Red String of Fate (OOC) (OPEN) (Courting)

[The Frozen Forest]

...man, I've missed quite a bit, eh?

It would seem so...You're always welcome to rejoin us though.

Loving everyone's posts so far, and my own post is in the works. Should be up in a couple hours or so!

[The Holy Solar Empire]

...man, I've missed quite a bit, eh?

It would seem so...You're always welcome to rejoin us though.

Loving everyone's posts so far, and my own post is in the works. Should be up in a couple hours or so!

Wooo!

So happy this RP is back!

[Scornerse]

I wasn't entirely sure about what Sartana was going to do regarding Olena when Melonie tracks her down with her, but I've come up with something straight forward that'll teach Olena to submit to Sartana and also keep Melonie in line.

Should be fun for Sartana, too

[The Frozen Forest]

New post is up! A bunch of characters are being faced with decisions and certain events are beginning to escalate. Enjoy!

[Kyrenaia]

New post is up! A bunch of characters are being faced with decisions and certain events are beginning to escalate. Enjoy!

Fun times ahead for everyone. Am I right in assuming, that Count Arrun is introducing himself to Mari?
And is there some sort of coup currently running?

[The Frozen Forest]

New post is up! A bunch of characters are being faced with decisions and certain events are beginning to escalate. Enjoy!

Fun times ahead for everyone. Am I right in assuming, that Count Arrun is introducing himself to Mari?
And is there some sort of coup currently running?

Yep, Arrun is introducing himself to Mari.

No*
*Due to the laxative poisoning and general mistrust, Admiral Aron Fältskog believes there is an ongoing coup by The Royal Guard and is attempting to counter them by freeing Court Photographer Seraria and meeting with Ivan, alongside Princess Eleanore. The Royal Guard, seeing military activity by the Navy in the royal dungeons believes that the Navy is attempting a coup and have organized themselves in the holding cells to hold off the sailors. The Royal Guards leadership is unaware of all of this and is currently mingling in the ballroom.

Neither side is actually attempting a coup yet.

[Kyrenaia]

Fun times ahead for everyone. Am I right in assuming, that Count Arrun is introducing himself to Mari?
And is there some sort of coup currently running?

Yep, Arrun is introducing himself to Mari.

No*
*Due to the laxative poisoning and general mistrust, Admiral Aron Fältskog believes there is an ongoing coup by The Royal Guard and is attempting to counter them by freeing Court Photographer Seraria and meeting with Ivan, alongside Princess Eleanore. The Royal Guard, seeing military activity by the Navy in the royal dungeons believes that the Navy is attempting a coup and have organized themselves in the holding cells to hold off the sailors. The Royal Guards leadership is unaware of all of this and is currently mingling in the ballroom.

Neither side is actually attempting a coup yet.

Wonderful.

"Neither side is actually attempting a coup yet."
(Emphasis mine.)
Should I be worried?

[Brettenwald]

god I hate writer's block

might be able to get a post out after Tuesday, academia's also kicking my ass

[The Frozen Forest]

Yep, Arrun is introducing himself to Mari.

No*
*Due to the laxative poisoning and general mistrust, Admiral Aron Fältskog believes there is an ongoing coup by The Royal Guard and is attempting to counter them by freeing Court Photographer Seraria and meeting with Ivan, alongside Princess Eleanore. The Royal Guard, seeing military activity by the Navy in the royal dungeons believes that the Navy is attempting a coup and have organized themselves in the holding cells to hold off the sailors. The Royal Guards leadership is unaware of all of this and is currently mingling in the ballroom.

Neither side is actually attempting a coup yet.

Wonderful.

"Neither side is actually attempting a coup yet."
(Emphasis mine.)
Should I be worried?

I wouldn't worry about it, most power players in the country are more concerned with making sure their preferred suitor takes power, or with their other responsibilities. A coup isn't really in the cards for any character at the moment.

god I hate writer's block

might be able to get a post out after Tuesday, academia's also kicking my ass

Looking forwards to it! Hopefully school lightens up.

[Scornerse]

I wouldn't worry about it, most power players in the country are more concerned with making sure their preferred suitor takes power, or with their other responsibilities. A coup isn't really in the cards for any character at the moment.

Speaking of preferred suitors' I've been trying to keep track of who supports who and for some like Isabella, I can't really tell.

Plus there's a difference between OOC knowledge of who supports who, and what each character would know.

[The Frozen Forest]

I wouldn't worry about it, most power players in the country are more concerned with making sure their preferred suitor takes power, or with their other responsibilities. A coup isn't really in the cards for any character at the moment.

Speaking of preferred suitors' I've been trying to keep track of who supports who and for some like Isabella, I can't really tell.

Plus there's a difference between OOC knowledge of who supports who, and what each character would know.

That's a good point, and something that I've noticed as I've been bringing in more characters. I've been thinking that it wouldn't be a bad idea to get lists down for which characters and factions are aligned with which suitors, and to what degree. That's something I'll start drawing up after I get a nap in, and can probably have up tomorrow.

I'm sure the list could be made in such a way to also indicate whether their support is public knowledge, known by the suitor(s) or currently unknown. Alternatively I could stick all characters whose loyalties haven't be revealed in a "Unknown" category until their sympathies are revealed.

[The Holy Solar Empire]

lol, I posted in so much threads I didn't even noticed a post was up.

Post should be up tomorrow.

[Kyrenaia]

I will freely admit, that I completely forgot about the Handmaidens before I re-read the first posts... in any case, if there are any questions, feel free to ask them, everyone.

I wouldn't worry about it, most power players in the country are more concerned with making sure their preferred suitor takes power, or with their other responsibilities. A coup isn't really in the cards for any character at the moment.

[...]

Ah, good to know... I was worried, that Auntie Razia would have to get angry in far-away Utica... ; )

god I hate writer's block

might be able to get a post out after Tuesday, academia's also kicking my ass

I know, how you feel...

[The Holy Solar Empire]

How is everyone doing by the way?

I'm enjoying the story personally, hope everyone else is having fun too :)

Edit: My post is gonna be a tiny bit delayed, a few big things are coming and I just need clarification on something from Scorn before I finish.

Then I'll need to go over everything one more time.

[A m e n r i a]

Speaking of preferred suitors' I've been trying to keep track of who supports who and for some like Isabella, I can't really tell.

Plus there's a difference between OOC knowledge of who supports who, and what each character would know.

That's a good point, and something that I've noticed as I've been bringing in more characters. I've been thinking that it wouldn't be a bad idea to get lists down for which characters and factions are aligned with which suitors, and to what degree. That's something I'll start drawing up after I get a nap in, and can probably have up tomorrow.

I'm sure the list could be made in such a way to also indicate whether their support is public knowledge, known by the suitor(s) or currently unknown. Alternatively I could stick all characters whose loyalties haven't be revealed in a "Unknown" category until their sympathies are revealed.

This would be extremely helpful

How is everyone doing by the way?

I'm enjoying the story personally, hope everyone else is having fun too

Edit: My post is gonna be a tiny bit delayed, a few big things are coming and I just need clarification on something from Scorn before I finish.

Then I'll need to go over everything one more time.

I have a draft, but my creative energy was spent on modding and story for a side project on patreon. I do have time today tho, so ig I can run things through with Frozen Foresf here once my draft has more weight for quality control and other tweaks here and there.

[The Holy Solar Empire]

I hope my understanding of the ballroom makes everything work, since I'm under the impression the garden entrance and ballroom entrance are on opposite ends of a crowded room.

Anyways hey Forest, depending on when you start working on a post will I have time to add a related filler? Or should I wait until you get something up?

Post is up!

And for reference if anyone is curious, Louis's name is pronounced without the s.

I feel we are nearly at the finishing line of the poison subplot and I finally have Louis attending the ball, and boy is he beyond angry. As well something is starting to affect Eleanore, and there are two attempts from the Châlonian's to restore order with Eleanore seeking the knights aid to meet the King while Louis angrily ask demands cooperation from the guard.

Hopefully we can get this sub plot done soon, and I expect when appropriate Sartana will finally have Eleanore accept her challenge from earlier, also let Chuvol be behind so he can be talked to or something.

And if it wasn't already apparent, Eleanore and Louis's father has a short fuse that seems to run in the family.

I think there is a legit interesting dichotomy between Eleanore and Sartana, Sartana's ability to plot and weave through the nobility has allowed her to swiftly start making connections while Eleanore had gotten roadblocked by the sickness and her connections to Seraria, however Eleanore is extremely smart and where as Sartana can make connections she has the ability to completely upend the court intrigue of the nation, at least within the palace. I think this experience is going exactly where it needs to for my own story so far, and it's been really fun so far.

On that note.

Hey Forest, is there going to be a chance to transition from day one and two? I imagine so characters can reflect on all the crazy shenanigans that have occurred, I can see there being some interesting scenes discussing the current fallout.

Oh and in case anyone is curious, back when I first introduced Louis, I had have a segment of Eleanore sending a report about the ball, so Louis should be familiar with everything that had occurred before Eleanore became sick.

Edit: lol, part of me has been pretty anxious with the post to be honest, to be perfectly honest I'm really looking forward to ending the plot line within a reasonable time frame, I had originally decided that Eleanore's immune system could take the lax and she was gonna speak to likely Oswald way back then or more likely Friis, and the gap in time between her being sick and Leopold finishing the drinking game with Aron was a bit long so I felt there would be suspicion.....

I enjoy the story so far but from my own perspective I've dropped to of the whole romance plot entirely and been engulfed into a sort of thriller, and the weirdest part is the story from my end is still going in the right direction I was hoping when I first joined, which for obvious reasons I can't explain beyond that I honestly can't tell you how this came to be.

[The Holy Solar Empire]

I encourage this to be read by anyone, but it mostly involves Scornerse, Forest, and myself. It's mostly a reflection of how I think the RP is going, my concerns and worries, and there is no insults thrown around, just a little bit of anger caused by some bullshit pizza that made me realize my recent anxiety needs to be dealt with in way I think can best illustrates how I'm dealing with the RP. At no point am I trying to through around accusations or trying to give any drama, I'm just saying stuff close to the heart about my experience, because while I do enjoy the story, there is just some stuff thats eating at me, and I admit might all be in my head, but going further goes into personnel bullshit.

So I'm gonna be real with you all, the anxiety I have had since I made my post and responded to Scorn's own, in combination with the anger I have right now, because of two wasted pizzas because some dumbass burned them or whatever before getting them to store shelf's, has made me realized that I have much undue stress that I need to get out because there is some discourse I feel I need to get off my chest.

Scorn you had a chance to voice some displeasure about me before and your recent comments to me in private have given me a hint that you are displeased yourself about the RP in one way or another, I can't really say if this is the case or not, it is just how I feel, so I think I'm allowed a bit of a chance to explain what I feel is going on here.

First of all I can't say you personally are annoyed, but I feel that there is something there when we talk or post to each other, I think thats true of any interaction really. But I am a little annoyed at the idea that Eleanore is given everything to her, while Sartana is proactive.

I can't control what Forest does, a lot of the interactions we have are based on what he writes, so for example; yes the Catholics are for her, reasons that I'm sure she would be stumped forgiven that as Louis already says in the story, they don't like Catholics, there are bad stories about them from the 4th Crusade to pedophilia, so such support is at best seen as something to bite their tongue about.

Further I'm putting my foot down on this, IC complaint or not, Eleanore hasn't had a chance to be too proactive, pretty much out of the gate she was met with the Lunar King and then Ari. In regards to Seraria, I was already going into the RP with the intent of using such a character to act as propaganda, as shown I'd rather take the path of least resistance to get to where I want the story to, if I think it makes sense.

And in regards to the radio, I'm sorry Sartana has no measured response to 19th century technology, that was always gonna be in play on my end, it has always been the intent of mine that things like radios, or cameras, could be in play because Eleanore would have grown up in a time where such levels of surveillance are everywhere, she only knows that Court intrigue is a thing because thats one of the reasons why people always have a radio and beacon, etc on them when at court or whatever.

And plus our two characters just keep getting into each others orbits, but things would have been very different had things changed even early on.

So here is my rough map of things I was gonna do, but were changed by other developments.

1. Eleanore seeks out the court photographer so she can have a good picture, this was still in play up to Ari.
2. When Seraria admits she took the picture for Sartana, Eleanore would not mind Seraria keeping it, had Seraria decided to remain they would have both gone on to take some pictures, likely either talking to the Duchess as suggested by the Lunar King (That was a plot line that went nowhere when someone else got her support...) and maybe someone else.
3. Eleanore wasn't originally gonna be affected by the laxative, she was originally gonna have something to handle that and be fine, Forest brought up that since the thing behind the Lax is native to the Forest Forest she should still be affected somewhat, I took that to a logical degree, if she has no way to deal with it she might get pretty sick.
4. Had I stick to my original plans, I'd had Eleanore just go to Friis and ask him what the hell he was thinking, then go out to seek for the King, I had even intended to have her meet with Ari to gain his support to finding Ivan quickly, when she was sick mind you, but this was before Aron responded by mustering the sailors.
5. Further she would have sought Sartana out immediately and then challenged her for a duel, not tomorrow but right there, pick her weapon, whether that happened or they agreed to actually do it the day after, Eleanore would have directed Louis when he got here to be a constant problem for Sartana anyways because there would be no going back after Seraria got imprisoned.
6. Had the post finishing up with Oswald been more conclusive to Sartana still being there, I would have had (As initially written) had him interrupt Sartana still, but otherwise ignorant of what else is going on would have.
A. Admonished the priest (With a jab for him being a catholic being there in some way.) But otherwise approve of the plan because he knows Eleanore doesn't like people doing stuff like that, forgery is dishonesty, etc.
B. Would be a flirt to Sartana because he's just a sucker for beautiful women anyways.
C. When Leopold does message him about being there on speaker (Because it's a Louis thing to do, he's an eccentric loud mouth who would put something on speakers just to mess with someone), he would have gotten the hell away to talk to him when he says his sister is poisoned, because thats actually super serious.
7. Back before Seraria got imprisoned on Sartana's words, Louis would have actually been an opposition character for Eleanore's chances, he probably would even have allied Sartana because as mentioned, he is a bit selfish and doesn't wanna his sister to move away to some foreign country thats run by prims.
8. Ultimately that would have been one of the things I would have focused on early on, that Eleanore shouldn't be Queen for a host of reasons, some legit which Sartana has pointed out (Power dynamics). But we've been caught up in this conspiracy plotline that sorry, Sartana is involved in, I can't imagine how she won't be pulled back in, and who knows what happens from there.
9. Chuvol is just here now until I think of what to do with him, again pre sickness, pre Seraria going to jail stuff.
10. Ultimately, I had Louis interfere with Sartana and Friis's second convo because if it gets us past this current plotline my enjoyment of the story would be much better. Sorry, but in the time Sartana had to pick other fights, plot, etc; Eleanore was talking to a vassal, the Prince, Seraria, then got sick, had to seek help from Aron, figure out their next move, act on that move. I just wanna move things a bit along, quite frankly I' kinda wish I did buck what Forest said, I should have just said no she's fine, then things would be back to point 3 to 5 more or less, and these are just things I did, I think you still brought a o of Sartana issues on her.

And look, I still enjoy Sartana as a character, I'm still amicable to you as a person. But I can't stop getting the feeling that there is some of the writer being projected into the character here, and look I will be honest, but if we could do this whole thing again, and I had to still use Eleanore (Because if we truly could do this over I would have used my Roman/Byzantine alt, more interesting imo) I assure you I would have done things differently, I would be more upfront of my plans, I would be more upfront about what tech I had on hand (I did tell Forest I wouldn't bring anything too out there again, it's up to him to determine of a face recognition app counts.) and I would have probably been more consistently better written, this is the first time I have written anything significant character or story wise in years, I'm not joking when I say that.

I've just had a bit of anxiety lately, I feel like I'm stuck in a plotline I haven't enjoyed as much as I used to, I feel like I haven't been able to actually do what I came into do, I feel like I'm judged with only one person in the whole RP I actually am involved with, no content with any other suitor for example...where are the Nova interactions for example, nothing against Saucer, not their fault but like, I just feel that this is not the RP I was expecting.

I came in expecting a fairly light-hearted RP where I could show off this character of mine, have some fun and wonder regards to some tech, and there might be a bit of romance. But then it started seeming a bit serious because now I have essentially an RP partner who has shown they don't like dealing with an FT player, which isn't my fault, it's up to Forest whose allowed in the RP, Nova is in here too, and if it wasn't for their own deal I'm sure that would cause their own ruckus for people.

The way I see it, I'm not writing for a Romance or courting RP, I'm writing for a how done it story, we know who did what, we just need to get the characters to put the pieces together so Eleanore can ask Melanie "Just one more thing." For me and Eleanore, Ivan is just background dressing now, I'm sure upon reflection she doesn't even wanna marry the dude of a Kingdom that got her poisoned and had an innocent indited for crimes on the words of a suitor, and plus the power dynamics Sartana brought up are gonna likely sink in.

Which is fair, because all I knew when coming into the story is that "Ivan probably really shouldn't marry Eleanore, but regardless of whats happening I know where I want her to end up at. Which is actually still going strong, despite every other plan being ditched or going awry, the core story I wanted to tell of Eleanore is still happening. And if Ivan does want her as a wife, then that works fine for this story.

Now, for me this is a detective/conspiracy RP, not a romance/courtship RP, as soon as Eleanore is fine and dandy she is gonna want to make sure Sartana can't be Ivan's Queen and then God willing punch her face in, and then hopefully either leave a changed person with a goal in life for justice, or be Ivan's queen and bring some much needed reform, because I tell you hat, Ivan won't have to worry about a coup when she's around, but again, power dynamics at play, it's all up to Forest in the end, I'm still interested in role playing, I just get a feeling that some of the writing for Sartana is coming from the soul and I don't think the prior resolution when this issue came up was properly settled.

I freely admit I can be wrong here, I might just be projecting my worries due to general anxiety, again I've been feeling a bit of self doubt about my writing, about the RP, and about my interactions so I admit I might be reading into this all, but I just now I need to get it out so it doesn't eat at me any more than it did already. And given the Pizza bs that happened, now is a good time to vent as any in my eyes.

As a bonus, a bit about what Eleanore as a character is meant to be in my eyes.

Eleanore is supposed to be a young women (Her application says 19, but thats in her own planets years, she's closer to her mid 20's Earth years iirc) who is deeply lonely on a romantic level, living in a Duchy that should be a Kingdom ruled by a man who came to power because of court bullshit like whats going in now, stuff that will be reflected and explored deeper. She looks like a dainty little princess, but because of her fathers paranoia, has been trained to fight and defend herself, with fist or sword if need be. She looks prim and proper, and is even pious and reserve, but has a streak of singing and playing the guitar, she'd totally sign and bop to an AC/DC song all day long. I came in here to have her learn to not need anyone to speak for her, to gain much needed independence, and depending on what happens at the end, come out becoming the person she is destined to be.

Edit: And the funny thing is that while I feel beyond relieved, this post does cause me a bit of anxiety itself because I don't know what the response is. Like I said I still like the RP, I like Forest as a person and I don't dislike Scorn even if I feel a part of my anxiety is caused by them, I just think there is some stuff that wasn't really resolved and I just need to give my input into this, because this is the First RP I've been in in years, so I've been relearning a lot about not just writing a story, but doing it cooperatively. I'm sure everyone else here is at least a bit more experienced than my rusty ass, so I feel like I'm the newb here, even though I've technically been on NS for years.

Anyways I guess I just hope there is more time for the fist night honestly, and hopefully I'll get to talk to another suitor in the RP, maybe talk to some nobles, this plot line was fun, but I feel it has lasted longer than it needed to, and a part of that is no ones fault really, the RL break just kinda sapped some of the current plots enjoyability for me, and made me reflect on what could have been.

[Scornerse]

the issue wasn't that the technology is too advanced, Sartana comes from a Post-Modern nation. Its that the technology + having three additional characters operating away from her cheapens the intrigue of the setting. With the recording, you no longer have to operate in a fog of war, you don't have to find a way to convince people of things without having sure fire evidence. Everything is absolutely certain.

With having three characters in addition to Eleanore and not having Leopold stick to her as a body guard but instead wander around, you skip out on Eleanore make tough choices on how to use her time. Take Sartana right now. She has three different things to juggle right now, the letter being sent to King Ivan's chambers, trying to track down King Ivan herself so she can get one last time in before midnight, all while trying to navigate the aftermath of Melonie botching the poisoning.

What would Eleanore + three do in this type of situation? Send Leopold to track down the message sending choir boy, have the someone else find a way to shuffle away Melonie, while Eleanore directly leaves for King Ivan, still having one more character to spare for something else that pop ups. All the while these four characters have communication devices to keep each other updated on everything.

To be completely honest, If I took the same approach to technology usage in this RP, a good chunk of the plot wouldn't have happened, because rather than having to track down a court photographer and convince her to take pictures of Eleanore dancing with the Lunar King, I'd just have her take a picture with a smartphone and send it around. That's indicative of exactly how much potential plot is being maimed by Eleonore's technology usage, that's not even accounting for having three other characters that allow her to be everywhere or the fact that they are also going around using communications technology.

Edit: Then to top it all off, Eleanore has no trade offs as a character at all. Sartana is strong, smart and beautiful, sure, but she basically comes from pseudo aristocracy, she's a hyped up commoner. Meanwhile Eleanore is not only smarter and stronger than Sartana (but I guess not as trained in martial arts?) she also has a literal galactic empire backing her up.

Everyone else has strengths and weaknesses that create texture for the story. Amina is tall to the point of freakishness and relatively old, but is also the most even tempered and mature of the suitors. Asha has many of the strengths of Sartana, but not quite, but actually has a real aristocratic background from a country worth being in alliance in. Yali is physically the strongest of the suitors and intelligent, but unlike Asha or Sartana she's not particularly good at hiding her tomboyishness. Nova has tech on par with Eleanore, but she has pretty much nothing else and isn't really trying to be a suitors.

Eleanore is, hate to be cliché, very Mary sue. She is literally a genetically modified superhuman and then on top of the mary sue stuff you have the copious amounts of help from secondary characters. I want to write out her having a deepening rivalry with Sartana, but at every moment I'm struck with how unbelievable it is given all of that.

[Brettenwald]

I was... not expecting all this, I'll admit, but hopefully we can resolve this all amicably without a hard restart of the thread. (If that has to happen I'd make my part Asha 2: Electric Boogaloo since somehow all my other ladies are taken or the age gap would be weird, but that's neither here or there particularly at the moment.)

@Forest: Expect a post Saturday, and you have my permission to drive here to West Virginia and kick my ass if I don't make that happen.

As always, be kind to one another :)

[The Holy Solar Empire]

Chonker Post

I just want you to know I ultimately have nothing but respect for you and that so far my statements at any point have never meant to be with any sort of malice, I just feel that I needed to give my own view because the stress was just getting to great for me.

Edit: I go into greater detail below, but to sum a point up. I think my biggest issue, especially early on, in regards to writing Eleanore's character, is that I write what she thinks to herself, but I don't show to much of her subconscious thoughts, she may say she doesn't think lowly of the Frozen Forest, but because of her upbringing, culturally she does have that bias. She has flaws, but I haven't really done much to show that a flaw is affecting her at any one time, such as how impatient she can get, and how these can work together.

Had she been patient and didn't at some level think poorly of the frozen Forest, she wouldn't had gone with Aron's action, if he was patient she would have attempted to stop gap it all together, if she did respect them she would have gone a whole different path. So purely character wise I have several fundamental disagreements, but I think the actual crux of the issue is my writing character wise, and especially when the RP started, had decline heavily over the years due to not writing characters. You use it or you lose it, and I think this shows that at least in an RP I have regressed in some ways. I don't think this is entirely a me thing, but I at least feel comfortable to know where I could have improved from my end.

the issue wasn't that the technology is too advanced, Sartana comes from a Post-Modern nation. Its that the technology + having three additional characters operating away from her cheapens the intrigue of the setting. With the recording, you no longer have to operate in a fog of war, you don't have to find a way to convince people of things without having sure fire evidence. Everything is absolutely certain.

Well yes, But thats kinda the intent... Eleanore didn't trust someone, whether Sartana or another person, wouldn't try to manipulate someone like Seraria again. From her point of view it is only naturally to eliminate whatever chance of intrigue possible because she knows history is full of that causing bad things to happen. As Louis asked in the IC, and as the other characters will attest to, they find the lack of cameras and radios, etc everywhere to be something that barely crossed their minds, at most assuming no one personally had such.

Anyways I only have two other characters supporting her, but I'm not the only person who brought multiple people, it kinda feels like I'm being soloed out on that aspect. Now sure Louis came in later in the RP, but I always intended for a character like him to show up later to again.

With having three characters in addition to Eleanore and not having Leopold stick to her as a body guard but instead wander around, you skip out on Eleanore make tough choices on how to use her time.

But to counter that I'd remind you that Eleanore has been caught up with at least two people coming to her first. And then this plot where she got effectively poisoned, by all means she's tearing her body apart where she should be out of the story completely. I also think there is a fair reason why Leopold separated, because they trusted the guard to make sure she is safe. And they had a good plan to use her advantages, Leopold goes to military men, while Eleanore would have first gone to the priest to gather support, mend potential differences, etc, and then later more nobles.

Ultimately however I decided to follow the suggestion she be sick and that limits her ability to actually do anything for a bit of time.

Take Sartana right now. She has three different things to juggle right now, the letter being sent to King Ivan's chambers, trying to track down King Ivan herself so she can get one last time in before midnight, all while trying to navigate the aftermath of Meolonie botching the poisoning.

Fair point, but Eleanore is trying to seek Ivan so he can help put a stop to the madness, she needs to make sure this doesn't even get out so a diplomatic incident doesn't occur, and also she needs to find out who did this, because she doesn't know the person behind this, she only knows that someone who talked to Sartana planned this, she doesn't even think Sartana is responsible, at least for the poisoning thing, as far as she is concerned Sartana is a pawn as well.

What would Eleanore + three do in this type of situation? Send Leopold to track down the message sending choir boy, have the someone else find a way to shuffle away Melonie, while Eleanore directly leaves for King Ivan, still having one more character to spare for something else to pop ups. All the while these for characters also have communication devices to keep each other updated on everything.

I don't think you can exactly one to one put Eleanore in Sartana's shoes, she is only seeking Ivan right now because she believes he can put an end to the crisis as is, not because she wants to have one more chance to talk to him. (Which, I honestly should speak to him first because I've been fairly patient to work up to that as is.)

With that in mind, no I wouldn't have Leopold talk the choir boy out of it, I'd have Eleanore herself do it, that is something she herself needs to do, she had Leopold meet with Aron because she knew that wasn't her domain, ultimately this is just down to the type of characters you have, I brought a few characters with me, you didn't... I'm not letting characters go to waste. And again, they don't know who Melonie is, thats why things are going the way they are, presumably the King knows who she should be which is why she's seeking him out. Ad I don't see where you getting the numbers, are you just counting my characters or allies Forest writes?

For me, my characters only, Eleanore only has Leopold and Louis... Ignore Chuvol, he's a left over that has no explicit loyalty to Eleanore or Louis, hopefully he can be a central character to be a part of the religious politics, which is why he was made.

And if we are including characters from someone else in Eleanore's corner, then is it not fair to say the same about Sartana and Melonie? Most of what is going on now wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for her, I'd say she has had a far greater impact than Sartana did, encouraged she may be she was still the one who did the deed and had it go so bad.

To be completely honest, If I took the same approach to technology usage in this RP, a good chunk of the plot wouldn't have happened, because rather than having to track down a court photographer and convince her to take pictures of Eleanore dancing with the Lunar King, I'd just have her take a picture with a smartphone and send it around.

Thats what you would have done, but that ignores a central reason why Eleanore wanted the court photographer to do it. She and Leopold were under the expectations that that is what Seraria is there for, because taking ones own pictures is a cultural no no, have the servant do it, plus they should be by all means professional at it.

That's indicative of exactly how much potential plot is being maimed by Eleonore's technology usage, that's not even accounting for having three other characters that allow her to be everywhere or the fact that they are also going around using communications technology.

I mean, complain about the communications all you wan,t but that was always gonna be there, it's just a two way radio with a button in case you can't speak. It isn't like she's making holograms or tracing footsteps, etc.

Recording technology is everywhere these days, to me it seems mind boggling that someone of Eleanore's status would have a couple of things on hand to make sure no one can take advantage of her, I limited her to a radio, I could easily have given her a whole sort of shit you couldn't even see, I limited her to 19th century technology for so I didn't completely eliminate someone from intrigue.

I guess there is just a divide on what we want, like I said I didn't come into the RP for backstabbing politics, if you told me that by joining the RP I'd have my character trying to solve a how done it frame up I would be confused as hell.

If you're not getting everything you wanted out of the RP so far, trust me I am as well, I just think we are ultimately coiled together, Sartana can't stop plotting, but she got hooked into something, I guess she shouldn't have worked with Melonie.

Because like, imagine if it was competently done, Sartana would succeed, Eleanore wouldn't even bother, an major threat to Sartana would be gone. But thats chaos theory in practice, Sartana chose a bad ally and now as you said, she has to juggle that, had I not unknowingly have Eleanore drink tea (As in, I didn't even think about the consequences of her drinking the tea.) then we'd at best have one conversation about Seraria and thats it, Seraria would have had her dance, there could have maybe been drama as she questions Eleanore about her sincerity, talk to Father Oswald, etc.

Heck, go back further, if I could I'd have written Eleanore to have been given a bit of info on the Frozen Forest, she wouldn't bother getting Seraria, she would have likely told the Lunar King to talk later, probably would have had her own stuff brought along if she knew just how little surveillance there is, or keep Leopold close. But I had them go in just expecting tit to be another ball, ultimately we get to where we are and with three or more people in an RP, it can go anywhere.

I just appreciate the chance to talk it over because my anxiety was having it gnaw on me far too much, I do think I started the RP fairly rough, so I can at least concede I could have done things better.

Edit:

Then to top it all off, Eleanore has no trade offs as a character at all. Sartana is strong, smart and beautiful, sure, but she basically comes from pseudo aristocracy, she's a hyped up commoner. Meanwhile Eleanore is not only smarter and stronger than Sartana (but I guess not as trained in martial arts?) she also has a literal galactic empire backing her up.

What trade offs she does have hasn't really been able to come out in part because she's been involved in the whole sickness angle. But she is an impatient person, the only reason she doesn't stop Aron from calling for his sailors to mobilize is because she is unwilling to wait for the Kingdom to do things itself, yes a part of it is because she doesn't have a lost of trust at the moment, but that only encourages her to give it her approval.

She's also pretty zealous, nice enough not to go burn the heretic, but enough to when given the chance to have serious disagreements with the clergy. Had we not gone through this poison plot line you wouldn't need to see Oswald be reluctant to give Sartana support. Not unless Eleanore gave an even worst chewing to the heathens not too far away, and also as shown in the story she has a bit of an anger, she can hide it by being smug, or attempt to hold it back, but she can only go so far, it's about to burst and I think I had that highlighted before my last big post.

She also thinks lowly of the Frozen Forest in regards to their civility, to her people Ivan is a noble barbarian king, but thats still being a barbarian, she doesn't like to think of them as barbarians, but as said in the first post is hard to escape that sort of thinking, even if she says otherwise, she still ultimately is gonna think about about them not being civilized, not like her. Just talking tot he Lunar King confirms that the Frozen Forest couldn't administer far away territory to save themselves, of her gifts she brings what is essentially a shiny battery, and the Yacht is being brought in because she is so sure she'll be his wife that she needs a little something extra because what the fuck with the Frozen Forest offer her, a private jet is kinda lame in comparison.

Hell, first page when she overhears Sartana shit talk Asha, she immediately thinks that Sartana is one of those people, she thinks she is deflecting that "well I've seen it before." but the fact that she says she can't judge Sartana harshly shows that subconsciously she just thinks Sartana is knuckle dragger. Because subconscious bigotry isn't always apparent and she is conditioned to think that even if she thinks she isn't being biased.

I admit a lot of this probably hasn't been too explicit, especially recently, but again one of her good traits, a desire for justice is in focus right now. But when this is all said and done you don't think she is gonna think poorly of Ivan's kingdom? Just imagine walking up and telling her that all Sartana had to do was tell the Guard Seraria did it, she'd probably think the natives are morons and she is gonna think how in the hell Ivan allowed his guards to be that incompetent without it reflecting on him, heck I'm pretty sure I had written she thinks lowly of them, might have been removed during the drafting, but I'm sure it's there.

I dunno, I just need a chance to have her talk down to someone she doesn't have any sense of charity for, but I don't think I've gotten a good chance to show her poor side. A part of this is just lack of experience, or lost experience more like it.

As for being smarter and stronger than Sartana? I wouldn't say that, I think she is certainly more knowledgeable about certain things than Sartana and likewise, and I can't say how strong she is compared to Sartana without knowing what Sartana can do, but if this is the case it is less she is specifically these things, and more like it's just her being a human from the 100th century, I don't want her to be too smart or strong compared to modern people, but I just think thats a reasonable aspect to have, it wouldn't really change if I made a character who was completely different, they'd still likely be fairly stronger and smarter than the average person today.

But I'm under the presumption Sartana herself is not average herself. Also Yali from Amenria is likely even stronger than the both of our characters, and is a super hero, pretty sure she is in the RP still, are you gonna raise the same concern with her? One would presume if she was involved with uncovering who was responsible there would still be a strength issue, and unlike Eleanore that is more specific to her than it is Eleanore.

As well, no, Eleanore doesn't have a galactic Empire supporting her, I dunno why people have this idea, but allow me to be a little explicit.

But the Holy Solar Empire is fuck huge, she might have been a somebody several centuries ago, but her father's duchy doesn't mean much shit anymore, what sort of fucks could any Electorate give to if she can marry some prim barbarian king, they'd likely laugh their ass off at the idea. Her father has all sort of enemies, some might just think of picking a fight with him because this might be seen as naked expansionism, hell there could be an investigation for it, Ivan might be given an Imperial title just to offset the chance Eleanore's dad could expand.

Eleanore only has her family behind her, and just barely, Louis as mentioned is a bit clingy and would have been directly attempting to subvert his sisters chances. Eleanore's dad only allowed her to go because she is his little pumpkin and he couldn't say no, but he gave her a pretty safe ship to get there, and gave her their most capable bodyguard, and told her to make it work, he likely wanted one of her siblings to be able to go to keep an eye on things and maybe lower Eleanore's chances, cuz it's a fling and he wants his daughter to not be sad at missing the chance.

So Eleanore only has herself, Leopold, Louis just barely, and whoever they can get to support them. No King on the other side of the Empire, which only covers a part of the Orion Arm, could give less than a fuck about her unless they happened to have a son of age available, and if so they'd wonder why the fuck she wants to marry a prim.

Eleanore is, hate to be cliché, very Mary sue. She is literally a genetically modified superhuman

No she is not, she is explicitly not, trust me if this was the case she wouldn't even be the slightest sick. Leopold is the superhuman, but thats because he is a Knight, he can afford not only to get power armor of high quality, but also make his body beyond human. What Eleanore is, is the product of centuries of selective breeding for good traits, there are centuries upon centuries of eugenics breeding the best people possible, does she have an ancestor who had a family after being augmented? Possibly, but not all of those augmentations are inheritable nor would they be dominant all the time.

She is quite literally farther from us, then we are from the Bronze Age Collapse, pretty sure the same stands at the start of the bronze age, thats a long time, and thats a long time for eugenics and shit to pick up. Like with the tech, I think I might be nerfing her here, then again not all of my nation is realistic, I mean just look at the aesthetic.

And this is one of those times I hate to have to agree with the complaint in regards to Mary Sue as a term.

Look, in regards to what Forest or anyone else writes, I can't help if they kiss her ass legitimately for little reason, but she isn't a Mary Sue.

I went over what flaws she had, those are nothing to admire and I and I can meet you half way to at least say I could show her faults better. She clearly has people who don't want her to be Queen because they doubt her, and they aren't shown as being wrong, the story hasn't admonished Oswald for giving Sartana a hint, Seraria didn't immediately cast Sartana aside when Sartana challenged Eleanore's character, Seraria actually had doubts, agency about how she felt.

As for people I control, her bodyguard has been the family retainer for years, and sees her as a niece or something, it would be strange if he didn't like her almost unconditionally, it would actually be a bad sign if he didn't, he's supposed to protect her after all. Louis is her slightly older brother, and they have a healthy relationship, and I'm pretty sure he has joked about her being stubborn and shit, I think in my alt post he even joked about her bad qualities, but again since I wanted to get this plot line closer to the finish line and you left it open, I said fuck it and went the other way.

Chuvol doesn't know who the fuck Eleanore is, he politely complimented her singing but has no loyalties to her or even Louis who he does know somewhat, you can't really comment on what he thinks of her until they meet.

Now before I continue, I think it is fair to say that she might not be as consistent as she is more recently, there was a fairly large break, and a smaller delay (or two I think?) and that is gonna impact the writing alone. Never mind that I haven't actively written a character in years prior to the RP, so if it doesn't seem I did a good job of showing certain things, I at least ask for some leniency here, I was fighting with myself as much as with the screen.

Lets look at other trends in Mary Sues.

Long name? Yes but thats customary for nobility, her name is actually shorter than what it could be.

Special powers? None yet, and if she did she wouldn't be unique about it, the Empire is full of people with special powers.

Is any bit of her a self insert? No, not at all, I'm struggling with religion at best, she is a Christian to the core. We disagree in many ways politically, socially, and religiously, the only thing I purposely added from me that she shares is our dislike of winter, but even in that the reasons are very different. She is forgiving in the sense she can forgive slights when warranted, I'm "forgiving" in the sense I don't really give a shit to hold grudges, and while Eleanore could never forgive someone who has wronged her, I HAVE forgiven people who wronged me in real life, for serious shit.

Is she described as beautiful with giving no effort? No, I think I said she is beautiful but other characters opinions are not mine to choose, she gives little effort to be graceful, etc. But thats because of explicit upbringing, and thats when she is composed, trust me she is at the limit of being composed, she is giving the knight guard a good show for now for example but if that goes side ways you're gonna see a couple of her faults come straight out.

Is the character strong despite being overweight or thin? The picture I chose may not show much, but I assure you she does have muscle and abs, she isn't frail looking, but I see little reason to talk about her body right now.

Is she explained in flowery language, but not any other character? I try to give everyone enough poetic descriptions when I can, have you seen my big ass post like at the start or the one that introduced Louis? In fact Louis is the one likely to get that treatment imo given his character concept as eccentric in character and flamboyant in presentation.

Lets see what else, I don't see her as a role model, she isn't expressing ideals that are enlightened compared to her peers, as in fellow people from at least her duchy. She hasn't openly insulted anyone and they just take it, Sartana sure as hell didn't sit for it. She isn't prone to violence that only affects people that deserve it, I'd say much like how Sartana can hold in the desire to punch someone, she can hold in her anger for a time. Is she always in the right? I would argue right now, not really, she and her bodyguard are supporting conflict within the nation, even if it is in a good cause it is being poorly handled. Had she been in clear mind she could have just waited for say, Seraria to be brought before her and then be straight up friendly and go from there, but she's impatient, easy to anger, and thinks lowly of the host, at least subconsciously....

She hates, essentially afraid cats and thats returned, so she is most certainly not good with animals. I don't think she gives out wisdom and knowledge like hot cake,s she might have a few wise words she heard before, but she's no philosopher or teacher. I think you might have something about how good she is at figuring things out, but I had that written as a detail she did for years, I don't remember if I specified it as something she developed or not, I'll leave it open because I'm not sure if I have yet specified how that came to be. She can sign and play guitar fairly really well, but this is something she learned and wasn't out of no where, and she arguably has much room to improve, she ain't out rocking a rockband any time soon.

I don't think any of her plans have really worked out as intended, the last big post even shows that she's trying to wrest control from Aron who was the one who took over what she considers her problem. I wouldn't say Sartana is evil, morally questionable yes, but not evil, and especially not because she opposes Eleanore. She sure as hell doesn't have something on hand to deal with her sickness , Leopold did but they used that on Aron in a case of "We can only choose one." You could make an argument for the radio and recording is just what she needs, but I'm pretty sure that was introduced to the problem, like she knew Seraria was taken advantage of in a separate issue, I can admit to not giving out a detailed list of everything she was bringing, but ironically thats only because I wanted to avoid the trope of listing a lot of shit, I'm still not sure the best way to handle that scenario.

I mean I think I did enough, we can continue down the list if you want, what I think you're looking for is that Eleanore hasn't been perfectly written and I've fallen into some writing traps, which I would be a lot more receptive too because I understands that I am increasingly rusty writing anything that doesn't read like a historical account or informational packet, so I can accept that sort of critique, such as "Oh, you probably should have foreshadowed this a bit sooner." or "I think you could have been a bit more explicit about this character flaw." or something like that.

I think the complaints about the number of personnel characters that I have to help Eleanore is kinda a poor argument, technology much the same.

I think the actually cruz of the argument is that you think I haven't done a great job selling the character writing, at least with how it should come off, and with that I can understand and would be more willing to concede, like a broken record I am still learning this all, I at least think I improved compared to page 1.

Like don't let the amount of writing fool anyone, a lot of that comes from experience in writing detailed sections of writing going into say, the relation of sports in a civilization, or a countries ethnic make up, the history of a country, and what not, there isn't a lot of character work done in that environment, I was and maybe still am a total relapsed newb in character writing. Which is why I am thankful for having the opportunity to learn everything over again in a character intensive RP like this.

and then on top of the mary sue stuff you have the copious amounts of help from secondary characters. I want to write out her having a deepening rivalry with Sartana, but at every moment I'm struck with how unbelievable it is given all of that.

And I mean the thing is, I didn't come in here to get a rivalry, we are seeking two things while tied to the hip, Eleanore just thought that Sartana might be a problem because of how she handles talking to other suitors, had Ashe been the one to do it, it would have been here Eleanore thought of as the barbarian. And I can't help that Forest things Eleanore deserves the biggest amount of interest, he allowed an FT country to participate, he ultimately writes how his characters respond and think, why did the Lunar King meet her first, I can read back to see why, but is the reason any more compelling than meeting with Sartana, or Ashe?

I know I've said Eleanore would now be willing to duel Sartana, even willing to seek her out and throw down the challenge, even willing to bring weapons into it. But thats because of what has happened since then, as said I wasn't looking to have a rival, and still wasn't until this whole sickness plot happened, now I feel stuck with something I didn't want, and am in RP thats fundamentally detached from everyone else, If I wasn't committed to the RP I would have dropped out when Forest asked if we should continue, I was even considering laying in the argument to start over, with the knowledge I gained in writing and to hopefully not get stuck in that sort of plot line again, even if it mean it had to rep the same character again, because as said before if I could I would much prefer a different character, because trust me, if you want a rival, a Roman princess from Constantinople would be perfect, history full of court bullshit literally bringing the Empire to it's knees.

Thats just not what I wanted, I was hoping after the Seraria talk that would be the end of it really.

And I think thats a part of the split here, I don't want this, but I feel compelled to take part in it, and I can't in good conscious just up and leave, not when I still find worth in the general story.[/spoiler]

I was... not expecting all this, I'll admit, but hopefully we can resolve this all amicably without a hard restart of the thread. (If that has to happen I'd make my part Asha 2: Electric Boogaloo since somehow all my other ladies are taken or the age gap would be weird, but that's neither here or there particularly at the moment.)

@Forest: Expect a post Saturday, and you have my permission to drive here to West Virginia and kick my ass if I don't make that happen.

As always, be kind to one another :)

Well from what I know this sis the second go around, so in a dark way that would be pretty funny.

But I wouldn't want that to happen, I'm pretty invested in Eleanore's development and this RP could (if at least partially) b a cannon story for my nation and for a future character. I just know that if we had to do this again I wouldn't use Eleanore, I'd use my Roman/Byzantine alt because thats just way more interesting to me, and it also has the benefit of a far smaller gap in power dynamics.

[The Frozen Forest]

I'm reading through this OOC discussion right now, and I'll get a response up after I've read it and given it some thought (within the next couple hours). My apologizes for the wait.

[The Holy Solar Empire]

I'm reading through this OOC discussion right now, and I'll get a response up after I've read it and given it some thought (within the next couple hours). My apologizes for the wait.

By all means take your time, I know a lot has been written.

[Kyrenaia]

Good evening, HSE,
I must admit, that I skipped a chunk of your posts, mainly because, well, I am not too much into OOC-Drama. One comment stood out to me, though:

[...]

I've just had a bit of anxiety lately, I feel like I'm stuck in a plotline I haven't enjoyed as much as I used to, I feel like I haven't been able to actually do what I came into do, I feel like I'm judged with only one person in the whole RP I actually am involved with, no content with any other suitor for example...where are the Nova interactions for example, nothing against Saucer, not their fault but like, I just feel that this is not the RP I was expecting.

[...]

...that is, to be honest, not completely Scorn's or TFF's or the other's (myself included) fault, but also yours. There were enough chances for Eleanore to approach any of the other suitors, like Brettenwald, PPC and I did, and have a fun conversation. Now, the plotlines are a bit too advanced and everyone is too deep into their own kerfuffles to change that as rapidly as one would like, but yeah... sorry. That one's on you, too.

I do not believe Eleanore to have an unfair advantage with her additional support - after all, you said Léopold would be along in the app, much like I did with the Handmaidens and Marla or with Hisa. TFF also apparently allowed Louis to arrive and crash the party. Scorn had the same chance when he apped (and to my understanding still has it to some extend?). He didn't use it, not our problem.
As for the accusation of Eleanore being a Mary Sue... Mary Sue is one of these wonderful buzzwords people like to throw around, the meaning differing from person to person, from fandom to fandom, to some extend. Scorn, if you have any more pronounced critique of any of the characters, be they Eleanore or one of mine (especially one of mine, I always look for constructive criticism), be a bit more concrete, please.

Please take this post with a good swig of "I'm not the OP"-juice. And I am sorry about your pizzas, HSE.

[The Holy Solar Empire]

...that is, to be honest, not completely Scorn's or TFF's or the other's (myself included) fault, but also yours. There were enough chances for Eleanore to approach any of the other suitors, like Brettenwald, PPC and I did, and have a fun conversation. Now, the plotlines are a bit too advanced and everyone is too deep into their own kerfuffles to change that as rapidly as one would like, but yeah... sorry. That one's on you, too.

1. That was just an example, not saying I couldn't have made an attempt, but I'm gonna push back a little and say it would have been a bit of a select time, mind you Saucer also had Nova go on a plot line of their own that took them out for a while, so without checking when that all matched up I can't really say how much this is the case, the point wasn't specifically about Nova, or even just writing interactions, and more that I feel Eleanore only really has had a chance to interact with Sartana. Which itself isn't about "Well why didn't you do x or y? And more of just how I feel whats encouraged, again a lot has happened in a short amount of time.

If I didn't feel we were already closing in on night one I might not be as concerned, I do plan on meeting with other characters, but again where can we reasonably go from there. I dunno, it just seems that when I'm ready to move on, I get approached like walking through tall grass. "Right now seems like a good time to have Eleanore to talk to the priest, I've built that plan up, should be ready next post, oh aaaaand she is about to be force greeted."

I do not believe Eleanore to have an unfair advantage with her additional support - after all, you said Léopold would be along in the app, much like I did with the Handmaidens and Marla or with Hisa. TFF also apparently allowed Louis to arrive and crash the party. Scorn had the same chance when he apped (and to my understanding still has it to some extend?). He didn't use it, not our problem.

True, and I assume you skipped it which again, fair. But what was intended with Louis is that he was supposed to try and foil Eleanore, if not right away, then eventually when he thought "You know what, nah, my sister is to good for this place." And trust me, he is still gonna look for every way to make sure Eleanore doesn't marry Ivan, but now his dynamic is gonna be more complex, especially right now as they're still trying to figure out who is responsible for the lax thing. So he's only technically helping Eleanore right now, and thats more out of familial unconditional support, less his own motives.

As for the accusation of Eleanore being a Mary Sue... Mary Sue is one of these wonderful buzzwords people like to throw around, the meaning differing from person to person, from fandom to fandom, to some extend. Scorn, if you have any more pronounced critique of any of the characters, be they Eleanore or one of mine (especially one of mine, I always look for constructive criticism), be a bit more concrete, please.

I have personalty always had a pretty concrete idea of what a Mary Sue should be, it really has lost a lot of meaning these days in my opinion, I'll admit my character writing as far as I know might very well be amateur, after all my last two years of writing has been focused on writing accounts, check out how I write my factbooks, especially for Aionos Rhomania, it reads almost like a article.

So I think if there is any criticism to be levied, it's certainly my character writing, I don't have a lot of self confidence in it. Write up a narrative of a civilization, you can probably tell I got that down to a T, super confident to that, consistency write a character with all their strengths and flaws? Not so confident, at least when I started out.

And I am sorry about your pizzas, HSE.

You have no idea how pissed I got about the pizza's, at first I thought the first one might be fine and I was being overly cautious (Because recently I ate something and it fucked me up, so I don't risk shit anymore.) but when I taste tested the second it was awful, it tasted greasy and sorta stale...

I was so hyped for some pizza, and it ironically made me realize I had a lot of baggage that I just had to let out, and I think I did so in a healthy way.

A part of em tries to be fair when I always respond or give an opinion because I don't want to just blindly argue against any criticism, but I also don't wanna be stepped on, which is why I try to give as much credit as possible, because ultimately I'm just too friendly a person, I don't really like drama or confrontation, because I have a short temper and that is always kinda in the back of my mind, but I hope I handled everything okay.

Also if it hasn't been made apparent, when I'm giving my honest thoughts I tend to be long winded, jut imagine if could direct that to writing in general.

[Scornerse]

I regret using the phrase Mary sue as it appears to have caused some blanking out on everything in the post that preceded it.

My concern was that Eleanore has no discernable shortcomings relative to every other character.