International Freedom Coalition (OOC, APPS TEMP CLOSED)

[The Lendol Archipelago]

How can your foreign policy be containment when your military is literally 104 people?

What do you mean by "kind of" in freedom of media and freedom from unreasonable siezure?

Why are women not allowed to join the Armed Forces?

Why do you have 13 Weapons of Mass Destruction, if you only have 104 soldiers?

How did you get 5 Branches of Armed Forces but list 104 military police only?

I think they may have misinterpreted the phrase "active military personnel".

[Roskian Federation]

How can your foreign policy be containment when your military is literally 104 people?

What do you mean by "kind of" in freedom of media and freedom from unreasonable siezure?

Why are women not allowed to join the Armed Forces?

Why do you have 13 Weapons of Mass Destruction, if you only have 104 soldiers?

How did you get 5 Branches of Armed Forces but list 104 military police only?

I think they may have misinterpreted the phrase "active military personnel".

that's what the last question was implying.

[Valaran]

I don't think I'll posting on this thread for maybe a week or so - which means I'll be distanced from anything IFC. Not like me posting makes much of an impact anyhow, so I hope everyone has fun

[Roskian Federation]

I don't think I'll posting on this thread for maybe a week or so - which means I'll be distanced from anything IFC. Not like me posting makes much of an impact anyhow, so I hope everyone has fun

i can never have fun without you bb

[Valaran]

I don't think I'll posting on this thread for maybe a week or so - which means I'll be distanced from anything IFC. Not like me posting makes much of an impact anyhow, so I hope everyone has fun

i can never have fun without you bb

Sure you can

[The Lendol Archipelago]

I don't think I'll posting on this thread for maybe a week or so - which means I'll be distanced from anything IFC. Not like me posting makes much of an impact anyhow, so I hope everyone has fun

Was it something we said?

[Gigaverse]

But I expect the IFC would take issue with Feng being a vassal of an external power with no functional independent foreign policy. Taxation is a sovereign power, and therefore tribute is effectively a surrender of sovereignty.

I must chime in, for I come from an East Asian nation as well, I know how the local vassal-claiming system is supposed to work. "Taxation" is an overt simplification of the tribute system that will generate misunderstanding/mistrust; but the vassals are independent enough to actively fight wars against their masters should the latter think about invading; and who would need to invade its own sovereign territory if it's not actually already/still an independent state?

Unless, of course, Cusc has other ideas for this vassal system.

[Great Feng]

But I expect the IFC would take issue with Feng being a vassal of an external power with no functional independent foreign policy. Taxation is a sovereign power, and therefore tribute is effectively a surrender of sovereignty.

I must chime in, for I come from an East Asian nation as well, I know how the local vassal-claiming system is supposed to work. "Taxation" is an overt simplification of the tribute system that will generate misunderstanding/mistrust; but the vassals are independent enough to actively fight wars against their masters should the latter think about invading; and who would need to invade its own sovereign territory if it's not actually already/still an independent state?

Unless, of course, Cusc has other ideas for this vassal system.

^This was what I was going off of when agreeing to be a part of this system.

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

As it happens, I come from Hong Kong (there right now in the middle of a typhoon), so I see both viewpoints. (That's why I've been posting at "odd" times).

The question really hinges upon (a) how important de-facto economic freedom and (b) just how independent foreign policy is likely to be de-facto.

Since Ausitoria, even more than Britain, and also interestingly more like Asia's influence of customary law, regards things that are de-facto to be conventions and therefore de-principio (in principle) to have the power of precedent and the force of law (like constitutional conventions or common law judicial interpretation), Ausitoria is not at all satisfied with a wholly de-jure argument that is more likely to win over continental Europeans and their ilk (civil jurists).

One cannot be satisfied by even a marginal de-facto impedance on a state's sovereign economic functions, because economics is virtually the sole reason for a modern state to exist, and in Ausitoria's case the basis for all social policy.

It would be a long drawn out war and 1/5 of your forces would be a meager cost compared to what you would likely lose, and would still not guarantee a victory, though the same is true in reverse.

Rhinocera gets to the point better than I do: I am confident a stalemate or near-stalemate is likely, which is of course far more fun to RP.

I don't think I'll posting on this thread for maybe a week or so - which means I'll be distanced from anything IFC. Not like me posting makes much of an impact anyhow, so I hope everyone has fun

Oh, that's not true. If you hold an opinion different from my own, I become less sure of the relative virtue of my own, and more accepting of different styles.

[Great Feng]

As it happens, I come from Hong Kong (there right now in the middle of a typhoon), so I see both viewpoints. (That's why I've been posting at "odd" times).

The question really hinges upon (a) how important de-facto economic freedom and (b) just how independent foreign policy is likely to be de-facto.

Since Ausitoria, even more than Britain, and also interestingly more like Asia's influence of customary law, regards things that are de-facto to be conventions and therefore de-principio (in principle) to have the power of precedent and the force of law (like constitutional conventions or common law judicial interpretation), Ausitoria is not at all satisfied with a wholly de-jure argument that is more likely to win over continental Europeans and their ilk (civil jurists).

One cannot be satisfied by even a marginal de-facto impedance on a state's sovereign economic functions, because economics is virtually the sole reason for a modern state to exist, and in Ausitoria's case the basis for all social policy.

Feng keeps all independence of military, foreign, internal, and other affairs.
The only difference is I pay tribute and accept his as the head of my nation's state.
Canada does the same thing too you know, as does Australia, just without the tribute. Look it up.
So this is basically like the Imperial Chinese Tributary system mixed with the British Commonwealth that has independent nations who accept the British Monarch as the Head of State.
So why doesn't NATO say Canada isn't a "Sovereign nation"?
Siam, Korea, Vietnam, Champa, etc. payed Tribute to the Chinese Emperors yet were their own countries and dealwith separately. So this shouldn't be any different.

It would be a long drawn out war and 1/5 of your forces would be a meager cost compared to what you would likely lose, and would still not guarantee a victory, though the same is true in reverse.

Rhinocera gets to the point better than I do: I am confident a stalemate or near-stalemate is likely, which is of course far more fun to RP.

I don't think I'll posting on this thread for maybe a week or so - which means I'll be distanced from anything IFC. Not like me posting makes much of an impact anyhow, so I hope everyone has fun

Oh, that's not true. If you hold an opinion different from my own, I become less sure of the relative virtue of my own, and more accepting of different styles.

Not from what I've seen.

[Valaran]

Oh, that's not true. If you hold an opinion different from my own, I become less sure of the relative virtue of my own, and more accepting of different styles.

The comment wasn't directed at our disagreements specifically - sorry for the confusion.

[New Chilokver]

Is Deian in the IFC?

[Roskian Federation]

Is Deian in the IFC?

last i heard he was planning to become a slave to Cusc so I'm not sure.

[Great Feng]

Is Deian in the IFC?

last i heard he was planning to become a slave to Cusc so I'm not sure.

Nope.
Just paying him some tribute and basically doing what Canada does for UK.
I'm not his slave. I do whatever I want besides paying tribute.

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

Oh, that's not true. If you hold an opinion different from my own, I become less sure of the relative virtue of my own, and more accepting of different styles.

Not from what I've seen.

It doesn't work from everybody.

Feng keeps all independence of military, foreign, internal, and other affairs.
The only difference is I pay tribute and accept his as the head of my nation's state.
Canada does the same thing too you know, as does Australia, just without the tribute. Look it up.

Canada does not defer to Britain on every issue, as an understanding of even 1910s diplomacy should reveal.

Even if we accept that Feng does not kowtow to Cuscy on every single foreign policy issue, the tribute would make all the difference.

Quite beside the economic sovereignty point, if both China and Japan can claim ownership of the Senkaku islands by virtue of tribute, you are wrong to think tribute makes no substantial difference.

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

Anyway, since I see you've already put in the application, it is clear that the Council should discuss Feng's possible expulsion, and therefore, until we can have a free vote on the subject, Feng is hereby suspended.

I will be submitting the official Ausitorian opinion to the Council as soon as Ardoki lets us know what we're retconning (if anything - if there are duplicates, then we can both have our own Moriarty, and be unsure about which is which).

(Indeed, we could simply refuse to retcon anything, and assume that Ardoki has created a duplicate - and Ardoki can then assume we have created a duplicate, thereby neatly sidestepping any dispute, and avoiding the need to undo old posts).

[Great Feng]

Typical. You likely just did this because of a mixture of it being Nihon specifically and hatred for feng.
And Bluewell applied too. WTF? Double standards.
Mark my words this is becoming more like a dictatorship by the day...
The IFC now only serves to profit L&A. Having Ardoki only adds an Anti-SACTO member to the IFC and gives L&A an extra vote against people like Inyursta and Aravea.
L&A is only intervening in wars when it profits him. And he is trying to fill his government with people loyal more to him than the alliance.
Be warned IFC...
You may have your Erdogan moment soon enough.
However what article/law did you use to legally suspend me?
I think you did an unconstitutional action.
As such I am hesitant to abide by this ban as I find it unconstitutional.
Also if I remember correctly the resolution to impeach Ausitoria formally passed.

[Pillowlandia]

Typical. You likely just did this because of a mixture of it being Nihon specifically and hatred for feng.
And Bluewell applied too. WTF? Double standards.
Mark my words this is becoming more like a dictatorship by the day...
The IFC now only serves to profit L&A. Having Ardoki only adds an Anti-SACTO member to the IFC and gives L&A an extra vote against people like Inyursta and Aravea.
L&A is only intervening in wars when it profits him. And he is trying to fill his government with people loyal more to him than the alliance.
Be warned IFC...
You may have your Erdogan moment soon enough.
However what article/law did you use to legally suspend me?
I think you did an unconstitutional action.
As such I am hesitant to abide by this ban as I find it unconstitutional.
Also if I remember correctly the resolution to impeach Ausitoria formally passed.

First off, the impeachment did not pass. Secondly, Bluewell is a sovereign state which is a member of my commonwealth. Thirdly, I formally object to Fengs suspension. It is far to early to be able to claim that he is a slave

[Mizrad]

Typical. You likely just did this because of a mixture of it being Nihon specifically and hatred for feng.
And Bluewell applied too. WTF? Double standards.
Mark my words this is becoming more like a dictatorship by the day...
The IFC now only serves to profit L&A. Having Ardoki only adds an Anti-SACTO member to the IFC and gives L&A an extra vote against people like Inyursta and Aravea.
L&A is only intervening in wars when it profits him. And he is trying to fill his government with people loyal more to him than the alliance.
Be warned IFC...
You may have your Erdogan moment soon enough.
However what article/law did you use to legally suspend me?
I think you did an unconstitutional action.
As such I am hesitant to abide by this ban as I find it unconstitutional.
Also if I remember correctly the resolution to impeach Ausitoria formally passed.

What are you talking about double standards? L&A is about to back out of defending Bluewell specifically because of his application to be a vassal. While yes there is clearly some OOC hatred involved between Nihon and Ausi, they are also very different IC'ly. That would absolutely justify the reasoning behind suspending you at least in-character wise. We're figuring out things with Ardoki as we speak. We suspended you because you are going against what the IFC stands for and tend to act borderline autistic every time something happens. Ausi might not be the most liked leader of the IFC although I'm sure any of the past leaders would agree with his decision to suspend you.

EDIT: Addressed why the IC differences make the decision reasonable.
EDIT 2: Spelling

[New Chilokver]

Congratulations on editing your post from a nonchalant dismissal to a nonsensical rant.

[Mizrad]

Congratulations on editing your post from a nonchalant dismissal to a nonsensical rant.

Wouldn't call it nonsensical but I kept accidentally quoting it and screwing up the spelling lol.

[Great Feng]

Typical. You likely just did this because of a mixture of it being Nihon specifically and hatred for feng.
And Bluewell applied too. WTF? Double standards.
Mark my words this is becoming more like a dictatorship by the day...
The IFC now only serves to profit L&A. Having Ardoki only adds an Anti-SACTO member to the IFC and gives L&A an extra vote against people like Inyursta and Aravea.
L&A is only intervening in wars when it profits him. And he is trying to fill his government with people loyal more to him than the alliance.
Be warned IFC...
You may have your Erdogan moment soon enough.
However what article/law did you use to legally suspend me?
I think you did an unconstitutional action.
As such I am hesitant to abide by this ban as I find it unconstitutional.
Also if I remember correctly the resolution to impeach Ausitoria formally passed.

What are you talking about double standards? L&A is about to back out of defending Bluewell specifically because of his application to be a vassal. While yes there is clearly some OOC hatred involved between Nihon and Ausi, they are also very different IC'ly. That would absolutely justify the reasoning behind suspending you at least in-character wise. We're figuring out things with Ardoki as we speak. We suspended you because you are going against what the IFC stands for and tend to act borderline autistic every time something happens. Ausi might not be the most liked leader of the IFC although I'm sure any of the past leaders would agree with his decision to suspend you.

EDIT: Addressed why the IC differences make the decision reasonable.
EDIT 2: Spelling

Alright I was mistaken then, I admit that I was wrong.

Still I believe that he is using the "submission"(as he may call it) as an excuse to boot me.
Now, Tribute shouldn't really matter. If I still desire to work for the alliance and spread freedom then great.
And Ausitoria has repeatedly let national interests get in the way of doing good for the alliance as a whole.
And has forwarded personal interests despite there being large opposition to his actions.

Lastly, I don't want to start an argument over your perception of me(Which is admittedly a fair view) but I do take issue with you saying I "act borderline autistic".
I am autistic and feel offended on a personal level due to this.

[Pillowlandia]

I would like to point out the irony of L&A backing out of Bluewell because the nation made moves to ensure its safety whilst also professing to be stanch supporter of freedom all the while Ralk the slaver is at the door.

Furthermore, the whole vessal thing is technically not IC yet since the actual IC thread isn't up yet, but that's just semantics. I also still disagree with the suspension even with that IC argument. But then again, L&A isn't know to be the most subtle diplomat on NS.

Edit: T R I G G E R ED eh?

[Mizrad]

What are you talking about double standards? L&A is about to back out of defending Bluewell specifically because of his application to be a vassal. While yes there is clearly some OOC hatred involved between Nihon and Ausi, they are also very different IC'ly. That would absolutely justify the reasoning behind suspending you at least in-character wise. We're figuring out things with Ardoki as we speak. We suspended you because you are going against what the IFC stands for and tend to act borderline autistic every time something happens. Ausi might not be the most liked leader of the IFC although I'm sure any of the past leaders would agree with his decision to suspend you.

EDIT: Addressed why the IC differences make the decision reasonable.
EDIT 2: Spelling

Alright I was mistaken then, I admit that I was wrong.

Still I believe that he is using the "submission"(as he may call it) as an excuse to boot me.
Now, Tribute shouldn't really matter. If I still desire to work for the alliance and spread freedom then great.
And Ausitoria has repeatedly let national interests get in the way of doing good for the alliance as a whole.
And has forwarded personal interests despite there being large opposition to his actions.

Lastly, I don't want to start an argument over your perception of me(Which is admittedly a fair view) but I do take issue with you saying I "act borderline autistic".
I am autistic and feel offended on a personal level due to this.

First off I wass unaware that you were actually autistic, I'll apologize for that. Definitely would've been a lot more understanding with how I worded that if I had known.

With everything else I'm not going to tell you that it isn't happening, because it is, but there are better ways to solve it than everybody arguing about it. We can all talk this out at a normal pace and get things done right? With that being said I appreciate you admitting where you're wrong and I hope you are accepting of my apology. Now finally I think we should all find a way to move on from bickering to making actual progress. Does anybody have suggestions?

[Great Feng]

Alright I was mistaken then, I admit that I was wrong.

Still I believe that he is using the "submission"(as he may call it) as an excuse to boot me.
Now, Tribute shouldn't really matter. If I still desire to work for the alliance and spread freedom then great.
And Ausitoria has repeatedly let national interests get in the way of doing good for the alliance as a whole.
And has forwarded personal interests despite there being large opposition to his actions.

Lastly, I don't want to start an argument over your perception of me(Which is admittedly a fair view) but I do take issue with you saying I "act borderline autistic".
I am autistic and feel offended on a personal level due to this.

First off I wass unaware that you were actually autistic, I'll apologize for that. Definitely would've been a lot more understanding with how I worded that if I had known.

With everything else I'm not going to tell you that it isn't happening, because it is, but there are better ways to solve it than everybody arguing about it. We can all talk this out at a normal pace and get things done right? With that being said I appreciate you admitting where you're wrong and I hope you are accepting of my apology. Now finally I think we should all find a way to move on from bickering to making actual progress. Does anybody have suggestions?

Apology accepted.
Now if only more Politicians would admit they were wrong.