1st International Monarchist Congress(OOC thread, OPEN)

[Vionna-Frankenlisch]

OOC: I have a feeling most of us are in 2017, I know I am

Then 2017 then.

That would be best.

[Mesairien]

Then 2017 then.

That would be best.

I'm happy for whatever year to be honest.

By the way, sorry if my post doesn't really move things along, it was more to show my involvement and explain a bit about my logical role at the Congress as a previously isolationist nation - I'll gladly take a bit more of an involved role when the moment arises but this week has been a bit hectic for me so its easier just to sit at the back for the moment.

[Vionna-Frankenlisch]

Why bump the OOC when you can post in the IC?

[Ludania]

Application:
Nation NS name: The Empire of Ludania
Nation RP name: The Empire of Ludania / The Ludanian Empire
Type of Monarchy: Absolute Monarchy
Ambassador: Arth Graff
Best RP Sample(Link): viewtopic.php?f=5&t=431732
Most recent rather than best, maybe.
Will you obey the OP's rules, as well as be extra attentive waiting for his posts to advance the RP?: Yes
Will you try your best to learn from the high quality roleplayers and improving your skill level in the roleplay?: Yes
#App

[MTO and BTO Admin]

Tag

[Bruke]

Do we have to reapply if we already joined?

[Bruke]

No, if we already joined the Monarchist Congress.

[Great Celestial China]

Application:
Nation NS name: Celestial China
Nation RP name: China
Type of Monarchy: Constitutional Monarchy
Ambassador: Ambassador Yin Hei
Best RP Sample(Link):only started, but here's one I'm in
Will you obey the OP's rules, as well as be extra attentive waiting for his posts to advance the RP?: Yes, I'll try my best
Will you try your best to learn from the high quality roleplayers and improving your skill level in the roleplay?: Yes, I will
#App

[MTO and BTO Admin]

Application:
Nation NS name: Celestial China
Nation RP name: China
Type of Monarchy: Constitutional Monarchy
Ambassador: Ambassador Yin Hei
Best RP Sample(Link):[url=:https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=432388]only started, but here's one I'm in[/url]
Will you obey the OP's rules, as well as be extra attentive waiting for his posts to advance the RP?: Yes, I'll try my best
Will you try your best to learn from the high quality roleplayers and improving your skill level in the roleplay?: Yes, I will
#App

Accepted!

[Great Celestial China]

Application:
Nation NS name: Celestial China
Nation RP name: China
Type of Monarchy: Constitutional Monarchy
Ambassador: Ambassador Yin Hei
Best RP Sample(Link):[url=:https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=432388]only started, but here's one I'm in[/url]
Will you obey the OP's rules, as well as be extra attentive waiting for his posts to advance the RP?: Yes, I'll try my best
Will you try your best to learn from the high quality roleplayers and improving your skill level in the roleplay?: Yes, I will
#App

Accepted!

when will the actual thing start again? In case it changed
nvm

[Great Celestial China]

Application:
Nation NS name: Celestial China
Nation RP name: China
Type of Monarchy: Constitutional Monarchy
Ambassador: Ambassador Yin Hei
Best RP Sample(Link):only started, but here's one I'm in
Will you obey the OP's rules, as well as be extra attentive waiting for his posts to advance the RP?: Yes, I'll try my best
Will you try your best to learn from the high quality roleplayers and improving your skill level in the roleplay?: Yes, I will
#App

Post in the IC then I will.

thx

[Kyrenaia]

Good evening,
well, I am no member of the MTO, but I am contemplating joining, so I would like to send two observers to this event. Here's the app:

Application:
Nation NS name:

The Sultanate of Kyrenaia.

Nation RP name:

The Sultanate of Kyrenaia.

Type of Monarchy:

Absolute.

Ambassadors/Observers:

Hassan ben Sahid, Vizier and Minister of Foreign Affairs.
Fara bint-Dardan, Princess of the Ilkhanate of Megido.

Best RP Sample(Link):

One of my best.

Will you obey the OP's rules, as well as be extra attentive waiting for his posts to advance the RP?:

Yes.

Will you try your best to learn from the high quality roleplayers and improving your skill level in the roleplay?:

Yes.

#App

[Kyrenaia]

Good evening,
well, I am no member of the MTO, but I am contemplating joining, so I would like to send two observers to this event. Here's the app:

Application:
Nation NS name:

The Sultanate of Kyrenaia.

Nation RP name:

The Sultanate of Kyrenaia.

Type of Monarchy:

Absolute.

Ambassadors/Observers:

Hassan ben Sahid, Vizier and Minister of Foreign Affairs.
Fara bint-Dardan, Princess of the Ilkhanate of Megido.

Best RP Sample(Link):

One of my best.

Will you obey the OP's rules, as well as be extra attentive waiting for his posts to advance the RP?:

Yes.

Will you try your best to learn from the high quality roleplayers and improving your skill level in the roleplay?:

Yes.

#App

Sure you can join, you posted in the mic thread not the mto one but eh close enough.

Alright, thank you very much - and my apologies about posting in the wrong thread. At least this is not the IC... ; )

[Shazbotdom]

So wait, if one is a monarchy and wants to join this they have to apply to join your alliance? That seems rather pathetic to me. What if one wants to discuss problems facing monarchies, but does not want to join your alliance? Are they not allowed to come to this conference? If not, then seriously my nation would rather join another monarchist Alliance then even think about joining yours.

[Common Territories]

So wait, if one is a monarchy and wants to join this they have to apply to join your alliance? That seems rather pathetic to me. What if one wants to discuss problems facing monarchies, but does not want to join your alliance? Are they not allowed to come to this conference? If not, then seriously my nation would rather join another monarchist Alliance then even think about joining yours.

No need to apply to the alliance.
All monarchies are welcome as observers and to cooperate with the alliance as the alliance is pragmatic and focused on cooperation even with members outside the alliance. However a major focus is on the MTO, but that is optional to attend if they desire not to join it. Rather, we aim to create a treaty between all monarchies within and without the alliance to cooperate against threats to monarchy. The MTO is the willing guardian of the congress, due it being stationed in Berlin, however friendliness to the MTO is not required as long as they do not interfere during the finalization of the MTO's constitution, parliament, elections, et cetera or work to undermine it. Any monarchy can join, this is just sponsored by the MTO, but again I should stress, no need to think loyalty needs to be sworn to the MTO. Though I admit it is a major focus, no one has to attend the stuff related to the MTO or approve of it.

If you really meant that you'd make it so this congress didn't center around MTO. If this wasn't just about your alliance it wouldn't be dominated by your elections, it wouldn't focus around "'Core' MTO members, and the 'Monarchist Unity Organization'(MUO) members", and it would be neutral to ALL monarchies. There will never be some "Pan-Monarchist Organization" as long as you keep trying to put MTO at the head of it.

[Allanea]

It's not clear to me what 'perfected socialism' is. There are people in NS who roleplay socialist monarchies, or even 'successful socialist states'. Neither of these things have existed in the real world, but I don't view it as fruitful to nitpick them about it.

The problem seems to be that there's some perception that there's some front for MTO recruitment here, and that the Imperion Coalition and the MTO are 'competing'.

I don't think NS alliances that are worknig for the same thing should 'compete' at all. NS is too big for any single group to 'dominate' it.

But frankly I think what should be done that instead of doing a congress unprepared, leaders of the big monarchist organizations (or semi-monarchist, like mine), should negotiate about a future congress and determine its purposes and agenda ahead of time and have it jointly hosted by us. That way it won't be seen as a front for any of our groups.

[Common Territories]

If you really meant that you'd make it so this congress didn't center around MTO. If this wasn't just about your alliance it wouldn't be dominated by your elections, it wouldn't focus around "'Core' MTO members, and the 'Monarchist Unity Organization'(MUO) members", and it would be neutral to ALL monarchies. There will never be some "Pan-Monarchist Organization" as long as you keep trying to put MTO at the head of it.

It's not the head, it's simply the current guardian due to no other organizations willing to help it exist. The Imperion Coalition and MTO are by your words rivals, and as such, cannot be trusted to not discriminate against MTO members. Plus it is more ideologically motivated, which can lead to isolation and bitter conflict with ideological rivals. The MTO to an extent still that issue, but it is more focused on being pragmatic and sustaining monarchist influence and it's member's survival, even at the cost of cooperation with other ideologies. I'm not saying your alliance is not willing to do that, but the MTO is by design created to be a much more open organization, that can also teach newer members. As well, we are non-partisan in who we accept. The only reason I refused Rueskland-Preuben was because he seemed more a socialist state with a monarch being a monarch in name only, secondly there's no such thing as perfected socialism.
If he is willing to address those errors, which I admit I should have explained earlier but was distracted, I am willing to let him in the MTO.

I am hosting it in Berlin because I had planned this for a long time, with or without the MTO. However your members are welcome to attend and not be discriminated against and even promote your organization. However, I do not see that happening due to ooc hostility and ic rivalry, which I respectfully ask you to not get into to not bring drama and conflict into the thread that is unneeded. But, if it was to occur, I'd be pleasantly surprised-And be willing to add in a couple extra days for you after the first 12(To not mess up the schedule), and ban open hostility to the Imperion Coalition. However I'd expect the same courtesy, however criticism designed to improve the organization is welcome. I.E. The limits of power the Prime Minister should have without him being a figurehead, I do believe they should have limited power-but still enough to do important stuff.

To begin with, lets quash some of that fake news you've been spouting about Imperion (yea, I saw some of it on GD Discord and im seeing it here now). Your insistence that Imperion isn't "open" to people is factually wrong; it's so wrong that since your organization was made, Imperion has gained three new members and a possible fourth one coming soon. This idea of yours that we don't accept people, or that we discriminate against newer players, is completely wrong - or as I like to call it, fake news. Just because you're alliance is looser with its definition of monarchy doesn't make it any more open than Imperion. In fact, if you were so open and alluring to potential members, you wouldn't be on such a determined safari hunt to add prominent RPer names to your roster.

Ideologically motivated? You are aware just setting up an organization for monarchies is "ideological", right? You're making it sound like ideology is this terrible term no one should utter - like it's the fucking Illuminati or something. Then you go and say I/Imperion's ideology is promoting "isolation", that we're causing "bitter conflict with rivals", and we aren't doing anything for "sustaining monarchist influence and it's member's survival". What the fuck do you know about any of that or Imperion? Imperion has a treasury of funds for the Coalition to use; Imperion has a budget for domestic affairs that promotes inter-member relations and works to improve all member's domestic situations; Imperion has an arms fund that can pay for wars, buy new equipment, and sustain our military activities for years; Imperion has a Foreign Legion with multiple training facilities and stations, 96,500 strong and ready to deploy against anyone threatening our interests; and Imperion's members are proud and loyal nations who've all contributed to make the Coalition as strong as it is. What the hell does MTO/BTO and this Congress have? Nothing. You talk about ideology but all I see is you trying your best to expand a membership roster like that's the only thing that matters, to the point you're actually going to people begging for them to join. So yes, Imperion does discriminate against MTO/BDO. We don't see MTO/BTO as a serious alliance nor one that truly defines monarchy/imperialism. We recruit only monarchies that have a monarch who has power - socialists or dolled up fake monarchies need not apply. You can call that "not being open" if you want, but in the same breath, I wont call your alliance "real monarchy" either. Does that mean we wont support "other ideologies"? Hell yes it does! We don't support fake monarchies, we wont accept socialism and communism, and we see most democracies out there with distrust, even if we do use them to our advantage. If your definition of strength for monarchies is that we need to be allies with the former government types to survive, you're damn right we don't see eye to eye. At this point Deian, I don't feel you can accurately describe a monarchy/empire by its true definition.

But lets be real here. You made this Congress with every intention for it being controlled by your MTO so that MTO has to be the leading NS monarchy group. You made it host your elections, you're running it as your own (you saying it's sponsored now doesn't cut the cake), and you just can't separate your alliance from this damn thing. If this Congress were mine (first of all, I wouldn't call it a congress), If it were my idea, I wouldn't have Imperion's grubby hands all over it. I wouldn't include "elections" in its activity list (I find it ironic a monarchy/empire based organization relies on elections in the first place), I would center it on the topic of monarchies and empires first and foremost, not my own organization, and I surely wouldn't have language still in the opening that states applicants legally join Imperion by applying for this gathering (or does "Creating a crisis through say murder, declaring war on a nation in the congress, condemnations of the MTO(You joined/are posting to be in it after all) or other hostile diplomatic events is forbidden(For attendees)." not count as saying "You're a member, so why are you criticizing this one participating organization lol?" If that's seriously still a typo, I suggest correcting it). You're placing all these over-the-top rules aimed at me and Imperion (don't tell me they're not, because we both know "condemning" shit is aimed square at me) and you seriously expect me/us to join in droves, excited we get to play along; though I'd find it hard to openly discuss things since you're policing the participants like this was a Gulag. Especially when this Congress is, by your own OP's language, designed to build up your organization. And I quote: "This is strictly discussion, cooperation, and the creation/evolution of the Recently founded MTO, and the leaders talking to each other during lunch time.." So don't tell me this isn't about MTO. Your own OP says it is.

But the sad truth is Deian, is that you wont take any of this as criticism, though harsh it may be now. You're just going to accuse me of the same old "OOC hostility" or something when this is meant to serve as a wake-up call. Criticism isn't always nice and it's not always pleasing to hear. It's your choice to learn from it, or buck at it.

[Allanea]

Criticism, too, can be expressed in a hostile or a non-hostile way. I can't help but note you sound somewhat hostile.

It's true - I've stated this before - that the OP could be reworded by making the Congress sound like less of an MTO front. I understand the desire to use the Congress to promote one's own organization, but in fact it would be better at promoting our organizations (both yours and mine) if the endorsement of one given group was less subtle.

[Vionna-Frankenlisch]

Wow. I have no idea why it took me so long to notice this shitshow but blimey, things have really gone above and beyond the call here. Personally, I don't really want to get involved here, both organisations have their pros and cons but of course, I swing more towards Imperion (naturally, as a member). I'm perfectly happy to withdraw my representatives if TECT thinks it best, after all, we wouldn't want any hostility, would we?

[Common Territories]

Criticism, too, can be expressed in a hostile or a non-hostile way. I can't help but note you sound somewhat hostile.

It's true - I've stated this before - that the OP could be reworded by making the Congress sound like less of an MTO front. I understand the desire to use the Congress to promote one's own organization, but in fact it would be better at promoting our organizations (both yours and mine) if the endorsement of one given group was less subtle.

Yes I agree and the only reason it focused on the MTO so much was the hostility with Imperion.

I'll go further to say that yes Imperion is open but by design the MTO is designed as a much larger organization. I never stated Imperion was not open. If you were willing to be friendly-which at the time it seemed you weren't-I'd have worded it differently and put less restrictions. Also I did commit some errors writing this. Idk why I added you must join the MTO. I must had spaced out and not been focusing so I am sorry for that mistake. I never stated it wasn't open however after skimming it I decided it was a more tightly knit alliance that may not be appealing to a wider alliance. Attractiveness is irrelevant-I would ask-not beg, though caveats must be worked out for alluring members-anyone I see as beneficial who may also benefit to join. The MTO isn't completely focused on numbers though I've aligned it with helping newbies. Numbers are okay and we intend to keep up recruitment but we will do our best to make every member matter. And no the roster isn't my main focus-not by a long shot-I'm simply building up a stable foundation of experienced rpers and newbies to give us the reputation of a stable, functioning organization that is active. It will keep up activity and belief that the alliance is active, and worth coming to for help. Activity and a respectable roster ensures an alliance is not overlooked or forgotten. I also.plan a slew of reforms and expansions to expand on the concept of the alliance such as a joint military force and as you have, a treasury, etc.(I won't list all the reforms here. I've long intended to carry these out.) Yes we intend to be larger but that is to ensure Monarchies stand with each other as much as possible. And we are ideological to an extent and focus more on geopolitics-say instead of supporting monarchies exclusively in conflicts we instead support those who'll align with the MTO, sowing discord upon our enemies and making non monarchies more respectful and loyal to us. Supporting our Monarchies's geopolitical goals is also a big factor.
This is a more pragmatism driven approach that I believe will strengthen Monarchist influence in non monarchies. As such it is also a strategic move. Whether it'll work out remains to be seen. And I'm not viewing ideology as not to be uttered I'm simply saying the MTO remains pragmatic and non partisan. The Imperion Coalition seems focused on as you said empires and imperialists. We accept any Monarchy where the Monarch holds more power than a puppet. You're not being called not true monarchies by any stretch you are vastly exaggerating to the point of falsehood. Imperialists are welcome and we support them, they aren't just exclusively focused on.
And you seem like you won't cooperate with the MTO at all.
As such, my offer remains but it is up to you to take it.
But the question and reason why the MIC is the way it is is will you? Though if you were willing to I'd be very happy and wouldn't mind at all. Seriously just say the word and be let in.
Oh I should explain condemnations of the mto are okay once the constitution is finished. I meant just randomly condemning in the middle of the talks is a no no as that's just trying to be difficult.

Yet again with the fake news, huh?

This discrepancy about "Imperion being less open, but us MTO are open!" and reality is simply fake news. There's literally nothing saying Imperion or MTO are designed to be larger than the other - you're just saying that in an effort to make Imperion look more isolated and less accepting of new blood. Just because Imperion standards are upheld, and we have a more fit definition of monarchy/imperialism, doesn't mean we're not as open to new members as MTO; your accusation that "The Imperion Coalition seems focused on as you said empires and imperialists." is not only putting words in my mouth, it's an outright falsehood (ironic, eh?) - or are the three monarchies (they're not empires as per their government types) who've joined Imperion not matter? At this point I don't believe you know anything about Imperion, in fact, I know for a fact you never read our two condemnations against you because if you had you'd have seen the IC criticisms of MTO/Congress that included faults you just admitted to missing - you ignored this "must join MTO" criticism for weeks now. If you had taken the criticisms from the start less personally, you'd have taken those criticisms to heart rather than just adopting some of my talking points. "I never stated it wasn't open however after skimming it I decided it was a more tightly knit alliance that may not be appealing to a wider alliance." Liar. You state in the same run-on sentence contradictory claims and you stated earlier "Plus it is more ideologically motivated, which can lead to isolation and bitter conflict with ideological rivals. The MTO to an extent still that issue, but it is more focused on being pragmatic and sustaining monarchist influence and it's member's survival, even at the cost of cooperation with other ideologies. I'm not saying your alliance is not willing to do that, but the MTO is by design created to be a much more open organization, that can also teach newer members. As well, we are non-partisan in who we accept." If this isn't a convoluted way of saying "Imperion closed off, join more open MTO!" I don't know what is. And if you're so open to helping newer players, why do you have an application process at all? Why did you deny a new player when you stated you gladly help new players? I think this "We're designed to be more open!" argument is bullshit and it's actually "We want the most extravagant roster on NS!" But that's just my opinion. Because you and I know you're hunting for prominent RPers to make your alliance look good; and before you lie again and say you're not, remember I have the chat logs proving you came to me begging to let Ghant join this alliance. The next day you move to Greater Dienstad and Mac is suddenly apart of this alliance - coincidence? So don't give me that crap that this is about openness and you're not hunting for prominent names. We both know that's not what this is about and that your explanations are disingenuous. And for someone not interested in how their roster looks, you have a lot to say about how it should be filled out with big names and noobs.

Whether it's because you're too busy or just lazy, this whole "Wait until I get a constitution up!" argument is clearly an attempt to silence dissent by anyone because you don't want people saying anything that makes this alliance look bad; sad since I've offered you multiple times to return the favor/retort on our IC thread, and all of these offers have gone ignored - you're still welcome to as is any of your members to post one btw. You first said this excuse on December 7th in reaction to my attempt at creating good IC rivalry. It's now hours away from 2018 and there's not been one visible ounce of new leadership or a constitution for this alliance. I understand people are busy and this is a bad time of year, but if you're gonna say "You're not allowed to criticize us unless we have a constitution!" and you never make one, what are people like me supposed to think? I even predicted you'd lag behind in this and that waiting would make me wait weeks or longer. Can you imagine if I was still left waiting to make my post? I would have at least been waiting a month just to make one post if I had followed your will. Sadly, I don't see any constitution coming out of the woodwork and I honestly can't remember the last time I spoke to anyone from this alliance that isn't you. So when I see this thread saying you're only allowed to praise MTO or treat it like a chill thread, I can't condone it let alone take part in it - especially if there are lacking neutral topics to discuss...

There's nothing pragmatic or non-partisan about this entire alliance. Your alliance controls this Congress with a firm grip and excluded Imperion from the beginning unless we kowtowed to MTO ("Imperion isn't nice, so we're gonna control this!" argument is bull), the Congress' events are almost all MTO related, and your record this month is suspiciously questionable to say the least. Im gonna be honest, you know nothing about Imperion yet your quick to make fake news about it like it's nothing. First we weren't open, then we're only for empires, and now we don't support other monarchies because we're only reclusive or only care about empires (not like we have a track record of helping non-member monarchies, huh?). Though if we're so wrong, maybe you should stop emulating Imperion too ("We accept any Monarchy where the Monarch holds more power than a puppet." I wonder who said that first?)? All of your beliefs about Imperion are wrong and have been proven as so. But you see, you got one thing right. Imperion doesn't like MTO from both an IC and now OOC point of view. A lot of us think your behavior has soured things even if my criticisms are a bit more hostile in tone (that's just how I am sometimes when I bring criticism down - I don't like mincing meat); not to mention we don't like fake news about us being stated in this fashion. From an IC point of view we completely disagree with MTO's views about monarchy, we disagree with MTO's over-reliance on non-monarchy/empire nations, and Imperion nations likely don't view the nations of MTO as respectable representatives of monarchy/imperialism - if anything, we believe you're tarnishing those governance types. So we're not going to be friendly and we wont be considering partnering with MTO on anything. To us, you're no better than the socialist scum we bury beneath our feet. I don't think I can even say we're rivals anymore...

Wow. I have no idea why it took me so long to notice this shitshow but blimey, things have really gone above and beyond the call here. Personally, I don't really want to get involved here, both organisations have their pros and cons but of course, I swing more towards Imperion (naturally, as a member). I'm perfectly happy to withdraw my representatives if TECT thinks it best, after all, we wouldn't want any hostility, would we?

Vionna, that's up to you man. Im not gonna sit here and say not to partake if you want to, but I don't believe in this institution of being representative of true monarchism/imperialism. I can say for certain there are biases towards MTO and against Imperion here, so I'd suggest Imperion members not take part. But like I said, im not going to try and control you on something like this. If you want to take part in whatever way you wish to, go for it. If not, that's fine too.

[Common Territories]

Btw. Proof you're lying and meant to add that language about joining MTO by posting here is now evident in the fact you listed an Imperion member as an MTO member (Vionna-Frankenlisch) who never applied let alone posted on any of the MTO threads. His only connection to MTO is posting here, so why would he be listed if your addition of controversial language about joining MTO by posting here was a mistake? I wonder how many other participants here are in the same boat? Regardless, I demand you remove him from your member roster immediately.

[Common Territories]

If the only way to interact with you is to kiss-up to you and kowtow to your sensitivity, consider me banned. I don't bend over to anyone, especially to someone like you. Consider this my last attempt to ever help or interact with you again - and of course making yourself the enemy to Imperion and SACTO. I'd say good luck with everything, but I in all honesty do not care anymore

[Allanea]

If the only way to interact with you is to kiss-up to you and kowtow to your sensitivity, consider me banned. I don't bend over to anyone, especially to someone like you. Consider this my last attempt to ever help or interact with you again - and of course making yourself the enemy to Imperion and SACTO. I'd say good luck with everything, but I in all honesty do not care anymore

1. Telling people you refuse to interact with them after they refused to interact with you is not really very meaningful as a reply.
2. Refusing to interact with people and simultaneously threatening them with in-character consequences is also not very meaningful or threatening.

[MTO and BTO Admin]

Edited it to be more accurate, I really messed up on the description at first.

[Bruke]

Bruke, can you remove that purely ooc post from the ic?
Also since NS has a basically multiverse of a planet, I figured referencing them was possible and the easiest way to give examples.

whoops, sorry about that.