Maroon Revolution [DIPLOMATIC|MT+|SEMI-OPEN|OOC]

[Common Territories]

And I disagree. I generally believe RPs run better when everybody knows (OOCly) what every other nation is up to - then RPs are informed.

They run even better when the sources of drama and other impediments are removed, especially after an NS mentor and authority on military matters tells them what's up.

To be honest, I wouldn't even waste my time anymore. The world has a better chance of convincing North Korea to accept representative democracy; and I think just about enough people have tried to convince this person of where his mistakes are, so the North Korea example is pretty dead on. Either he believes his own propaganda or he believes his propaganda is best - doesn't matter which it is at this point to be honest. Though the only reason this discussion goes on is because he (A) can't silence the thread using OP powers and (B) because this is his best current option (2nd out of probably 4 or 5 plans). If he did have control he'd have probably banned the majority of us by now. So his only option left for success is to create drama to dislodge everyone's interest here - he's been doing the same pony show since the war in Aravea for fucks sake. To be honest, the only reason this thread exists is so he can participate in the recent Ardoki events - the people in the other thread banned him because they got tired of the drama. If Ardoki wants this thread to succeed as an enjoyable experience for his participants, I suggest he tells him to knock off the drama nonsense or leave. But that's just my viewpoint as a mostly outside viewer

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

*ignores idiocy above*

And I disagree. I generally believe RPs run better when everybody knows (OOCly) what every other nation is up to - then RPs are informed.

They run even better when the sources of drama and other impediments are removed, especially after an NS mentor and authority on military matters tells them what's up.

We never finished that conversation - I didn't even have a chance to go into details like this patent. (You lot don't believe I could ever be right, amirite? )

[Common Territories]

*ignores idiocy above*

They run even better when the sources of drama and other impediments are removed, especially after an NS mentor and authority on military matters tells them what's up.

We never finished that conversation - I didn't even have a chance to go into details like this patent. (You lot don't believe I could ever be right, amirite? )

And I rest my case

[Inyourfaceistan]

*ignores idiocy above*

Just like you ignore every other claim or fact you can't refute.

We never finished that conversation - I didn't even have a chance to go into details like this patent.

Patent =/= real working scale model and proof of military application.

All you have done is prove that research has been done or might be done for the concept of a vacuum balloon and from there a vacuum airship might be possible in the future; most certainly nothing whatsoever that proves a giant militarized spaceship is possible this side of 2025.
Nothing...

(You lot don't believe I could ever be right, amirite? )

Quite the contrary, Captain Ego, I don't believe you think it's possible for you to be wrong...

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

Patent =/= real working scale model and proof of military application.

So, according to you, a GE&T storefront selling existing things is the only sort of storefront that counts as MT?

I suppose you'd like Maltropia to build a container ship? Neu Engollen to invent a new beer? Lyras to build a hundred ton tank? Parthan to build a underwater carrier? Marquesan to build a ground effect flying boat?

The thing is, when you invent something on nationstates, you're always combining RL inventions and calculations. You're not one of those people who has to use F-22 clones, are you? Of course not! You have a military populated with weapons that people here on NS have invented by combining things that are currently technically possible.

The FACT that you seem to be missing is that the definition "MT" allows for people to combine things that are technically possible.

As for whether it is realistic, you haven't provided a single economics counter-argument for why an enabler for SSTO technology is not worth every cent.

Just like you ignore every other claim or fact you can't refute.

My refusing to addressing every word that comes out of your mouth simply means I am pressed for time and don't feel like repeating what I have already said, since you are asking questions I have already replied to. I don't have time to repeat myself forever. But you seem to have nothing better to do than repeat yourself forever to try to bait me.

You stir up absolutely everything I say into an argument. And then you ignore every single fucking point I make in reply and ask the same questions again and again.

When are YOU going to reply to my economic argument? Or are you like Donald Trump, ignoring every fact that anybody says, ignoring every attempt to discuss and debate?

I think you should be taught what it feels like. Henceforth, every time you say something unsubstantiated, and ignore any point anybody puts up against you, I shall say you are saying rubbish, and I will be right.

[New Dahlonega]

Could I perhaps get involved in this? If not, that's fine. I just thought I'd ask.

Hello? Just wanting to get an answer, if I could. This is the OOC, yes?

[Ardoki]

Okay, let's stop arguing. I'm going to continue stuff, when I can, and I don't want the moderators active here before then.

My interpretation of MT includes everything currently available, plus things which are possible with our current technology and scientific understanding (e.g. thorium reactors, further experiments in genetic modification and cloning, extensive electronic surveillance systems, etcetera) but are not in wide use to due various reasons (e.g. lack of interest from investors, ethical concerns about 'playing god', illegal breaches and violations of privacy, etcetera).

I would probably consider the space ship (being mentioned here) as PMT at the very least. Since it isn't capable of faster-than-light travel, it wouldn't be FT; however, for something of that massive size and technical complexity to be feasible it would have to incorporate PMT technologies.

I apologise if I made a mistake. If so, may I please be directed to any articles about the space ship in question?

[Ardoki]

Could I perhaps get involved in this? If not, that's fine. I just thought I'd ask.

Hello? Just wanting to get an answer, if I could. This is the OOC, yes?

Sure.

Though nothing much is happening at the moment.

[New Dahlonega]

Sure.

Though nothing much is happening at the moment.

Anything huge happen as yet? I'll read the posted material thus far, of course.

[New Aeyariss]

Parthan to build a underwater carrier?

I believe i had a good debate with NRR about feasibility of this design. There is a good reason why I don't advocate using it.

Marquesan to build a ground effect flying boat?

As much as I respect both Marquesan and Pharthan... I had ton of issues with certain Marq's designs.

The thing is, when you invent something on nationstates, you're always combining RL inventions and calculations. You're not one of those people who has to use F-22 clones, are you? Of course not! You have a military populated with weapons that people here on NS have invented by combining things that are currently technically possible.

Actually as far as I remember, Inyursta uses mix of RL US equipment + few of his own designs mirroring those from RL.

The FACT that you seem to be missing is that the definition "MT" allows for people to combine things that are technically possible.

Problem is; we may argue WHAT is technically possible. While the paper you presented (and which was already forwarded for proper elements of my General Staff for analysis... advantages of having different specialists under my hand) mentions the possibility - it does not mean that such aircraft has been built now.

I think you should be taught what it feels like. Henceforth, every time you say something unsubstantiated, and ignore any point anybody puts up against you, I shall say you are saying rubbish, and I will be right.

Take a look everybody. Ausitoria admits to causing issues for purpose of personal vendetta. Sorry - this site is not your wishfeast and if you wish to exist here, learn some rules. The very fact that everyone - now not just SACTO, but also Ganos Lao and Lamoni, both established RPers - want you out, proves something.

I had pleasure of talking with your mates from Hemithea.... Fallenrun and others say the same.

[Common Territories]

Patent =/= real working scale model and proof of military application.

So, according to you, a GE&T storefront selling existing things is the only sort of storefront that counts as MT?

I suppose you'd like Maltropia to build a container ship? Neu Engollen to invent a new beer? Lyras to build a hundred ton tank? Parthan to build a underwater carrier? Marquesan to build a ground effect flying boat?

The thing is, when you invent something on nationstates, you're always combining RL inventions and calculations. You're not one of those people who has to use F-22 clones, are you? Of course not! You have a military populated with weapons that people here on NS have invented by combining things that are currently technically possible.

The FACT that you seem to be missing is that the definition "MT" allows for people to combine things that are technically possible.

As for whether it is realistic, you haven't provided a single economics counter-argument for why an enabler for SSTO technology is not worth every cent.

Just like you ignore every other claim or fact you can't refute.

My refusing to addressing every word that comes out of your mouth simply means I am pressed for time and don't feel like repeating what I have already said, since you are asking questions I have already replied to. I don't have time to repeat myself forever. But you seem to have nothing better to do than repeat yourself forever to try to bait me.

You stir up absolutely everything I say into an argument. And then you ignore every single fucking point I make in reply and ask the same questions again and again.

When are YOU going to reply to my economic argument? Or are you like Donald Trump, ignoring every fact that anybody says, ignoring every attempt to discuss and debate?

I think you should be taught what it feels like. Henceforth, every time you say something unsubstantiated, and ignore any point anybody puts up against you, I shall say you are saying rubbish, and I will be right.

As a representative of GE&T and someone who has full backing of Team Lyras, Maltropia, and others who are GE&Ters too (not to mention one who has a storefront that sells realistic products successfully, as you're getting at in the first portion of your post), let me tell you again your star destroyer isn't MT. Many of the said people you mentioned have already stated as such too. Disagree still? Hop on Esper #NSMentors where many people far more expert than you can give their full opinions on the subject from MT, PMT, and FT perspectives - though I think we already know the Mentor team has already voiced their disagreement with you that this thing isn't an MT product.

[Ganos Lao]

Hop on Esper #NSMentors where many people far more expert than you can give their full opinions on the subject from MT, PMT, and FT perspectives - though I think we already know the Mentor team has already voiced their disagreement with you that this thing isn't an MT product.

I fully agree with this. If you're going to insist over the ruling of one of the Mentors, then why not talk to the others? After all, if you know more than Lamoni, it shouldn't be much to ask to say if you know mroe than, say, a guy like Lyras, the GOAT when it comes to NS military stuff.

[Kyrusia]

Quite the contrary, Captain Ego, I don't believe you think it's possible for you to be wrong...

This doesn't help matters.

Everyone, listen: if you can't get along with another player, do not like their style, do not want to interact with their In-Character entities or concepts, don't. Utilize your Friend/Foe List feature if you cannot communicate with them in a civil manner that does not resort into petty, tit-for-tat posting - much less actual rule violations.

I strongly urge those of you who cannot get along to utilize this feature, distance yourselves, or otherwise take a step back from this before it truly devolves.

[Inyourfaceistan]

Quite the contrary, Captain Ego, I don't believe you think it's possible for you to be wrong...

This doesn't help matters.

I understand, and will do my best to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Ausitoria; I appologize for an unnecessary name-calling remark associating you the person with the arguments you make.

---

Everyone else, considering how much this thread has devolved and that we are on the verge of a mutual OOC agreement with Ardoki, I will take myself back to the Continental Blockade thread where we can discuss this RP without bickering about who's nation is the greatest and if star destroyers are realistic or not.
This is probably better considering the agreement concerns the blockade more than it does Ardoki's internal reforms...

[McNernia]

I second that motion and well Mcnernia is standing by.

[Riysa]

I heard Star Destroyers in MT? Hah.

Just a heads-up, you can patent literally anything without science being a requirement, as the Dean Drive proves. I recall someone trying to patent a Monopoly knockoff, despite Hasbro still being a thing.

[New Chilokver]

I heard Star Destroyers in MT? Hah.

Just a heads-up, you can patent literally anything without science being a requirement, as the Dean Drive proves. I recall someone trying to patent a Monopoly knockoff, despite Hasbro still being a thing.

F*ck-huge nuclear powered, aircraft-carrying, vacuum airship actually.

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

Ardoki, in Novo Wagondia's continued absence, I'm inclined to go with Flardania's opinion, and to conclude the IFC would, after several day's consideration, have decided not to let Moriarty attend WorldVision.

This means that some things may need to be retconned.

However, before we get out the chainsaws, I also think it unlikely (to the point of being absurdly unrealistic) that Moriarty would not have been turned over the IFC at some point in the first few days of the investigation, either in the days immediately before or after Adoki joined the IFC, back when Ardoki was promising full co-operation. If you really want Moriarty for canon purposes, which is fair enough, surely you could easily find/make a double/clone instead, as we discussed earlier? I don't think we need to retcon that far back.

Indeed, as for retconning more recent stuff, I see no reason why Ardoki could not have sent a duplicate Moriarty to WorldVision and pretended that it was the IFC version that had been given permission and had been able to escape. This would have the triple effect of confusing everybody ICly (and OOCly if desired) about which Moriarty was the real version, ensuring nobody ICly knows who is telling the truth, and (importantly) avoiding any OOC requirement to retcon anything at all about Moriarty and WorldVision. The result of that would be a win-win-win situation: an RP which is more interesting rather than less interesting, no fracture in continuity, and more time available for other RPing since we won't need to alter the past.

---

As for the perennial discussion over Ausitoria's modus operandi, I haven't replied earlier as I simply have better ways to spend my time than repeating old arguments or even bringing in new dimensions, since most of my opponents seem to take no notice of either. I think they formed an opinion of me long before I found the time to have anything to do with it, and they will probably never shift from that first impression. The fact is I don't need them, and if the last month has taught me anything, it's that I can make far more progress leaving them behind - I don't have to take everybody with me, and I am quite capable of working out logically perfect solutions to fractal continuity.

[Ganos Lao]

it's that I can make far more progress leaving them behind - I don't have to take everybody with me, and I am quite capable of working out logically perfect solutions to fractal continuity.

You mean that progress which is code word for bringing everything to a standstill with nothing IC actually happening yet because everyone was too caught up in you refusing to accept that a mentor (let alone others) said you were incorrect in various things? If not, then you should share that progress with the rest of us so we can actually do something. It's been weeks now with jack shit done. When can we change that?

To be honest, I wouldn't even waste my time anymore.

Starting to think that quite a bit recently....

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

it's that I can make far more progress leaving them behind - I don't have to take everybody with me, and I am quite capable of working out logically perfect solutions to fractal continuity.

[Fallacies]

To be honest, I wouldn't even waste my time anymore.

Starting to think that quite a bit recently....

Obviously you don't agree with me, and it ought to be bloomin' obvious that I've given up trying to change some people's minds. I prefer to give my time to people who deserve it. So please do stop wasting time.

[Inyourfaceistan]

You know I was about to post this in the Continental Blockade thread, but I realized that thread is mostly clear of OOC drama and we are on the verge of an agreement finally.

So I figured it's better to toss a live grenade in the dumpster than leave a dormant landmine in the garden so I will briefly retract my previous statement just in time to post this lovely gem that has some final implications to do with (but isn't entirely based upon) the OOC debate of logic and evidence vs rhetoric and fallacy:

http://www.nationstates.net/nation=inyo ... /id=670335

Enjoy!

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

I can see you don't understand what we've been arguing about.

[New Aeyariss]

I can see you don't understand what we've been arguing about.

You know, at one point I was thinking of accepting this design.

Because then single A10T Tenrai with proper BVRAAM would have allowed the Nihonese to destroy a costly piece of useless equipment, dealing enormous damage to economy of the enemy. Not to mention that I could modify ABM for that purpose and have fun with causing huge blow to Ausitorian military at cheap cost.

I am surprised why Ralk or any of those never tried this yet.

As for my supposed "lack of answer" I answered you countless times - that what you are doing is PMT at best, and to be honest is a poor attempt at gaining "technological edge' over us (which won't help you at all because it was never technology that won the wars). In short, you are trying to above all cost get an edge without realizing the cost. I for example prefer using proven and tested technology because I know it works and can relate to RL experiences when judging results.

My major problem with you is that you are always opting for only two terms - either your way or no way. Certain Hemitheans confirmed that (heard that you quit once they switched to realistic populations). Problem is that RPing isn't about stuff going "your way".

Thank you.

[Inyourfaceistan]

I can see you don't understand what we've been arguing about.

Well can I see you didn't read a word I wrote and just looked at the pretty picture, considering I believe I did an effective job of explaining why arguments such as "NS economics don't work like RL economics" are fallacious, circular, anti-scientific and open up a whole host of other questions that cannot be answered, and in your case explained why it is in poor form to use such an argument in place of facts or evidence.

In conclusion, because you have been unable to provide evidence or citations of such an invention, and instead applied a fallacious argument; anybody with any knowledge of the general scientific method cannot be expected to believe your "invention" is realistic because to do so is expecting us to assume a positive result to an untested hypothesis.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case.

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

The important question is whether something is feasible on the balance of probability.

I do not expect anyone to be absolutely certain my invention is realistic (it would be arrogant and wrong of me to think so myself), and equally I would have hoped nobody would have become absolutely certain it was not realistic.

Deciding which is more probable can only be discussed once people know what they're discussing - which you don't, because I have barely started to try to tell you, and neither of you have paid any attention anyway, which is why I've stopped telling you. I know when to give up on trying to improve you - there's no point in trying to carry out a logical analysis if you assume crucial bits of the argument that you haven't looked at don't work.

I am surprised why Ralk or any of those never tried this yet.

Because they are kept out of danger's way. They are glorified airship to orbit systems, and your believing that they are about to be used over enemy front lines displays a complete lack of understanding of Ausitorian strategy (which I have come to expect from you, because you either never listen or understand when I explain it).

(It also suggests that you still don't know what we're talking about. You seem to think I have designed a star destroyer. You might as well say I have designed a death star or a tardis. It sounds cool but it ain't true).

As for my supposed "lack of answer"

I have never asked you for an answer about whether it works or not. Nobody can give a definite answer. Of course that has not stopped you from "answering" - several times. I expect you will continue "answering" regardless.

Problem is that RPing isn't about stuff going "your way".

My way is whatever seems to be, or is likely to be, the truth. You are more than welcome to stay out of it.

anybody with any knowledge of the general scientific method cannot be expected to believe your "invention" is realistic because to do so is expecting us to assume a positive result to an untested hypothesis.

What are you expecting, a result of five-sigma significance? Anybody with any knowledge of how to apply the general scientific method to theoretical inventions which, for one reason or another, cannot be tested, will know that waiting around for "absolute" experimental proof (being all relative anyway in a real world where there are always uncertainties) is about as useful as Waiting for Godot. Deductive arguments, as in the discovery of Pluto, are enough to be getting on with - it's all part of the principle that if something fundamental is true, it is repeatable everywhere, and hence one can look at probable cause without worrying about certainties or practical experimental results when neither can exist.

If you understood how productive using probability could be, we wouldn't be going round in circles. Then I might become more inclined to resume my explanations, so that we might discuss and agree on what counts as probable, and then you would be able to RP normally with me.

As it is, you haven't changed my mind, so now you get to choose what you do next: Arrogant certainty or curious uncertainty. I shall leave that decision to you.