Maroon Revolution [DIPLOMATIC|MT+|SEMI-OPEN|OOC]

[Guadalupador]

Oh great, this again...

[New Aeyariss]

The important question is whether something is feasible on the balance of probability.

And so you admit it. The problem is that "balance of probability" is not any certainty or empiric data to prove your statement.

I do not expect anyone to be absolutely certain my invention is realistic (it would be arrogant and wrong of me to think so myself), and equally I would have hoped nobody would have become absolutely certain it was not realistic.

Ah so you finally admit that it is not realistic! While I could for sure commend the design if this was PMT - because it would make a lot of sense in that case - I can not, with clean conscience, say it is a design that is possible in MT. This while design is based on assumption - and pretty wide one - that it works. Yet we all know that we are extremely limited in our knowledge and our assumptions are often wrong. This whole design is based on assumption, coupled with technology that hadn't been even tested once - which disqualify it from MT.

Because they are kept out of danger's way. They are glorified airship to orbit systems, and your believing that they are about to be used over enemy front lines displays a complete lack of understanding of Ausitorian strategy (which I have come to expect from you, because you either never listen or understand when I explain it).

And what you do when the enemy comes to harm it? Tenrai has roughly 1000 nautical miles combat radius without refueling (of course it depends on load). Modern BVRAAMs have often speeds around Mach 6 and range of 300km-400km for head - on interception.

Now, when we couple it with mechanics of space flight there exists a lot of ways how a Tenrai regiment could attack such airship. Citing the fact that on high attitude air resistance is minimal, I could with ease hit the "Delta" - especially that it's size would make it far easier target than satellite.

I have never asked you for an answer about whether it works or not. Nobody can give a definite answer. Of course that has not stopped you from "answering" - several times. I expect you will continue "answering".

And this is exactly what disqualifies it from MT, although I can give you a honest answer that it won't.

My way is whatever seems to be, or is likely to be, the truth. You are more than welcome to stay out of it.

So I take that you were right with "acoustic datalinks"? No - you were not. Both Lamoni and me proven you wrong, and I would kindly recommend you to realize that you are not omnipotent and you do not know everything.

What are you expecting, a result of five-sigma significance? Anybody with any knowledge of how to apply the general scientific method to theoretical inventions which, for one reason or another, cannot be tested, will know that waiting around for "absolute" experimental proof (being all relative anyway in a real world where there are always uncertainties) is about as useful as Waiting for Godot. Deductive arguments, as in the discovery of Pluto, are enough to be getting on with - it's all part of the principle that if something fundamental is true, it is repeatable everywhere, and hence one can look at probable cause without worrying about certainties or practical experimental results when neither can exist.

Problem is that it isn't. It is otherwise - can you give me one proof that ideas shown in your patent will ever work? How about those guys being wrong? They may be too.

There was ton of amazing designs that proven impossible. For example in 1937 on Dzerzhinsky naval engineers' academy in Saint Petersburg certain Russian scientist known as Boris Ushakov proposed a concept of flying submarine. The design gotten off the ground - it was evaluated by the scientists and given a go by the soviet government. And do you know why today no flying submarines threaten US coasts?

Because the design failed. Same as it happened with a seaplane fighter. It failed not because the designer was ignorant - but because they found unforeseen problems on their way in.

This, 2ria, is how discoveries are made. I learned that principles with my designs long ago. I prefer to base them on tested, proven and simple concepts that I know will work. Simplicity is a good thing in itself. More complex you make it - more it will fail. Take a look at good ol` AK - 47. That rifle will work everywhere, you can pour water into it, put it into the sand - and it will still shoot.

Problem is that you can't prove that this design works. This disqualifies it from being MT.

If you understood how productive using probability could be, we wouldn't be going round in circles. Then I might become more inclined to resume my explanations, so that we might discuss and agree on what counts as probable, and then you would be able to RP normally with me.

A good way of hiding "I have no arguments to defend my design; let's assume it works". Make no mistake, I have no hostile intentions to you - I am just disproving a tech wank.

As it is, you haven't changed my mind, so now you get to choose what you do next: Arrogant certainty or curious uncertainty. I shall leave that decision to you.

I don't know what arrogance has to do in here with anything. We are talking about proofs of concepts. If you want to gain advantage over Nihon, then you have lots of other areas to look at - needless to say I am not impressed by the operations in bluewell...

[Inyourfaceistan]

I hate to give up, because I'm the kind of person who both consciously and subconsciously associates giving up with defeat; but I'm going back to what I said earlier... I'm done here. I don't care who gets the last word in anymore.

I tried giving that invention a chance so I asked for sources, I asked for evidence, and got nothing other than back-handed comments being an idiot and our "pig-headed ignorance" for questioning the realism of something that can't be proven real.

Instead of test results, schematics, proof-of-concept, research, working models, anything; all I received was a very overused and cliché arguement along the lines of "NS economies don't work like RL economies", which due to the fact it is a common argument I addressed here.

I had originally typed out a long, point-by-point reply disputing Libraria's claims, but if someone refuses to provide sources to support their claim and utilizes circular logic, then why should I expect this time around to be any different? I still have the draft saved in case anyone wants to see it, but then again if you are as tired of this repetitive bullcrap as I am, then you definitely don't want to.
Again my nature wants me to argue this point until the bitter end, but when faced with someone who can't cite their claims with facts and blatantly disregards the scientific method, then what can I do?

So I said it before and went back on my word; but it won't happen again.
I'm out...

[New Aeyariss]

I had originally typed out a long, point-by-point reply disputing Libraria's claims, but if someone refuses to provide sources to support their claim and utilizes circular logic, then why should I expect this time around to be any different? I still have the draft saved in case anyone wants to see it, but then again if you are as tired of this repetitive bullcrap as I am, then you definitely don't want to.

Rather the issue IYF is that explaining this stuff is like explaining TIE fighter's engine. It is based on RL technology (Ion engine) but it is still S-F work...

Same with this vaccum airship. I am not saying that it can't be scientifically explained, rather that it can't be created with modern technology, and would offer little advantage if it was built. It is a wank - attempt on gaining technological advantage which really gives no advantage.

[New Chilokver]

Oh, vacuum airships are possible. Just completely impractical.

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

Ardoki, in Novo Wagondia's continued absence, I'm inclined to go with Flardania's opinion, and to conclude the IFC would, after several day's consideration, have decided not to let Moriarty attend WorldVision.

This means that some things may need to be retconned.

However, before we get out the chainsaws, I also think it unlikely (to the point of being absurdly unrealistic) that Moriarty would not have been turned over the IFC at some point in the first few days of the investigation, either in the days immediately before or after Adoki joined the IFC, back when Ardoki was promising full co-operation. If you really want Moriarty for canon purposes, which is fair enough, surely you could easily find/make a double/clone instead, as we discussed earlier? I don't think we need to retcon that far back.

Indeed, as for retconning more recent stuff, I see no reason why Ardoki could not have sent a duplicate Moriarty to WorldVision and pretended that it was the IFC version that had been given permission and had been able to escape. This would have the triple effect of confusing everybody ICly (and OOCly if desired) about which Moriarty was the real version, ensuring nobody ICly knows who is telling the truth, and (importantly) avoiding any OOC requirement to retcon anything at all about Moriarty and WorldVision. The result of that would be a win-win-win situation: an RP which is more interesting rather than less interesting, no fracture in continuity, and more time available for other RPing since we won't need to alter the past.

Ardoki, any chance you could let me know about this?

---

Is it just me, or is this is a complete non-sequitur?

The important question is whether something is feasible on the balance of probability.

I do not expect anyone to be absolutely certain my invention is realistic (it would be arrogant and wrong of me to think so myself), and equally I would have hoped nobody would have become absolutely certain it was not realistic.

Ah so you finally admit that it is not realistic!

I.e., has Cuscy finally decided the rules of logic are not for him?

I haven't yet got any responses to this, so I still don't know. All I can say is that on balance of probability it seems likely.

And what you do when the enemy comes to harm it? Tenrai has roughly 1000 nautical miles combat radius without refueling (of course it depends on load). Modern BVRAAMs have often speeds around Mach 6 and range of 300km-400km for head - on interception.

Given that Ausitoria controls an area 5000 nautical miles across, I'm sure it can use what is essentially an airbase without it being attacked by anything less than a ballistic (or at least semi-ballistic) missile which would likely be mistaken for a first strike.

And this is exactly what disqualifies it from MT

No it doesn't - from my point of view. The other point of view is:

Any decent MT RPer knows that their things should work in theory if they don't exist, and that the reason(s) why they don't exist IRL should not matter in NS.

It's actually the same standard by which anybody here designs a normal tank with a 120 mm cannon - nobody has actually built the exact tank you design, pixel by pixel, but you know that it should work in theory and nobody's going to ask you to build a real version IRL, because everybody knows that a conventional tank works in theory, and you know it doesn't exist IRL because people can't be arsed to try every single possible permutation of a tank, which of course doesn't apply to NS because you want your tank how you design it rather than how someone else has designed them IRL.

The trouble starts when most people don't know what else can work in theory but isn't used in practice because, for example, it's not economical IRL. Or when you don't agree on whether anybody should invest money in it in NS either - for instance, I would have grave reservations about 99% of NS using Lyras' nuclear-engine bomber, because for all except about a dozen nations, it does not make any sense to invest in all the infrastructure required, unless your military spending is over about $10 trillion, focused on long-distance concerns, and the nation happens to have a plot of flat space where nuclear radiation is not a concern...

Both Lamoni and me proven you wrong, and I would kindly recommend you to realize that you are not omnipotent and you do not know everything.

You are being silly. I know that I do not know anything for certain, and if you had an ounce of sense you should know the same. Robert Rubin was probably absolutely correct in his assessment: 'Some people are more certain of everything than I am of anything.'

However I can probably judge what is probable in some areas, and can probably judge what is probable is some areas with much better accuracy than in some other areas. If you cared to check the record, you will notice that I agreed with Lamoni on everything regarding acoustic communications. (I know it is a long post, but you should read it before you invent allegations).

On the other hand, I probably know rather more in this particular area, otherwise I would not be maintaining my position in the face of such unpopularity.

Deductive arguments, as in the discovery of Pluto, are enough to be getting on with - it's all part of the principle that if something fundamental is true, it is repeatable everywhere, and hence one can look at probable cause without worrying about certainties or practical experimental results when neither can exist.

Problem is that it isn't. It is otherwise - can you give me one proof that ideas shown in your patent will ever work? How about those guys being wrong? They may be too.

In the example of Pluto, I count the 1905 discovery as sufficient. You can have a stricter standard than me for what you consider realistic.

Which means, at last, that this argument has gone somewhere interesting.

Problem is that you can't prove that this design works. This disqualifies it from being MT.

I hate to break it to you, but you are NOT the arbiter of what is and what is not MT.

The opinion of the old guard on what counts as MT, which I also do not agree with, is that with higher investment, certain immediate advances are likely, and should be considered MT.

My opinion of what counts as MT, and the opinion I always RP by, is that as long as something is probably technically feasible based on present technology, based on deductive calculations, it is MT. This allows for imagination on a greater scale than RL, which is the only reason why I bother with RPing.

You can continue to use whatever the hell your standard is in your RPs, and I will continue to use my own well-defined standard in my RPs.

Deal?

(And if you think it is improbable that my proposal is technically feasible, why the hell don't you start arguing on technical details, rather than all this idiotic time-wasting?)

Instead of test results, schematics, proof-of-concept, research, working models, anything

I am slowly starting to provide the proof for why I think it is probably technical feasible.

It is:
1. Factually untrue of you to argue otherwise,
2. Idiotic of you to expect absolute proof,
3. Discourteous of you to waste my time not arguing about technical details,
4. Absurd of you to think that people who haven't yet seen my entire design can judge whether it is probably technically feasible, and
5. Downright dangerous that you think the scientific method (or anything at all) is built on certainty.

[New Chilokver]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but can you actually explain how the Delta-class work? I'm not asking about its lifting method- I have little doubt a vacuum airship is feasible, especially in higher stratospheric altitudes where the outside air pressure exerts nowhere near the amount of force that plagues such designs at sea level.

No, I want to ask about its other capabilities- weaponry, propulsion etc. I understand that the design is nuclear powered; how does that work? Is it similar to experiments done by the US and Soviets in the 20th century, where instead of using a jet engine to heat and expel air, the heat generated by a nuclear reactor was used (thus the engine served both as a method of cooling the reactor and generating thrust) or a completely different design?

What kinds of self-defence is it equipped with? AAMs most likely- I doubt you'd have the weight to fit cannon and other ballistic weapons given the shielding you'd need for your nuclear reactors. That also means that armour is completely out of the question, as it should be.

How do aircraft dock and refuel? How are fuel and supplies even loaded? Does the entire airship descend every so often for maintenance and resupply, or is it all done in mid-air with deliveries via other aircraft/airships?

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but can you actually explain how the Delta-class work?

Of course. I'm currently in the process of doing it properly in detail - most of my mistake with this argument was not presenting everything at the same time, so that people still couldn't see how it worked, and made far too hasty judgements - why, most of the comments on Milrealism were made before I even explained it used a vacuum (obviously an airship would expand and then go pop) - and Lamoni's comments made before I even explained the partial vacuum (obviously full vacuum results in too much stress) - so, as a disclaimer:

Provided that you won't leap to the conclusion that it's impossible until I have time to present the argument in proper detail, I'm happy to give a brief answer.

No, I want to ask about its other capabilities- weaponry, propulsion etc. I understand that the design is nuclear powered; how does that work? Is it similar to experiments done by the US and Soviets in the 20th century, where instead of using a jet engine to heat and expel air, the heat generated by a nuclear reactor was used (thus the engine served both as a method of cooling the reactor and generating thrust) or a completely different design?

When I said nuclear powered, I originally meant it in the same way as an aircraft carrier is nuclear powered. I.e. the electricity is supplied by nuclear power. So certainly for the first of these airships that would be the end of it, with propulsion supplied by chemical rockets, or ion engines in case it ever did get into space.

It might also be used to help heat chemical propellant, although I don't know whether that would be of any significance and worth the trouble or complexity. I have also been looking closely at nuclear engines, but I haven't yet decided regarding fission (for this project). One of the things about heating air is that you need to be at a low enough altitude for there to be a decent number of air molecules, so I doubt there'd be much point in using it on a high-altitude craft, although I could easily be wrong on that matter, e.g. if fewer air molecules could simply be excited to a much higher temperature, although it might well need a scoop and would run into the problem of what temperature means when there aren't enough collisions in air as one starts to leave the continuum flow regime. (I suppose one could also look at slight plasma confinement). But given the possibility of leaks and radiation Ausitoria would anyway not be too inclined to make it a standard for the class, and would probably simply limit such ideas to an experimental test-bed variant.

One interesting point is that the very existence of a reduced cost to orbit scheme like the spaceship would itself make antimatter harvesting (see the Plasma Magnet capture details) marginally economical, thereby raising the possibility of using antimatter propulsion for the spaceships themselves. It would be rather neat for the spaceship to enable the resource acquisition that later allows them to actually get into space.

Indeed, unless I am wrong about the whole feasibility of the delta-class, Ausitoria has already stuck a particle collection system in the appropriate location - antimatter is valuable, whatever its use.

But I haven't yet done enough research into the practicalities of antimatter propulsion engines to be confident that it would probably work - I'd welcome opinions on the subject from any experts.

What kinds of self-defence is it equipped with? AAMs most likely- I doubt you'd have the weight to fit cannon and other ballistic weapons given the shielding you'd need for your nuclear reactors. That also means that armour is completely out of the question, as it should be.

Besides EM protection, some re-entrance thermal protection for any quasi-de-orbiting, and space-dust protection, there is no armour at all. (That is what 'classified' means - ). It does have a magnetic launcher running down the centre which could probably fire something, and also since it has considerable electrical power available from its nuclear reactor, different ships would be experimenting with lasers and other such direct energy weapons, although these would likely be limited to intercepting smaller items of space debris.

But as you correctly identify, missiles would be the likely mainstay of their defense, at least until electricity-based systems make more progress in the coming years.

(When I say mainstay of defence, this is if you don't count the decision to stay very far out of harms' way. Just like an aircraft carrier, sometimes the best defence is staying out of reach of the enemy. And since the delta-class would be a base for semi-orbital patrols, the enemy still wouldn't be out of reach).

How do aircraft dock and refuel? How are fuel and supplies even loaded? Does the entire airship descend every so often for maintenance and resupply, or is it all done in mid-air with deliveries via other aircraft/airships?

In reverse order: The entire airship can descend, although to only six locations (five being still under construction) in Ausitoria. Naturally it would require slow repressurization as it descended to avoid busting the extremely strong but relatively puny landing gear (or the extremely strong but relatively puny runway).

And then it would take about a day for the vacuum pumps to slowly depressurize it back up to a decent altitude again. (It's not a fast response if it's on the ground).

But I think it probable that it can be resupplied at lower altitudes (probably 30-40 km) by balloon, with guided tow-lines fired to clamp onto the 'basket' and tow it along.

Naturally it would have to be going at a sensibly slow speed for docking. Magnets could assist in guiding the aircraft inside and then decelerating it, or tow-lines might be used, but the "aircraft" should ideally be equipped with maneuvering rockets to do it properly and safely. Again you are quite right to use the word 'dock' instead of 'land'.

Once inside they would be able to go into the hanger, which would be partially pressurized. (Handily, at about an altitude of 50 km, there's a window where the ambient air temperature is not at all bad, and an internal bay could probably be heated to a reasonable positive temperature. So I expect the spaceships would tend to hang around at about 40 km, occasionally thrusting up a bit to support space operations, and occasionally descending a bit to pick up balloons).

Of course forming any air-link, just like space-docking, is a precise, computer intensive, and hazardous business (although having said that, if it's feasible for trains to dock it can't be all that difficult).

But unfortunately we haven't been able to move on to a discussion on how practical the business of docking could be, so for the moment I assume that these delta-class ships simply tend to avoid fuel-wasteful maneouvers (i.e. don't move around very much anyway).

As another means for refueling aircraft, refueling probes could also come into play if an aircraft is going to continue on immediately after being refueled, although the spacecraft cannot be expected to serve as a long-term refueling tanker for hundreds of aircraft for the simple reason that that amount of fuel would be prohibitively heavy.

As another means for refueling the ship, Ausitoria is also building a serious skyscraper with a spike going up for several kilometers in a mountainous area, and plans to stick a refueling line on top to allow direct refueling a dozen km above, although obviously that's very location-specific refueling and the spaceship would have to stay put for a while. (If a skyscraper can be more than a mile high, then I think it probable that a spike can go up for a considerably higher distance, if you allow for a large enough base area, distribute helium cells to cancel half the weight, nullify the elevator problem by limiting the number of people inside, and provide a good reason for actually building such a colossally expensive and enormous structure).

So quite a lot of possibilities available, as you can see. (That's one of the reasons why I'm confident that it's practical, one way or another; once you get over the structural issues).

And that, my friends, is a brief outline. (And you wonder why I haven't yet finished going into details, and why I am so cross that you've reached your conclusions in less than six months).

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

Ardoki, I'm going to have to move the IFC Council on on Sunday - if you'd like us to take your (OOC) views on the continuity into account, please do let us know what they are by then. Otherwise I'll stick with the duplicates so that both sides can be right. Hope your studies are going well!

[New Aeyariss]

I will reply to this soon. My apologies, health is not good for me.

[Marquesan]

As much as I respect both Marquesan and Pharthan... I had ton of issues with certain Marq's designs.

Thank you for the respect. You're right, though, and I want to apologize in advance for this rant. It's not directed at you, it also doesn't really belong right here where it is, but I'm going to spoiler it in hopes that it isn't perceived as threadjacking, it just needs to be said. To be fair, I'm not a missile designer in real life. The only way to make better designs is to keep designing, ya know? The newer revisions are actually really good and quite a lot of it is based from real world numbers. I've changed the way I design things. MTD is going to get a major relaunch when I have the time to do the necessary editing work. (Really is quite a chore with as much as I work.)

My point is that, while I can't speak for every storefront, my stuff is in a near constant state of revision. I just finished major reworks of my fighter aircraft and posted the redesigns to the catalog. There's quite a change in the way they're presented. I've done a lot of background work in stuff nobody ever reads to make sure that it's all on the level. Really, honestly, there's a good case to be made for old MTD stuff being pretty friggin' wild, but so was early Soviet design. Nuclear trains and huge propaganda planes and such.

I still consider Myrmidon Tactical Design to be a PMT company; I say so in the first page of the catalog. If you want my opinion, I think the "hard MT" purists are ridiculous. Who the hell cares; it's a game anyway. Right? We can all agree that we're indulging in a mental game here and that it doesn't actually matter, right? So if I want to, say, design an airship powered by a small nuclear reactor that launches drones... now, nobody is going to argue with me that all three things exist, are they? Small, lightweight gas-cooled reactors have been made and run successfully. Lots of drones in the world, lots of airships in the world. Hell, the US Navy built an airship carrier back in the 1920s. A pair of them, in fact. USS Akron and USS Macon. So... in what respect would such a design be not MT? Just because nobody's thought of it yet/had the funds to commission one built? I think that's hardly fair. It's unorthodox, it probably wouldn't be useful in the real world, but NS is hardly the real world, is it? Nobody's got a country with nine or ten billion people; warships a kilometer long aren't transiting the US mid-atlantic seaboard. There aren't Death Ships crusing the Indian Ocean (at least that we know about) but we accept these things in NS because it's fun to imagine. Because it's an innocent game we can all enjoy. But back to the matter at hand.

I think you'll find, if you look, that a lot of things have changed since the early days a few years ago. MTD tanks now run on diesel/electric hybrid powertrains; I took the time to design new guns, calculated their ballistics, etc. Took my baseline data from contemporary weapons that actually do exist, listed my sources, showed how I calculated everything.. Did the same thing with missiles; all my missiles are brand new, they're all in the Myrmidon Systems Archive. I'm going waaaaay out of the way to be transparent in showing my work on how my designs actually come to be. I don't see that many of the other companies on GE&T doing that.

Anyway, I'm not putting all this on your shoulders my friend, I'm just saying that if it's been a while since last you looked, MTD is changing for the better and I'd invite you to look at the new Chimera MBT, or the new fighters. Blackheart, Spitfire, Revenant. The newest revision of Divine Wind is worth your time, too. Browse the Systems Archive and see the new missiles, read about the Fusil Automatique guns. Some of the old designs are bad, you're right, I'm phasing them out. When MTD relaunches, it'll be with far more refined products than it had at the beginning.

I've learned so, so much in the process of making my storefront and developing its products. I've studied all kinds of subjects I had no interest in and really knew nothing about. I've learned about how things are made, learned about developing technologies. It's changed my thinking in many ways, and so the things I'm designing now are really nothing like what I made at first. My early products were shots in the dark; the new stuff is based on practical modern analogues and developed, run through calculators, fact-checked and doublechecked for consistency. It's a night and day difference.[/rant]

[New Aeyariss]

Thank you for the respect. You're right, though, and I want to apologize in advance for this rant. It's not directed at you, it also doesn't really belong right here where it is, but I'm going to spoiler it in hopes that it isn't perceived as threadjacking, it just needs to be said. To be fair, I'm not a missile designer in real life. The only way to make better designs is to keep designing, ya know? The newer revisions are actually really good and quite a lot of it is based from real world numbers. I've changed the way I design things. MTD is going to get a major relaunch when I have the time to do the necessary editing work. (Really is quite a chore with as much as I work.)

Don't worry, I myself worked a lot on my designs. And I have to say that your designs are far from being bad - they are PMT, but they are not bad. I know how much it takes to design a single thing considering that I am running a storefront myself - besides I linearted for Holy Marsh and am working for design for Lamoni.

My point is that, while I can't speak for every storefront, my stuff is in a near constant state of revision. I just finished major reworks of my fighter aircraft and posted the redesigns to the catalog. There's quite a change in the way they're presented. I've done a lot of background work in stuff nobody ever reads to make sure that it's all on the level. Really, honestly, there's a good case to be made for old MTD stuff being pretty friggin' wild, but so was early Soviet design. Nuclear trains and huge propaganda planes and such.

I worked on Murakami enough to know this .

I still consider Myrmidon Tactical Design to be a PMT company; I say so in the first page of the catalog. If you want my opinion, I think the "hard MT" purists are ridiculous. Who the hell cares; it's a game anyway. Right? We can all agree that we're indulging in a mental game here and that it doesn't actually matter, right? So if I want to, say, design an airship powered by a small nuclear reactor that launches drones... now, nobody is going to argue with me that all three things exist, are they? Small, lightweight gas-cooled reactors have been made and run successfully. Lots of drones in the world, lots of airships in the world. Hell, the US Navy built an airship carrier back in the 1920s. A pair of them, in fact. USS Akron and USS Macon. So... in what respect would such a design be not MT? Just because nobody's thought of it yet/had the funds to commission one built? I think that's hardly fair. It's unorthodox, it probably wouldn't be useful in the real world, but NS is hardly the real world, is it? Nobody's got a country with nine or ten billion people; warships a kilometer long aren't transiting the US mid-atlantic seaboard. There aren't Death Ships crusing the Indian Ocean (at least that we know about) but we accept these things in NS because it's fun to imagine. Because it's an innocent game we can all enjoy. But back to the matter at hand.

Well, at least you state it is a PMT instead of ridiculously claiming to MT. I am not "hard MT purist" myself - in the past I designed a seaplane dwarfing yours, compound helicopters and am currently working on a space weapon to down Ausitorian blimp you here presented. Major problem is, that, as we earlier presented, is that such designs often are based on assumptions and contain technical holes that various people attempt to exploit in combat. I have been always playing tactically, spending hours on planing single campaign. In the past my general policy was to accept such designs and down them with tested technologies exploiting holes in such designs that were left to me.

As a good example: Many people built 1km long warships, powered by 8 nuclear generators. When we couple noise made from such machinery we can surely assume that this kind of noise will make all ASW attempts useless - citing the fact that single soviet Alfa driving on 2 generators was heard in Miami when it came out of North Pole (now imagine amount of machinery and power for 1500m long warship). Many submarine carrier designs I seen would also project so big amount of noise that all they would become would be a simple shooting practice for ASW forces.

Friends of mine portrayed enormous amount of arguments earlier with this thread - dealing not as much with realism, but with possibility or practicality of such design. Romic portrayed technical concerns, I portrayed operational one. And while I surely believe that some things are fun to imagine, I also fully believe that some things break "MT" barrier and are simply impossible to be built - especially when their sole reason for existence is to get a wank advantage over other players, which I will nullify as soon as I finish that IFV for macabees.

I think you'll find, if you look, that a lot of things have changed since the early days a few years ago. MTD tanks now run on diesel/electric hybrid powertrains; I took the time to design new guns, calculated their ballistics, etc. Took my baseline data from contemporary weapons that actually do exist, listed my sources, showed how I calculated everything.. Did the same thing with missiles; all my missiles are brand new, they're all in the Myrmidon Systems Archive. I'm going waaaaay out of the way to be transparent in showing my work on how my designs actually come to be. I don't see that many of the other companies on GE&T doing that.

Building Diesel-Hybrid powertrain for a tank is far different from a vacuum airship, citing the fact that BAE already is on equipping CV90 with a Hybrid and Russians also have a hybrid APC. This however differs a lot from a vacuum airship.

I've learned so, so much in the process of making my storefront and developing its products. I've studied all kinds of subjects I had no interest in and really knew nothing about. I've learned about how things are made, learned about developing technologies. It's changed my thinking in many ways, and so the things I'm designing now are really nothing like what I made at first. My early products were shots in the dark; the new stuff is based on practical modern analogues and developed, run through calculators, fact-checked and doublechecked for consistency. It's a night and day difference.

I actually hope you will have fun with them . If you need someone to lineart for you, call. I am swarmed with orders now, but I linearted for Holy Marsh; I think you may be a client too .

[Ardoki]

I haven't been on the forums for a few weeks. I apologise for the leave of absence.

There was just a person who was being very insulting and demeaning. After the barrage of telegram abuse in addition to the false accusations and insults on the thread (another thread, not this one), I just couldn't take it any longer and decided to focus on my studies instead of worrying about responding to such insults.

I guess I'll have to just RP something about Moriarty and O'Brien being sentenced, as I think it was a grave mistake to consider an international trial when doing so would result in a loss of Ardokian sovereignty. I'll have to TG Ganos Lao when I have time.

[Ardoki]

I haven't been on the forums for a few weeks. I apologise for the leave of absence.

There was just a person who was being very insulting and demeaning. After the barrage of telegram abuse in addition to the false accusations and insults on the thread (another thread, not this one), I just couldn't take it any longer and decided to focus on my studies instead of worrying about responding to such insults.

I guess I'll have to just RP something about Moriarty and O'Brien being sentenced, as I think it was a grave mistake to consider an international trial when doing so would result in a loss of Ardokian sovereignty. I'll have to TG Ganos Lao when I have time.

Never mind that last part; I've been blocked for some reason.

[Guadalupador]

So this was all for naught? Wonderful.

[New Aeyariss]

There was just a person who was being very insulting and demeaning. After the barrage of telegram abuse in addition to the false accusations and insults on the thread (another thread, not this one), I just couldn't take it any longer and decided to focus on my studies instead of worrying about responding to such insults.

Mind if we know who that person was to determine truth in claims of false accusations? Let us solve this like men.

I guess I'll have to just RP something about Moriarty and O'Brien being sentenced, as I think it was a grave mistake to consider an international trial when doing so would result in a loss of Ardokian sovereignty. I'll have to TG Ganos Lao when I have time.

Well sorry but this was you who agreed on it in first time...

[Ardoki]

There was just a person who was being very insulting and demeaning. After the barrage of telegram abuse in addition to the false accusations and insults on the thread (another thread, not this one), I just couldn't take it any longer and decided to focus on my studies instead of worrying about responding to such insults.

Mind if we know who that person was to determine truth in claims of false accusations? Let us solve this like men.

I guess I'll have to just RP something about Moriarty and O'Brien being sentenced, as I think it was a grave mistake to consider an international trial when doing so would result in a loss of Ardokian sovereignty. I'll have to TG Ganos Lao when I have time.

Well sorry but this was you who agreed on it in first time...

I was under the assumption that what I initially agreed to was all that would happen; however, I didn't foresee other IFC members pushing far harsher demands on me. I initially didn't want to make a big fuss about it all (because I had committed to something), but it just got worse and worse, and I wasn't comfortable with how it developed (if I knew that Ardoki would basically be annexed by the IFC in all but name, I never would have agreed to anything).

I still want to go through with the trial and reforming Ardoki; however, some demands were unacceptable (both OOCly and ICly). I completely understand that with the numerous human rights violations and crimes against humanity, you don't want my government to get away with it; however, the annexation of my nation is too great a price to pay.

I thought we had a reasonable agreement for a while, but then multiple nations came back and demanded we sign individual treaties with each of them (some of which were probably made under the assumption that we could not accept them). I was probably very naive to believe that other countries would actually want to help Ardoki reform and not focus on crippling it. I should probably be less active on NS, and devote that time to writing something about the process of reform.

On the other matter at hand, I really don't want to discuss it. My time is a valuable resource, and I don't want to spend it in arguments or on the receiving-end of abuse (that's why I took a break from NS; I'm still not completely ready to come back).

[New Chilokver]

No one was trying to annex you, and you're not the victim. The demands we made of you were simple- hand over Moriarty and O'Brien for trial and punishment and allow the IFC to oversee the change in Ardokian government- notably the rounding up and trialling of war criminals who assisted the old regime, and allowing us to organize the new, democratic elections. No more, no less and certainly not at all harsh.

We had a reasonable agreement, in which you had the ability to ask for reasonable requests and compromises. You chose not to, instead preferring cryptic remarks and antagonizing statements which only further confused the issue. So please, be less active on NS- your time, and most importantly, the time of the rest of the RPing community is far too important to be spent on navigating the OOC quagmires that you set for us.

[Hatay]

No one was trying to annex you, and you're not the victim. The demands we made of you were simple- hand over Moriarty and O'Brien for trial and punishment and allow the IFC to oversee the change in Ardokian government- notably the rounding up and trialling of war criminals who assisted the old regime, and allowing us to organize the new, democratic elections. No more, no less and certainly not at all harsh.

We had a reasonable agreement, in which you had the ability to ask for reasonable requests and compromises. You chose not to, instead preferring cryptic remarks and antagonizing statements which only further confused the issue. So please, be less active on NS- your time, and most importantly, the time of the rest of the RPing community is far too important to be spent on navigating the OOC quagmires that you set for us.

I disagree. I think much of this is incorrect. I believe while Ardoki could have been much more clear and put more into the RP he created, he was very busy IRL and was sidetracked by that. He could have been more clear when he would be able to post and if he could at all, but RL is most important then NS, and he obviously had schoolwork, couldn't access a computer from vacation, etc. I think to tell him to get out is unfair, maybe we shouldn't try this RP line, clearly people have OOC disputes, but Ardoki I belive is a great part of this community. In the RP i felt that things were very unclear because while once person might make reasonable demands, other people were putting out different demands, and Ardoki was confused, sifting through all the different and overcomplicated demands about his country. I don't want to offend or upset anyone, I just want people to not hate each other OOCly, because that is never, ever, good.

[New Chilokver]

Maybe so. Then again, I think you'll find that all of us have our own lives and work to deal with. Hatay, perhaps you haven't RPed with, or seen RPs with Ardoki previously. Let me tell you now, that they have all ended pretty much like this. The problem here is not RL taking too much time, but that Ardoki demonstrates a clear inability to distinguish between OOC and IC, as shown by his expectance of us to abide by ICly OOC preferences he expressed. That, and his attitude in general I suppose. So when his nation suffers attacks and other undesirables IC, he retcons it because OOCly, he doesn't like it. You really think it was because of his lack of time and our barrage of requests that led to the abandonment of this RP? After he came under protection of the IFC, he was subject to one single resolution, clearly seen in the IFC Council thread. No, it's because he realised that he'll lose his favourite characters Moriarty and O'Brien that he chose to leave the IFC's protection. And then, when faced with the invasion of a few dozen countries, he claims lack of time and abandons this thread, because let's face it, he's not going to win that realistically.

Don't worry, I agree with you- OOC hate never ever leads to anything good- it's not worth it to vent your anger on such banal emotions. So be mature, and go beyond such petty dislikes and instead simply ignore and exclude them. Trust me, you'll be much better off for it.

[Ardoki]

The conditions I consented to were radically different from what was eventually forced on my nation. While I don't believe I was intentionally mislead, the sudden and unexpected change of the conditions seemed like an attempt to either annex Ardoki (if they were accepted) or destroy the agreement and potentially the entire RP (if I declined); whatever decision I made, I lost.

The reason I took time away from NS, was to avoid this type of harassment (which leads to a lot of stress for me). I've told the whole truth through the entirety of this thread; though, I understand that I cannot objectively prove my intentions. However, when people claim that I sabotaged this RP because I didn't want to lose some characters or was scared that I'd lose the RP; I get quite offended (because none of that is true).

When I eventually admitted that I didn't agree with the conditions changing after I had already accepted the agreement, I was the one of accused of breaking my word. All the valid points I've made have been ignored, despite having to repeat them several times. I offered to try and continue this RP, yet I was met with insults and continued arguments.

I could not handle all these false accusations. They were harmful and were causing me a great deal of stress; and since I have improved over the years, I knew I could not respond back in rage. That's why I left NS for a while, and I think I came back too early.

[Guadalupador]

We weren't going to annex you, that was never the intention. We wanted to find and prosecute war criminals that were still present within your system, and were going to run free unless the measures presented within the resolution were met. Two people can't just take the fall for an entire systematic program of genocide. I say this again and again and again. After the terms were met, you were free to reform as you pleased.

[Ardoki]

We weren't going to annex you, that was never the intention. We wanted to find and prosecute war criminals that were still present within your system, and were going to run free unless the measures presented within the resolution were met. Two people can't just take the fall for an entire systematic program of genocide. I say this again and again and again. After the terms were met, you were free to reform as you pleased.

The new conditions included the complete demobilisation of the Ardokian military and dismantling of the Ardokian government and civil service followed by a military occupation with the IFC taking absolute control over the running of my nation. Those new conditions were unequivocally unacceptable to me (OOCly and ICly).

Regardless of your intentions (which I don't believe were malicious), I could not OOCly accept what was almost a de facto annexation. With the IFC having complete control of my nation's government and commanding the only military forces within my nation's borders; the IFC could have easily formally annexed Ardoki without opposition (whether at that point, or at a much later date), not to mention the fact that they could just refuse to leave and set up a puppet government. ICly, my government would never, ever, have even considered accepting those demands; so this isn't solely based on OOC reasons.

I was not willing to risk handing control of my nation over to others. I'm naturally a very cautious person who tries to minimises risks; I'm always very wary of completely trusting others (on the slight chance that they may betray me, intentionally or unintentionally). I mean absolutely no offence with any of this, I don't consider anyone here untrustworthy.

If I did accept the conditions (which would have been incredibly unrealistic for my government to accept such humiliating and punitive demands when it does not have to), and something unexpected I did not consent to occurred (kind of like the original conditions I agreed to being rewritten after it was too late for me to back out) or there was a misunderstanding (e.g. both parties having different views of what was agreed to), I would be strongly attacked and criticised by many for objecting (despite never consenting to what was now occurring) just like has happened in this thread.

---

Honestly, I'm actually quite shocked at some people's reactions. I'm not complaining, but the treatment I'm receiving appears to be unfair. I did not ask to join the IFC, nor had I thought of joining before then. Someone requested I join the IFC, as a demonstration of my commitment to reforming Ardoki. I accepted the conditions I was given, proceeded to submit an application for membership, and was accepted. Then, the terms were changed, progressively getting more punitive and less acceptable. I can understand the anger some people felt about Ardokian membership, and I don't take issue with them trying to force harsher demands on me.

Right then and there, I should have just walked out; those were not the conditions I consented to, the agreement which was made had been destroyed at that point. But I stuck around, I didn't want to back out (I the reaction I would get) and hoped I could salvage the situation. That was a mistake. The demands got worse and worse, and the longer I remained silent about my objections the worse it would look when I eventually spoke out.

Yet here we are; I'm being accused of 'running away' and 'breaking the agreement'. Firstly, I was never consulted about a lot of this! I was in the middle of an RP involving the shooting down of an Ardokian satellite, only to discover the next day that the tread had been locked (which I was never warned about) and there was already a new thread about a blockade and potential invasion of Ardoki (which was at the very least surprising). This is in addition to all the drama with the IFC.

I did warn everyone about my timetable, and how I would only have time to RP properly in my holidays. But everyone just seemed to ignore that and expect me to deal with several different invasions all at once (I'm not a military expert, so it would take me many hours just to research for a decent post). People were outraged when I went back to university, it was as if they thought I was joking when I told everyone (so many times) about what I could handle.

I don't think any of this is fair, that's probably an overreaction, but that's honestly how I feel. I've witnessed selfish expectations that I should neglect my study, hypocritical expectations of my acceptance of things I never agreed to, plus a whole lot of insults and character defamation when I dared to object. I'm very thankful for some people who have defended me and accepted that some things I've had to deal with have been unreasonable, and I won't forget that. But some others, have just made me lose faith in NS (and humanity to a lesser extent).

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

We weren't going to annex you, that was never the intention. We wanted to find and prosecute war criminals that were still present within your system, and were going to run free unless the measures presented within the resolution were met. Two people can't just take the fall for an entire systematic program of genocide. I say this again and again and again. After the terms were met, you were free to reform as you pleased.

The new conditions included the complete demobilisation of the Ardokian military and dismantling of the Ardokian government and civil service followed by a military occupation with the IFC taking absolute control over the running of my nation.

No it didn't.

(See clauses 6 and 7, if you care to check).

[New Aeyariss]

The new conditions included the complete demobilisation of the Ardokian military and dismantling of the Ardokian government and civil service followed by a military occupation with the IFC taking absolute control over the running of my nation.

No it didn't.

(See clauses 6 and 7, if you care to check).

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Several IFC members had obviously different view on the issue than Ausitorian government - citing the fact that I have been involved in some planing . OS for example made it clear since the day one that he was going to begin military occupation, and I myself remember coordinating invasion plans with other IFC members.

Yet here we are; I'm being accused of 'running away' and 'breaking the agreement'. Firstly, I was never consulted about a lot of this! I was in the middle of an RP involving the shooting down of an Ardokian satellite, only to discover the next day that the tread had been locked (which I was never warned about) and there was already a new thread about a blockade and potential invasion of Ardoki (which was at the very least surprising). This is in addition to all the drama with the IFC.

And here, Ardoki, you are telling a false story. To begin with, the "blockade" begun only after RPing a meeting on a conference on which it was Ardokian delegation that hurled threats which could have been considered a declaration of war by some. For second, you should have walked out by then and told us "no" - but you hadn't. You hadn't said a single word back then, even I myself remember you agreeing on it and myself offering to help you with military stuff should you need it.

I did warn everyone about my timetable, and how I would only have time to RP properly in my holidays. But everyone just seemed to ignore that and expect me to deal with several different invasions all at once (I'm not a military expert, so it would take me many hours just to research for a decent post). People were outraged when I went back to university, it was as if they thought I was joking when I told everyone (so many times) about what I could handle.

There was actually only one invasion, one that was to be launched by several nations - many of them IFC - regardless of what Ausitorian IFC establishment had to say ( for example there was to be a joint Guadalupadorian - Nihonese operation to seize Ardokian oil rigs in arctic, and we agreed even on how to divide what we capture). And I understand you here as someone who is frequently interrupted by a disease.

I don't think any of this is fair, that's probably an overreaction, but that's honestly how I feel. I've witnessed selfish expectations that I should neglect my study, hypocritical expectations of my acceptance of things I never agreed to, plus a whole lot of insults and character defamation when I dared to object. I'm very thankful for some people who have defended me and accepted that some things I've had to deal with have been unreasonable, and I won't forget that. But some others, have just made me lose faith in NS (and humanity to a lesser extent).

You are treating a damn game like something more than it really is. Chill ...