink:

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Postby Catsfern » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:58 pm

Sounds like just another enthusiastic collector to me, as someone who has collected 100 copies of my own nations card I fully respect another collector doing their thing.
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Postby Bruxxa » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:01 pm

Zomoponin wrote:But he is a mod, and the mods are good, so :blink:

Saying a mod is good is like saying a president is good. The term is subjective, and even if they are relatively "good", they still have their flaws. Therefore, it is my opinion that one should judge someone based on the overwhelming majority of their deeds. I personally get very frustrated with fris, but I do not act out on this.
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Barometria
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Postby Barometria » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:11 pm

Dr Neela Rasgotra wrote:Maybe he got enough of people, and by this way he can be a good moderator, since he can decide objectively on specific matters (without emotions - which i think can be good).
Once i saw a post about mad PM's from Frisbeeteria towards another player, it was interesting. (I just searched for this to explain my first sentence above: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=467220&hilit=frisbeeteria)

But I think this thing is only a problem if you want to CONTROL the epic market as well, since he wont pay more than .55 for an epic.
So, if you just want an epic (and not mass epics for business reasons) then you can just bid .6, and it'll be yours; you just have to be patient until someone sells it for you.


That's not so much the point. It's mainly market control as it affects everyday trades, particularly for those who just wish to accumulate cards. I don't have any desire for EPIC cards or to control the market for EPIC cards. The main problem for players is that they have limited bank and Frisbeeteria gets them for pennies at every turn, when possible.

Also, having him operate also kind of restricts free bidding because of his dominance on the ASK side...like I said, that's where he is most brilliant. It took me awhile to figure out the point of it. It's mainly so he has an easy way to see what action is in progress and he already knows he owns a copy of the card.

One other thing that I didn't mention is that the market could be flooded with so many EPIC cards at one time that it would make it difficult for him to keep track. Of course, you have to already have a ton of Epic cards to do that. When there are only a few on the market at once, he can see where he needs to act pretty quickly.

I have no opinion of him as a Moderator as I have not engaged with him, or anyone else really, in that respect.

To your last point: You would probably get away with that until such time that there was an active auction because it would escape Frisbeeteria's attention until then. Of course, he could THEORETICALLY always put in an ASK for .60 and then use a puppet to artificially drive up bidding then drop the puppet out of the running when he doesn't think he'll get anything else off the person. If he says he does not do that tactic, I will accept it as truth as I do not have any proof, and even if I did, it's fully within the rules anyway.

As far as the post you linked, my counter would be Frisbeeteria controls both sides of the market, so who the hell is he to question someone else's tactics? That's laughable. Most of his bids are also AT JUNK VALUE, which is barely an improvement. His overall position is strengthened while the other players wait an hour to get the same amount of bank. Nobody can even UNDERASK on Epic to get another card to a puppet nation for less than the GIFT price because Frisbeeteria's JUNK VALUE BID blocks even doing that. He also gets to benefit from anyone who mistakenly ASKS Less than JUNK VALUE and I seriously doubt he is inclined to refund the difference, even in the case of a genuine mistake.

And look, that's all just because it is generally accepted as bad practice to bid less than junk value anyway. If we can use the, "There's no rule that actually says..." defense in Frisbeeteria's favor, which I do, then that same rule applies to anyone else. Anything less is hypocritical. If the game did not mean for a player to be able to bid less than Junk Value, then the game could simply make such not possible.
Last edited by Barometria on Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Ard al Islam
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Postby Ard al Islam » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:22 pm

Zomoponin wrote:But he is a mod, and the mods are good, so :blink:

Yes, all the mods are good but one. One who kinda makes the others look really bad. I won't name him/her, because then he/she might ban/block me, but hey, if that happens, then that's just proving my point.
Last edited by Ard al Islam on Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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VicktoriaDiamond
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Postby VicktoriaDiamond » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:27 pm

Barometria wrote:
Dr Neela Rasgotra wrote:Maybe he got enough of people, and by this way he can be a good moderator, since he can decide objectively on specific matters (without emotions - which i think can be good).
Once i saw a post about mad PM's from Frisbeeteria towards another player, it was interesting. (I just searched for this to explain my first sentence above: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=467220&hilit=frisbeeteria)

As far as the post you linked, my counter would be Frisbeeteria controls both sides of the market, so who the hell is he to question someone else's tactics? That's laughable. Most of his bids are also AT JUNK VALUE, which is barely an improvement.

And look, that's all just because it is generally accepted as bad practice to bid less than junk value anyway. If we can use the, "There's no rule that actually says..." defense in Frisbeeteria's favor, which I do, then that same rule applies to anyone else. Anything less is hypocritical. If the game did not mean for a player to be able to bid less than Junk Value, then the game could simply make such not possible.

That post from Frisbeeteria is 1 year old, maybe Dr. Rasgotra is right, and Frisbeeteria is just got enough of people, and does not care anymore.^
It happens a lot of times amongst people who are in contact with customers every day.

I think the best strategy is to bid .75
+.25 is not that much if you want them epics and it will make Frisbeeteria thinking about buying it off for 0.76 (knocking you off), or just lower her price to .75


Edit:
Or she just wants to make a bigger bank for future investments (maybe into her own card[s]), but she does not have enormous puppet fleet for card farming.
Last edited by VicktoriaDiamond on Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Barometria
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Postby Barometria » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:32 pm

Here's a short thread:

viewtopic.php?f=42&t=480276

Noah's Second Country was looking for a few particular cards and posted a thread linking to the ones he wanted while encouraging others to do the same. Any players who wanted to do it would, presumably, TG one another and try to come up with deals. Frisbeeteria dismisses the thread and directs Noah's Second Country:

We've got this perfectly adequate Bid / Ask system that works for people who can't be bothered reading the forums. Give it a try.


To the Bid/Ask system and suggests he give it a try.

WHY?

It is to Frisbeeteria's benefit to discourage any private dealmaking because he is an extremely skilled player who does control and can control both sides of the market. Of course he doesn't want people striking deals behind the scenes. He even suggests Noah's Second Country, "Give it a Try," on the bid/ask system, even though any bid/ask amounts are LISTED ON THE EXACT PAGES NOAH'S SECOND COUNTRY LINKS TO. Noah obviously is familiar with the Bid/Ask system and is an extremely adept trader in his own right.

Secondly, maybe I would like to deal directly with Noah's Second Country instead of the open market, which is essentially what NSC was promoting people to do. I haven't dealt with him much at all, but I already know I would prefer to deal with him than Frisbeeteria...that's for sure. Again, Frisbeeteria basically dismisses the thread as pointless and directs to the market...something Frisbeeteria controls.

THIRD, the market is NOT A NEGOTIATION. It's just a market. I think the point of Noah's Second Country's post was that people can get together privately and agree on a starting BID/ASK amount on both sides of the equation. Of course, Frisbeeteria would discourage this because such an arrangement puts him in a situation where it is tougher for him to make a profit.

FINALLY, absent Frisbeeteria making a note in that post that he was speaking in a personal, and not Moderation, capacity...how could we know? Is he giving an opinion or a soft warning not to continue posting in that thread? I'm not making an accusation, I'm just asking an honest question because the answer is not clear to me.

In any case, his entire post dismisses NSC's idea and it dismisses it because that idea would be bad for Frisbeeteria were it to become popular. That's especially true in the EPIC market. Take this one from NSC's links:

https://www.nationstates.net/page=deck/ ... 6/season=2

Okay, so if two people agree to ASK/BUY both at 0.75, that diminishes Frisbeeteria's ability to cut them off on a good middle value (for Frisbeeteria) if someone else starts bidding. Say the BID side goes:

.75
.76
.77
.99

Okay, so Frisbeeteria can now cut off the BID side by ASKING .99 on his copy and buy the other copy for .77. That's pretty good, but the middle becomes much better if the bidding starts lower than that and someone does the same thing.

Therefore, people making private arrangements is bad for Frisbeeteria and it makes sense that he would discourage any such talk...WHICH HE VERY CLEARLY DID IN THAT POST IN THE LINKED THREAD.

Shrewd, but again, smart as hell and completely within the rules.
Last edited by Barometria on Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Barometria
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Postby Barometria » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:38 pm

VicktoriaDiamond wrote:That post from Frisbeeteria is 1 year old, maybe Dr. Rasgotra is right, and Frisbeeteria is just got enough of people, and does not care anymore.^
It happens a lot of times amongst people who are in contact with customers every day.

I think the best strategy is to bid .75
+.25 is not that much if you want them epics and it will make Frisbeeteria thinking about buying it off for 0.76 (knocking you off), or just lower her price to .75


Edit:
Or she just wants to make a bigger bank for future investments (maybe into her own card[s]), but she does not have enormous puppet fleet for card farming.


The best strategy is just to not play the EPIC market because virtually all possible actions make Frisbeeteria stronger, and once stronger, will then do the same exact thing on the LEGENDARY market almost inevitably. I'd encourage people to just get out of the market almost entirely, or only ask for cards they want privately.

If Frisbeeteria wants to control the market completely, then let Frisbeeteria be the only one in the market. The shrewdness of the tactics to accomplish a state of affairs that has absolutely zero real world value, not to mention the time spent to do this, is honestly staggering. I don't want to venture into the realm of personal insult, so I will simply say that it is an interesting case study and anyone who would spend so much time doing this one thing has my sympathy.

EDIT: Also, to my post above this one. You can click on the bottom of a card info page and telegram them directly if you want to make an offer on a card of theirs you want. Frisbeeteria has a TON of cards, for example, hundreds of pages of cards. You could theoretically send a telegram to Frisbeeteria and ask about any cards you might like.***

***That Frisbeeteria did not dispense with this advice (how to see the list of owners) is of exactly zero surprise.
Last edited by Barometria on Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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VicktoriaDiamond
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Postby VicktoriaDiamond » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:44 pm

I think you just got fixated on her excessively^
I don't think it is a big deal, especially on the card you just linked:
" https://www.nationstates.net/page=deck/ ... _history=1 "
On its trades history you can see; anyone can get that epic for not even much price!

I think you should just let this feeling go, and concentrate on some themed collections for example. There are a lot of dimensions how one can enjoy the trading card game! ❤
Last edited by VicktoriaDiamond on Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Barometria
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Postby Barometria » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:48 pm

VicktoriaDiamond wrote:I think you just got fixated on her excessively^
I don't hink it is a big deal, especially on the card you just linked:
" https://www.nationstates.net/page=deck/ ... _history=1 "
On its trades history you can see; anyone can get that epic for not even much price!

I think you should just let this feeling go, and concentrate on some themed collections for example. There are a lot of dimensions how one can enjoy the trading card game! ❤


You seem to post under the impression that I have any intention to collect anything, your assumption is mistaken. I am not participating in the card game at all, except to sell LEGENDARY cards and middle Frisbeeteria on cards that Frisbeeteria does not have whenever I can so I can immediately JUNK those cards. Better they not exist than Frisbeeteria get them.

I just picked a random Epic Card so I could show the example.

The only cards I am collecting are low value cards where I am the only owner so I can lend them out to folks who want to do low risk bank transfers from one puppet to another. Aside from that, I have no desire to keep any cards and actually never did. I just had to look like a legitimate collector to interact with Frisbeeteria behind the scenes to try to learn things.

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Santheres
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Santheres » Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:11 pm

Ard al Islam wrote:
Zomoponin wrote:But he is a mod, and the mods are good, so :blink:

Yes, all the mods are good but one. One who kinda makes the others look really bad. I won't name him/her, because then he/she might ban/block me, but hey, if that happens, then that's just proving my point.


This is off-topic; please refrain. If you have legitimate complaints about Moderation, there's a process for raising those which you should use.

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Frisbeeteria
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Founded: Dec 16, 2003
Anarchy

Postby Frisbeeteria » Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:20 pm

This whole thread is vastly amusing. My "strategy" can be easily defeated. All you have to do is pay more for cards than I'm willing to pay, and/or sell for less than I'm asking. Players do that all day, every day. I don't sit here monitoring sales 24/7/365. It ain't hard to trade Epics without me being involved.

VicktoriaDiamond wrote:I think you just got fixated on her excessively^

Him. Frisbeeteria is male.

Barometria wrote:***That Frisbeeteria did not dispense with this advice (how to see the list of owners) is of exactly zero surprise.

Beg pardon? I'm somehow expected to point out an entirely visible button on the assumption that people playing the game can't see the button? I'm astonished that you find this astonishing. I play the game. I have no obligation or interest in holding other peoples' hands and walking them through the obvious stuff.

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Barometria
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Postby Barometria » Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:45 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:Beg pardon? I'm somehow expected to point out an entirely visible button on the assumption that people playing the game can't see the button? I'm astonished that you find this astonishing. I play the game. I have no obligation or interest in holding other peoples' hands and walking them through the obvious stuff.


Sure. You assumed he didn’t know how the Ask/Bid market works, so why would you assume he understands the mechanics of the owners button?

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Barometria
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Postby Barometria » Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:57 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:This whole thread is vastly amusing. My "strategy" can be easily defeated. All you have to do is pay more for cards than I'm willing to pay, and/or sell for less than I'm asking.


That would be true if you didn't have the capability to act on both sides of the market, or at a minimum, did not exert partial control over the market at all times. As it stands, both the seller and the buyer have to be doing both of those things, simultaneously, and also in a way that doesn't create a middle opportunity that you consider worth your time to buy and sell simultaneously in order to make a profit.

You could theoretically do it almost constantly for $0.01 gain, if you wanted to, but it wouldn't be worth your time or attention.

Further, the, "Free market," also has to operate within your preset confines (Generally ASK of $.99, or below and BID of .51, or greater) to avoid having to deal with you.

Anyway, don't get the impression that I'm angry with you, because I'm not. I cannot emphasize enough that you know how to play the game extremely well, as I've stated several times throughout this thread. It's just done in a way that causes the game to somewhat not be as fun as it could be for others, but as you correctly point out, that's not your responsibility unless you feel compelled to make it so.

My goal with my opening post was simply to detail how you can be avoided as best as possible, because what you are doing is more advanced than how most people are going to know how to play. You're the biggest threat in the entire EPIC market. That was your goal and you have succeeded.

That said, trying to help other players work around you as best as possible does not make me angry with you, it just means I want to help out players who may not have as much skill as you do.

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