AMW Applications Centre

[Maxen von Bismarck]

Christ, I feel like we just dodged a bullet! I was just flipping down the screen and 'ka-pow!' Moderator Red, nothing quite like that except perhaps... Nope, nothing quite like it.

Yeah, join the IRC (even though I'm not on and probably won't be tonight!) because we're awesome and shizzle.

(All use of the word 'shizzle' is attributed to Unreal.)

Cause you suck, that's why you won't let Ian and myself grace your with out presence! LOL.

Seriously, though, Iskarajan is as in-depth of a claim as I have seen. I like the application, and, as such, do believe you will be a valued member of the group.

I suppose it brings up a valuable ethical dilemma on whether or not we have the ability to deny the application. Though, not to put a too fine of point on it, the application is fine.

[Walmington on Sea]

I'm not sure that Max's assessment of the economies of Modravia, Beddgelert, and Byzantium is completely fair... and really, the Shield's stuff may be old-fashioned, but that doesn't make it reliable

Iskarajan looks good, to me. I don't really see any reason to oppose this player's entry to AMW.

In search of cold and coastline, of course there's most of Canada (excepting the Maritimes and a sparsely-peopled bit of eastern Quebec), and along side it Alaska and northern parts of the US; and there's also probably Scandinavia since I'm sure anyone who has applied there has subsequently imploded; and northern Japan, though that tends to be the less populated part (of course the whole thing's unclaimed, I'm just noting that it's not all especially cold), and now of course there's Korea, since I moved Dra-pol. Korea certainly has chilly winters, plenty of coastline, and in all just over seventy million people.

On the other hand, I seem to have something of a gift. Last time I raised the prospect of incorporating New England, someone immediately came along intent on making a claim there, and I ended up settling for New Brunswick. Of course that didn't last, where as hopefully Iskarajan will be around for the long-haul, so in that sense I'd not mind letting it go this time.

Having said that, I think that I'd like to take it, anyway!

Still, I certainly wouldn't mind bordering Iskarajan in Canada and -if he wants the increased population, more easy Atlantic access, and proximity to more than one nation- also the New England/New York border area.

Well, enough almost arbitrary suggestions from me, I'd like to formalise Walmington's claim to New England (Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Connecticut), which according to Wikipedia (and more reliable sources shall be consulted in due course) covers 186,458.8 km² and contains 14,429,72 people. This will leave Walmington's population just above 17 million at home and 19.5 million in the whole Empire.

I've been a little concerned about what may happen if Acadzia departs AMW, as has seemed a possibility of late, and I've been thinking that Plan B may simply entail New Foundland serving as a surrogate Britain to WoS-at-large (I'd also considered alternatives like claiming Iceland or even Ireland to ensure that a British homeland endures, but it seems a tad awkward to do that), with the Walmingtonians pulling a reverse-viking job on trans-Atlantic pioneering, but all in all I'll feel a little more 'secure' with the somewhat expanded claim, while still keeping Walmington as a relatively small nation. I'll also try to be a bit more active, especially if we're getting one or two new arrivals in the Americas these days.

[The Crooked Beat]

Oh no! I'm afraid I went and suggested the US Northeast to Iskarajan without realizing that Walmington had his eye on it!

*Curses own tactlessness*

Between Atlantic Canada, New England, and New York/New Jersey/Pennsylvania, though, it looks like there should be enough for everybody. Right?


At least, it looks like, if Iskarajan does decide to go for New York, PA, MD, NJ and DE, the difference between that and the ideal 60-million mark could, it seems, be made-up with either Ontario, or perhaps Ohio, Indiana and Michigan. Just think, you could return Detroit to its former glory!

A Walmingtonian New England just seems too interesting to pass up. Just imagine Boston's tea culture! And no doubt the accent would be a bit different.

As for no Acadzia, well, let's hope that doesn't happen, but if it does, and it seems increasingly likely, I'm convinced that we'll have no shortage of applicants for the UK. I don't suppose anyone still has a line to Gurg? Maybe Quinntonia could even slip in to fill that post. Or maybe Walmingtonians could even descend from French Hugenots? Hmph. Certainly if Walmington wants to claim Iceland or Ireland, I grant my assent.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to register a formal claim on Morocco, Madeira, Reunion and the Prince Edward Islands at least. What I can't decide on, though, is whether to take either Portugal or the rest of Sri Lanka or both or neither. Any thoughts?

[Chrinthanium]

Eh

On the offsite, the claim is being formalized for Iskarajan to take the Northeastern US.

[Maxen von Bismarck]

Since the Northeast looks comfortably messed up, I'd be more than willing to ignore it for the time being and support TCB's new-new-claim to North Africa & Co. Also, go with Portugal.

And Walmy! I'm sticking with my quick and dirty stereotyping.

[Chrinthanium]

Actually, if Walmington takes New England as defined as Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut that would total 14,444,865 to his claim.

Then Iskarajan can take New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Delaware and District of Columbia, to total 48,148,527. To attain about 60 million, he could take Ohio, which would give him a population of 59,685,031. Or, he could take Ontario, which would bring the claim to 61,359,194. So, while he loses several US States, he doesn't loose much population. It then creates one, continuous, inhabited landmass from Walmington on Sea to Virginia.

[Iskarajan]

As I said on the offsite, I don't want to tread on Walmingtonian toes - I'm happy to cede New England and pick up the loss elsewhere. It would make for interesting politics, and make a fair deal of sense, if parts of New England had actually been Iskaran in the past - certainly they'd have been in Iskarajan's economic sphere prior to the Walmingtonian colonization!

The more-or-less-pinned-down-barring-other-problems area (New York, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Washington DC) has a population of 48,145,584; as Chrin says, either Ontario or Ohio could be profitably added to that ... or it could be kept as is. Given a choice between Ohio and Ontario, I'd probably pick Ontario. Ontario seems more suitable than Ohio, in that it could easily be a hinterland organized around trading posts on the Great Lakes (ie, by shipping trade); it'd also give Iskarajan the possibility of ethnic conflict with non-ethnically-Iskaran natives in their economic and political sphere of control. Plus it'd give me access to uranium mines for entirely peaceful, non-weaponized and friendly ventures of benefit to the global community, as well as a source of copper (historically important) that isn't marked hic sunt dracones. It seems that North America has no sources of tin to make bronze at all, however, so Iskarajan would historically be a late neolithic and chalcolithic society - as North America was historically - until the arrival of Europeans. I can work with that.

Potential downsides are that neither are exactly coastal, which somewhat alters the character of the nation; and that Ontario in particular represents a lot of manufacturing and mining that might make Iskarajan unfairly competitive with more established AMWers ... I'm a bit hazy on the state of AMW's global economy, though. But given that Iskarajan will have real trouble as a political or military power (given its fractious nature), economic strength seems a fair trade-off.

Random questions I'd like to raise would be the possibility of pre-Colombian trans-Atlantic contact - either by Iskaran sailors traveling east or viking explorers traveling west (I know you have Varangians, but given the lack of Scandinavians they may in fact be Rus of some description), early Irish monks, very lost Punic traders, or whatnot. And also about what time European explorers might have introduced South American crops - most importantly the potato - to North America. I'd imagine the Iskarans could easily have gone all the way up and down the eastern seaboard and into the Gulf, but getting them all the way to Peru to pick up some potatoes is a bit of a stretch.

[Modravia]

I'm going to rewrite my history a little to feature the Rus' and Varangians more prominently. Given that, like their Scandinavian brethren, they were avid boat-people and navigators, a pre-Columbian contact between them and your people isn't that far-fetched.

[Walmington on Sea]

Certainly I don't want to make things (too ) difficult for newcomers. I wonder if you could combine parts of Ontario and Quebec to pretty much hog the James, Hudson and Ungava bay coasts and the St.Lawrence river with its direct sea access, in addition to the NY-etc. coastline, and also in doing so get more of the 'cold' areas mentioned?

I suppose it's the vast inland between that doesn't fit too well? ((Wonders if it would be crazy to suggest a divided state, connected by sea, with a Walmington colonial intrusion in the middle of it)) Also, I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned yet that we let people move populations around within their own claim, so long as a million people aren't plonked into a desert without some explanation of where their water's coming from. Potentially some of the inland area could be used for nothing more than a few mines, and all the action set on the coasts, with miners even being flown/train...ed home every week by the companies, emphasising the coastal mindset of the nation.

In any case I'm certainly willing to intertwine Walmingtonian and Iskarajan histories, and identify however much Walmingtonian territory you like as former Iskarajan soil. I mean potentially all the coastline from the eastern edge of Manitoba to Virginia (or beyond, if Lorraine's agreeable!) may have been Iskarajan or related territory before we turned up!

For the record, I don't mind Walmington being heavily outnumbered and partially surrounded if it comes to it (such as in making Iskarajan bigger than intended in order to get whatever is sought), as that fits perfectly well with the under-dog/siege mentality the Walmingtonians maintain despite having made themselves a global colonial force. It just gives all the more reason for maintaining the Home Guard

Regarding possible 'pre-Colombian' trans-Atlantic contact, of course as things stand Walmington itself is technically pre-Colombian, Godfrey arriving aboard the St.Aldhelm in 1481 (we just didn't bother to tell anyone about it, because our cod! Ours!). I've made sort of non-committal references in the past to Madog ab Owain Gwynedd and the rather improbable 'Welsh Indians' theory, with Walmingtonians back to Sir Harold Wendsleybury having been sent on expeditions to find such people in North America, with dubious results. I think we're a bit light on Scandinavians for now, but there's still plenty of other possibilites, indeed. Oh, such as Modravia's ninjaesque suggestion.

[Iskarajan]

With regards to bits of Quebec; it could work. I'll have a look at the riverine geography of the region some more.

[edit] Having looked at a map of the St Lawrence watershed, you are absolutely right. That would totally work. If I took Quebec south of the St. Lawrence to the border and north to the edge of the watershed, and similarly the Great Lakes watershed plus a bit in Ontario, it'd fit really well. I'd have to do some rather more in-depth work with censuses and county borders and suchlike, but it would be totally worth it.

Plus you'd get to quail in abject terror at Iskaran sea-reavers sailing along your coast. From the fury of the Northmen, O Lord, deliver us! Walmingtonian-Iskaran rivalry would be intense, bitter, and probably ugly. Far from merely fighting among themselves, the Iskarans would probably be on whatever side of the Great War the Walmingtonians weren't (I'm having a bit of trouble locating exactly which side that was, but I imagine a chance to strike a blow at the Walmingtonian foe would supercede ideology). If you like the idea of Walmington having a "besieged" mentality, I'm sure the Iskarans would be more than happy to oblige!

I did however have another interesting idea ...

Reading Rivaro's factbook I noticed that he has horses and blacksmithing in Mexico in 500 AD ... when as far as I know all pre-Colombian metallurgy was worked cold, and horses were introduced by the Europeans. But! But! But! It turns out that Equus ferus, the basic wild horse that was domesticated in Central Asia or wherever, originated in North America, and (one) species of North American horse was genetically identical to that later domesticated in Europe. Unfortunately for the horses of North America, they hadn't spent tens of thousands of years learning to run away from humans, and got themselves slaughtered and eaten in short order around 12,000 BC in real life.

Now, the AMW rules say no extinct species, so we certainly won't see giant ground sloths in Colombie-Brittanique ... but horses aren't extinct! We could very easily posit that the North American wild horse was actually domesticated! In one fell equine swoop the Americas gain a means of transport, a beast of burden, and a useful source of food (this is particularly important, of course, for llama-deficient North America). With a suitable large mammal for traction and transport, society in the Americas would have developed at a faster pace than it did with only human muscle power (and, if you believe Marvin Harris, humans as the sole large domesticated mammal for food purposes in the Aztec Empire!). Food crops could reach areas deficient in them on the backs of horses (according to Jared Diamond one reason the Americas developed at a slower pace than Eurasia was the north-south striation of biomes made crop and technology diffusion slower). It might well be possible for Mesoamerican crops to reach North America well before they actually did!

I'm not aware of any real world civilization achieving ironworking without going through bronze first (an unfortunate impossibility in North and Central America given the lack of tin deposits), but the related technology of pottery kilns could well allow it if one squints a bit.

Thus Rivaro's backstory is made to fit, and I get a generally higher pre-Colombian technology base to work with ... which is all to the good, given the difficulties of developing a major maritime infrastructure with few food crops or domestic animals. I was planning to gloss over that, but I might not have to!

Now, the glaring problem with this is that it sets the entirety of the Americas on a different tack for the last twelve thousand years or so. This might not be too much of a problem; horses wouldn't do well in tropical Colombie-Brittanique or freezing Walmington, and the history of Virginia more or less starts after horses would have been introduced by Europeans anyway ... the major issue would be the Hironeidan Sept, the Argentine Pampas being an ideal location for native pastoralists to develop (and IRL mounted natives resisted the Argentine government for some time in the Pampas). So I dunno there. But I'm excited! Can I have horsies? Pweeeeease?

[The Crooked Beat]

Hmm...

That is a most interesting question! Though I'm by no means a horse expert, or an expert on much of anything for that matter, or even particularly well-informed, I was under the impression that horses in their present form did not exist in the Americas before Columbus's arrival. Even the feral Mustang looks to be ultimately descended from that initial influx. I think it would be taking things a bit far if we allowed a new species of horse to be created, but I suppose there's no reason why they couldn't have been introduced significantly earlier than they were in real life, maybe at about the time of early Viking voyages. When it comes to drawing a new branch on the evolutionary tree, however, well, that seems a bit iffy.

Anyway, I suppose it's something we will have to discuss in greater depth, though I'd be willing to wager that you're probably the first one to spot those particular elements in Rivaro's history. Pushing dates back and forth by a few hundred years might be feasible to some extent, but I'm a bit reluctant to depart from the overall course of social evolution.

But let's not get bogged-down in ancient history!

Otherwise, that looks like an ideal means of accomodating your claim Iskarajan and I for one give it my stamp of approval, so I guess it just remains for you to pin-down your exact borders and that's that.

I'll also take this opportunity to finalize my latest (and hopefully closer to definitive) claim:

Avarga, broadly similar to the Avarga of several months prior and consisting of the following territories:

Morocco (not incl. Western Sahara or Essaouira), Portugal (not incl. Azores), Prince Edward Islands, French Southern and Antarctic Lands, & Reunion.

Total population of some 42,229,389.

[Chrinthanium]

Hmm...

That is a most interesting question! Though I'm by no means a horse expert, or an expert on much of anything for that matter, or even particularly well-informed, I was under the impression that horses in their present form did not exist in the Americas before Columbus's arrival. Even the feral Mustang looks to be ultimately descended from that initial influx. I think it would be taking things a bit far if we allowed a new species of horse to be created, but I suppose there's no reason why they couldn't have been introduced significantly earlier than they were in real life, maybe at about the time of early Viking voyages. When it comes to drawing a new branch on the evolutionary tree, however, well, that seems a bit iffy.

Anyway, I suppose it's something we will have to discuss in greater depth, though I'd be willing to wager that you're probably the first one to spot those particular elements in Rivaro's history. Pushing dates back and forth by a few hundred years might be feasible to some extent, but I'm a bit reluctant to depart from the overall course of social evolution.

But let's not get bogged-down in ancient history!

Otherwise, that looks like an ideal means of accomodating your claim Iskarajan and I for one give it my stamp of approval, so I guess it just remains for you to pin-down your exact borders and that's that.

I'll also take this opportunity to finalize my latest (and hopefully closer to definitive) claim:

Avarga, broadly similar to the Avarga of several months prior and consisting of the following territories:

Morocco (not incl. Western Sahara or Essaouira), Portugal (not incl. Azores), Prince Edward Islands, French Southern and Antarctic Lands, & Reunion.

Total population of some 42,229,389.

I though we weren't doing Antartica lands, unless these are simply islands in the Southern Ocean. Because, if so, then RL Australia has a huge chunk of Antartica in its territorial grasp, of which its mostly for research purposes.

[Jatriqya and Hoya]

Now, the glaring problem with this is that it sets the entirety of the Americas on a different tack for the last twelve thousand years or so. This might not be too much of a problem; horses wouldn't do well in tropical Colombie-Brittanique or freezing Walmington, and the history of Virginia more or less starts after horses would have been introduced by Europeans anyway ... the major issue would be the Hironeidan Sept, the Argentine Pampas being an ideal location for native pastoralists to develop (and IRL mounted natives resisted the Argentine government for some time in the Pampas). So I dunno there. But I'm excited! Can I have horsies? Pweeeeease?

Of course, there's always the possibility that horses were domesticated in North America and not moved to South America, leaving, for example, the Hironeidan Sept and Colombie without horses, much like the Andes' Llama never made it to the Aztecs, etc.

And I don't know what dipstick decided to try and invent the 'scientific' north-south diffusion, it's what I call different freaking environments affected not only by latitude but also by winds, currents, etc. I've read the Guns, Germs and Steel book, and while it was really interesting in lots of areas (like the Maori Wars, or Easter Island), it spent a lot of time explain simple things like 'Llama can't cross over Jungle' by 'north-south diffusion caused blah blah blah.'

I don't have an opinion on the horses thing though. I'm not exactly against it, per say, but would like to hear more from other members.

[Kyr Shorn]

I say just have horses introduced by Vikings (or some other appropriate group) centuries before Colombus and then just go from there.

[Iskarajan]

I don't actually like horses per se - in fact I'd be happier if they were all extinct - but they provide an easy way to jump-start agricultural society in North America. If you don't want to go with it, though, that's fine. The real agricultural stimulus would be the potato, which I do like ... but as I said earlier, getting it from Peru to New York in pre-Colombian times is dubious. No matter, I can work with the food crops in the area (the Eastern Agricultural Complex, wild rice, and the later arrivals of beans and corn from Mesoamerica). Actually, I hadn't realized there were quite so many food crops in North America!

More useful than the horse in terms of introduced fauna would be the sheep (which would be more likely to make the transatlantic journey with any Viking settlers); it's easier to raise as a meat source than horses and provides wool and milk. The introduction of sheep around the tenth century would easily link up with the introduction of corn from Mesoamerica, and really kickstart the agricultural economy of Iskarajan around that time. Plus sheep are tastier! Alternatively, I could wait for their introduction by the Walmingtonians in the late 15th century.

It also occurs to me that Viking/Rus/Varangian/whoever contact with North America would help the later Walmingtonian colonization, since any surviving European records (such as the Norse Sagas or their equivalents) would point to the existence of lands across the ocean.

So forget horses - I can haz sheeps?

I like the Morocco-and-Portugal claim of LRR, for what my two cents are worth. And it's time for me to knuckle down with an atlas, I guess!

[Maxen von Bismarck]

One assumption we seem to be working with is that Europe is as interested in North America as, say, Spain and Portugal were in real life. Looking through the histories of our various nations it seems that Christendom, and the passion for evangelicalism, had a very justified humility. In many ways it is 'more' powerful in the crucial early teen centuries (Byzantium hasn't fallen, for instance) but undoubtedly more... Celtic fearing, more fragmented and less concerned with out competing each other between the periodic attacks from souless pagans (Depkazia springs to mind). Perhaps Europe just never quite got the same gold fever in AMW as it did in the real world. Perhaps sailors from Valendia in North America landed and... Ka-pow! "My face, ARGH, what is clawing at my face?" And left the cultures along the North American coast crucial centuries before so that they van get their civilizations popping along well before the Walmy's and Virginians ever set foot on North America?

[Iskarajan]

One problem with that is that the technology of the day meant that ships of the medieval era were fundamentally less seaworthy than their descendants; lacking cannon, the warships of the era were either rowed galleys or sailed galleons; in either case the primary naval tactic (barring Greek Fire, something I'm sure the Byzantines loved the heck out of!) was boarding. Vessels had heavy forecastles to accomodate the contingent of marines; essentially the front of the ship was like a siege tower. This front-loaded weight made the ship hit the waves wrong, and essentially meant that the medieval galleon wasn't well suited to trans-Atlantic voyages. When cannon were introduced and the primary naval tactic turned to blasting each other apart at range, weight could be more evenly distributed and vessels became more seaworthy. Or so I recall from ... somewhere, I'm tired and can't remember the source right now.

In any case, we do have Acadzian colonization in North America (Godfreyite interests in Walmington and protestants in Virginia - although in accordance with your idea it's true neither were actually enterprises of the Acadzian Crown as such) and French colonization in south/central America (Colombie-Brittanique). Vikings/Celtic monks/Rus/whoever are sufficient for my interests, I think.

In which case some input from Modravia re the Rus, and WoS re Vinland, would be appreciated so I can nail down my own history - even if it's just "Yes, some Rus landed on North America around 1000AD" and "Yes, L'Anse aux Meadows can be where it is IRL". Walmington's island possessions seem the most logical place for a Rus or other medieval european settlement, even if it does make for more coordination. I'd say either the genuine site of L'Anse aux Meadows, or somewhere on Anticosti Island (WoS' Queen Mavis Island) would be the best locations.

[Iskarajan]

Hokay! Here is Ze Claim in all it's glory. Numbers added.

1. Quebec - population 7,546,131
Excluding the regions of Bas-Saint-Laurent (200,653) - the following Census Divisions (La Matapedia 19,199)(Matane 22,247)(La Mitis 19,365)(Rimouski-Neigette 53,193)(Les Basques 9,475)(Rivière-du-Loup 33,305)(Témiscouata 21,785)(Kamouraska 22,084)
and Gaspésie-Îles-de-la-Madeleine (94,336) - the following Census Divisions (Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine 13,091)(Le Rocher-Percé 18,437)(La Côte-de-Gaspé 17,888)(La Haute-Gaspésie 12,329)(Bonaventure 17,948)(Avignon 14,643)
and the island of Anticosti (281) (which are Walmingtonian possessions, totalling 295,270 persons),
the Census Divisions of Nord-du-Québec (39,817) and Abitibi-Ouest (20,792),
the Unorganized Territory of Caniapiscau in Manicouagan Census Division (population zero) and the various Territories, Unorganized Territories, and Reserves of Manicouagan CD just north of Newfoundland (Lac-Juillet 0)(Lac-Vacher 0)(Matimekosh 528)(Kawawachikamach 569)(Lac-John 16)(Schefferville 202). Totalling 61,924.
A subtraction of 375,194 from the total Quebecois population, giving a total population for Iskarajan-in-Quebec of 7,170,937
2. Ontario - population 12,160,282
Excluding the census divisions of Cochrane (82,503), Kenora (64,419) and Rainy River (21,564). Totalling 168,406.
Giving a total population for Iskarajan-in-Ontario of 11,991,879
3. New York - population 19,378,102
4. Pennsylvania - population 12,702,379
5. Maryland - population 5,773,552
6. Washington D.C. - population 601,723
7. Delaware - population 897,934
8. New Jersey - population 8,791,894

Giving a total population of 67,308,400 people. Populations for Canada courtesy of Statistics Canada and the 2006 Canadian Census, populations for the United States courtesy of the 2010 US Census. Do I have to work out the total land area as well?

Edit again: Worked out the land area, which is 1,179,443.24 km2 (a little smaller than South Africa). Average population density is therefore 57 people per square kilometer (similar to that of Mexico).

[Chrinthanium]

Hokay! Here is Ze Claim in all it's glory. Right now this is just a list of the territorial areas; I've just about managed to figure out how to find the populations of various bits from Canada's 2006 census, which I shall add in at a later date when my brain is not swimming in fatigue poisons.

1. Quebec
Excluding the regions of Bas-Saint-Laurent and Gaspésie-Îles-de-la-Madeleine and the island of Anticosti (which are Walmingtonian possessions) and the region of Nord-du-Québec. There's a good map here.
2. Ontario
Excluding the census divisions of Cochrane, Kenora and Rainy River. There's a map here.
3. New York
4. Pennsylvania
5. Maryland
6. Washington D.C.
7. Delaware
8. New Jersey

Awesome, so, now, what's your population!

[Iansisle]

Despite what the Royal Aerial Dragoons would have you think, I don't know a terribly large amount about the equids. I do know a bit about the pleistocene extinctions, however, and must say I don't find anything particularly offensive about horses native to North America. After all, it was a rather cruel trick of history that saw the progenitor continent of the horse amongst the last to see its considerable benefits through domestication. And, as Iska said, it's not like we're reviving the mammoth or sabre toothed tiger or anything. There are many things in AMW that make less sense. For example, why does the Shield know the antelope Taurotragus oryx by the common name "eland" despite the utter lack of Dutch influence in Sooth Effrika? Possibly because we should repeat to ourselves it's just a show or possibly because Hotan kicked etymology in the face until it gave us what we want. I think this is a similar case.

As for sheep, most modern domestic sheep are assumed to have been derived from the central asian mouflon -- which has not one but two close extant relatives in north america, the big horn and the dall. While the dall are not covered by anyone's claim, it is possible that big horns were domesticated in northern Rivaro and spread through the land which is now Virginia north.

More useful than the horse in terms of introduced fauna would be the sheep (which would be more likely to make the transatlantic journey with any Viking settlers); it's easier to raise as a meat source than horses and provides wool and milk. The introduction of sheep around the tenth century would easily link up with the introduction of corn from Mesoamerica, and really kickstart the agricultural economy of Iskarajan around that time. Plus sheep are tastier! Alternatively, I could wait for their introduction by the Walmingtonians in the late 15th century.

Well, technically, horses provide milk as well.

/me is now wondering about what horse milk tastes like.

[Walmington on Sea]

I can't help thinking that if the early Godfreyite obsession with the Welsh-Indians theory should in AMW prove to be worth its salt, pre-Godfreyite sheep in North America suddenly seem all the more likely!

Strangely I was just thinking yesterday about horses and the early Walmingtonians. Currently I have as little as a few score and at most a couple of hundred Godfreyites arriving aboard the St.Aldhelm (which may need a sister ship or two just to make survival viable at this rate!), managing to defend themselves against the Iskarajans by means uncertain. In keeping with what Isk points out re. the greater viability of sheep on early trans-Atlantic voyages, I can't imagine the Godfreyites turning up with a large number of horses, given that they were coming aboard just one or two small caraval-type vessels.
I pondered maybe having Godfrey himself bring the first (post-extinction) and solitary horse to the Americas, and pull off some, "HOLY SHIT! THAT HALF-MAN-HALF DEER IS THE SIZE OF A HOUSE!" charge that terrifies and scatters the Iskarajans at a crucial early battle, and having the horse play some Boxer-esque feats of strength in building the first colony before dying and leaving us horseless again until the Catholics start turning up. That combined with the English longbow deployed as massed artillery, earthen and palisade fortifications, some steel blades, and formation discipline drilled into some of the men in the Wars of the Roses (plus perhaps a single light cannon) hopefully are enough to explain how they manage to hold on to RL Newfoundland (or even just the Avalon Peninsula) until their numbers and ability to live in the new environment are consoldiated sufficiently to push on.

I think I'd be fine with having some Modravian-related pioneers make landfall at L'Anse aux Meadows (which I've oh so creatively renamed Jellyfish Cove, and would like to rename again if only I knew what we called 'jellyfish' a couple of centuries ago) generations before the Godfreyites do, perhaps leaving behind some sheep before their own settlement fails, either forgotten about or over-run by Iskarajans. So long as the Modravian-types are gone (be they home/slaughtered/assimilated) by the time Godfrey arrives, anyway. Their leaving some European livestock on Newfoundland might actually help the colonists to survive and prosper anyway.

On Quebec, I should probably apologise for making Walmingtonian claims so complicated by doing things like taking a couple of the regional subdivisions of Côte-Nord but not all of them

Anyway, I have some things to do, today, but hopefully over this long weekend I'll get to updating Walmingtonian maps and histories and such, which I'll no doubt enjoy more than is quite normal.

[Iskarajan]

@Ian: The Turks used to ferment mare's milk; look up kumiss! It is apparently a very acquired taste.

@WoS: I have no problems with that. The longbow in particular should prove decisive, since the Iskarans of the time were typically armed with atlatls, spears, and a pair of knives. Although it's worth noting that the Iskarans probably wouldn't have been dead-set against the Walmingtonians immediately; they'd almost certainly have attempted to trade first, in order to scope out Walmingtonian defenses if nothing else! There's room for Thanksgiving-esque "We save you from starvation with bountiful gifts of squash and corn" things, at least until the Walmingtonians start going "What ho! EMPIRE!" and the Iskarans go "O NO HE DINT". The rather extreme religious differences, plus European uncleanliness, plus (unclean! unclean!) European diseases should prove adequate to sour any cooperation between the two.

[Walmington on Sea]

Hmm, yes, I may already be over thinking this, but I quite like the idea of the Modravian/Varangian types leaving some sheep or whatever on Newfoundland (Great Walmington) in the middle ages before being repulsed or absorbed by the Iskarajans, who then (after no doubt suffering catastrophic waves of disease borne by European livestock, giving them some resistance ahead of later European contact) start breeding their own sheep on the mainland and either transplant or hunt the island's sheep to extinction... then, a couple of centuries later, when the Godfreyite colonists are struggling to survive their first years on the island, the Iskarajans bring them some sheep. Thus, forget turkey and such avian nonsense, modern Walmingtonians put on woolen jumpers each year and sit down for a traditional mutton/lamb roast!

On weapons, I imagine that iron and steel will make a decisive difference if the Iskarajans initially lack such metals. A Walmingtonian with a steel sword will strike much more quickly than a native with a hefty bludgeon/axe/spear, and will out-reach a knife or break copper/bronze weapons with his blade. Probably for the most part the Walmingtonians will shelter in defences the natives aren't experienced in assailing, then in the field weaken them with longbow bombardment and fend off ranged skirmishers thus, and advance in tight formation with pikes. I wonder if the very concept of imperialism as practiced by the Walmingtonians might in itself come as a surprise, as they won't raid native settlements and withdraw, but drive off warbands only to stay and build a palisade and start dictating to people in the surrounding country.
On the other hand, settler Adrian Glamorgan's early printing press and the Godfreyite notion of freedom of information and universal education might be something that the Iskarajans pick up on pretty early. The Godfreyites would be keen to teach the natives literacy, and once you've got that, you're off on your own renaissance. Maybe we even trade a printing press for some of your finest rams or some such

But I appear to be turning this into the discussion thread. I think the basics of the claims are settled, and everyone's more or less happy?

[The Crooked Beat]

Well, I for one am satisfied. To the discussion thread!

It's a good thing we've got Ian around, him and his ecological background.

Also, any objections to my Morocco/Portugal concept? Going once, going twice...

[Iskarajan]

I have added numbers to my claim - the total population is 67,308,400 people. For what my 0.02 Ajeks are worth, I approve of the Portugal/Morocco concept.