Noctur Discussion Thread [OOC][NOCTUR ONLY]

[Nui-ta]

Noctur Discussion Thread

Admissions to Noctur are currently CLOSED.

This thread is intended to be a forum for discussion about the region of Noctur. Please do not post in this thread if you do not belong to the region, unless you are Tuthina or Ossoria (who are basically former Nocturians that still are somewhat involved).

Also, discussion is meant to be OOC. Anything Noctur related is allowed here, whether it is current events, reconciling canon, petitioning for some new motion...if it's OOC and concerns Noctur, it probably belongs here. The thread is also meant to serve as a record for IRC chats and issues of importance, for those who cannot make it towards actual meetings.

[Nui-ta]

So Segland and I were talking today on the IRC. It was just us, so I'm putting these proposed changes to canon up for people to see.

Why is the canon changing?
Segland isn't the broken, militarily incompetent nation of Old Noctur. Segland has now been a competent fascist regime for the past 50 years (1960s on Conpatria's timeline). As a result, the nation remains in one piece, meaning no civil war.

So what happened instead?
Well, much of Noctur, particularly Nui-ta and Radiatia had significant aftermaths from the war. Radiatia was heavily involved in the invasion of Segland, and Nui-ta got bombed out in the midst of the chaos. These are things that still have to be worked around, to prevent these (and perhaps other) nations from having to change in the present time.

So here are the -proposed- changes.

1. Segland, Hadin, and other fascist/communist bloc nations increase their militarism and generally cause tensions that piss off the rest of Noctur.
2. Hadin and Nui-ta have tensions over domestic policy. Segland takes Hadin's side in the matter and makes threats (as usual) to Nui-ta and other nations. Nui-ta ignores them.
3. Segland bombs Haroush AND Foroga (as opposed to just Haroush). Nui-ta is too crippled by the disaster to immediately do anything to retaliate against Segland. Radiatia's intervention prevents Segland from doing WORSE to Nui-ta with long distance missiles. Hadin and Segland attempt a Bay-Of-Pigs style invasion on Nui-ta's waters, which Hadin screws up, costing Hadin and Segland the invasion attempt. Segland deems it "not worth the time" to attempt a further invasion of Nui-ta.
4. Segland DOES point nukes at Nui-ta though, with the overall threat that if Radiatia or any other nation retaliates, the nukes get fired. Despite the opinions of the international community, Nui-ta (begrudgingly) asks its allies not to piss Segland off any further, lest there be nuclear holocaust. Segland agrees to take no further action against Nui-ta, if no further action is taken against Segland (or Hadin).
5. Nui-ta's government changes and eventual strengthening of the KDS remain justified by the attacks. Nui-tan militarism subsides for a few years, as the country devotes its resources to the aftermath of the attack.

An afterthought from the IRC: Since Radiatia's been needing a war, and Hadin/Nui-ta are still bickering, and Segland seems to like Hadin a lot (and maybe just want to humiliate Nui-ta more), maybe this is how a new war could start...

These are -proposed- changes. Anyone (especially Rad) can discuss if this is feasible or not.

[Radiatia]

I'm not entirely comfortable with this revision, although I certainly agree that having Segland a competent fascist nation is a positive thing - especially in the absence of Tuthina.

For what it's worth, I might just skip the whole war thing and have my election anyway. It's been two years in real life, and I can now think of another way to do it.

[Higgins and Brown]

Might it be worth inventing a nation that historically fulfills the position in each nation's canon that Segland did, and have Segland be the location of the new, retconnerific, Segland?

It would seem to me to be something that would suit everyone. I realise I wasn't there for the IRC discussion.

A nation located at "the neck" of the eastern continent would surely suit for all of Segland's historic meddlings?

[Nui-ta]

I'm not entirely comfortable with this revision, although I certainly agree that having Segland a competent fascist nation is a positive thing - especially in the absence of Tuthina.

Helpful for the parts that we -can- consider canon. Still need to know what the discomfort is about before anything can get fixed.

Might it be worth inventing a nation that historically fulfills the position in each nation's canon that Segland did, and have Segland be the location of the new, retconnerific, Segland?

It would seem to me to be something that would suit everyone. I realise I wasn't there for the IRC discussion.

A nation located at "the neck" of the eastern continent would surely suit for all of Segland's historic meddlings?

Would potentially work, but would require new nation creation, meaning someone has to make a puppet to fill that hole. Unless someone wants to volunteer to be the bad guy. Doesn't really work for me, since Nui-ta's the one that got bombed, Hadin's too incompetent, and Zanzes is.....well they don't exactly have missiles laying around to shoot at people, let's just say that...

Alternately: Segland gave Hadin the missiles no matter which story you follow. So what if Hadin just becomes the main perpetrator? I'd much rather retcon Hadin than Nui-ta...

Seglandic missiles hit Nui-ta from Hadin. Hadin denies involvement because they weren't Hadinian missiles, and Segland denies involvement because they weren't the ones shooting the missiles off, effectively leaving Nui-ta in a bit of a diplomatic quandry...?

My head hurts just thinking about it. I came online to de-stress before I studied today, and this seems to be harder!

[Radiatia]

I'm not entirely comfortable with this revision, although I certainly agree that having Segland a competent fascist nation is a positive thing - especially in the absence of Tuthina.

Helpful for the parts that we -can- consider canon. Still need to know what the discomfort is about before anything can get fixed.

I'm just not comfortable with people going around revising canon in general.

[Nui-ta]

Helpful for the parts that we -can- consider canon. Still need to know what the discomfort is about before anything can get fixed.

I'm just not comfortable with people going around revising canon in general.

Neither am I, but it was pretty clear from the start that canon was gonna change in the absence of certain members. Ossoria, Tuthina, Poldania, and Detectatia aren't here, and Segland is a significantly different Segland.

If its this much trouble, I could pretend the missile strikes never happened. This would potentially undo the Seglandic war altogether, as most nations were staying out of the conflict until Detectatia got threatened by missiles, and Nui-ta got pelted with them.

The only down-side is that I would effectively have to erase and re-boot the past 6 years (maybe more) or so of Nui-ta's canon. Something I don't have a lot of energy to do...

...and the possibility does exist that retcons in Nui-ta would ripple out to other places.

[Nui-ta]

If its this much trouble, I could pretend the missile strikes never happened. This would potentially undo the Seglandic war altogether, as most nations were staying out of the conflict until Detectatia got threatened by missiles, and Nui-ta got pelted with them.

The only down-side is that I would effectively have to erase and re-boot the past 6 years (maybe more) or so of Nui-ta's canon. Something I don't have a lot of energy to do...

...and the possibility does exist that retcons in Nui-ta would ripple out to other places.

Actually, since I'm more maintaining Noctur than playing, this may not be the worst idea. I was supposed to have gotten to a certain point by now but can't dedicate much attention to making news articles or stuff like that...

So unless anyone objects, maybe we'll just re-write history, with no Seglandic missiles.

[Segland]

If its this much trouble, I could pretend the missile strikes never happened. This would potentially undo the Seglandic war altogether, as most nations were staying out of the conflict until Detectatia got threatened by missiles, and Nui-ta got pelted with them.

The only down-side is that I would effectively have to erase and re-boot the past 6 years (maybe more) or so of Nui-ta's canon. Something I don't have a lot of energy to do...

...and the possibility does exist that retcons in Nui-ta would ripple out to other places.

Actually, since I'm more maintaining Noctur than playing, this may not be the worst idea. I was supposed to have gotten to a certain point by now but can't dedicate much attention to making news articles or stuff like that...

So unless anyone objects, maybe we'll just re-write history, with no Seglandic missiles.

I have no qualms with that.

[Nui-ta]

Changes in Nui-tan History --- To Accommodate the Lack of Missiles

(LET 50) - The missile attack by Segland against Haroush never happened. Although Segland and Nui-ta have strained relations, due to the "Nui-Ra" Alliance, and suspected alliances between Hadin and Segland, --- the two nations don't have enough reason to outright attack each other. Seglanid/Nui-tan relations essentially boil down from war to angry staring matches.

The political unrest in Nui-ta that resulted from the attack never happens. Although some pre-existing race and class tensions remain, the electorate swings left on social issues. This is in part because the Nui-tans, having never been fired on, don't have the reactionary social response to the war that the previous timeline had. A new generation of Nui-tans coming into adulthood, who have no memory whatsoever of political or social Apartheid, also helps maintain the left-wing shift.

The lack of destruction in Mercuria also means that ILOP forces don't have to be deployed there to keep order. The neighboring states of Yevzar and Sangaur maintain their state's police numbers. Some riots still happen in Yevzar, but between an increased presence of Yevzar's ILOP forces, and a general lack of un-rest --- these riots don't cause NEAR as much panic, devastation, or violent deaths as they did in the previous timeline.

The Foroga City Bombings never happen. The riots in western Sangaur never happen. ILOP forces remain too strong and plentiful to be overwhelmed by any violence. Nobody dies in Boshal because the thugs from the last timeline would be apprehended before they could do any damage.

(Since the Boshal riots killed Hariem, and now no longer exist, Hariem remains alive in this timeline. In case you were wondering about that weird CONFERO post...)

Furthermore, the lack of a war or national security threat means that Emperor Rowan never has to call the Code Black into effect. Parliament remains in full force. DPM Medici never defects to Hadin, and the CRP is able to maintain its image enough to pass some social reforms. They do still gain some criticism from more conservative states, and the older generation of Nui-tans, but the effect isn't as strong.

Parliament remains a bit congested, but this problem is amended later in an entirely different way. Nui-ta DOES still annex New Zanzes, but the militarism in the state isn't as strong. It's now annexed mainly to account for population growth, and for research purposes.

(LET 51) Tensions between Nui-ta and Hadin remain strained, but not to the point of a cold war. The shut-down of Hadinian immigration into Nui-ta never happens.

(LET 52) Elections in Parliament swing slightly to the right, mostly due to concerns about hits to the economy following much of Renton's progressive social reforms. Liberals want to see the progressions in social policy continue, while Conservatives cite the financial impact on the nation.

The CRP establishes a third term in office, but only after a coalition government with, of all the possible parties, Derch. Renton remains PM, Benjamin Harvers takes over as DPM.

Some political instability begins, between the socially liberal, economically ineffective CRP, and the economically effective but socially conservative Derch Party. Central Party nearly gets voted out altogether when facing the polarized Nui-tan electorate.

(LET 53) The failure to enact a national budget forces Nui-ta into a government shutdown for 3 days.

Emperor Rowan invokes a long-forgotten power of the Monarchy to command subjects to do what he says, as long as the King's Council approves of the decree. He then makes the harsh order that Parliament will not be paid until the government shutdown is over (which is immediately approved by the Council).

And another order, that leading party officials must remain in Parliament until a budget is passed. It takes some debate, but is approved by the Council on the second day, on condition that they be allowed access to other parts of the building (lavatory, food, showers), to prevent the edict from turning into cruel and unusual punishment, which Rowan agrees to.

The highlight of the night involves angry MP's fighting all night over a budget, and a tabloid catching Rowan happily carting roast turkey, salads, and coffee into the main debate hall. To this day, Renton and Harvers don't comment when the news ask them about Turkeygate.

Needless to say, by the time the third night rolls around, a budget appears out of nowhere. The Emperor is lauded for his quick (if not very unorthodox) handling of the situation. Both Renton and Harvers lose significant approval in polls.

(LET 54) The next budget is passed without so much as a hiccup. Under some pressure from dissidents who fear that Rowan may be allowed to abuse the edict power, the King's Council ratifies conditions that any future Imperial edicts should follow. Rowan cooperates willingly and even commends the Council for taking the initiative, further boosting his popularity among most of the Nui-tan populace.

Nui-ta officially adopts the LET dating system.

(LET 55) Some tension resumes when the CRP/Derch split Parliament can't come to an agreement over industrial laws. Many MPs do end up agreeing to pass such powers over to state governments, increasing the powers of the states over their own affairs. On a national level, some issues with the structure of the military and funding remain unsolved by Renton and Harvers.

The issue is rectified, not by the two party leaders, but by Elena Raashal, a more conservative member of the CRP, from Alinia, who convinces the more moderate side of the CRP to defy Renton's version of the proposal altogether, but still call some clauses of Derch Party's platform on the issue into question.

With Raashal's intervention, and some careful nurturing of a deal between the two parties, enough of a compromise is made to handle the brunt of the problem. The King's Guard is assimilated into the Elite Corps. The massive SC is split and divided into an Army, Navy, and Air Force. A branch of ILOP's intelligence division is also formed into a rudimentary secret service, akin to R-SOD.

(LET 56) With all the stigma against him, Renton is forced from party leadership. Paolo Medici becomes the de-facto leader of the CRP, until such time as upcoming elections later in the year determine the long-term political structure of the party.

Harvers announces that he will not run in the LET 56 election, citing his age. As with the CRP, a tentative second-in-command holds power until the elections determine the party's ultimate fate.

---

Less Significant, but still warrant a mention. How do the characters/other things change in any way?

• Well...a dead guy is now alive again. (Hariem).
• Since he never got hit by a missile, Crivan remains a very well-adjusted individual, who is unlikely to nuke Segland anytime soon.
• Hans Yarringsen never got a formal introduction, since "Coin" got retconned out, due to the Cold War never happening. Technically his father may also still be alive.
• Paolo and Aurana Medici remain Nui-tan subjects, instead of Hadinian defectors.
• Rowan remains Emperor. Nui-ta never becomes a Chancellorship.
• Desden Haur remains a political unknown.
• Rasim Kulkanni is a noted leader in Yevzar's state government, but is not on the national stage. Yet.
• The draft never stops for females. However, it also isn't as pervasive...or lethal, since Nui-ta isn't at war.
• Nui-tan resentment for the "Nui-Ra" alliance never starts up (although it was only just starting to boil in the previous timeline), because Nui-ta doesn't feel powerless and overly reliant on Radiatia.
• Flight 153 never disappears. It was supposed to be revealed to have been shot down by a misguided Hadinian missile, but the cold war conditions no longer exist to warrant the plane getting shot down.

[Segland]

Now that we're capable of accepting applicants with the Tribunal and all, I figure we might need an application form. As a prototype, I've prepared an adaptation of the one my former region used:

Code: Select all

[b]Nation Name (official and informal):[/b]
[b]Form of Government:[/b]
[b]Political Leader(s):[/b]
[b]GDP:[/b]
[b]GDP Per Capita:[/b]
[b]Description of Economy:[/b]
[b]Description of Culture:[/b]
[b]Climate & Topography:[/b]
[b]Brief National History:[/b]
[b]Description of Geopolitical Role:[/b]
[b]Additional National Information (optional):[/b]
[b]Roleplaying Examples (provide links or write a sample):[/b]
[b]Notes and Questions:[/b]

[Nui-ta]

Now that we're capable of accepting applicants with the Tribunal and all, I figure we might need an application form. As a prototype, I've prepared an adaptation of the one my former region used:

Code: Select all

[b]Nation Name (official and informal):[/b]
[b]Form of Government:[/b]
[b]Political Leader(s):[/b]
[b]GDP:[/b]
[b]GDP Per Capita:[/b]
[b]Description of Economy:[/b]
[b]Description of Culture:[/b]
[b]Climate & Topography:[/b]
[b]Brief National History:[/b]
[b]Description of Geopolitical Role:[/b]
[b]Additional National Information (optional):[/b]
[b]Roleplaying Examples (provide links or write a sample):[/b]
[b]Notes and Questions:[/b]

Not ready quite yet, but this does look very good for when we are.

[Segland]

Now that we're capable of accepting applicants with the Tribunal and all, I figure we might need an application form. As a prototype, I've prepared an adaptation of the one my former region used:

Code: Select all

[b]Nation Name (official and informal):[/b]
[b]Form of Government:[/b]
[b]Political Leader(s):[/b]
[b]GDP:[/b]
[b]GDP Per Capita:[/b]
[b]Description of Economy:[/b]
[b]Description of Culture:[/b]
[b]Climate & Topography:[/b]
[b]Brief National History:[/b]
[b]Description of Geopolitical Role:[/b]
[b]Additional National Information (optional):[/b]
[b]Roleplaying Examples (provide links or write a sample):[/b]
[b]Notes and Questions:[/b]

Not ready quite yet, but this does look very good for when we are.

Okay, cool.