To Change a Nation. (MT - OOC - Planning/Signup/Brainstorm)

[Vedrenheim]

So, lately I have been in the process of planning to change lil' old Isolationist Vedrenheim into a massive empire. Mostly due to OOC boredom and an overall desire to get in with the bigger, badder roleplayers on this site, (Stokmolvi, Nick, etc.) but also due to the fact that I really don't want Vedrenheim to remain the same, as that is hardly ever true in real life. Nations and political systems collapse, rebuild themselves, and then collapse again, whether that is via war or subtler means is irrelevant to that idea, but it is also the reason why I have made this thread.

Essentially, this is going to be a thread for the discussion of the end of 'Isolationist Vedrenheim' and the beginning of 'Imperialist Vedrenheim'. Once the proper 'end' for 'Isolationist Vedrenheim' has been decided, I will be offering RP positions to those of you who want to RP the selected end for 'Isolationist Vedrenheim'. Indeed, I'll probably offer you the same RP positions in the future when Vedrenheim is 'Imperialist', provided that the character in the position is still alive.

First off, here are some ideas I have that I'd like to put forward for the discussion of the end of 'Isolationist Vedrenheim',

-Establishment of a Totalitarian State, which is easy, considering Vedrenheim is already a Stratocracy. But it is also a peaceful Stratocracy that is slightly democratic in its own, special, ways. The establishment would be done via a violent coup by a military leader that has a grudge against the Supreme Commander (Överbefälhavare), who is basically the leader of my country. The attack can also be instated by the Supreme Commander himself, either way, this should probably be done via secret meetings and the like, where the dissenters attempt to grab general after general, officer after officer, until they have enough of the military under their command to stage a successful coup de grace.

I was also thinking that one of the ways to add some flavor to that would be to bring up the whole Right vs. Left, Commie vs. Blackshirt (Fascist) thing. And whoever won that fight would get to have their political philosophy as the official political philosophy of 'Imperialist Vedrenheim'. Note that at current, Vedrenheim's official political philosophy is Centrist, but due to the recent elections, the Centrist party has been outweighed by both the Leftist Armsticer Party, and the Rightist Ultranationalist Alliance Party (UAP), therefore, the ground is quite ripe for a good old wing on wing fight.

-Another possibility that occurred to me is that since Vedrenheim is 99% Asatru/Germanic Pagan, and the surrounding countries of Vedrenheim (all made-up and NPCed by me) are all different religions, we could have a 'Holy Crusade' of some sort, where the high-tech Vedrenheim goes off to commit a massive genocide of the surrounding 'heathens' and convert their lands to the true path of Germanic Paganism/Asatru. Note that this is highly unlikely, but it is also just a thought I'm throwing out there in case someone else wants to help me expand with it.

-Terrorists, terrorists, everywhere! This is another scenario I've thought out for Vedrenheim's expansionist future, and it also is the one that seems the most vague.

The scenario would play out as all of the nations surrounding Vedrenheim are overthrown by terrorist groups, which then all stage attacks on Vedrenheim, provoking it into occupying and conquering the overthrown countries. There would then be a long and bloody counter-terrorist war, (like the ones in Iraq/Afghanistan/Sri Lanka/Israel) the climax of which would result in either the death of the terrorist leaders, or the pulling back of Vedrenheim to protect its own borders, and the eventual nuclear devastation of the region as Vedrenheim attempts to contain the terrorist threat and stop the terrorists from converging upon its own country.

Also, if the terrorist leaders are killed in that situation, then Vedrenheim would not focus on giving the countries back their land, and instead, continue to occupy it, bringing up political security as the decoy reason, with the real money being behind the fact that Vedrenheim's using the other countries' resources to fund its own infrastructure, leading Vedrenheim to become a massive economical empire created under the pretenses of peace.

So yeah, those are my ideas. Like I said, you can put forward your own and we can discuss them, or we can discuss the above. Either way works fine with me.

Also, as a bit of a reading and lore resource for y'all, here's our factbook,
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=28852

[Neo Prutenia]

Funy, we had the same idea for a state - a stratocracy. Well, my is actually different, closer to a meritocracy, but it appears as a stratocracy. Nevermind. I would be interested to join. Due to the similarities between our states we could become allies, or bitter enemies. Your choice, as it's your RP. But I'd like to know first - do you intend to make a character RP or a country RP? I'd participate in any of the two - just want to know beforehand.

Anyway - I mean no offense, but you are a very small country - by NS standards of course. Even I'm still in the small category, but that shouldn't stop us. I thought perhaps that we could make powerblocks - similar to a cold war scenario, think of it as a USA and Soviet Union showdown. I assume with imperialistic tendencies you meant to dominate other countries economically and culturally a la contemporary USA, not a 19th century Britain who tryes to hold on to her precious India. So, even with puppets, you wouldn't really be a challenge to the 'Big" players here. Well, I'd love to hear more details before I commit myself fully. What kind of Empire do you wish to create?

How do you intend to do it? How do you intend to finnance it? How will your people react? If I interpret your curent situation and government correctly, Vedrenheim is quite similar then to our real world Myanmar. Or perhaps you had a late roman empire on your mind when you created it. Now, into what sort of country do you intend to turn yours? Will it ressemble a Soviet Union, A Nazi Germany, a Communist China, a British Commonwealth or something else entirely?

Oh, and I'd prefer to Rp, at least in the beginning, the transition from Vedrenheims current society to a new one. I had in mind something along the lines of espionage and journalistics. Perhaps my country could infiltrate spies into yours to check up whats going on exactly - or we could both spy the hell out of each other on neutral grounds - a puppet perhaps - to see who will dominate another country or countries in the future. Trade in information, secrets, bank accounts, even personnel - perhaps some of mine or some of your scientist/artists/intelligence/industrialists/anybody turns over to the other side because of money, political leanings, hate towards his homecountry, for personal gain or for fear of prosecution.

Well, what do you think?

[Iotor]

I feel like the stupid kid here with all the 'tocracy' words getting thrown around. If its of any interest (Meh) I think I'm the odd one out, what with the totalitarian constitutional democracy and what have you. I'm probably not the most experienced at role playing, but this sounds really interesting, and I'd like to give it a try (If Im no good, you could always just boot me out).

Although I'm not sure how the two nations would be tied, Iotor could be strongly opposed to the revolution initially (Iotor converted from an Imperial state to a Federation at the turn of the 20th century. Ever since its been strongly opposed to the idea of kings and queens). But seeing as its a pretty opportunistic nation, as soon as natural resources(I'm told Vedrenheim has abundant natural resources...that's right, I read the factbook) started freely flowing, they wouldn't mind turning a blind eye to it.

If you two were going to make power blocks, then I could serve as an element between those two. Maybe I could be trying to prevent war because there are Import/Export deals between the nations (Or for, y'know, peace...Or whatever), or I could be inciting it...For some terribly devious reason. Or I could even act as neutral ground between the two, and this is where the espionage and spy tactics may occur. Though, preferably, I wouldn't be a puppet state...Since, well yeah.
If it should turn into a war, then maybe there could be political clashes in my nation (Acting as neutral soil), and even enter the war should need be (On which side, who knows). Terrorists and nuclear bombs? Sounds like an appropriate sit-cheeation for an emergency international joint task force. And should the terrorists lose, then Iotor journalism and political debates could arise over the controversial matter of Vedrenheim's occupation of 'INSERT COUNTRY A' (Not to mention some hawt black-ops-on-mercenary action).

Sounds really awesome (and thought out too)

[Atom Anarchists]

I'd be willing to RP a nation overrun by terrorists and their sympathizers, a la modern Iran. Maybe you don't even need that: you could have a nominally uninvolved government that denies everything but actively or passively aids the terrorist group.

[Nateistan]

Well as commander of N.A.T.E. I'm willing to rp a anti-terrorist strike force. Maybe one that isn't successful, and maybe it causes N.A.T.E. To disband?

[Vedrenheim]

Wow! I didn't expect to get so many interested folks. Good to see you're all interested!

Neo Prutenia...

Funy, we had the same idea for a state - a stratocracy. Well, my is actually different, closer to a meritocracy, but it appears as a stratocracy. Nevermind. I would be interested to join. Due to the similarities between our states we could become allies, or bitter enemies. Your choice, as it's your RP. But I'd like to know first - do you intend to make a character RP or a country RP? I'd participate in any of the two - just want to know beforehand.

I intend to make it mostly a character RP, but rest assured, the setting will not just take place in Vedrenheim.

Also, before I make the decision of whether or not to befriend your country ICly, I'd like to know a little more about your country OOCly -maybe you have a factbook I could check out? Or just an introductory paragraph to your nation's ideas, geography, and people would be fine.

Anyway - I mean no offense, but you are a very small country - by NS standards of course. Even I'm still in the small category, but that shouldn't stop us. I thought perhaps that we could make powerblocks - similar to a cold war scenario, think of it as a USA and Soviet Union showdown. I assume with imperialistic tendencies you meant to dominate other countries economically and culturally a la contemporary USA, not a 19th century Britain who tryes to hold on to her precious India. So, even with puppets, you wouldn't really be a challenge to the 'Big" players here. Well, I'd love to hear more details before I commit myself fully. What kind of Empire do you wish to create?

Well I believe I sort of put out three options for myself in this one. The first is similar to what the Germans had during WWI, where they would have their subordinate countries speak their language and adapt to their customs. The second was similar to what the Christians/Muslims had in eachother's lands for so long, which was basically a 'Theocratic Empire' so to speak. This would probably go along best with the whole 'Pagan Crusade' I had outlined in one of my ideas in the OP. The third would definitely be what you were talking about up there, and that is an Imperialistic economic pseudo-empire that the U.S.A had/has.

How do you intend to do it? How do you intend to finnance it? How will your people react? If I interpret your curent situation and government correctly, Vedrenheim is quite similar then to our real world Myanmar. Or perhaps you had a late roman empire on your mind when you created it. Now, into what sort of country do you intend to turn yours? Will it ressemble a Soviet Union, A Nazi Germany, a Communist China, a British Commonwealth or something else entirely?

I think it's too early to say who exactly I want my empire to be like, but I suppose that if its going to be like anything, I would want it to be like Kaiserist Germany during WWI in the sense that it would have this set of traditions and beliefs and national unity, but also be without the complete state control and radical racial/political prejudice that Nazi Germany/Communist China had.

Oh, and I'd prefer to Rp, at least in the beginning, the transition from Vedrenheims current society to a new one. I had in mind something along the lines of espionage and journalistics. Perhaps my country could infiltrate spies into yours to check up whats going on exactly - or we could both spy the hell out of each other on neutral grounds - a puppet perhaps - to see who will dominate another country or countries in the future. Trade in information, secrets, bank accounts, even personnel - perhaps some of mine or some of your scientist/artists/intelligence/industrialists/anybody turns over to the other side because of money, political leanings, hate towards his homecountry, for personal gain or for fear of prosecution.

I think the espionage thing on neutral grounds sounds like a grand idea to get ourselves introduced. Then we'll see where we can go from there.

Well, what do you think?

I think we can make this work, but we have to remember that we should probably elaborate more on Vedrenheim before we can make any decisions as to whether or not my country is going to be allying with your country or spying on it. But either way, this is going to be interesting.

Iotor...

Although I'm not sure how the two nations would be tied, Iotor could be strongly opposed to the revolution initially (Iotor converted from an Imperial state to a Federation at the turn of the 20th century. Ever since its been strongly opposed to the idea of kings and queens). But seeing as its a pretty opportunistic nation, as soon as natural resources(I'm told Vedrenheim has abundant natural resources...that's right, I read the factbook) started freely flowing, they wouldn't mind turning a blind eye to it.

Ah, I see, so you would be fine if the regime then started funneling resources to your nation? This can be easily arranged, but I'm afraid it's going to be on more on grounds of a covert agreement as opposed to appeasement.

If you two were going to make power blocks, then I could serve as an element between those two. Maybe I could be trying to prevent war because there are Import/Export deals between the nations (Or for, y'know, peace...Or whatever), or I could be inciting it...For some terribly devious reason. Or I could even act as neutral ground between the two, and this is where the espionage and spy tactics may occur. Though, preferably, I wouldn't be a puppet state...Since, well yeah.
If it should turn into a war, then maybe there could be political clashes in my nation (Acting as neutral soil), and even enter the war should need be (On which side, who knows). Terrorists and nuclear bombs? Sounds like an appropriate sit-cheeation for an emergency international joint task force. And should the terrorists lose, then Iotor journalism and political debates could arise over the controversial matter of Vedrenheim's occupation of 'INSERT COUNTRY A' (Not to mention some hawt black-ops-on-mercenary action).

I think we'll need more elaboration before I can say what I need you as, but it sounds like you're volunteering for whatever we need, which is good, because I can already see a few scenarios you'd be key in but like I said, we should elaborate more on what's causing Vedrenheim to capsize into Imperialism.

Sounds really awesome (and thought out too)

Thank you!

Atom Anarchists..

I'd be willing to RP a nation overrun by terrorists and their sympathizers, a la modern Iran. Maybe you don't even need that: you could have a nominally uninvolved government that denies everything but actively or passively aids the terrorist group.

Sounds good, I'll keep you in mind, since I can surely involve a terrorist group in this, even if it isn't the "Terrorists, terrorists, everywhere!" option.

Nateistan..

Well as commander of N.A.T.E. I'm willing to rp a anti-terrorist strike force. Maybe one that isn't successful, and maybe it causes N.A.T.E. To disband?

An anti-terrorist strike force would be welcomed highly since there's a 99.99% there will be terrorists, third option or not. But how we incorporate you into our RP is another matter. Nevertheless, N.A.T.E seems to be an organization that simply wants to kill terrorists regardless of the kinds of governments supporting it, so I think I can guarantee you a spot in this RP as well.

[Neo Prutenia]

I intend to make it mostly a character RP, but rest assured, the setting will not just take place in Vedrenheim.

Also, before I make the decision of whether or not to befriend your country ICly, I'd like to know a little more about your country OOCly -maybe you have a factbook I could check out? Or just an introductory paragraph to your nation's ideas, geography, and people would be fine.

I think it's too early to say who exactly I want my empire to be like, but I suppose that if its going to be like anything, I would want it to be like Kaiserist Germany during WWI in the sense that it would have this set of traditions and beliefs and national unity, but also be without the complete state control and radical racial/political prejudice that Nazi Germany/Communist China had.

I am still working on my factbook - and due to being a terrible perfectionist I don't intend to post it, until it is completed. Which could take some time - I'm a very busy student after all, classes and lectures everyday. As for the info you need - you could have easily guessed by my flag - my country is an alternate history German Empire.

For geography - just add modern Austria to the land mass of the RL German Empire. It's just way, way more densely populated.

For ideas and people - It's quite similar to the German Empire, with a few key distinctions - it has strong elements of the Swiss and Dutch people, and it was a pure protestant state. In my "timeline" the Kaiser and Pope went separated ways and basically to whole Holy Roman Empire embraced Protestantism. Today, a significant portion of the population has already, or is slowly, converting to Orthodox Christianity. Politically - we have constant fights between the die hard socialists and die hard conservatives.

I think the best way for now to learn about my people is to browse through my post. The give a glimpse about how Prut society works - but in short imagine that the military protects the civil and political rights of the citizens, as well as democratic ideals, while the politicians fight over economic issue. The military makes a point in separating politics from the government.

Well, I'm getting the impression that you are aiming to create a country very similar to my own - if not even the same - minus the imperialistic tendencies. Neo Prutenia would probably react favorably to such a state - at least until you start commiting crimes against humanity. We'd for sure observe the development of your state, perhaps even meddle here and there. I think the best way to represent our countries would be if we imagine my country as the "German Empire" and yours as "Sweden" - you'd be trying to subjugate by any means possible a 'Norway" and "Finland" analogue while I'd be trying to snatch " Denmark" from under your nose, but be unable to truely commit myself to fully protect Norway/Finland from your attempts, at least in the beginning, beause - let's say because of other powerfull enemies or domestic issues.

Would something like that work for you?

[Atom Anarchists]

Atom Anarchists..

I'd be willing to RP a nation overrun by terrorists and their sympathizers, a la modern Iran. Maybe you don't even need that: you could have a nominally uninvolved government that denies everything but actively or passively aids the terrorist group.

Sounds good, I'll keep you in mind, since I can surely involve a terrorist group in this, even if it isn't the "Terrorists, terrorists, everywhere!" option.

Good, I'll cook up some kind of ideology to match the plot. It doesn't matter whether or not the terrorists actually come from AA, because no one there would feel responsible.

[La Habana]

Military Coups are also a great stagnation breaker....but their glamour soon wears off once the whole populace accepts the change. If you look at the 'History of La Habana' section of our factbook it may give you some ideas for the 'political evolution' in your nation.

[Vedrenheim]

Well, I'm getting the impression that you are aiming to create a country very similar to my own - if not even the same - minus the imperialistic tendencies. Neo Prutenia would probably react favorably to such a state - at least until you start commiting crimes against humanity. We'd for sure observe the development of your state, perhaps even meddle here and there. I think the best way to represent our countries would be if we imagine my country as the "German Empire" and yours as "Sweden" - you'd be trying to subjugate by any means possible a 'Norway" and "Finland" analogue while I'd be trying to snatch " Denmark" from under your nose, but be unable to truely commit myself to fully protect Norway/Finland from your attempts, at least in the beginning, beause - let's say because of other powerfull enemies or domestic issues.

Would something like that work for you?

Aye, I would find that acceptable. I'll give you a map of the whole 'region' Vedrenheim is in, and we can figure out who takes what, what countries we can double-team, and what countries will be neutral grounds for our espionage exchanges. Sound good to you?

Good, I'll cook up some kind of ideology to match the plot. It doesn't matter whether or not the terrorists actually come from AA, because no one there would feel responsible.

Aye. I'll send you a map and a background on each of the countries, maybe you can pick out one or two and designate some terrorist groups in them, then maybe meet up in the neutral countries, and then maybe me, Prut, and your terrorists can have some three-way awesomesauce RP.

Military Coups are also a great stagnation breaker....but their glamour soon wears off once the whole populace accepts the change. If you look at the 'History of La Habana' section of our factbook it may give you some ideas for the 'political evolution' in your nation.

Will do!

[Neo Prutenia]

Aye, I would find that acceptable. I'll give you a map of the whole 'region' Vedrenheim is in, and we can figure out who takes what, what countries we can double-team, and what countries will be neutral grounds for our espionage exchanges. Sound good to you?

Yes, that should work. Then I reserve a nice spot in the south. If possible, we should share a common sea, something like the Nordsea or the Baltic. Also, because we somhow always miss each other, what timezone are you in? I'm Central European /thats +1.

[Vedrenheim]

Aye, I would find that acceptable. I'll give you a map of the whole 'region' Vedrenheim is in, and we can figure out who takes what, what countries we can double-team, and what countries will be neutral grounds for our espionage exchanges. Sound good to you?

Yes, that should work. Then I reserve a nice spot in the south. If possible, we should share a common sea, something like the Nordsea or the Baltic. Also, because we somhow always miss each other, what timezone are you in? I'm Central European /thats +1.

There's actually a place on my map called "The Northern Sea", it's to the direct west of my nation and a few other nations, making it a key route for an amphibous based invasion.

I'm on Pacific time, so -8.

[Neo Prutenia]

There's actually a place on my map called "The Northern Sea", it's to the direct west of my nation and a few other nations, making it a key route for an amphibous based invasion.

I'm on Pacific time, so -8.

Excellent. I saw it at the map you provided. It will do. But the 9h time difference might complicate things - say, do you have a period you are often, if not always, online? I can easily calculate it into my timezone, just need to know it beforehand.

[Vedrenheim]

There's actually a place on my map called "The Northern Sea", it's to the direct west of my nation and a few other nations, making it a key route for an amphibous based invasion.

I'm on Pacific time, so -8.

Excellent. I saw it at the map you provided. It will do. But the 9h time difference might complicate things - say, do you have a period you are often, if not always, online? I can easily calculate it into my timezone, just need to know it beforehand.

3-6PM usually during weekdays, and during weekends, 6PM-9PM. All of this is on Pacific time, mind you.

[Vedrenheim]

There's actually a place on my map called "The Northern Sea", it's to the direct west of my nation and a few other nations, making it a key route for an amphibous based invasion.

I'm on Pacific time, so -8.

Excellent. I saw it at the map you provided. It will do. But the 9h time difference might complicate things - say, do you have a period you are often, if not always, online? I can easily calculate it into my timezone, just need to know it beforehand.

3-6PM usually during weekdays, and during weekends, 6PM-9PM. All of this is on Pacific time, mind you.

[Neo Prutenia]

Will work out a schedule. Now, back to the topic. Do you have some firm ideas now how you wish this RP to develop and grow? Just in raw lines - what will, could, must ands needs to happen, and what we'll avoid to do?

Espionage is one thing, what about covert and open warfare, or a direct conflict between us? If so, would you prefer for it to be a true conflict or just some sort of intervention/embargo/sanction? Would you like to lose - and then we start a process of democratizing you/ or a resistance / liberation war - or would you like more something along the lines of Vietnam, where my forces are superior, but still unable to hold the land because of various reason?

And about the espionage thing in particular, how will that look like? I would prefer something along the lines of John le Carré and Graham Greene's stories and novels, not a Ian Flemming's James Bond. To keep the agents realistic, gritty and incompetent - so that each success should be a combination of skill, luck and even more luck, making them more precious, like in real life. And it's more fun that way.

Have you any thoughts or ideas you wish to add? What about you other peoples? Who'd prefer to be in my sphere of influence, and who'd like to be closer to Vedrenheim?

[Nateistan]

I suppose I would be on the side of the regular government, viewin these radicals as terrorists and having N.A.T.E. Commandos come in to try and stop the insubordiation

[Iotor]

Have you any thoughts or ideas you wish to add? What about you other peoples? Who'd prefer to be in my sphere of influence, and who'd like to be closer to Vedrenheim?

I'm not sure who I'd be closer to, because Iotor has a very tropical based climate (Similar to Australia, but without the deserts). Its based in the southern hemisphere, so yeah, Im not sure how it would work. Iotor might not be very close to either of you in terms of latitude (North and South...I, think).

Ah, I see, so you would be fine if the regime then started funneling resources to your nation? This can be easily arranged, but I'm afraid it's going to be on more on grounds of a covert agreement as opposed to appeasement.

Well, it wouldn't be like a shotgun wedding kinda thing. But if mutual benefits were going both ways via a bit'o'tradin, Iotor would find it unnecessary to pursue political or otherwise action. They'd be happy to be public not-enemies.

[Vedrenheim]

Will work out a schedule. Now, back to the topic. Do you have some firm ideas now how you wish this RP to develop and grow? Just in raw lines - what will, could, must ands needs to happen, and what we'll avoid to do?

I believe that Option number 1 is going to be the primary motivation for Vedrenheim's sudden imperialistic tendacy. And with the leftist Armsticer party winning the recent elections, there looks to be a Communist Revolution in order. That said, the Supreme Commander is not in favor of Communism, so there is going to be a dethroning of sorts where he is killed by the revolutionaries, who are lead by a rogue General and his cohorts, and replaced by the rogue General and his cohorts as the government.

Once that rogue General takes office, there will be a period of solidification of Communist idealism in Vedrenheim, where the former 'upper class' (and by upper class, I mean whoever does not support the Communist gov't) is purged and executed, and internal affairs take a turn for Leftism as opposed to the traditional Centrist philosophy. During the solidification, spies will be dispatched to multiple countries that I have yet to name due to my current indecision in choosing which ones I exactly want spies in, and it is there that both of our spies will meet, alongside the AA's terrorists, and a three-way battle will commence for the right for a foothold in that country, so when we invade it, the invasion will go much easier.

Espionage is one thing, what about covert and open warfare, or a direct conflict between us? If so, would you prefer for it to be a true conflict or just some sort of intervention/embargo/sanction? Would you like to lose - and then we start a process of democratizing you/ or a resistance / liberation war - or would you like more something along the lines of Vietnam, where my forces are superior, but still unable to hold the land because of various reason?

Hm. Well, since we both want this to be a sphere-of-control on sphere-of-control battle, how about we first play it like the USSR and Nazi Germany did with Poland? We'll split the countries (who will play the part of Poland) half and half, and then when we have solidified control over those territories and have a psuedo-front line established between our conquered territories, one of us declares war (it could be you or me, since both of us have viable reasons to) and then all hell breaks loose. A war rages on for however long it takes, but you finally come out on top in the end. I then retreat back to my home province of Vedrenheim, and from there, we have a Winter War/Continuation War esque thing going on, where your forces are turned back every time they try and invade Vedrenheim due to its harsh climate, difficult terrain, and the homefield advantage the Vedrenheimers have.

But during that stage, there is also a resurgence by the loyalists, who kill the Communist leader and throw the Vedrenheimer war machine into chaos. But before anything more is said, the loyalists, speaking as the leaders of the Vedrenheim armed forces, surrender to you. At that stage, a post world-war 2 Germany would be an accurate representation of what Vedrenheim would be, with multiple governments (or just yours) occupying mine until it was rebuilt, and we were back on our Centrist feet again.

And about the espionage thing in particular, how will that look like? I would prefer something along the lines of John le Carré and Graham Greene's stories and novels, not a Ian Flemming's James Bond. To keep the agents realistic, gritty and incompetent - so that each success should be a combination of skill, luck and even more luck, making them more precious, like in real life. And it's more fun that way.

Oh, definately, I agree with that. A bunch of nerve-shot, sweaty spies playing a game of strategy with eachother while terrorists fill the field will no doubt provide for some awesome RP.

I'm not sure who I'd be closer to, because Iotor has a very tropical based climate (Similar to Australia, but without the deserts). Its based in the southern hemisphere, so yeah, Im not sure how it would work. Iotor might not be very close to either of you in terms of latitude (North and South...I, think).

Iotor does not neccessarily have to be close to me to actually be on my team, especially if you're across the ocean. At that point, as long as you have boats and transports, we're fine, since my nation is right next to an ocean and can recieve your reinforcements easily.

Well, it wouldn't be like a shotgun wedding kinda thing. But if mutual benefits were going both ways via a bit'o'tradin, Iotor would find it unnecessary to pursue political or otherwise action. They'd be happy to be public not-enemies.

Sure. Would Iotor's upper echelons at all be opposed to maybe sending in some Special Forces over for the purpose of protecting it's 'economic interests from terrorism'?

[Iotor]

Sure. Would Iotor's upper echelons at all be opposed to maybe sending in some Special Forces over for the purpose of protecting it's 'economic interests from terrorism'?

Well, now its a question of just what level of economic interests we're talking about here...
If its things like coal, gold, or other mineral based resources, it wouldn't be very high level military personnel.
But if it were things like oil, uranium, or masses of cheap labor, then both the military and even federal special forces would be deployed (If the situation called for it).

Actually, its two questions now. Exactly what level of tech would we be in here? 1940's? 1990's? 2020's?
Cos' that would effect a couple o'things...

[Neo Prutenia]

I believe that Option number 1 is going to be the primary motivation for Vedrenheim's sudden imperialistic tendacy. And with the leftist Armsticer party winning the recent elections, there looks to be a Communist Revolution in order. That said, the Supreme Commander is not in favor of Communism, so there is going to be a dethroning of sorts where he is killed by the revolutionaries, who are lead by a rogue General and his cohorts, and replaced by the rogue General and his cohorts as the government.

Once that rogue General takes office, there will be a period of solidification of Communist idealism in Vedrenheim, where the former 'upper class' (and by upper class, I mean whoever does not support the Communist gov't) is purged and executed, and internal affairs take a turn for Leftism as opposed to the traditional Centrist philosophy. During the solidification, spies will be dispatched to multiple countries that I have yet to name due to my current indecision in choosing which ones I exactly want spies in, and it is there that both of our spies will meet, alongside the AA's terrorists, and a three-way battle will commence for the right for a foothold in that country, so when we invade it, the invasion will go much easier.

Makes sense. This would give plenty of time for me to notice the change and try to intervene or at least find out more. Like a kind of foreplay, before we commence with rearranging borders and attitudes. But keep in mind that your government would lose much international support and recognition if it came to power in such a way. Not that I have something against it, but you should keep that in mind when you RP your population and diplomatic missions. Even during the spy phase, other agents and contacts would be biased according to their political beliefs. Some would try to change sides or even help the enemy, because they want their current illegitimate government out of power. And I know for sure, that quite a few of mine would prefer a similar revolution to happen in Neo Prutenia.

Hm. Well, since we both want this to be a sphere-of-control on sphere-of-control battle, how about we first play it like the USSR and Nazi Germany did with Poland? We'll split the countries (who will play the part of Poland) half and half, and then when we have solidified control over those territories and have a psuedo-front line established between our conquered territories, one of us declares war (it could be you or me, since both of us have viable reasons to) and then all hell breaks loose. A war rages on for however long it takes, but you finally come out on top in the end. I then retreat back to my home province of Vedrenheim, and from there, we have a Winter War/Continuation War esque thing going on, where your forces are turned back every time they try and invade Vedrenheim due to its harsh climate, difficult terrain, and the homefield advantage the Vedrenheimers have.

But during that stage, there is also a resurgence by the loyalists, who kill the Communist leader and throw the Vedrenheimer war machine into chaos. But before anything more is said, the loyalists, speaking as the leaders of the Vedrenheim armed forces, surrender to you. At that stage, a post world-war 2 Germany would be an accurate representation of what Vedrenheim would be, with multiple governments (or just yours) occupying mine until it was rebuilt, and we were back on our Centrist feet again.

Yes, that sounds good. But might I add an alternative. Instead of going for a occupied 1940this Germany, let's go for a occupied Imperial Japan analogue - instead of dismantling the entire country and government, we could just purge the current unpopular and rather dangerous regime and form, at first a provisional democratic government, and after that a real one.

That way, you could later on catch up much quicker, without so many repercussions and actually become a empire in very loose sense - economic cooperation and integration of all belligerents, with you leading them. You'd have an empire and influence, while retaining Neo Prutenia as a protector and guarantee that no revanchism or revenge war would be started. I think that was what you were aiming for in the beginning, and that would satisfy everyone. And Neo Prutenia would retain the right to forever after make patriotic movies and video games how it saved everybodies ass.

We can keep the fighting and maneuvering dynamic and fluid, even if we know the " winner" from the beginning. Well, at least how it will end. Just because I'm slightly bigger and richer doesn't mean that I will take "victory" for granted. Thats why I propese the Japan analogue - it can be a very, very hard fight, and in the end, perhaps you will just run out of supplies instead of being military defeated. As it is your RP you can make it take any form you wish. And we should avoid nukes - makes things just far too messy.

As for you Iotor, well, we could both court you - there could be a strong Prut expat community with a strong lobby trying to pull you on our side, or a strong economic interest group from Vedrenheim, who'd love you to export your mineral/natural resources at excellent prices, or vice versa. You can make the decision on your own. Perhaps even both groups are present and are competing with each other. Or you might play Italy and change sides as it suits your ambitions and survival - alays on the side of the apparently stronger.

And I thought we'd make this MT - Modern times. Vedrenheim, what did you have in mind? I'd be willing to play perhaps a Cold War era technology scenario, but the 2000s would be much more preferable. I'd like us to avoid anything PMT, as I have no experience in that and it would just lead to far too many unnecessary conflicts about what tech would be plausible and what not.

[Vedrenheim]

Well, now its a question of just what level of economic interests we're talking about here...
If its things like coal, gold, or other mineral based resources, it wouldn't be very high level military personnel.
But if it were things like oil, uranium, or masses of cheap labor, then both the military and even federal special forces would be deployed (If the situation called for it).

Actually, its two questions now. Exactly what level of tech would we be in here? 1940's? 1990's? 2020's?
Cos' that would effect a couple o'things...

Well I'm sure I could definitely put in a few Uranium deposits in the countries that both me and Prut conquer, and I could do the same thing with oil on the coastal countries, so we would have oil platforms in the Northern Sea that we would have to protect, which could lead to some interesting naval battles between us and Prut.

As for cheap labor, I can't say whether or not we'd want that as a nation on a large scale, but I can assure you that you can have some degree of cheap labor.

The tech level will be 2020s, I'm thinking. Though its yours and Prut's call.

[Iotor]

Heh heh...You two are gonna court me...You make it sound so romantic.
I like that idea. Iotor does often find itself torn between one or the other, so I can see one hell of a dilemma for the president and Iotor's High Command network. And what with the 'Neo-Prutenia - Iotor Support Lobby' (Which I have just named now) and Vedrenheim's bountiful resources, I think it will be quite a nice little debate for the government right there. However, it should be noted that Iotor wants profit and resources, not land, so it wouldn't be involved with any conflicts that purely involved taking a nation. It doesn't care whose sending the moola, it just wants moola.

2020's sounds good, because its an age where economics is more important then ideals for most nations. Tom Clancy's EndWar story is within the 2020 area, so we could use that as a reference for military tech levels, since the EndWar official website has a load of technical information, so we could base it off that. However, if that would make it too difficult, then 2010's or even 2000's are fine.

EndWar Official Website-Units
http://endwargame.uk.ubi.com/units.php

And now that I finally read the whole thing (It was REALLY long), with the Vedrenheim look-and-be-alike of Post WW2 Germany/Japan, how 'bout Iotor send in forces as peacekeepers and aid workers after the main war, so as to maintain the steady flow of resources and profit...And maybe even try and take some uranium mines as newly declared Iotor provinces...
Also, we might want to begin drafting up a map for this thing. To show where important things are, like nations, front lines, oil rigs, mines, capitals, forts...etc, etc...

[Vedrenheim]

Heh heh...You two are gonna court me...You make it sound so romantic.
I like that idea. Iotor does often find itself torn between one or the other, so I can see one hell of a dilemma for the president and Iotor's High Command network. And what with the 'Neo-Prutenia - Iotor Support Lobby' (Which I have just named now) and Vedrenheim's bountiful resources, I think it will be quite a nice little debate for the government right there. However, it should be noted that Iotor wants profit and resources, not land, so it wouldn't be involved with any conflicts that purely involved taking a nation. It doesn't care whose sending the moola, it just wants moola.

2020's sounds good, because its an age where economics is more important then ideals for most nations. Tom Clancy's EndWar story is within the 2020 area, so we could use that as a reference for military tech levels, since the EndWar official website has a load of technical information, so we could base it off that. However, if that would make it too difficult, then 2010's or even 2000's are fine.

EndWar Official Website-Units
http://endwargame.uk.ubi.com/units.php

And now that I finally read the whole thing (It was REALLY long), with the Vedrenheim look-and-be-alike of Post WW2 Germany/Japan, how 'bout Iotor send in forces as peacekeepers and aid workers after the main war, so as to maintain the steady flow of resources and profit...And maybe even try and take some uranium mines as newly declared Iotor provinces...
Also, we might want to begin drafting up a map for this thing. To show where important things are, like nations, front lines, oil rigs, mines, capitals, forts...etc, etc...

Sure. We can use Endwar as a basis for our technology. I might even go so far as to say that we might consider basing our factions off of their own (in the sense that Vedrenheim might be like the Ruskies because of their low tech and numbers, but high training and experience from the numerous wars Vedrenheim has fought). But that's just a wild guess.

I'm all for Iotor playing off both of our sides, so long as it is done discreetly. Maybe you can do it in the way of companies acting as storefronts that funnel the resources to your home nation?

Also, I don't imagine anyone would look too kindly to Iotor blatantly having provinces just for the purpose of Uranium/resource mining. So why not have your storefronts have claim to the land with said resources? That way everyone's happy.

I'll begin to draw more detailed map of my region in the next few days. If you want, you each can do your own map and we'll just meld it together for the RP map.

Yes, that sounds good. But might I add an alternative. Instead of going for a occupied 1940this Germany, let's go for a occupied Imperial Japan analogue - instead of dismantling the entire country and government, we could just purge the current unpopular and rather dangerous regime and form, at first a provisional democratic government, and after that a real one.

That way, you could later on catch up much quicker, without so many repercussions and actually become a empire in very loose sense - economic cooperation and integration of all belligerents, with you leading them. You'd have an empire and influence, while retaining Neo Prutenia as a protector and guarantee that no revanchism or revenge war would be started. I think that was what you were aiming for in the beginning, and that would satisfy everyone. And Neo Prutenia would retain the right to forever after make patriotic movies and video games how it saved everybodies ass.

Sounds fine to me, Neo Americania,

We can keep the fighting and maneuvering dynamic and fluid, even if we know the " winner" from the beginning. Well, at least how it will end. Just because I'm slightly bigger and richer doesn't mean that I will take "victory" for granted. Thats why I propese the Japan analogue - it can be a very, very hard fight, and in the end, perhaps you will just run out of supplies instead of being military defeated. As it is your RP you can make it take any form you wish. And we should avoid nukes - makes things just far too messy.

Maybe we can keep the conflict open, then? Or better yet, how about we just let the war play out itself? That way the whole opening sequences of espionage will be WAY more important, as well as Iotor's support.

And I thought we'd make this MT - Modern times. Vedrenheim, what did you have in mind? I'd be willing to play perhaps a Cold War era technology scenario, but the 2000s would be much more preferable. I'd like us to avoid anything PMT, as I have no experience in that and it would just lead to far too many unnecessary conflicts about what tech would be plausible and what not.

Definitely not PMT or Cold War. Iotor and I seem pretty open to 2020s, what about you?

And you Atom Anarchists? Or anyone else for that matter?

[Neo Prutenia]

Well, who said that we'll stop to spy on each other after the war starts? Nervous man with Laptops and a handgun will just be replaced with nervous man with a government issue computer, a whole team of people and satellites. And spy plane. I won't consider it a war if at least one AWACS Radar plane isn't above Vedrenheim.

Now keeping the war open ended might bring the danger of wrecking the RP - I am for a natural flow, but we should know the 'victor' from the beginning. BUT, and this is a very big but, how it will end, or even better, how the victory might look like, is another matter. It is very liberating to know your fate beforehand. Imagine it like this - if you know that you'd die tomorrow, wouldn't you make your last day as fun and exiciting as possible? Thats the spirit we should aim for. Perhaps, if Vedrenheim is to 'win', it make take the guise of an armistice.

The scenario would be that I manage to liberate the other states, beat his armies ability to project power beyond it's borders, but fail to ever make a invasion on his homeland. He would then have a possibilty to sign said armistice and would have survived - winning in a sort of way. Or if I'm to win, then it could be after several succesive Iwo Jima's, Okinawa's and similar high casualties battles. Or perhaps, one of us runs out of resources to effectivly threaten the other in the consteted territories, therefore being forced to let the other party have it's way - for now. That is the free form and dynamic I propose. Vedrenheim, you just have to decide if you, or me, are to labeled Winner, in the end - how you, or me, will claim that title is another matter. One best left for the RP to decide.

As for the 2020s, setting, I already stated that I'd wish to avoid it. Especially anything by Tom Clancy - never forget that the man is a writer and author, not a military strategist and/or engineer. It may seem genuine and fun to reference a techno-thriller for our armies, but keep in mind that such a thing is very difficult to predict and analize. The economic, social and psychological factors, combined with change of military doctrine and technological innovations are near impossible to predict over a 10 year period.

In the end, the only thing we can say for sure is that we'll have slightly better tanks, planes and ships, and some infantry weapons. Or we can just use contemporary weapon systems in the first place and avoid a row concerning if the weapons seem plausible. Is there really a need to try to use weapons we are not familiar with and will probably never see, instead of those we know and are able to fact check? I belive not. More so, if you use the weapon systems known to us, not only do we avoid cheating, munchkining and minimaxing our forces, but in the end we'll have even more fun trying to develop better strategies, tactics and plans to outwit our foe.

Gadgets are fun in games, but when writing, such deus ex machina's should be avoided as they just make the story cheaper and less fulfilling. And of course, we can still develop some new weapons during the war - and again, this can be something as innocent as a jet engine that uses 20% less fuel for the same performance, for example. It's not very powerful, it wont change the entire course of the war - but imagine if Vedrenland could aquire this engine before me in the end stages of the war, when my armies march over his borders. Such a jet would enable him to hold on to his skies much longer, as he would have more resources, or at least wouldn't burn his fuel supplies as quickly as without such engines. This would then enable him to prolongue the war and perhaps avoid an occupation and surrender and instead just have to sign an armistice and pay war reparations - but remaining a free country.

And we would spy the sh*t out of each other to try to sabotage, capture or delay such weapon developments. So I advise you, let's use 2000s tech, our contemporary tech, which we can reference with wikipedia and a few military sites, and instead focus on our wit and creativity and try to make a good RP. You with me?