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Tinfect
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5232
Founded: Jul 04, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tinfect » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:21 pm

Vistora wrote:Make it happen. Join the cool kids.


Did you miss something about Schizo-PMT?
And Airships?
And Post-Apocalyptic?

Admittedly, the Imperium I mentioned up there was just an NPC Nation, probably would've just been a puppet, but I still have the original concept lying around. With some mild-to-moderate edits, we have the following.


[Excerpt from Rebirth; A Wanderer's Guide to our New World, by Johannes Fleming]
The Unified City is the quasi-official name for the organizations that control the ruins of a City, the original name of which is now unknown. According to what few records survive, the City was the subject of a invasion during the collapse, the signs of this can be seen in the extreme damage to major parts of the city, and, until recent years, the various decaying munitions and war-machines that could be found within it. Further, the city was largely abandoned after the collapse, until the rise of the Consortium. Since then, however, the City has become a hub of commerce and industry, a rare sight in our new world, with only the declining Raen Imperium, and the New Civilization surpassing them.

These days, the city is ruled by three groups, most recent, and most powerful, is the Consortium itself. It is based in the Palatial District, where its shining towers and brilliant facades remain largely, and mysteriously, unscathed by the collapse, and the passage of time. Originally, it was merely a collection of Wandering traders, the sort that scavenged the land for supplies, which they would then pass on to other groups of wanderers, or to one of the many groups that litter our new world. Their Re-discovery of the city, was an unprecedented boon to them. Further still, that it held a small population, an educated few, that had hardly held on in the decaying ruins of their ancestors.

It was there that the first deal was struck. The city's inhabitants were to utilize the marvels of technology still held in the City to create goods, what would become the Consortium, would see them sold far and wide, returning with migrants and supplies, ensuring the growth and survival of the city. This was achieved, according to an admission extracted from a Consortium Trademaster with a quite valuable specimen of pre-collapse artistry, through the Slave Trade, as it had been prior to today's Raen monopoly on the market. Slaves, bought using the goods produced by the city's inhabitants, would be returned to the city, pressed into a brief period of work, and then granted their freedom. Most of the former-slaves remained in the city, as their newfound skills were of little use without the equipment of the City, and continued to provide goods for what would become the Consortium.

In time, the loose group of traders would become organized, whether through the acquisition of rival groups, or the simple natural tendency towards order, is unknown. In any case, the Consortium was formed, and the City, now swollen with workmen, merchants, and simple vagabonds alike, became as it is today.

Next, and perhaps most important, is the Foundry. Named for the Foundry district in which it resides and rules, they are the descendants of those the young Consortium first encountered and carried in. Men and Women of both great intellect and great skill reside there, and prior to their discovery by the Consortium, they had been the closest to the lost era to still live beyond the iron fist of the Raen. Inventors and engineers, scientists and philosophers, artists and tradesmen, but not a soldier, or hunter, or even farmer among them. Without the Foundry itself, even in its dilapidated state, they would have undoubtedly perished in the wastes, their great intellect and thought lost to the world. Had the Consortium not arrived when it did, the dwindling group would have hardly lasted a few years longer.

Yet it did, and today, they remain among the worlds most enlightened. While the men and women of Science and the Arts have retreated to the Palatial District with the rise of the Consortium, the Engineers and Workers stayed, and the great foundry was once more put wholly to work. Or, as close as it could come to it, in its current state.

Their role in the Unified City is of great importance, but of strangely little power. The Consortium is most heavily represented in their Government, and though their goals frequently align, where they depart from each-other, a schism grows. It seems as though every day the demands of the Consortium grow, and the ability of the Foundry to provide remains unchanged. Quotas are rarely met, due to the static capacities of the ancient foundry, and their desperation to fill them has resulted in several crippling accidents, from which the Foundry will never recover.

Finally, we come to the third, and by far, the weakest, section of this Unified City. The Lower District. It is much as it sounds, a piece of the city that sits below the great Foundry, and in the shadow of the Palatial District's spires. Yet it is somewhat more, for it is where the vast majority of the citizenry resides. Here, Merchants come and go, trading with the populace and the Consortium alike. The lower levels of the Foundry still open to the Public are constantly at work, producing tools for the workmen, and trinkets for traders, all as the Consortium guards watch to ensure their law is enforced.

The people of the Lower District are by no means oppressed, compared to those of the Raen Imperium, though, it is likely that the people of the New Civilization, or the Southern Territories would find the conditions appalling; Thieves are shot on suspicion alone. One may come and go as they please, associate as they wish, you may even refuse to eat, without Raen guards ensuring that you are fed. Though, why one would do such a thing is unknown. Further unlike the Raen though, the Unified City does not support those without the means to support themselves. The threat of starvation is constant enough with the City's isolation and poor soil, and even the Consortium, with all its resources, cannot afford to freely give to its people.

In its streets, one will find a great support of the New Civilization, though their efforts to relieve the lower district have been token at best, and even supporters of the Raen, for under their iron grip, one has enough to eat, whether by choice, or by force. They have little voice in their leadership, and the needs of the Lower District and the needs of the Consortium rarely align. The Consortium needs rounds for their soldiers, the Lower District needs water for their thirst. It is this disparity that leads many of the inhabitants of the Lower District to rebel against the Consortium, and as one nears the Palatial District, the violence becomes ever more present. Changing from a pair of protesters harassing a guard unwilling to fire on them, to a charging mob faltering under the rain of bullets from a line of Consortium soldiers. Yet, still, the Consortium has its supporters. Some seek a better fate in the Legion, others, seek work in the Foundry, fewer still are granted employment in the Consortium itself.


Yes, I wrote the concept in-character.
It was very jarring when I noticed this during the editing I mentioned.

I'll try and see if I can find any of the tech-notes I had lying around, otherwise I'll reconstruct it from memory.
Last edited by Tinfect on Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Raslin Seretis, Imperial Diplomatic Envoy, Male
Tolarn Feren, Civil Oversight Representative, Male
Jasot Rehlan, Military Oversight Representative, Female


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Imperium Central News Network: EMERGENCY ALERT: ALL CITIZENS ARE TO PROCEED TO EVACUATION SITES IMMEDIATELY | EMERGENCY ALERT: ALL FURTHER SUBSPACE SIGNALS AND SYSTEMS ARE TO BE DISABLED IMMEDIATELY | EMERGENCY ALERT: THE FOLLOWING SYSTEMS ARE ACCESS PROHIBITED BY STANDARD/BLACKOUT [Error: Format Unrecognized] | Indomitable Bastard #283
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Singaporean Transhumans
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Posts: 5748
Founded: Dec 31, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Singaporean Transhumans » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:37 pm

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=374094

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Vistora
Senator
 
Posts: 3600
Founded: May 25, 2015
Capitalizt

Postby Vistora » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:41 pm

Tinfect wrote:
Vistora wrote:Make it happen. Join the cool kids.


Did you miss something about Schizo-PMT?
And Airships?
And Post-Apocalyptic?

Admittedly, the Imperium I mentioned up there was just an NPC Nation, probably would've just been a puppet, but I still have the original concept lying around. With some mild-to-moderate edits, we have the following.


[Excerpt from Rebirth; A Wanderer's Guide to our New World, by Johannes Fleming]
The Unified City is the quasi-official name for the organizations that control the ruins of a City, the original name of which is now unknown. According to what few records survive, the City was the subject of a invasion during the collapse, the signs of this can be seen in the extreme damage to major parts of the city, and, until recent years, the various decaying munitions and war-machines that could be found within it. Further, the city was largely abandoned after the collapse, until the rise of the Consortium. Since then, however, the City has become a hub of commerce and industry, a rare sight in our new world, with only the declining Raen Imperium, and the New Civilization surpassing them.

These days, the city is ruled by three groups, most recent, and most powerful, is the Consortium itself. It is based in the Palatial District, where its shining towers and brilliant facades remain largely, and mysteriously, unscathed by the collapse, and the passage of time. Originally, it was merely a collection of Wandering traders, the sort that scavenged the land for supplies, which they would then pass on to other groups of wanderers, or to one of the many groups that litter our new world. Their Re-discovery of the city, was an unprecedented boon to them. Further still, that it held a small population, an educated few, that had hardly held on in the decaying ruins of their ancestors.

It was there that the first deal was struck. The city's inhabitants were to utilize the marvels of technology still held in the City to create goods, what would become the Consortium, would see them sold far and wide, returning with migrants and supplies, ensuring the growth and survival of the city. This was achieved, according to an admission extracted from a Consortium Trademaster with a quite valuable specimen of pre-collapse artistry, through the Slave Trade, as it had been prior to today's Raen monopoly on the market. Slaves, bought using the goods produced by the city's inhabitants, would be returned to the city, pressed into a brief period of work, and then granted their freedom. Most of the former-slaves remained in the city, as their newfound skills were of little use without the equipment of the City, and continued to provide goods for what would become the Consortium.

In time, the loose group of traders would become organized, whether through the acquisition of rival groups, or the simple natural tendency towards order, is unknown. In any case, the Consortium was formed, and the City, now swollen with workmen, merchants, and simple vagabonds alike, became as it is today.

Next, and perhaps most important, is the Foundry. Named for the Foundry district in which it resides and rules, they are the descendants of those the young Consortium first encountered and carried in. Men and Women of both great intellect and great skill reside there, and prior to their discovery by the Consortium, they had been the closest to the lost era to still live beyond the iron fist of the Raen. Inventors and engineers, scientists and philosophers, artists and tradesmen, but not a soldier, or hunter, or even farmer among them. Without the Foundry itself, even in its dilapidated state, they would have undoubtedly perished in the wastes, their great intellect and thought lost to the world. Had the Consortium not arrived when it did, the dwindling group would have hardly lasted a few years longer.

Yet it did, and today, they remain among the worlds most enlightened. While the men and women of Science and the Arts have retreated to the Palatial District with the rise of the Consortium, the Engineers and Workers stayed, and the great foundry was once more put wholly to work. Or, as close as it could come to it, in its current state.

Their role in the Unified City is of great importance, but of strangely little power. The Consortium is most heavily represented in their Government, and though their goals frequently align, where they depart from each-other, a schism grows. It seems as though every day the demands of the Consortium grow, and the ability of the Foundry to provide remains unchanged. Quotas are rarely met, due to the static capacities of the ancient foundry, and their desperation to fill them has resulted in several crippling accidents, from which the Foundry will never recover.

Finally, we come to the third, and by far, the weakest, section of this Unified City. The Lower District. It is much as it sounds, a piece of the city that sits below the great Foundry, and in the shadow of the Palatial District's spires. Yet it is somewhat more, for it is where the vast majority of the citizenry resides. Here, Merchants come and go, trading with the populace and the Consortium alike. The lower levels of the Foundry still open to the Public are constantly at work, producing tools for the workmen, and trinkets for traders, all as the Consortium guards watch to ensure their law is enforced.

The people of the Lower District are by no means oppressed, compared to those of the Raen Imperium, though, it is likely that the people of the New Civilization, or the Southern Territories would find the conditions appalling; Thieves are shot on suspicion alone. One may come and go as they please, associate as they wish, you may even refuse to eat, without Raen guards ensuring that you are fed. Though, why one would do such a thing is unknown. Further unlike the Raen though, the Unified City does not support those without the means to support themselves. The threat of starvation is constant enough with the City's isolation and poor soil, and even the Consortium, with all its resources, cannot afford to freely give to its people.

In its streets, one will find a great support of the New Civilization, though their efforts to relieve the lower district have been token at best, and even supporters of the Raen, for under their iron grip, one has enough to eat, whether by choice, or by force. They have little voice in their leadership, and the needs of the Lower District and the needs of the Consortium rarely align. The Consortium needs rounds for their soldiers, the Lower District needs water for their thirst. It is this disparity that leads many of the inhabitants of the Lower District to rebel against the Consortium, and as one nears the Palatial District, the violence becomes ever more present. Changing from a pair of protesters harassing a guard unwilling to fire on them, to a charging mob faltering under the rain of bullets from a line of Consortium soldiers. Yet, still, the Consortium has its supporters. Some seek a better fate in the Legion, others, seek work in the Foundry, fewer still are granted employment in the Consortium itself.


Yes, I wrote the concept in-character.
It was very jarring when I noticed this during the editing I mentioned.

I'll try and see if I can find any of the tech-notes I had lying around, otherwise I'll reconstruct it from memory.


You said PMT, and that was all I needed. Nevertheless, reading this excerpt has me rather interested now, what with it's distinctly punk-ish atmosphere.

User avatar
Tinfect
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5232
Founded: Jul 04, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tinfect » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:18 pm

Vistora wrote:You said PMT, and that was all I needed. Nevertheless, reading this excerpt has me rather interested now, what with it's distinctly punk-ish atmosphere.


Ah, thanks.
On that note, I found the Faction-Notes

Raen Imperium: Totalitarian Socialist State, happens to be the most powerful state around. It maintains a large territory to the North of just about everything. Unlike many other states, doesn't bother trying to lay claim to tracts of useless wasteland, and rarely comes into conflict with said other states through aggressive acts on its part. Territory consists mostly of land that remained somewhat unscathed by the Collapse and is generally able to support itself. Visitors and Immigrants shot on sight, without warning or notice. Very few people know what its like inside, and those that do rarely manage to get out alive. Keeps quite a bit of Pre-Collapse Tech lying in reserve, due to the rather remote location of its capital. Rumored to have existed since before the collapse, but it is impossible to tell if that is true, or just oft-repeated propaganda.
Unsustainable policies and extended periods of oppression have started to backfire quite soundly, and the Raen Imperium is about to be forced to expand its reach into the Wasteland to sustain itself.

New Civilization: Confederacy of minor states spread across the wasteland. Quite open to visitors and immigrants, and more than happy to engage with Traders. Very little is actually known about the Government, and it seems only to exist in the form of low-level officials that claim to work for the Central government. [Uncontrolled Raen Experiment Theory? Pre-Collapse Conspiracy Theory?]

The Unified City: A Pre-Collapse City divided into three parts, a massive, hugely advanced Factory that is capable of producing things beyond the comprehension of anyone still living, used to produce basic firearms and primitive but complex devices. Is only in partially functional condition, industrial accidents making it worse all the time. Ruled by a group of Traders that exists in Palatial District, controls everything in the city, does their damnedest to keep things running despite literally everything falling apart without any ability to stop it due to a combination of extreme circumstances and internal corruption. Lower District is about to explode because the Consortium is all kinds of not helping the situation down there, rebellion movement is driven primarily by pro-raen extremists, and implanted New Civilization personnel.


I think the Tech-Notes were the victims of an old .txt massacre a while back, so I'll reconstruct those.
However, besides the New-Civ not being exactly what it seems to be, I still don't know what to do with them, the notes up there still have two theories that I couldn't decide between.

Should note that the only ones up there are the "Major" Factions. There are more, but none of such scale as those three.
Last edited by Tinfect on Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Raslin Seretis, Imperial Diplomatic Envoy, Male
Tolarn Feren, Civil Oversight Representative, Male
Jasot Rehlan, Military Oversight Representative, Female


Bisexual, Transgender (She/Her), Native-American, and Actual CommunistTM.

Imperium Central News Network: EMERGENCY ALERT: ALL CITIZENS ARE TO PROCEED TO EVACUATION SITES IMMEDIATELY | EMERGENCY ALERT: ALL FURTHER SUBSPACE SIGNALS AND SYSTEMS ARE TO BE DISABLED IMMEDIATELY | EMERGENCY ALERT: THE FOLLOWING SYSTEMS ARE ACCESS PROHIBITED BY STANDARD/BLACKOUT [Error: Format Unrecognized] | Indomitable Bastard #283
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Excidium Planetis
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8066
Founded: May 01, 2014
New York Times Democracy

Postby Excidium Planetis » Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:55 pm

Vistora wrote:
Excidium Planetis wrote:
Yes. And no. Hybrid Airships are heavier than air, dirigibles are not.

Their size alone, combined with a speed hard for ground vehicles to match, unparalleled view, and the ability to soar over terrain, makes them excellent weapons platforms.


Their size makes them sitting ducks (remeber your whole conversation about not making a vehicle larger than its primary weapons and propulsion systems?), their speed is inferior to ordinary aerodynes, view is not generally a concern in warfare, and as far as soaring over terrain goes, see my previous comment about normal aerodynes.

Argument: ENGAGED!


But they would be incredibly hard to kill. Helium is a noble gas, and with multiple gasbags and that auto-hole-sealing stuff you use for your infantry suits, most small arms fire and incendiary weapons would be worthless. Only fragmentation shredding the bags, ridiculously huge explosions, or shotgun artillery would be effective.

Plus, regular aircraft do not have the lifting capacity that hybrid airships have.

Also, if speed is an issue, what about naval warships? Those are way slower than hybrid airships, but are still used as weapons.
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Vistora
Senator
 
Posts: 3600
Founded: May 25, 2015
Capitalizt

Postby Vistora » Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:38 pm

Excidium Planetis wrote:
Vistora wrote:
Their size makes them sitting ducks (remeber your whole conversation about not making a vehicle larger than its primary weapons and propulsion systems?), their speed is inferior to ordinary aerodynes, view is not generally a concern in warfare, and as far as soaring over terrain goes, see my previous comment about normal aerodynes.

Argument: ENGAGED!


But they would be incredibly hard to kill. Helium is a noble gas, and with multiple gasbags and that auto-hole-sealing stuff you use for your infantry suits, most small arms fire and incendiary weapons would be worthless. Only fragmentation shredding the bags, ridiculously huge explosions, or shotgun artillery would be effective.

Plus, regular aircraft do not have the lifting capacity that hybrid airships have.

Also, if speed is an issue, what about naval warships? Those are way slower than hybrid airships, but are still used as weapons.


Hard to kill? Perhaps, but given their size and lack of speed, not very difficult to disable. Taking out their propulsion and weapons systems would turn them into very expensive, very useless balloons, which shouldn't be difficult given how slow they are. Fragmenting explosives would absolutely shred the gasbags--see below for my comments on autosealing--and ground the aircraft very quickly, as not even a multitude of aerostat units could provide the redundancy to combat explosive shrapnel.

And as far as lifting capacity goes, no. The heaviest payloads I've managed to find for a proposed hybrid airship was 150 tons for a very largely unrealized flying saucer balloon (one that, I might add, included none of the numerous weight-adding features that would be expected of an armed military craft), as well as the similarly fanciful, unrealized, and stupidly massive Walrus HULA. This is in comparison to the modern C5 Galaxy's 125 ton load, an airplane that can move a hell of a lot faster and carry its cargo within its hold, rather than on a massive tether. An airship's lifting capacity only increases as a function of its aerostat unit volume, again affecting size and speed. Most proposed designs, however, barely exceed 50 tons.

Naval warships are not comparable in this regard, because what they lack in speed and operation range they make up in carrying about 50 times the payload weight of any airship in long-range cruise missiles. And in many ways, it was the sacrificing of operative agility for sheer armament that led to the heavy warship's downfall in the first place. A military hybrid airship would suffer the same issues of relative immobility while carry much less firepower. In order for hitching a gasbag to an airplane to be of any use, such a aerostat unit would need to be very large and therefore an encumbrance.

Indeed, the only military hybrid airship I've managed to dig up thus far that actually reached testing stages was a dinky little reconnaissance craft, and it couldn't even perform that function very well.

Now, I'll concede that you may conceivably be able to utilize fuckhuge hybrid airships as effective long-range transport craft, but not as weapons platforms. There's just no need to fit that much weaponry on a single massive vehicle.

Regarding your comment on autosealing materials in my infantry suits, I do believe you've confused the function of my bioprez layer. The bioprez layer doesn't re-seal the suit, it just automatically fills the space surrounding a rip in the suit with medical foam. Unless you're packing some hardcore inorganic-regeneration nanowankery, those holes aren't repairing themselves.
Last edited by Vistora on Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Excidium Planetis
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Posts: 8066
Founded: May 01, 2014
New York Times Democracy

Postby Excidium Planetis » Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:54 am

Vistora wrote:Hard to kill? Perhaps, but given their size and lack of speed, not very difficult to disable. Taking out their propulsion and weapons systems would turn them into very expensive, very useless balloons, which shouldn't be difficult given how slow they are.

What if they use a magnetic tether as a propulsion system? Seems a bit unfeasible, but it could allow internal propulsion. Additionally, such a craft could do a suicide run by expelling helium for propulsion. That would likely not provide the thrust necessary to overcome drag, however.

Fragmenting explosives would absolutely shred the gasbags--see below for my comments on autosealing--and ground the aircraft very quickly, as not even a multitude of aerostat units could provide the redundancy to combat explosive shrapnel.

What if each individual gasbag is covered in armor (some kind of Kevlar-like material, perhaps?), so as to minimize the risk of the gasbags being penetrated?

And as far as lifting capacity goes, no. The heaviest payloads I've managed to find for a proposed hybrid airship was 150 tons for a very largely unrealized flying saucer balloon (one that, I might add, included none of the numerous weight-adding features that would be expected of an armed military craft), as well as the similarly fanciful, unrealized, and stupidly massive Walrus HULA. This is in comparison to the modern C5 Galaxy's 125 ton load, an airplane that can move a hell of a lot faster and carry its cargo within its hold, rather than on a massive tether. An airship's lifting capacity only increases as a function of its aerostat unit volume, again affecting size and speed. Most proposed designs, however, barely exceed 50 tons.

Still a hell of a lot more than most HTA craft. Also, Hybrid Airships can get part of their lift from wings and thrust, unlikely most airships, so aerostat volume is not the only factor.

Naval warships are not comparable in this regard, because what they lack in speed and operation range they make up in carrying about 50 times the payload weight of any airship in long-range cruise missiles.

I'd bet you can build 50 times the hybrid airships for the cost of one naval warship. They are mostly helium and aluminium, anyways.

And in many ways, it was the sacrificing of operative agility for sheer armament that led to the heavy warship's downfall in the first place. A military hybrid airship would suffer the same issues of relative immobility while carry much less firepower. In order for hitching a gasbag to an airplane to be of any use, such a aerostat unit would need to be very large and therefore an encumbrance.

We aren't just hitching a gas bag to an airplane, we are building a rigid-hull craft that flies under its own power, but utilizes internal gasbags to dramatically decrease the lift necessary to keep it flying.

Indeed, the only military hybrid airship I've managed to dig up thus far that actually reached testing stages was a dinky little reconnaissance craft, and it couldn't even perform that function very well.

Give it a hundred years.

Now, I'll concede that you may conceivably be able to utilize fuckhuge hybrid airships as effective long-range transport craft, but not as weapons platforms. There's just no need to fit that much weaponry on a single massive vehicle.

Intimidation. Primitives love it when massive gun platforms appear in the sky and rain death on them.

Regarding your comment on autosealing materials in my infantry suits, I do believe you've confused the function of my bioprez layer. The bioprez layer doesn't re-seal the suit, it just automatically fills the space surrounding a rip in the suit with medical foam.

Wouldn't that foam prevent air from inside the suit from escaping? A similar idea of foam that expands to fill a rip could be used in the airship.

Unless you're packing some hardcore inorganic-regeneration nanowankery, those holes aren't repairing themselves.

It isn't nanowankery. You take some some sticky impermeable substance, compress it between two layers of stuff. Something rips a hole, the compressed substance expands to fill the hole, sticks together, and prevents gases from flowing through the hole. Problem solved.
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National Socialist Korea
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Posts: 1144
Founded: Sep 24, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby National Socialist Korea » Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:00 am

Subhuman scums.

No offense to any Brits - especially Blak; but in the next month, a lot of fictional Brits are gonna have their entrails piling up to overtake the Everest as the highest mountain in the world, their blood to replace the Pacific.

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Singaporean Transhumans
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Posts: 5748
Founded: Dec 31, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Singaporean Transhumans » Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:38 am

National Socialist Korea wrote:Subhuman scums.

No offense to any Brits - especially Blak; but in the next month, a lot of fictional Brits are gonna have their entrails piling up to overtake the Everest as the highest mountain in the world, their blood to replace the Pacific.

DO IT

Seriously though you should focus on pissing off Floyd fans instead giga
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National Socialist Korea
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1144
Founded: Sep 24, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby National Socialist Korea » Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:15 am

Singaporean Transhumans wrote:
National Socialist Korea wrote:Subhuman scums.

No offense to any Brits - especially Blak; but in the next month, a lot of fictional Brits are gonna have their entrails piling up to overtake the Everest as the highest mountain in the world, their blood to replace the Pacific.

DO IT

Seriously though you should focus on pissing off Floyd fans instead giga

I don't know enough about them to piss their fans off tho :d

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Chzeng
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 192
Founded: Feb 16, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Chzeng » Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:28 am

National Socialist Korea wrote:
Singaporean Transhumans wrote:DO IT

Seriously though you should focus on pissing off Floyd fans instead giga

I don't know enough about them to piss their fans off tho :d

Just say floyd sucks and then you're best troll 2016
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Blakullar
Senator
 
Posts: 4507
Founded: Sep 07, 2012
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Blakullar » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:31 am

National Socialist Korea wrote:Subhuman scums.

No offense to any Brits - especially Blak; but in the next month, a lot of fictional Brits are gonna have their entrails piling up to overtake the Everest as the highest mountain in the world, their blood to replace the Pacific.

Meh. It's rather difficult to offend me with that kinda thing.

Besides, you act as though I have any real emotional attachment to my countrymen, but let's not go down that route.
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Vixia Prime
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Founded: Feb 02, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Vixia Prime » Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:51 am

Small Spaceships: Overrated or Underrated
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Singaporean Transhumans
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Postby Singaporean Transhumans » Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:58 am

Vixia Prime wrote:Small Spaceships: Overrated or Underrated

overunderoverrated
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Gigaverse
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Postby Gigaverse » Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:27 am

Blakullar wrote:
National Socialist Korea wrote:Subhuman scums.

No offense to any Brits - especially Blak; but in the next month, a lot of fictional Brits are gonna have their entrails piling up to overtake the Everest as the highest mountain in the world, their blood to replace the Pacific.

Meh. It's rather difficult to offend me with that kinda thing.

Besides, you act as though I have any real emotional attachment to my countrymen, but let's not go down that route.

That's even better, since I get the chance for a new trophy.
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Vixia Prime
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Postby Vixia Prime » Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:18 am

Singaporean Transhumans wrote:
Vixia Prime wrote:Small Spaceships: Overrated or Underrated

overunderoverrated

So?......
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Blakullar
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Postby Blakullar » Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:39 am

Vixia Prime wrote:Small Spaceships: Overrated or Underrated

As far as speed and agility go, smaller is usually superior. You especially want smaller for lighter-armoured units like fightercraft, simply because smaller is harder to hit.
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Vixia Prime
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Postby Vixia Prime » Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:16 pm

Blakullar wrote:
Vixia Prime wrote:Small Spaceships: Overrated or Underrated

As far as speed and agility go, smaller is usually superior. You especially want smaller for lighter-armoured units like fightercraft, simply because smaller is harder to hit.

And they can be armed with small bit deadly weapons too.
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Vistora
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Postby Vistora » Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:37 pm

Excidium Planetis wrote:
Vistora wrote:Hard to kill? Perhaps, but given their size and lack of speed, not very difficult to disable. Taking out their propulsion and weapons systems would turn them into very expensive, very useless balloons, which shouldn't be difficult given how slow they are.

What if they use a magnetic tether as a propulsion system? Seems a bit unfeasible, but it could allow internal propulsion. Additionally, such a craft could do a suicide run by expelling helium for propulsion. That would likely not provide the thrust necessary to overcome drag, however.


Like an electrodynamic tether? I don't see how that would work.

Fragmenting explosives would absolutely shred the gasbags--see below for my comments on autosealing--and ground the aircraft very quickly, as not even a multitude of aerostat units could provide the redundancy to combat explosive shrapnel.

What if each individual gasbag is covered in armor (some kind of Kevlar-like material, perhaps?), so as to minimize the risk of the gasbags being penetrated?


Well then, all of that heavy armor to prevent damage from modern (and future) weapon systems would likely add at least a fair amount of weight if not a lot, and incur significant costs in the process. Modern para-aramids are only so strong, and are unlikely to protect against the explosive shrapnel of an anti-vehicle missile unless extremely thick. Carbon nanotubes may be another option, but the sheer expense would make them impractical. It still wouldn't be absolutely indestructible, and once such a beast is eventually brought down (sustained fire on something so large and slow shouldn't be too difficult) you've suddenly lost yourself no small amount of money.

And as far as lifting capacity goes, no. The heaviest payloads I've managed to find for a proposed hybrid airship was 150 tons for a very largely unrealized flying saucer balloon (one that, I might add, included none of the numerous weight-adding features that would be expected of an armed military craft), as well as the similarly fanciful, unrealized, and stupidly massive Walrus HULA. This is in comparison to the modern C5 Galaxy's 125 ton load, an airplane that can move a hell of a lot faster and carry its cargo within its hold, rather than on a massive tether. An airship's lifting capacity only increases as a function of its aerostat unit volume, again affecting size and speed. Most proposed designs, however, barely exceed 50 tons.

Still a hell of a lot more than most HTA craft. Also, Hybrid Airships can get part of their lift from wings and thrust, unlikely most airships, so aerostat volume is not the only factor.


Not a hell of a lot more. Maybe a little more, and just for undeveloped designs. Not to mention that, in order for the aerostat portion to be a contributing factor, it has to be very large.

Naval warships are not comparable in this regard, because what they lack in speed and operation range they make up in carrying about 50 times the payload weight of any airship in long-range cruise missiles.

I'd bet you can build 50 times the hybrid airships for the cost of one naval warship. They are mostly helium and aluminium, anyways.


Not once you start outfitting it for military service; weapons, propulsion, control systems, the helium itself, armor and everything else will incur significant costs. Again, any armor adequate enough to make the hybrid airship a viable weapons platform would probably rack up some significant figures. Whatever the case, airborne vehicles simply don't have the same survivability as sea-based platforms.

And in many ways, it was the sacrificing of operative agility for sheer armament that led to the heavy warship's downfall in the first place. A military hybrid airship would suffer the same issues of relative immobility while carry much less firepower. In order for hitching a gasbag to an airplane to be of any use, such a aerostat unit would need to be very large and therefore an encumbrance.

We aren't just hitching a gas bag to an airplane, we are building a rigid-hull craft that flies under its own power, but utilizes internal gasbags to dramatically decrease the lift necessary to keep it flying.


Hyperbole m8. Also, as I stated previously, in order for the aerostat portion to make any significant difference it would have to be of a very large volume. Helium has a lifting capacity of approximately one gram per liter of helium. To lift just ten tonnes would require 10000 cubic meters of helium, which is a bloody lot.

Indeed, the only military hybrid airship I've managed to dig up thus far that actually reached testing stages was a dinky little reconnaissance craft, and it couldn't even perform that function very well.

Give it a hundred years.


Alright then, give HTAs a hundred years, then see my Ouranos for reference.

Now, I'll concede that you may conceivably be able to utilize fuckhuge hybrid airships as effective long-range transport craft, but not as weapons platforms. There's just no need to fit that much weaponry on a single massive vehicle.

Intimidation. Primitives love it when massive gun platforms appear in the sky and rain death on them.


See your previous argument with Devourer.

Regarding your comment on autosealing materials in my infantry suits, I do believe you've confused the function of my bioprez layer. The bioprez layer doesn't re-seal the suit, it just automatically fills the space surrounding a rip in the suit with medical foam.

Wouldn't that foam prevent air from inside the suit from escaping? A similar idea of foam that expands to fill a rip could be used in the airship


The foam would have to be both rigid and adequately adhesive, which my Bioprez foam is not.

Unless you're packing some hardcore inorganic-regeneration nanowankery, those holes aren't repairing themselves.

It isn't nanowankery. You take some some sticky impermeable substance, compress it between two layers of stuff. Something rips a hole, the compressed substance expands to fill the hole, sticks together, and prevents gases from flowing through the hole. Problem solved.


Alright, so here's the issue you'll be facing; in the case of a bullet hole, the opening is of a fairly small area relative to the diameter. When you begin to scale up from a bullet hole in a bodysuit to rocket shrapnel in the gasbag of an airship, the area of the holes caused by shrapnel (the space the foam needs to fill) increases with the square of the circumference of the hole* (the space the foam can come out of). Similar to the square-cube rule, this geometric relation makes scaling up a very difficult procedure. Furthermore, the foam's structural properties become more and more demanding the further they have to expand.

*kind of. It's in the square of the radius times pi, but the radius and the circumference have a linear relationship conveniently defined by the ratio 2πr. Ac = C2/4π

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New Frenco Empire
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Postby New Frenco Empire » Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:15 pm

Study, study, study. Work, work, work.

Literally my life right now. I regret spending all my pre-job free time on Payday 2. :(
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Gigaverse
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Postby Gigaverse » Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:16 pm

New Frenco Empire wrote:Study, study, study. Work, work, work.

Literally my life right now. I regret spending all my pre-job free time on Payday 2. :(

Mine is Study times 6. :p

But anyway, I can see why there's no new post on Red Planet for the last month. :lol2:
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New Frenco Empire
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Postby New Frenco Empire » Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:16 am

Gigaverse wrote:
New Frenco Empire wrote:Study, study, study. Work, work, work.

Literally my life right now. I regret spending all my pre-job free time on Payday 2. :(

Mine is Study times 6. :p

I mean, at least non-stop weeks of Payday has made me look at my busyness (particularly take home tests and rushes at work) like they're police assaults. It helps (kinda).

But anyway, I can see why there's no new post on Red Planet for the last month. :lol2:

Yeah, I'll see what I can do sometime during the week. Amazingly enough, that's where most of my free time is.
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Blakullar
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Postby Blakullar » Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:06 am

Vistora and Excidium wrote:*massively compressed argument about viability of hybrid airships*

Weight problems created by weapon systems and ammunition can largely be bypassed by the use of directed-energy weapons (plasma cannons, for instance) - the power required for these can be provided through a nuclear reactor, which you will find on almost every modern big ship. Nuclear power can also bypass fuel requirements for propulsion.

This isn't to say that terrestrial vessels are inherently inferior to the Aerofleet - Mekhrus does use seacraft, though they are radically different in both type and purpose. MAF seaborne doctrine largely revolves around extremely-rapid response fire support using ground-effect vehicles (i.e. ekranoplanes).

New Frenco Empire wrote:
Gigaverse wrote:Mine is Study times 6. :p

I mean, at least non-stop weeks of Payday has made me look at my busyness (particularly take home tests and rushes at work) like they're police assaults. It helps (kinda).

But anyway, I can see why there's no new post on Red Planet for the last month. :lol2:

Yeah, I'll see what I can do sometime during the week. Amazingly enough, that's where most of my free time is.

You're back, hooray! :lol:

Speaking of Red Planet, get ready to face Trotskaya's latest henchman, leveraged from Mecharussia's absolute worst to deal with a particular ghoul who's been giving her men a hard time.
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Gigaverse
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Postby Gigaverse » Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:37 am

New Frenco Empire wrote:during the week

Wait, so... you're especially busy during the weekend? :blink:
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Vistora
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Postby Vistora » Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:42 am

Blakullar wrote:
Vistora and Excidium wrote:*massively compressed argument about viability of hybrid airships*

Weight problems created by weapon systems and ammunition can largely be bypassed by the use of directed-energy weapons (plasma cannons, for instance) - the power required for these can be provided through a nuclear reactor, which you will find on almost every modern big ship. Nuclear power can also bypass fuel requirements for propulsion.


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