WorldVision Song Contest 83 | OOC | SIGNUPS CLOSED

[Wack-i]

Nation Name: The United States and Territories of Wack-i
Official Broadcaster: Wack-i General Broadcasting 2
Song Title: Edernwackina
Artist(s) Name(s): John Aoniks McKoisterhousen

Tune: Tune of Spanish Flea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpOXQl9WwT0

[Axuva]

Nation Name: Axuva
Official Broadcaster: TPNB-X
Song Title: Running Wld
Artist(s) Name(s): Euna G

Tune: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKvAE2RZ6O8

[Antenovaria]

Nation Name: Antenovaria
Official Broadcaster: ATN
Song Title: Sirens
Artist(s) Name(s): SOUNDS OF SONG

Tune: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDUOLz9ZL2g

[Mister X]

Cannot emphasise how strongly I am not only against the televote, but the way I feel it's been strong-armed into implementation based on a trial that was shaky at best. I do feel as though it's being hidden away through 27 other proposals at the same time and it's such a fundamentally terrible idea to my mind anyway, for concerns that haven't really been addressed. The only positive to it is having the "two phases" you get in ESC since 2016, but Nekoni's proposal on that appears to have been roundly ignored even though it's far better than what is being proposed here.

Please. VOTE NO.

MrX

[Elejamie]

Cannot emphasise how strongly I am not only against the televote, but the way I feel it's been strong-armed into implementation based on a trial that was shaky at best. I do feel as though it's being hidden away through 27 other proposals at the same time and it's such a fundamentally terrible idea to my mind anyway, for concerns that haven't really been addressed. The only positive to it is having the "two phases" you get in ESC since 2016, but Nekoni's proposal on that appears to have been roundly ignored even though it's far better than what is being proposed here.

Please. VOTE NO.

MrX

Not just that but it's not really that necessary in the first place. There are quite a few reasons why the Eurovision has separate voting for juries and televote but the most relevant one to my argument is that groups of musical experts have different tastes to those watching the contest at home. Case in point, Poland 2016 which scored only SEVEN points with the juries but 222 with the general populace, as well as Australia the following contest which received all but two of its points from the juries (and even so, the two points only came from the Danish public). Here? It's literally the same person giving two separate sets of points, biases and all, it's just that there's now a formula behind one of those sets of points. Looking at the last WV and all the votes that came in, I can say that in real life there'd be a few entries that'd bomb with the critics but would be absolutely adored by the voting public, likewise there'd be a few entries that the juries would enjoy but the people at home watching wouldn't (admittedly my main entry would be an example of the latter; I'd give an example of the former but I'm worried about it seeming baity), compared to how the televoting and the jury voting were essentially mirrors of each other.

Not to mention that, in my honest opinion, we don't really NEED to overcomplicate things. After all, the WorldVision comes across more as something you can get right into. You just sign up (maybe fill in the form if you want to), write your entry and, when you're told to, give your votes in the 1-8, 10, 12 method that the real life Eurovision has. It's a contest that comes across as something that newcomers could easily understand and get into. Compared to the World Hit Festival which is less forgiving. Like you have to draft your entry into a specific thread, vote in a certain way, you can't really bid to host the competition unless the winner declines to, so on. That's not a dig at the WHF, by the way, it's just how I see the contest given that I have no real interest in participating in it (but if you do then that's alright by me). Still, this comes across an unnecessary re-invigoration that'll run the risk of killing the contest, much like how a whole load of changes in a well-loved TV show usually results in that season being the last one.

Don't get me wrong, there should be some changes here at WorldVision, but they should be more to fix how broken the contest's gotten, especially in recent editions. Nor am I against the inclusion of a televote in general, it's just that I prefer it to be optional and something people can include in their bids. At best, this whole vote should it pass could lead to a rash of people running for Committee just to overturn the damn thing, at worst it's just going to cause a mass exodus (either to the WHF or starting a THIRD contest).

[Todlichebujoku]

but they should be more to fix how broken the contest's gotten, especially in recent editions.

Hello! Can you elaborate on this?

[Kalosia]

Question — since the end of the current WVC term is inevitable, would the outgoing committee be able to train incoming committee members or perhaps provide some sort of template to assist with the televoting process?

While I support the general idea of a televote, my main concern has its roots in my most recent membership in the WVC, whose composition was seen by some as inefficient and passive. I think the implementation of the televote looks great now but I'm worried that a future committee might not be capable of keeping up with the process.

If there is a way to address this before the end of the current term, then having a televote sounds fair to me.

[Ertzei Kishim]

Well from those who are publicly advocating no, I agree that there isn't a need to do it, but that's not the point. This is a fictional online contest which we do for fun! If we add something which takes everyone maybe 10-20 minutes more to calculate, but then it adds a whole new level of depth to the contest, it creates tension and excitement, and brings people together for a live reveal, that's fun to me! I'm not going to talk about the merits of the proposal as that is for people to judge for themselves, but having taken into consideration people's thoughts and ideas, I am proud of what we have proposed. I think if you want this fictional contest which we all do for fun, to maybe be a bit more fun, then I suggest you vote yes.

snip

I think that's something which is absolutely required and would be done. If it were implemented it would be a committee responsibility, so all the new committee members would have access to the resources needed to implement the televote!

EDIT: I have committee confirmation that this would be the case.

[Elejamie]

but they should be more to fix how broken the contest's gotten, especially in recent editions.

Hello! Can you elaborate on this?

Well...

• How one-sided the contest's gotten, namely how the "big nations" might as well have first place handed to them even before they post whereas if one of the smaller nations provides a brilliant tune and exceptional RP they'll probably be lucky if they finish in the lower half of the top ten. I get why they do so well but, as the world of sport (and probably Ireland winning four times in the 90s, including three in a row) has proven to us time and time again, if you get the same people winning over and over again then it just sucks the fun out of the whole thing; case in point, the NBA from 2014-2018 and the NFL since the mid-2000s.
• The over-reliance of Eurovision 2020 entries and a certain variety of generic dance tune that I've talked about in the past, instead of trying to stand out or mix things up or anything to bring any audial diversity to the competition. As Nekoni pointed out a few months ago (albeit about the possibility of getting the best televote result): "if people want to do well, it almost pays to not be divisive or bring anything new to the table". Yes, I get personal preferences and all that, but it wouldn't hurt if everyone tried to broaden their horizons, both in selecting tunes to use and voting for entries. Yes, I get we're all disappointed Eurovision 2020 was cancelled but that's not really any excuse to try and give anyone who uses a song from it a ton of points, especially since we had our own ranking and a couple of songs that did well at the WV sucked at the rankings; instead, give it high marks because you thought it was a good song.
• For that matter, the over-reliance of trends to the point where all the novelty just gets sucked out, rather than either sticking to something basic or trying to innovate in some other way. For example, the 360° stages, which we've already had two of in a row (Britonisea in WV81 and Ertzei Kishim in WV82) and we've now got the potential of a third. They're not bad, my only real criticisms are that they can be hard to work with in the unfun way and the possibility of having to scrap a perfectly good RP idea because it involves a back wall, but they should really be used sparingly instead of over and over again.
• How the Committee has essentially become an ivory tower, as examplified by the fact we're now having regular special editions and right at the moment holding a vote on a permanent televote without even asking those on the forums what they think. Granted we're more active on Discord but, as a number of us (myself, Ethane, Mister X) have pointed out, not everyone is able to get on it or even has an account. And the less said about the arguments that followed that conversation, the better. It's probably why Mister X and myself have explained WHY we're against this permanent televote idea in this thread instead of keeping it off-site.

Yes, I get that this makes me a bit of a sore loser and all that, especially considering that I finished behind two of the aforementioned "big nations" in the past (lost to Polk in WV75 and lost to you in WV77) and recently I finished fifth in the last WorldVision behind two/maybe three big nations and Llalta (who used an ESC2020 entry for his winner). But here's the thing, though. I'm not exactly wrong. These, among a couple of other reasons, are reasons why I'm starting to fall out of love with the WorldVision and, if it weren't for the fact that my country's neutral so II's kind of useless to me, there haven't really been any interesting competitions in NS Sports (though the new RLWC's starting soon I don't know WHEN exactly because no deadline as of writing) and for the past several months P2TM has been full of RPs I've had no real interest participating in, I'd probably call it quits again.

[La Montevideo]

honestly, i actually like the idea of the televote (idk why)

[Todlichebujoku]

Hello! Can you elaborate on this?

Well...

• How one-sided the contest's gotten, namely how the "big nations" might as well have first place handed to them even before they post whereas if one of the smaller nations provides a brilliant tune and exceptional RP they'll probably be lucky if they finish in the lower half of the top ten. I get why they do so well but, as the world of sport (and probably Ireland winning four times in the 90s, including three in a row) has proven to us time and time again, if you get the same people winning over and over again then it just sucks the fun out of the whole thing; case in point, the NBA from 2014-2018 and the NFL since the mid-2000s.

Just looking back, WV65-74 had a nice spread of new winners, and even just last edition we had relative newbie Llalta win for the first time. There is definitely always a chance for a new nation to make it to the top, and I do agree that name recognition does play a certain role in how people vote... but even debutants can still hit the top 5- actually Llalta hit 5th place on his debut.

I suppose there is a sort of selection bias where those who have participated the longest and most successfully tend to have the instinct for what goes down well in the contest, and therefore have an advantage vs. newer players who are just sending what they like without the knowledge of what the rest of the players might like; this might also have something to do with tunes that you think are brilliant, that may not be received as brilliant by many others here, sadly. Overall, I don't really see this as something that anyone can police or change with rules. It comes down to creating a solid overall package of earnestly written RP (no blatant filler), decently good lyrics, and most importantly, a tune that is memorable and enjoyable for the majority.

• The over-reliance of Eurovision 2020 entries and a certain variety of generic dance tune that I've talked about in the past, instead of trying to stand out or mix things up or anything to bring any audial diversity to the competition. As Nekoni pointed out a few months ago (albeit about the possibility of getting the best televote result): "if people want to do well, it almost pays to not be divisive or bring anything new to the table". Yes, I get personal preferences and all that, but it wouldn't hurt if everyone tried to broaden their horizons, both in selecting tunes to use and voting for entries. Yes, I get we're all disappointed Eurovision 2020 was cancelled but that's not really any excuse to try and give anyone who uses a song from it a ton of points, especially since we had our own ranking and a couple of songs that did well at the WV sucked at the rankings; instead, give it high marks because you thought it was a good song.

Well many of us are in the ESC fanbase, and of course in the first half of the year there is ALWAYS major Eurovision dominance. And often throughout the year. I personally avoid using ESC tunes, particularly with my main nation, and I really don't think this is a new thing or something that can be reasonably changed. ESC songs have been a major component of WV and its winners ever since tunes were introduced. Additionally, there are differences between those who participate in WV and those who actually submitted ESC rankings, and the influence of new lyrics and packaging with RP is a huge influence on how tunes are received in the WV context.

• For that matter, the over-reliance of trends to the point where all the novelty just gets sucked out, rather than either sticking to something basic or trying to innovate in some other way. For example, the 360° stages, which we've already had two of in a row (Britonisea in WV81 and Ertzei Kishim in WV82) and we've now got the potential of a third. They're not bad, my only real criticisms are that they can be hard to work with in the unfun way and the possibility of having to scrap a perfectly good RP idea because it involves a back wall, but they should really be used sparingly instead of over and over again.

To be honest sometimes I just ignore a stage
And trends, well, they come and go, as trends do. As far as I can tell, you are complaining about host bids, and this is something very much based on what people find cool or interesting. This is really something you should solve in chat, talk about stages you do enjoy, inspire others, and maybe even send your own host bid! I believe any WVC action regarding this is overreaching, at the end of the day this is a problem that is very fleeting and ultimately comes down to talking with people who plan to bid, or alternatively even being a trendsetter yourself.

• How the Committee has essentially become an ivory tower, as examplified by the fact we're now having regular special editions and right at the moment holding a vote on a permanent televote without even asking those on the forums what they think. Granted we're more active on Discord but, as a number of us (myself, Ethane, Mister X) have pointed out, not everyone is able to get on it or even has an account. And the less said about the arguments that followed that conversation, the better. It's probably why Mister X and myself have explained WHY we're against this permanent televote idea in this thread instead of keeping it off-site.

First of all, having regular special editions is something that is 1. an opt-in occurence, and 2. voted for by the most active members of the community. This does not effect the regular running of the contest. I agree there should have been some better communication forumside, but ultimately considering the majority of active players are on the Discord server (and especially those who would actually participate in a special edition), focusing on the Discord server for this consultation made sense.

As for the televote idea, I agree that the televote feedback and discussion and feedback phase could have been communicated earlier and more clearly on the server. The discussion thus far has been a very heated and emotion-laden one, verging on toxic from both parties involved, and I will admit this has heavily dissuaded me from being involved in the process. I can't speak for the others, but the loaded language and anger by one player especially has left me deciding to distance myself from the discussion, particularly as we have a loaded history and I have spent enough breath in conflicts with him. I suspect that the other WVC members, aside from Kish, have been repelled by the heat and drama of these interactions and thus much of the workload regarding the televote has fallen on one member, which seems to have led to the lack of transparency. Ideally the conversation would have been one of measured emotion and balance, so that one person's anger and the lashing back by others do not dominate the conversation, and all would feel welcome and involved in the discussion, with more viewpoints included and discussed, and more people interested in being involved with the implementation of the vote so that it is presented well.

Yes, I get that this makes me a bit of a sore loser and all that, especially considering that I finished behind two of the aforementioned "big nations" in the past (lost to Polk in WV75 and lost to you in WV77) and recently I finished fifth in the last WorldVision behind two/maybe three big nations and Llalta (who used an ESC2020 entry for his winner). But here's the thing, though. I'm not exactly wrong. These, among a couple of other reasons, are reasons why I'm starting to fall out of love with the WorldVision and, if it weren't for the fact that my country's neutral so II's kind of useless to me, there haven't really been any interesting competitions in NS Sports (though the new RLWC's starting soon I don't know WHEN exactly because no deadline as of writing) and for the past several months P2TM has been full of RPs I've had no real interest participating in, I'd probably call it quits again.

As much as I was very lucky in my first 3 wins, wins are unpredictable and shouldn't constitute the entirety of your self-worth and sense of success. Winning is sometimes a stroke of luck among the top 3, particularly when it comes to disqualifications and ties. You have made it to second place twice- while I understand being so, so close to winning is disheartening, realize that you've come this far (2 silver medals!!), and that this was all less than 10 editions ago. I think you are on the right path- don't be afraid to try out new things, new ways of doing things, and pay attention to where your musical taste meshes with the community- and I can see you easily winning in the near future. And remember, we are here to have fun- chasing wins is all good but when it begins to damage your enjoyment, perhaps it is time to reflect on and reconsider your approach to the contest.

[Besen]

Hi all.

Just coming on here to address a few things and concerns from members of the community. I think that it's good to have a non-confrontational dialogue to discuss issues and ways to move forward progressively without harming the experience of participants.

Regarding the televote, I think that the discussions that have taken place have clearly shown there is genuine desire and attraction to the idea of this specific change. I would point to the reactions of several members (exemplified in Kish's post about his final thoughts on the system after the 82nd contest) during the points reveal, to prove that it is a positive and exciting progression for the competition. As Kish has also said just a few hours earlier, us coming together for the WVSC is only meant for a bit of fun, and the televote, although it has ruffled feathers and caused a fair bit of collision in terms of disagreements and such, is a very fitting choice and something that I'm genuinely sure if the consultation is voted through, will be looked back on and seen as a good decision.
I think that by even having a vote in the first place, we as the committee are proving that at the very least we are satisfying the actual desires of the members that believe we should go forward with this. We've taken feedback seriously and given relevant and important information here on the forums, and have encouraged new members, old members, and enthusiastic participants to engage with this vote. It would be giving our community a disservice if we didn't at least hold this vote that we are currently in the middle of (please see here to have a look at how to be a part of this very simple decision).
I know that certain members have expressed appreciation that we have taken onboard the various criticisms that have been given to the committee, and adapted in the direction of inclusivity for everyone to be involved in a dialogue, discord or here on the forums.

And now, I want to indirectly address something that I didn't actually believe was an issue until I saw that people had negative perceptions of the previous few winners and, more specifically the nations that have provided the wins. I genuinely hold the view that members using Eurovision tunes and then going on to do well or indeed, win, has no correlation to the fact that they are Eurovision songs. Think about it, this is a Eurovision-based online RP contest where the vast majority of it's participants consider themselves as fans of the ESC. So, of course, participants are going to vote for these songs, but not because they're from Eurovision, but because we genuinely see them as quality and want them to succeed, just like any other song, doesn't matter where it comes from.

I want to say as well that just because so called "big nations" have been winning lately does not mean that they are any less deserving than any other entries from their prospective contests - it just means that the majority of nations believed that they had a quality package that deserved to do well. I can say for sure, from my own point of view, that I do not take into account the reputation or the experience of a nation when giving points, I simply rank in a way that I feel represents how I feel about each entry. I might add here as well that our most recent champion winning certainly disproves this idea, I'm really proud of them and I hope they know that the win was completely and utterly deserved.

Thanks

[Britonisea]

D'ya know what's funny? If I throwback to like fifty or so editions ago, I used to send entries which kept me on the right-hand side of the scoreboard, no one wanted to necessarily vote for me and so over the fifty editions since I simply improved. Sure, at the time I did complain that I didn't do well, but as I grew up, I knew not to complain about not winning with a song that I thought would win - even though I sent that entry nearly 10 editions ago (cough cough). Now that I am at a stage in my WorldVision/World Hit Festival career where I think that I'm doing well (I mean for me this was always the end goal, I didn't want to be that person that was at the bottom of the scoreboard edition after edition), it seems as though certain people have a problem with that. So people have a problem with me not doing well, and people have a problem with me doing well - noted.

Since we're doing bullet points, I might as well join in! Let's hope everyone who decided to post here with a reply reads what I have to say - hopefully I get some replies to it.

• It's really funny how suddenly we are being strong-armed into the televote when we were strong-armed into voting a different way of selecting hosts. We didn't have a consultation about that and for editions, I've certainly been against the FPTP system that we have for host voting. Since its introduction, I've hardly voted for host and in editions such as these where there are 7 bids, I think its totally unfair to get people to simply pick their favourite and that's it. While you do pick your favourite using the 12-10-8 system, I would've felt a lot more comfortable voting for bids if I had the option of my top three. The point is really, there has been a consultation and the decision is that the televote is here to stay - in the past the community has not had the community to give their opinions about topics regarding WorldVision. This is the first time a committee has been so open to change the contest since committees before have been all mouth. I really don't understand why some people are so mad about the idea. The WorldVision Song Contest isn't perfect and there's always room to change the contest up. Some might find it fun to do a basic entry, listen to other's, vote and sod off to the next contest, but after doing the same thing for years and years and years, it gets so tiresome. The contest has no flavour - whatsoever. To those who oppose the voting change, where are your ideas to make the contest fun for the majority (you included - let's make it fun for everyone!) of those participating? I've seen a lot of anger and not a lot of problem-solving.
• Nekoni's idea is fine and I haven't ignored it but then again, its an idea already being done at another RP contest so why should we copy that. Also, when I bought up this idea back in WV50, it was vehemently opposed to - so at least after 33 editions, there's some progress in our attitudes towards making the contest more exciting and fun for everyone.

Now specifically to Elejamie to be honest, because a lot of things you've said I disagree with (cue Cilla Black, surprise, surprise!) or would like some more clarification on behalf of the whole community. Though whoever agrees with his points, I'd really enjoy discourse with you.

• Now the first thing that I must point out is the reliance of Eurovision Song Contest entries full-stop. One thing that I have found annoying in recent years is how its being mentioned that ESC songs tend to do well at the contest. When it comes to the Eurovision songs that I've sent and gone on to win (though, I've never sent a Eurovision Song and rather the National Final songs), of the Britonish entries, they've all been selected through Vha Mehlodhivestoile and - to give you a bit of background on that since you seemed to miss voting on that (no biggie, thanks to the 17 users that did vote though; most of whom ended up participating in WV81), there were over 25 songs in the National Selection and only like two or three were NF-related songs and I think only one went to the Grand Final, and ended up winning. In Vha Mehlodhivestoile I try to limit the amount of National Final songs in my NF, but sometimes they just seem to do well. The thing I enjoy about my NF is that I get opinions from a lot of people and it just so happens that they like entries that are modern europop/dance pop. You can't expect to send a song in a genre that isn't enjoyed by a majority of the people that participate and then complain that certain nations do better than others. If you want to send the types of songs you send - or whoever sends - that's on you. You're not entitled to do well or win because you like your song/you think you've put in a lot of effort into it. At the end of the day, it's about what others like because that's how you get the points.
• And before you say "Oh so you send these songs because you do well", well, no, I don't send songs you wouldn't hear in Britonisea ICly which is basically my music taste. Some people have music tastes that are more popular/acceptable by the community, and that's not a bad thing at all? This is also the case in Eurovision as well. Some, let's say, different ethnic songs that go to Eurovision usually stay in the Semi-Finals - its just the way it is. Maybe the so-called Big Nations have music tastes that are enjoyed by a majority of people? Is that their faults? No. They're participating and trying to do well/win as much as you are and no one should be stopped from winning multiple times in a row. If they have the best entry of the edition, they have the best entry of the edition...quote on quote, "we don't really NEED to overcomplicate things".
• I'd also really love for Nekoni to explain what he meant by that quote, especially since he Top 2'd recently.
• Maybe also, you should provide the names of the "Big Nations" who you seem to have a problem with as well...

Yes, I get that this makes me a bit of a sore loser and all that, especially considering that I finished behind two of the aforementioned "big nations" in the past (lost to Polk in WV75 and lost to you in WV77) and recently I finished fifth in the last WorldVision behind two/maybe three big nations and Llalta (who used an ESC2020 entry for his winner). But here's the thing, though. I'm not exactly wrong. These, among a couple of other reasons, are reasons why I'm starting to fall out of love with the WorldVision and, if it weren't for the fact that my country's neutral so II's kind of useless to me, there haven't really been any interesting competitions in NS Sports (though the new RLWC's starting soon I don't know WHEN exactly because no deadline as of writing) and for the past several months P2TM has been full of RPs I've had no real interest participating in, I'd probably call it quits again.

• I'm really happy you understand that you do come across as a bit of a sore loser. Finishing fifth is actually a dream for many nations participating and you seem to have a problem with it. I finished on the right-hand side of the scoreboard of WHF and whilst, sure, I was upset about it, I didn't cry about it and turned it into an IC push to do well and did a little show and news RP to make myself feel better, and just tried harder at WHF52 - here's hoping I do better ) but I've got to stop you here. Llalta worked very hard on his entry and managed to win the WorldVision for the first time last edition. For you to basically insinuate that he won because he sent a Eurovision song, I think, is quite disrespectful. Regardless of whether it was a Eurovision song or not, it is still a song and he has the right to send any song he wants to. Say he listens to a lot of Eurovision songs? I do. Must he have to venture out of the Eurovision bubble to find songs that won't upset you? Not really because it is a song he enjoyed...regardless of whether it was a Eurovision song or not. This reminds me of another incident when a "Big Nation" won the contest and someone claimed that they voted in a certain way to win. It's actually so rude and people can get really hurt by accusations such as these. I kinda feel accused of purposefully trying to do well as well by sending ESC songs and that doesn't sit right with me (esp because I've churned out over 100, maybe up to 200 entries in both WV/WHF and most of them aren't ESC related).

Finally, something else that annoyed me...

For that matter, the over-reliance of trends to the point where all the novelty just gets sucked out, rather than either sticking to something basic or trying to innovate in some other way. For example, the 360° stages, which we've already had two of in a row (Britonisea in WV81 and Ertzei Kishim in WV82) and we've now got the potential of a third. They're not bad, my only real criticisms are that they can be hard to work with in the unfun way and the possibility of having to scrap a perfectly good RP idea because it involves a back wall, but they should really be used sparingly instead of over and over again.

• You know for the past few months since I've hosted, you've constantly (maybe subconsciously) made me feel bad for putting the stage I put in my host bid. It also makes me think you probably were the only person to vote against me (but that's fine because we're all entitled to our opinions), but I must say that after having editions and editions of the same thing, why shouldn't things be changed up - we don't need to be so conservative about it. What I've also been saying since the start is that I made sure that my WV81 bid did accommodate those who wanted to have the bog-standard stage set up. My WV81 stage did have a LED back wall in two locations that you could've used but perhaps you didn't bother to read the host bid or check the videos out. I also said that the audience behind the main circular stage only had a hand full of people in front of lights (a la Lisbon 2018) which was a back wall. Moreover, no one stopped you from bringing your own LEDs and placing them on the stage - I literally put a mirrored wall on my stage to block the (few) audience members from the back to make it seem like the stage ended there. If you don't want to be creative, that's fine, but please don't try and shit on other people's creative ideas. You've got to adapt to the host not the host adapt to you LOL.

I assume you have LOADS to say back to me since you were going to vent the other day and decided not to but I've been holding a lot of this stuff in and I thought I should have my piece here where everyone can see. Period.

Oh and also don't speak about how hard World Hit Festival is when you "don't give a shit about it" which you said on the Discord Channel. WHF is a lot more simple than you make it out to be and tbh its not related to the topic so the Festival didn't need to be bought up at all.

[Polkopia]

Hello! Can you elaborate on this?

snip

Hi, I'd like to chime in here because I have a few issues with some of the points you've raised in this post.

...namely how the "big nations" might as well have first place handed to them...

Since you later referred to me as a "big nation", I'll point out that no, I might as well not have first place handed to me. I work hard on my entries. Every edition I have to dig for hours over various online platforms and look for tunes that I feel as if it would suit my NF. I'll also add that, prior to WV75, I hadn't won for 25 editions, it had taken a while for Kish to win prior to his last victory, etc. so I feel as if though it's an incorrect assumption to say that all the "big nations" win all the time.

The over-reliance of Eurovision 2020 entries and a certain variety of generic dance tunes...

This whole point just rubs me the wrong way, especially since a lot of nations that use these "dance" tunes use a National Final to select their entries, meaning that other nations are having a say in what another nation is choosing to send in the contest. I know myself, Kish, Brit, and Iz, to name a few, use a variety of genres and music styles when we're holding our NFs and if these so-called dance tracks win these National Finals, then there really isn't much to be done at that point. Everyone here has their own musical preferences and every edition of this contest serves as a way to find a tune that blends all of our musical tastes together in some way.

For that matter, the over-reliance of trends...

I agree with you here in the sense that I personally don't care for the 360° stage as opposed to the traditional stage with the LED backdrop. However that doesn't mean that they should be disallowed or anything? A host bid is just that and you have the option to vote for whichever bid you want, and the stage is as much of a deciding factor as any in what you choose to vote for.

[Kalosia]

...namely how the "big nations" might as well have first place handed to them even before they post whereas if one of the smaller nations provides a brilliant tune and exceptional RP they'll probably be lucky if they finish in the lower half of the top ten.

So I have a feeling you might see me as a Big Nation and if true, I just wanted to stop by and say real quick that, looking at my past participations, you have more podium placings than I do in the past 10 editions. Sometimes how things feel doesn't align with what the statistics actually say, I get that.

The one podium placing I have is my only win in the past 30 editions and it was also the one time that I sent something daring/different from what is conventionally favoured. So risk can really pay off sometimes so I'd encourage you to keep trying!

Other than that, I think the people above have made really strong points and I don't really have anything useful to add. If anything... it's nice that we're keeping these conversations up here in the forums, it's so draining having to discuss this discourse on the Discord.

[Todlichebujoku]

I realize I didn't touch upon Ele's mention of dance tunes, but Brit and Polk have covered that very well so consider them my response to this point, again not something that the WVC should be policing.

[Mister X]

I don’t think there was any insinuation that the WVC should police tunes, merely the fact that the Discord server has created a bubble that relies in almost a political “inner sanctum” (I don’t really want to use the Dominic Cummings phrase of “SW1 bubble”) and to that extent nations’ WorldVision entries have almost merged into each other’s. There is a real lack of variety seen these days, and this won’t be helped with a televote which will absolutely kill off the joke entries for good. And yes I have a vested interest in that with Missus X, but that doesn’t defeat the point. One of the most fun things I enjoyed about this (particularly in the past)? Laughing my head off at some of the joke entries: “Cumdump Slumber Nine” (Kasanova-Koratica WV47), “The Execution Song” (Gregoryisgodistan WV30) to name but two. They’re hilarious. I find them funny. This is going to be the end of these as too many people don’t like them. It’s a real shame that we’re effectively losing the light-hearted elements of WorldVision. The whole thing has not been thought through at all.

Brit, if you had an issue with changing the host voting system you should have raised it at the time - or indeed in any of the 30 editions since.

[Nekoni]

I wasn't gonna dip my toe in further as I'm going through something surpiciously similar to on another site, but here we are. I'm gonna underline here on in that, whilst I will be voting No, I'm not coming from the "WV is broken and needs fixing" side that Elejamie is coming from, there's quite a bit of what he put down that I actually disagree with, to be honest. My personal misgivings are that you're changing the formula about and giving us a vote on whether to make it permanent at the same time, before we've even had a chance to see if the fixes work. I'm not entirely closed to the idea of it, nah, I'd probably have given it a couple more trials before jumping in with a referendum.

The changes you've earmarked for '83 are improvements that I did poke at a little in the debrief at '82, so I'm happy to see those there. I'm really, really happy to see that now there's a free reign of what the televote scores actually mean, instead of just a forced "expanded" version of the standard 1-12 scale. I think a lot of my criticisms of the '82 televote have been nulled out with this, so I'm a LOT more receptive to the new system now I know what changes you've made. However, I still don't love the idea of nailing down the system before you've given it more than one set of data. I also didn't like how sudden it got introduced, I think really this should have been nailed down right on the first post of the thread of the contest instead of an quick btw message in the OOC where it'd get lost in the posts of the other big Teams project you were popping in the OOC at the same time.

I'd also really love for Nekoni to explain what he meant by that quote, especially since he Top 2'd recently.

I'm coming from a completely impersonal view here. In a system where negative scoring exists, then there's a noticeably greater risk in putting something that's genuinely a different idea down than putting down a safe bet that you know will score, isn't there? I don't know how risk-adverse people are here, but there is a concern, that if people are wanting to win, there's a temptation there to do what everyone else is doing. I feel that if I was a new nation, and I tried to push the boat out with something a bit left-of-dial, a bit limited in RP and stuff, but still with actual substance and because people didn't like how naive it looked, the big featureless televote went to me "NAH, ZERO", I'd feel pretty pissed off.

especially since he Top 2'd recently

I'd really love you to explain what THIS means, considering it was my first top 5 in over a year, and only my second in seven. I'm not sure what occasionally being able to catch lightning in a bottle has to do with anything.

[Britonisea]

Well, I just want to say that I really enjoyed your WV80 entry - after all, it was my 12 points. Your comment about sending a song that was "if people want to do well, it almost pays to not be divisive (etc.)" seemed as though you were talking about people voting for entries regardless of whether there was a Televote/Jury vote. If you were talking about just the televote, then I don't think it was used in that context in Elejamie's post, otherwise, I wouldn't have had that reaction... since WV80 didn't have a televote. Assuming you were talking about sending a non-divisive song, I was wondering whether this was an observation/assumption or a trial & tested thing you've done to prove what you said is correct? I didn't think your Top 2 song recently was non-divisive or divisive because, to be honest, I didn't think like that and I don't want you to think that I'm insinuating anything dodgy here.

I'm asking whether it is an assumption or not because I think (here's my assumption) is that it can be very rewarding to go for something more divisive, whereas if you send something that is alright then it'd score only in the middle and trod along. I thought a great example of divisiveness for the televote was Izmedu's entry last edition; I wasn't particularly a huge fan of Grimes and was surprised to see it score loads of 10/10s - to the point where it overtook the Britonish entry in the final scoreboard (3rd to 2nd). I also thought my own entry for Estogium was non-divisive (I liked the song so I sent it) and it finished in a similar position to how it finished in the Jury vote (albeit a bit lower since Estogium lost a placement) but it was still mid-scoreboard. Hell, I thought that sending Iveta was a risk for me last edition and it paid off so yeah, I was just curious as to what you meant + whether you could give examples.

It must also be noted that everybody here already votes for tunes, with some people solely voting based on what tunes people send so I wouldn't think people would change their tactics to try to appeal to more people.

My personal misgivings are that you're changing the formula about and giving us a vote on whether to make it permanent at the same time, before we've even had a chance to see if the fixes work. I'm not entirely closed to the idea of it, nah, I'd probably have given it a couple more trials before jumping in with a referendum.

I do agree with you here, perhaps we could have a few editions of figuring out which way is actually the best way to for the televote but I forgot to give my opinions on the forms so...I'mma just keep zipped.

Brit, if you had an issue with changing the host voting system you should have raised it at the time - or indeed in any of the 30 editions since.

Well, Mister X, the point I was trying to make was that you (or the committee at the time) hadn't given the general community the chance to discuss the way we vote for hosts (which I think is quite important) and since it was implemented, I didn't see what I could say to get you to reverse your decision. I think that I have been pretty patient and accepting of changes to the WorldVision Song Contest whether I agreed with them or not. I haven't been on the Committee since the 40s so, otherwise, I would've tried to change things long ago. The current committee has given loads of chances to discuss how to implement the televote with the majority seeing it as a nice addition to the Contest.

[Ertzei Kishim]

My personal misgivings are that you're changing the formula about and giving us a vote on whether to make it permanent at the same time, before we've even had a chance to see if the fixes work. I'm not entirely closed to the idea of it, nah, I'd probably have given it a couple more trials before jumping in with a referendum.

This of course is a very fair point, but that's not something you have communicated to the committee before, whether through the google form that we put up, a post here, or on discord. With that said, if people think it really doesn't work, we do have committee elections soon, and I'm sure at least someone will run on the slate that they want to get rid of the televote, however given its current popularity, and the changes we have made to the system, I can't imagine that would be the case. But like I said, if this does pass it will become a part of WorldVision, but it doesn't stop it being repealed in the future if it doesn't fit.

I'm coming from a completely impersonal view here. In a system where negative scoring exists, then there's a noticeably greater risk in putting something that's genuinely a different idea down than putting down a safe bet that you know will score, isn't there? I don't know how risk-adverse people are here, but there is a concern, that if people are wanting to win, there's a temptation there to do what everyone else is doing. I feel that if I was a new nation, and I tried to push the boat out with something a bit left-of-dial, a bit limited in RP and stuff, but still with actual substance and because people didn't like how naive it looked, the big featureless televote went to me "NAH, ZERO", I'd feel pretty pissed off.

Without being too revealing, the current weighting system we have trialled on last edition's results would actually reward divisive entries to an extent, as the weightings for the max positive score far outweigh that for the negative score. On the wider point of music taste and what does well, you can never police people's tastes, but the televote system we are implementing will provide a boost to nations that do take risks (just an example, but in one weightings system, one "10" would be equalised by having five "1" scores - obviously this is still early stage, but still just gives an idea).

[Electrum Diplomatic Offices]

I think I can find time to write a parody song. EDO in.

[Todlichebujoku]

I don’t think there was any insinuation that the WVC should police tunes

Hello I was responding to this, which does insinuate that.

Don't get me wrong, there should be some changes here at WorldVision, but they should be more to fix how broken the contest's gotten, especially in recent editions.

Moving on,

that the Discord server has created a bubble that relies in almost a political “inner sanctum”

There's definitely been some cliqueing (?) up but there really isn't an inner sanctum. Unless you mean the server mods, which are in a way automatically elevated by virtue of being mods. Though it is true that many of the longtime veterans do share views on the contest, it really isn't a sanctum. I do believe that the server has allowed everyone to know much more about the personalities of other players, and that has caused people to gravitate toward certain people and away from others, and be collectively bothered by consistent rudeness or insensitivity shown by certain people which may not have surfaced in a forum-only environment.

[Izmedu]

I've made some observations in a more private channel but I figured it's time to make those thoughts appear in a public record. Note, this post will not address the televote, because what I'm interested in exploring here is further explaining a cultural shift in WV that I see being inflected in the posts being written so far.

As someone who has been a longtime WV participant, I acknowledge that I am a likely part of the 'big nations' group and that my words will appear like I'm speaking on behalf of some sort of inner sanctum. No, that's not the intention and I've been so woefully inactive on the discord server (I only speak there nowadays to address the WVC) that I spend more time catching up and trying to keep abreast of what's happening. In fact, I'd encourage newer nations to get into the fold and I encourage them to make their thoughts on the current taste/direction of WV here. There's a set of newer regulars that are beginning to make an impact, a few of them are actually bidding to host this contest right now. I want to know what they think of WV. With those disclaimers in mind, there's a couple of things I've been noticing.

Yes, I do think we could stand to see more diversity in terms of RP and tune style in WorldVision, extending olive branches to Ele and Mrx's arguments. Do I agree that there may have been an over-reliance on ESC-related tunes (in which I define as either coming from ESC itself or from NFs held for ESC) recently? WV81 seems to bear that out in the data. I don't begrudge Ele's points or his feeling that Eurovision 2020 (and perhaps Eurovision as a whole, not just from specific year) when five of the top six are dominated by entries from there (Bulletproof, Tears Getting Sober, Andromeda, Cherry Red, and Repondez-moi). Only Tobu with Teeth broke the Eurovision 2020 mold. Though of course, a complication arises when five of that top six are also longstanding veterans of WV that have a history of doing well. But at the same time... I'm not about to begrudge the community for voting these entries into their position. At the time, it was us as a collective that deemed them worthy to occupy those positions. Discounting my own WV81 entry, I gave points to Brit, Polk, Kish, Tod, and Scot that edition because I loved not just the tune, but what I also really liked was the RP that they wrote. They had great packaging, great lyrics, and made for a great reading experience that ultimately compelled me to give them points. I also acknowledge that I may have given them points at the expense of something that may have been more daring or original. However, that is part and parcel the voting system baked into WV/ESC. As someone who does not use puppets, my chance to reward entries richly is limited to the 10 nations I can give my votes to. There are nations that I sorely wished I could've given points to, and I hate seeing great efforts land in my personal 11th or 12th place. I absolutely think it's valid to get frustrated in those cases and feel like we could perhaps use more diversity (in the aural and RP sense, and I'm using both for a reason), but I also can't change my tastes wholesale overnight (I debuted here because I loved the thought of a Eurovision style contest) and I don't want to gut the integrity of my grading system either. If anything, I want nations new and old to know that if taking a risk doesn't work, that is okay.

It would be rather dictatorial to ban Eurovision songs outright (in which I'm assuming a hypothetical policy would extend to ESC entries and NF songs). Tod is absolutely correct to notice that they dominate the first half of the year in any given year. The same pattern that happened in WV81 and WV82 also happened in WV72 and WV73, which also happened in WV63 and WV64. Of course, I'm also complicit in using Eurovision-related songs too and doing well in the editions I mentioned here. Siren Song, Il mondo prima di te, Tears Getting Sober, Statements, you name it. They do well throughout the year too (Replay getting 2nd for me in WV79 long after ESC season was over). However, another part of our core identity is as a Eurovision community. There are people that love Eurovision entries and genuinely think they're good songs. If a nation has that thought process and wants to send their favorite Eurovision or NF entry into the contest, I have no qualms with that as long as they do the song justice in their lyrics and RP.

My personal observation is that what we see as the current incarnation of WV (in terms of entries that risk bleeding into each other as one samey thing, if I'm understanding MrX's points correctly) is something I've personally identified happen for at least the past 20 or 30 editions. Now yes, I do acknowledge that the contest's style has profoundly shifted from say the WV30s versus now. I've been recently looking at my earlier editions on top of having my memory refreshed by building the directory, and the differences are night and day. If you take a look at WV34 or WV35, the RP isn't nearly as intricate, there's a general sense that the contest was still finding its footing with a newer set of regulars, things were a bit more quirky, and there were certainly more joke/light-hearted entries. Things were simpler and not nearly as complex. I don't mean simple in the demeaning sense either. In this case, I do give some charity to MrX's points that we could stand to use more variety. Though perhaps where I depart is that I'm reading this more as variety in the RP and tonal sense. WV has seen more of a slant towards more serious nations dominating more than they usually would. I don't think though a televote would kill them off. The nations that were once responsible for keeping the jokey side of things alive (Yakostan, TUE, GGS, Ardoki) and doing high quality joke entries aren't participating anymore. Hell, even someone straddling both (Praciba) is no longer here.

Perhaps a more lighthearted approach, simplifying our RP, and encouraging more quirky/left-of-field tunes would make for a refreshing contest. But at the same time... we've also moved away from that style. As a community, we've all seen our RP grow, our tastes change, and have also gotten to know each other through the discord server in a way that is markedly different from how things were conducted in the 20s and 30s. Indeed, I think the generation that debuted in the 20s and 30s and what constitutes our current longstanding veterans has been the most consistent generation. Short of trying to force a new approach to WV, I think what's being discussed here will require a similar cultural shift that will take time. We can't just say, 'drop our collective tastes.' The last thing I personally want is to discourage someone from sending what they want. I understand that asking for a lighthearted approach and simplifying RP (especially coming from me) sounds rather wild and unbelievable, but this is where I ask other nations who want to see that style step in and begin rewarding entries like that. If you want to see a shift in WV in terms of taste, this is where you step in, write your entries, and enact the change you want to see.

Okay, that's all I have.

[Kalosia]

I do know that it is an issue in fan contests in general for certain genres to be overrepresented. For me, it gets frustrating in some contests I participate in where it seems like female pop divas from any country seem to easily become a favourite — bonus points if they are in another language or have elements borrowed from their respective ethnic cultures. Maybe I'm just frustrated because the countries I represent (mostly Indonesia) don't have much of those songs.

What I do appreciate about WorldVision, though, is that we're not simply a contest where people are rewarded for simply finding the right song. I do acknowledge that a really good song can help your chances, but at the same time all participants are required to rewrite the lyrics and provide performance RP, period. This levels the playing field and gives us as RPers the ability to make an otherwise average song shine, or to break an otherwise amazing song's chances. It does happen that the winning song is popular on its own but a good tune alone can't win the contest; I believe it's the ability to pair it with matching lyrics and RP that gets rewarded.

Myself, I do vote for the whole package — I score the tune out of 10, lyrics out of 5, and RP also out of 5. Then the total score (out of 20) is ranked and I give points to the countries with the 10 highest scores. I do acknowledge that my personal tastes may draw me towards voting for entries that match them, often sent by people with the same tastes. But everyone has that bias.

I remember back in the 20s and 30s, people actually got mad that I put that much emphasis on the tune when it came to scoring! This is an RP contest, after all, in fact long before I debuted in WV21 it was rare for entries to even use tunes at all. But I do think the great thing about WV, unlike other internet song contests, is that there is no limitation to the country of origin or release date of a song. We literally can choose any existing song in the universe, and that much freedom allows us to put together a package that can impress audiences more easily.

I should also add that, because I actually take into consideration the personal contributions made by everyone when it comes to scoring entries, I have different metrics on the different aspects of each one. An entry might have a wonderfully-written set of lyrics but no RP. Another might have a well-though out performance but lyrics that don't do it justice. And if we do want to go back to the sentiments of the WV20s and 30s, shouldn't we also remember that our entries are more than just the tunes they're based on? As a general call and not necessarily prompted by the specific words of anyone here, let's also keep in mind that the lyrics and staging are really what makes our entries unique and inimitable elsewhere in the world of song contests. Let's give them the credit they deserve.

On that note, because I also grade the lyrical and RP contributions in each entry, it makes it easy for me to create separate jury and televote results...

[Scotatrova]

Hello

I'm going to throw my two cents into the mix as all the responses I've seen thus far have been from a veteran perspective, and what I mean by that is that we're seeing input entirely from nations who have been here a long time, so I'm responding to give my own outlook on the situation. Now I'm not going to be addressing the televote, as its complexivevness (?) is beyond me and I can't be bothered to discuss it. However, I agree that it would be nice to add something new to the contest such as the televote, but we shouldn't feel the need to add something new just for the sake of spicing things up without really working out its makeup beforehand. That's all I have to say on the televote, so moving on. My points are going to be a bit all over the place in terms of what I'll be talking about/what points I'll be responding to.

I can sympathize with the idea of the big nations, or in this case some of the vets, doing consistently well and feeling like your work may be swept under the rug or disregarded if you're not one of them. However, that was a notion I held early on in my participation when I was in my feels, and I've learned that they don't consistently do well because they're necessarily fan favorites but because they put the work into their entries. Now that isn't disregarding those that also put the hard work into their entries, but it does seem that there is a similarity when it comes to the tastes of the community and with the results of the scoreboards.
When it comes to the "reliance of ESC songs" and not bringing anything new to the table, I have to disagree. Of my now 9 participations, only 2 of them have been ESC songs. I didn't pick them because I thought I was going to rely on them being ESC to get me into the top 10. I didn't send Only Teardrops back in WV77 and Repondez-moi in WV81 because I thought they were going to win. I picked them because at that moment, they were songs that I adored and would've loved to see with my own personal twist on them.
I can also see the reason in the "overrepresentation of certain genres" perspective. I admit, that my tastes reflect what I usually send to WV, either generic pop songs or slow, ballads. As a result, those type of songs will usually end up getting my points. Now that isn't me saying "I only vote for songs/genres similar to those I send or enjoy", but they are songs that capture my eye in that contest. In the same realm, if a contest has most of those kinds of songs, which it seems in recent contests has become more popular, then yes my points will go to them. That's not saying that those are the only genres that will get my points. I enjoy a variety of genres that I would be more than happy to give points to. But as its been pointed out, certain genres tend to do more popular than others.

Overall, I am very content with the community that I've come accustomed to over the last year or so. Its a very inviting and welcoming place, and despite recent disagreements and discussions about various topics, some of which discussed above me, I still hold that verdict. While I'm 50/50 on the direction that WV is currently taking, I don't agree with what seems to be a tearing down/consistent analyzing to find what's wrong with new ideas that are brought forth by the committee to make WorldVision more engaging, exciting and unique. Having said that, I also think that the committee should also have the logistics of whatever they change/idea they have in mind down, however they shouldn't be restricted or forced in doing so just because of the disapproval of one or two people. If a majority of the participants are content with it and there are only one or two dissenters, that idea shouldn't be thrown out the window because of only those two. But the committee should still welcome the input that is given to them, and take it into consideration as well, you can't cater to everybody, there will be those to agree or disagree with you, but its how its handled and dealt with that matters. But that's all I have to say on the matter(s) at hand. Do with it what you will, and I look forward to seeing the direction WV goes from here on out.