Razor's Edge Cooperative [PMT/SignUps/OOC]

[Vistora]

My gripe was literally just with you saying FT over and over. Not kidding, that was it.

To be fair, PMT wasn't even a category of NS tech for years.

And even now, it is very niche. There are essentially no PMT-only storefronts on GE&T (most tend to be either MT/PMT or PMT/FT), there was no dedicated PMT category for old NS Civilization Index, and this is the first, as far as I know, PMT-only organization on NS.

That, and, just as PMT nations can use MT weapons, they can use FT weapons too, right? Why can't a PMT nation like Blak have FT plasma weapons?

Well, that depends on one's definition of FT weapons. Unless it's obviously beyond PMT scope, like hard light or dark matter weaponry, it really depends. Handheld weapons don't have a huge effect on narrative scope by themselves, unless the tech they utilize would entail a wider narrative scope in as of itself.

And yes, the lack of PMT appreciation on NS is precisely why I took the initiative in setting this group up. If I could set even the most minor of precedents, that would be fantastic.

[Excidium Planetis]

To be fair, PMT wasn't even a category of NS tech for years.

And even now, it is very niche. There are essentially no PMT-only storefronts on GE&T (most tend to be either MT/PMT or PMT/FT), there was no dedicated PMT category for old NS Civilization Index, and this is the first, as far as I know, PMT-only organization on NS.

That, and, just as PMT nations can use MT weapons, they can use FT weapons too, right? Why can't a PMT nation like Blak have FT plasma weapons?

Well, that depends on one's definition of FT weapons. Unless it's obviously beyond PMT scope, like hard light or dark matter weaponry, it really depends.

But then the obvious question:

What counts as 'obviously beyond PMT scope'? What makes dark matter and hard light fall into that category (especially since at least one of those actually exists, and has been created with modern technology, though not with any practical applications)?

[Vistora]

Well, that depends on one's definition of FT weapons. Unless it's obviously beyond PMT scope, like hard light or dark matter weaponry, it really depends.

But then the obvious question:

What counts as 'obviously beyond PMT scope'? What makes dark matter and hard light fall into that category (especially since at least one of those actually exists, and has been created with modern technology, though not with any practical applications)?

Until Ashkera and I get that tech scale project up and running, it's more qualitative for now, but it depends simply on how well within the scope of known science it rests. Dark matter is problematic for obvious reasons, while you seem to have extrapolated those findings about hard light by orders of magnitude. Returning to the point you made so long ago, when those researchers stated the possibility of "simulating different materials" with the low-energy photons, I am almost certain they were referring to the construction of individual photonic molecules within highly controlled environments... not building them into shards and shooting them from a cannon. Big difference.

[Blakullar]

Why can't a PMT nation like Blak have FT plasma weapons?

We do - they are just very rarely used and exclusive for special forces usage.

[Excidium Planetis]

But then the obvious question:

What counts as 'obviously beyond PMT scope'? What makes dark matter and hard light fall into that category (especially since at least one of those actually exists, and has been created with modern technology, though not with any practical applications)?

Until Ashkera and I get that tech scale project up and running, it's more qualitative for now, but it depends simply on how well within the scope of known science it rests.

As pointed out by me, handheld plasma weaponry is far outside the scope of known science.

Dark matter is problematic for obvious reasons, while you seem to have extrapolated those findings about hard light by orders of magnitude. Returning to the point you made so long ago, when those researchers stated the possibility of "simulating different materials" with the low-energy photons, I am almost certain they were referring to the construction of individual photonic molecules within highly controlled environments... not building them into shards and shooting them from a cannon. Big difference.

I haven't extrapolated those findings at all. I simply stated hard light exists (sort of).

And at any rate, Blak seems to have extrapolated known plasma technology by orders of magnitude.

[Singaporean Transhumans]

wasnt plasma in itself a bad idea

[Vistora]

Until Ashkera and I get that tech scale project up and running, it's more qualitative for now, but it depends simply on how well within the scope of known science it rests.

As pointed out by me, handheld plasma weaponry is far outside the scope of known science.

Dark matter is problematic for obvious reasons, while you seem to have extrapolated those findings about hard light by orders of magnitude. Returning to the point you made so long ago, when those researchers stated the possibility of "simulating different materials" with the low-energy photons, I am almost certain they were referring to the construction of individual photonic molecules within highly controlled environments... not building them into shards and shooting them from a cannon. Big difference.

I haven't extrapolated those findings at all. I simply stated hard light exists (sort of).

And at any rate, Blak seems to have extrapolated known plasma technology by orders of magnitude.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTYgobxrFsI

[Vistora]

Also, an article on it, stating specifically how the plasma generates a self-containing magnetic field.

[The United Remnants of America]

Ayyyylmao.

[Vistora]

Ayyyylmao.

Awesome

[The United Remnants of America]

Ayyyylmao.

Awesome

What?

[Vistora]

Awesome

What?

Your post. Glad you got around to it.

[Singaporean Transhumans]

So when seeing the URA's small flag on the post template of RWW I temporarily confused it for Bedemslavia's and was like 'oh shit what did they do'.

Then I calmed my shit when I saw the eagle and not a red star. Not like glorious stronk balkans can be rekt by stupid american scum anyway

[Vistora]

So when seeing the URA's small flag on the post template of RWW I temporarily confused it for Bedemslavia's and was like 'oh shit what did they do'.

Then I calmed my shit when I saw the eagle and not a red star. Not like glorious stronk balkans can be rekt by stupid american scum anyway

You should have Debeljak contribute at least a little. Like maybe a sentence or two where he briefly states where he wants to head.

[Vistora]

Not like glorious stronk balkans can be rekt by stupid american scum anyway

Not like there's historical precedent or anything...

[HYDRA-Russian Empire]

Right. So today this happened:
My SSD (on which I keep my OS) failed to write its core dump and wiped everything on it. So basically my 1337 tri-Titan X PC doesn't work because of this. It is being repaired, but I have to access NS from my phone, so I will not be able to make any contribution to the Winter Winds thread until my SSD is fixed.
Apologies.

[Vistora]

Right. So today this happened:
My SSD (on which I keep my OS) failed to write its core dump and wiped everything on it. So basically my 1337 tri-Titan X PC doesn't work because of this. It is being repaired, but I have to access NS from my phone, so I will not be able to make any contribution to the Winter Winds thread until my SSD is fixed.
Apologies.

No worries. Petr isn't slated to appear until after the original group departs, perhas the next IC day.

[Post War America]

To be fair, PMT wasn't even a category of NS tech for years.

And even now, it is very niche. There are essentially no PMT-only storefronts on GE&T (most tend to be either MT/PMT or PMT/FT), there was no dedicated PMT category for old NS Civilization Index, and this is the first, as far as I know, PMT-only organization on NS.

That, and, just as PMT nations can use MT weapons, they can use FT weapons too, right? Why can't a PMT nation like Blak have FT plasma weapons?

To be fair, PMT wasn't a category because there wasn't such an emphasis on "realism" as there was back in the olden (Jolt/Pre-Jolt) days. The further subdivision came with the increased emphasis on "realistic" technology. Basically, until fairly recently what is Low/Early PMT was folded into the "NS MT" scope, and what is High/Late PMT was folded into FT scope. Even fairly recently the divide simply more clearly delineated the two types instead of really creating a niche it made the differences more obvious (people interested in "realism" became more and more insistent on their technology ceilings, and those who wanted "cool tech" simply did what they were doing).

More recently there have been PMT players (I have been PMT since 2010 as a known example), but because there weren't enough of us or PMT RPs, and as a result tried to fit in to one of the big categories (MT/FT), or gave up on RPing entirely. I did try and form an RP group sometime ago (2013 or 2014 or something like that), but it did fall flat on its face.

As for storefronts the reasons for their lack are multitudinous. The first is lack of demand due to the community being very small, as you can see a very broad net only got a few people. People want their e-businesses to do well, appealing to a very small demographic is not a way to succeed. Secondly, PMT stuff doesn't appeal to MT or FT demographics. It doesn't appeal to MT demos because it isn't "realistic" enough, and it doesn't appeal to FT demographics because PMT stuff generally is useless/weak in most FT RPs, ergo you won't see cross tech purchases of PMT stuff whereas PMT nations can purchase from both potentially. Finally, there aren't a whole lot of PMT designers, because let's face it its hard to design things, especially anything "worthy" of being bought for a fake nation, pulling a very limited group from an already limited group leads to a tiny possible developing pool. /rant

As for weapon allowances, I do believe that would be up the RP and the stuff in particular. MT weapons should generally be allowable (after all it is tech that would generally already have been in development prior to the events of the RP potentially for decades), FT is a little more hazy. If it is harder style science fiction style (Human/Narn tech in Babylon 5 or BSG/Caprica as relatively recent examples), then it could be allowable at a certain level of PMT play (High/Late PMT) under some circumstances, but more advanced FT, or less advanced PMT makes it a far more discretionary thing.

[Vistora]

To be fair, PMT wasn't even a category of NS tech for years.

And even now, it is very niche. There are essentially no PMT-only storefronts on GE&T (most tend to be either MT/PMT or PMT/FT), there was no dedicated PMT category for old NS Civilization Index, and this is the first, as far as I know, PMT-only organization on NS.

That, and, just as PMT nations can use MT weapons, they can use FT weapons too, right? Why can't a PMT nation like Blak have FT plasma weapons?

To be fair, PMT wasn't a category because there wasn't such an emphasis on "realism" as there was back in the olden (Jolt/Pre-Jolt) days. The further subdivision came with the increased emphasis on "realistic" technology. Basically, until fairly recently what is Low/Early PMT was folded into the "NS MT" scope, and what is High/Late PMT was folded into FT scope. Even fairly recently the divide simply more clearly delineated the two types instead of really creating a niche it made the differences more obvious (people interested in "realism" became more and more insistent on their technology ceilings, and those who wanted "cool tech" simply did what they were doing).

More recently there have been PMT players (I have been PMT since 2010 as a known example), but because there weren't enough of us or PMT RPs, and as a result tried to fit in to one of the big categories (MT/FT), or gave up on RPing entirely. I did try and form an RP group sometime ago (2013 or 2014 or something like that), but it did fall flat on its face.

As for storefronts the reasons for their lack are multitudinous. The first is lack of demand due to the community being very small, as you can see a very broad net only got a few people. People want their e-businesses to do well, appealing to a very small demographic is not a way to succeed. Secondly, PMT stuff doesn't appeal to MT or FT demographics. It doesn't appeal to MT demos because it isn't "realistic" enough, and it doesn't appeal to FT demographics because PMT stuff generally is useless/weak in most FT RPs, ergo you won't see cross tech purchases of PMT stuff whereas PMT nations can purchase from both potentially. Finally, there aren't a whole lot of PMT designers, because let's face it its hard to design things, especially anything "worthy" of being bought for a fake nation, pulling a very limited group from an already limited group leads to a tiny possible developing pool. /rant

As for weapon allowances, I do believe that would be up the RP and the stuff in particular. MT weapons should generally be allowable (after all it is tech that would generally already have been in development prior to the events of the RP potentially for decades), FT is a little more hazy. If it is harder style science fiction style (Human/Narn tech in Babylon 5 or BSG/Caprica as relatively recent examples), then it could be allowable at a certain level of PMT play (High/Late PMT) under some circumstances, but more advanced FT, or less advanced PMT makes it a far more discretionary thing.

Well said. My hope with this group is that, by providing a coherent community for PMT nations interested in RP or just general association, not only will it attract PMTers out of the woodwork, but also perhaps broaden its appeal and convince others to join out of interest. If the REC ever does come even close to accomplishing this on a notable scale, I don't expect it to be soon, but somebody had to do something at some point, or else PMT would simply remain in stasis, caught in limbo between its elder kin.

That being said, I am absolutely open to all suggestions for improving this group's structure itself, with the goal of broadening its appeal without weakening its core purpose as a hub for PMT paramount.

[Empire of Donner land]

To be fair, PMT wasn't a category because there wasn't such an emphasis on "realism" as there was back in the olden (Jolt/Pre-Jolt) days. The further subdivision came with the increased emphasis on "realistic" technology. Basically, until fairly recently what is Low/Early PMT was folded into the "NS MT" scope, and what is High/Late PMT was folded into FT scope. Even fairly recently the divide simply more clearly delineated the two types instead of really creating a niche it made the differences more obvious (people interested in "realism" became more and more insistent on their technology ceilings, and those who wanted "cool tech" simply did what they were doing).

More recently there have been PMT players (I have been PMT since 2010 as a known example), but because there weren't enough of us or PMT RPs, and as a result tried to fit in to one of the big categories (MT/FT), or gave up on RPing entirely. I did try and form an RP group sometime ago (2013 or 2014 or something like that), but it did fall flat on its face.

As for storefronts the reasons for their lack are multitudinous. The first is lack of demand due to the community being very small, as you can see a very broad net only got a few people. People want their e-businesses to do well, appealing to a very small demographic is not a way to succeed. Secondly, PMT stuff doesn't appeal to MT or FT demographics. It doesn't appeal to MT demos because it isn't "realistic" enough, and it doesn't appeal to FT demographics because PMT stuff generally is useless/weak in most FT RPs, ergo you won't see cross tech purchases of PMT stuff whereas PMT nations can purchase from both potentially. Finally, there aren't a whole lot of PMT designers, because let's face it its hard to design things, especially anything "worthy" of being bought for a fake nation, pulling a very limited group from an already limited group leads to a tiny possible developing pool. /rant

As for weapon allowances, I do believe that would be up the RP and the stuff in particular. MT weapons should generally be allowable (after all it is tech that would generally already have been in development prior to the events of the RP potentially for decades), FT is a little more hazy. If it is harder style science fiction style (Human/Narn tech in Babylon 5 or BSG/Caprica as relatively recent examples), then it could be allowable at a certain level of PMT play (High/Late PMT) under some circumstances, but more advanced FT, or less advanced PMT makes it a far more discretionary thing.

Well said. My hope with this group is that, by providing a coherent community for PMT nations interested in RP or just general association, not only will it attract PMTers out of the woodwork, but also perhaps broaden its appeal and convince others to join out of interest. If the REC ever does come even close to accomplishing this on a notable scale, I don't expect it to be soon, but somebody had to do something at some point, or else PMT would simply remain in stasis, caught in limbo between its elder kin.

That being said, I am absolutely open to all suggestions for improving this group's structure itself, with the goal of broadening its appeal without weakening its core purpose as a hub for PMT paramount.

Perhaps make a R.E.C Economic Group some time? Encourage and broaden PMT Trading? Just a suggestion. But for now we should just make ourselves known and the like.

[Ashkera]

I'm not sure on the purpose of storefronts, exactly.

• You can't buy a higher-tech item because that breaks your tech balance and won't be allowed in RP.
• There's no point in buying lower-tech items or same-tech items, because you can produce them yourself.
• The big, combined MT pool doesn't really make sense to begin with, and if you're not in that pool, you can't buy multiversally as an MT nation.

Aside from the rest of my region not doing a multiversal style of RP, I also tend to avoid multiversal MT International Incidents interactions for various reasons, including that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense and is chock full of OP countries. Buying from one of those OP countries allows you to take advantage of that nation's relative lack of realism, as well as break the limits of finite natural resources.

Edit: multiversal also divorces a nation from history and many of the pressures produced by resource/land/political constraints and the tradeoff those require. There's a reason I keep the main Ashkera isolated to a single world, and have made the multiversal Ashkeras their own separate things consisting of every fun "time shadow duplicate" I can think of.

[Vistora]

Well said. My hope with this group is that, by providing a coherent community for PMT nations interested in RP or just general association, not only will it attract PMTers out of the woodwork, but also perhaps broaden its appeal and convince others to join out of interest. If the REC ever does come even close to accomplishing this on a notable scale, I don't expect it to be soon, but somebody had to do something at some point, or else PMT would simply remain in stasis, caught in limbo between its elder kin.

That being said, I am absolutely open to all suggestions for improving this group's structure itself, with the goal of broadening its appeal without weakening its core purpose as a hub for PMT paramount.

Perhaps make a R.E.C Economic Group some time? Encourage and broaden PMT Trading? Just a suggestion. But for now we should just make ourselves known and the like.

Yeah, that would be a good idea, at least to stick on the shelf for future interest. We can look into it once our member base widens, and for the meantime, I'll stick it under the "Ongoing Projects" list.

I'm not sure on the purpose of storefronts, exactly.

• You can't buy a higher-tech item because that breaks your tech balance and won't be allowed in RP.
• There's no point in buying lower-tech items or same-tech items, because you can produce them yourself.
• The big, combined MT pool doesn't really make sense to begin with, and if you're not in that pool, you can't buy multiversally as an MT nation.

Aside from the rest of my region not doing a multiversal style of RP, I also tend to avoid multiversal MT International Incidents interactions for various reasons, including that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense and is chock full of OP countries. Buying from one of those OP countries allows you to take advantage of that nation's relative lack of realism, as well as break the limits of finite natural resources.

Honestly, I've never seen it having much more than a minor RP appeal, though I can imagine some of the hardcore MT roleplayers have an entire system of economics worked out, given that they have fully fleshed-out military inventories to keep track of. On that level of detail they probably account for production limitations as well, and thus it would make sense to purchase as well as produce. For FT nations, however, I haven't a clue, given how tech level, production capacity, inventory, and economic resources all vary wildly from FT nation to FT nation, even when they are described in detail versus the quagmire of vagaries one comes to expect when sifting through an FT nation's description.

Also, I'm pretty sure most MT nations avoid truly multiversal interactions via the whole International Waters protocol.

[New Frenco Empire]

I'm not sure on the purpose of storefronts, exactly.

• You can't buy a higher-tech item because that breaks your tech balance and won't be allowed in RP.
• There's no point in buying lower-tech items or same-tech items, because you can produce them yourself.
• The big, combined MT pool doesn't really make sense to begin with, and if you're not in that pool, you can't buy multiversally as an MT nation.

Aside from the rest of my region not doing a multiversal style of RP, I also tend to avoid multiversal MT International Incidents interactions for various reasons, including that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense and is chock full of OP countries. Buying from one of those OP countries allows you to take advantage of that nation's relative lack of realism, as well as break the limits of finite natural resources.

Edit: multiversal also divorces a nation from history and many of the pressures produced by resource/land/political constraints and the tradeoff those require. There's a reason I keep the main Ashkera isolated to a single world, and have made the multiversal Ashkeras their own separate things consisting of every fun "time shadow duplicate" I can think of.

I tend to avoid military storefronts. I did buy from Lyras Arms once just because a few of the ships on there look cool, different enough to be considered "futuristic" and practical and I wanted the pictures for my factbook.

Some storefronts are a bit more unique and open to different sorts of roleplay , though. Not to toot my own horn, but I think I nailed it by opening up a storefront dedicated to hiring out professional Frenkish courtesans to foreign VIPs. I've been meaning to tidy up and reopen that thing for the longest time...

[Empire of Donner land]

I try to add some realism to my things, but in the end it requires some suspension of disbelief for my cool shit* that I spent hours to think up and reading through Wikipedia on subjects I shouldn't have to learn until I go to College or the Air Force. But at the same time I try not to make it rediculous (see: Project Dolos) and work with others on how I could do something. In the end, there's always that person that goes "Not possible, go in the corner for trying to be creative."


*May or may not be actually cool shit.

[Vistora]

I try to add some realism to my things, but in the end it requires some suspension of disbelief for my cool shit* that I spent hours to think up and reading through Wikipedia on subjects I shouldn't have to learn until I go to College or the Air Force. But at the same time I try not to make it rediculous (see: Project Dolos) and work with others on how I could do something. In the end, there's always that person that goes "Not possible, go in the corner for trying to be creative."


*May or may not be actually cool shit.

Same here. Though I've made a bit of a name for myself for my attention to detail and commitment to realism as far as mid/high PMT goes, there's no doubt that a decent amount of extrapolation exists where my technology is concerned; of course, such is an unavoidable requisite when using a futuristic setting. The only way to 100% guarantee realism is by using MT tech, and making a world 135 years in the future yet being identical to today is quite unrealistic in as of itself.

This is also why I try not to chastise other people on technological realism unless I am doing so in a jocular manner or their tech happens to be outrageous, anachronistic, and unintentionally unrealistic all at once. I don't think Aterria had audacious wankery in mind when he made that silly railgun rifle of his, hence my critique of it (and that was after asking him). Similarly, that is the reason I, the supposed xXg0dofr33lizmXx, continually and adamantly stress how technological realism and development are not the most important metrics when judging a nation's viability for being PMT.