International Freedom Coalition (OOC, APPS TEMP CLOSED)

[Guadalupador]

Not to sound like an arrogant bastard,

But this thread is not about Feng becoming a Vassal State of Nihon. Can we get back to Alliance business?

It does bring up an interesting question, what is Feng's status as a country, and if its still in the IFC, do we expel it?

[Great Feng]

Not to sound like an arrogant bastard,

But this thread is not about Feng becoming a Vassal State of Nihon. Can we get back to Alliance business?

It does bring up an interesting question, what is Feng's status as a country, and if its still in the IFC, do we expel it?

Feng is still a country by all means. Nihon assured me of that.

[The United Remnants of America]

.... What have I walked into?

[Great Feng]

.... What have I walked into?

You walked into me cuddling you.

[The United Remnants of America]

.... What have I walked into?

You walked into me cuddling you.

Away with you.

[Great Feng]

You walked into me cuddling you.

Away with you.

[Guadalupador]

.... What have I walked into?

Feng forsaking its independence.

[Roskian Federation]

.... What have I walked into?

Feng forsaking its independence.

How many times do we have to have a 1v1 declared only to somehow get SACTO involved as well as the IFC before Feng learns its lesson?

[The United Remnants of America]

Feng forsaking its independence.

How many times do we have to have a 1v1 declared only to somehow get SACTO involved as well as the IFC before Feng learns its lesson?

.... Do we invade him?

[Roskian Federation]

Guys.
Don't go into Libya please.
Remember what happened last time a NATO style alliance went into a middle eastern country?
Just because I successfully "Reconquista" Iraq from a military and ethnically Feng dictator who couped the Feng government in 2009 and stole power doesn't mean we should go into the Middle East again. As for me I'm just forming alliances with Hejaz and Israel, to gain the three holiest cities in Islam under my sphere of influence and to further my already decent ties with Muslims to prevent a Jihad against Feng by all the other Muslim nations.
(Just as a precaution. )

In my future tech nation im working on, the Soviet Union crushed the west in the 1940's and 1950's, after a failed Operation Unthinkable. Soon, China couldn't hold off the Ruskies any longer. The US fell into isolation, underwent a civil war in the 1990's which allowed the Soviet Union to conquer the US in the early 2000's. At this point, nobody could hold off the reds.

See, I can do big boy as well.

[Pillowlandia]

How many times do we have to have a 1v1 declared only to somehow get SACTO involved as well as the IFC before Feng learns its lesson?

.... Do we invade him?

Already doing so, funnily enough.

[Roskian Federation]

How many times do we have to have a 1v1 declared only to somehow get SACTO involved as well as the IFC before Feng learns its lesson?

.... Do we invade him?

Do we want him to leave NS for two days just for him to do it again?

[Roskian Federation]

.... What have I walked into?

Apparently fighting over canon.

Of alternate universes.

Bc thats what we do in the ifc.

We yell for change in the government even tho LAA has the IFC by the balls, piss off SACTO, and forcibly suppress any form of individualism from Feng.

What an alliance.

[The United Remnants of America]

.... Do we invade him?

Already doing so, funnily enough.

Need any help?

[Great Feng]

.... Do we invade him?

Already doing so, funnily enough.

I am not gonna call for Nihonese support in this war as long as you don't.
I'll post soon and regroup my forces to retaliate to your offensive. Though Xinjiang and Inner China is admittedly not where I wanted this to go.go

[Great Feng]

Guys.
Don't go into Libya please.
Remember what happened last time a NATO style alliance went into a middle eastern country?
Just because I successfully "Reconquista" Iraq from a military and ethnically Feng dictator who couped the Feng government in 2009 and stole power doesn't mean we should go into the Middle East again. As for me I'm just forming alliances with Hejaz and Israel, to gain the three holiest cities in Islam under my sphere of influence and to further my already decent ties with Muslims to prevent a Jihad against Feng by all the other Muslim nations.
(Just as a precaution. )

In my future tech nation im working on, the Soviet Union crushed the west in the 1940's and 1950's, after a failed Operation Unthinkable. Soon, China couldn't hold off the Ruskies any longer. The US fell into isolation, underwent a civil war in the 1990's which allowed the Soviet Union to conquer the US in the early 2000's. At this point, nobody could hold off the reds.

See, I can do big boy as well.

I am just saying that we shouldn't go into the Middle East but assumed Pillow or someone would say ,but you did" so I clarified how different my situation was and how normally you shouldn't try to get involved.
My Hejaz and Israel plan is to ensure I nevsr need to fight there again besides in Iraq

[United States of Devonta]

Wow, this still exists?

I know right?

Devonta is feeling threatend, our Commonwealth Alaam-Aya is in the middle east. Hmmm... Don't try us!

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

For example, Labor often makes up 30-50% of all costs of a product, which increases even more for the more complex. Ralkovian Labor Costs for items often make up less than 10%.

I would take serious issue with that as the basis for your analysis. There are different types of labour. Have you ever looked at where the value in say an ipad comes from? A few years ago it was less than 10% from the entire manufacturing process. And just look at high-end airplanes or vehicles. What's important is the sort of labour, and value is mostly the result of the activity of creative people.

And therein is the crux of the problem with that understanding: the creative process is far more effective in more free nations, if RL is anything to go by: while you may be able to steal things and people who can create, creating more value requires a completely different mentality.

I can get into specifics if anyone desires, but productivity is ensured to be of almost similar levels to those of free citizens, and even in some cases exceeding it as the system is laid out with tangible rewards and benefits that can be achieved through measured progress.

I don't believe that for one minute. For a start, creativity is far too difficult to be achieved by measurable targets. Indeed one of the greatest threats to productivity is the tendency to try to target everything. While it is fine for some things like engineering, blue skies research cannot be targeted - it must be curiosity-driven, and creating an impetus on people to pursue valuable things means they will not take risks required to come up with disruptive technology. Diversity and tolerance is absolutely required to discover options for the best way of doing things, and nobody is about to try something different and experiment in a society which is not free and where failure means loosing out. People will do less risky things and will miss out on the largest rewards.

It is a fundamental problem with less free systems, and one of the few that I have an enormous quantity of evidence on, so you would have your work cut out to change my mind on the subject. It is feasible Ralkovia could have a wealthy resource-driven economy, but it will only grow/be stable/avoid precipitous decline by continuing to invade countries to gain more resources (rather like Napoleonic France).

Anyway, yes, 10 billion would be better thank you.

It's not worth it to Ralkovia to destroy the IFC, if Ralkovia loses a 1/5 of it's forces in the process. [/quote]
Even if you went for 15 billion people, you'd still have a GDP lower than Ausitoria on its own. Ausitoria, even more than Ralkovia, devotes tincy proportions of its military strength to fighting wars.

That isn't worth throwing away your independence at all. If your nation gets accepted, Feng, as a state, no longer exists.

I'd probably agree myself...

Not to sound like an arrogant bastard,

But this thread is not about Feng becoming a Vassal State of Nihon. Can we get back to Alliance business?

It does bring up an interesting question, what is Feng's status as a country, and if its still in the IFC, do we expel it?

This is what the Judicial Committee/Council/Internal Consul/Prime Minister is for.

(Can we have a quick straw poll on which one of the four should decide?)

[Ralkovian Grand Island]

For example, Labor often makes up 30-50% of all costs of a product, which increases even more for the more complex. Ralkovian Labor Costs for items often make up less than 10%.

I would take serious issue with that as the basis for your analysis. There are different types of labour. Have you ever looked at where the value in say an ipad comes from? A few years ago it was less than 10% from the entire manufacturing process. And just look at high-end airplanes or vehicles. What's important is the sort of labour, and value is mostly the result of the activity of creative people.

And therein is the crux of the problem with that understanding: the creative process is far more effective in more free nations, if RL is anything to go by: while you may be able to steal things and people who can create, creating more value requires a completely different mentality.

Exactly, and part of the cost of the labor of high-end airplanes and others is the skilled technicians that work on them. Ralkovia doesn't entirely rely on slaves to do so, but slavery enhances and lowers the cost of production by significant percentage on all levels of the manufacturing process.

Ralkovia can aptly manage to do both, Aus. Ethnic Ralkovians are very much educated and create similar levels of value. Slavery brings in skills for extremely cheap though, while retaining similar value in terms of expertise, technical, and applicable skills. I can "steal" people who can create and I can force them to work on the projects that my free citizens create, and do so at a reasonable cost that meshes well with current Ralkovian culture.

I can get into specifics if anyone desires, but productivity is ensured to be of almost similar levels to those of free citizens, and even in some cases exceeding it as the system is laid out with tangible rewards and benefits that can be achieved through measured progress.

I don't believe that for one minute. For a start, creativity is far too difficult to be achieved by measurable targets. Indeed one of the greatest threats to productivity is the tendency to try to target everything. While it is fine for some things like engineering, blue skies research cannot be targeted - it must be curiosity-driven, and creating an impetus on people to pursue valuable things means they will not take risks required to come up with disruptive technology. Diversity and tolerance is absolutely required to discover options for the best way of doing things, and nobody is about to try something different and experiment in a society which is not free and where failure means loosing out. People will do less risky things and will miss out on the largest rewards.

It is a fundamental problem with less free systems, and one of the few that I have an enormous quantity of evidence on, so you would have your work cut out to change my mind on the subject. It is feasible Ralkovia could have a wealthy resource-driven economy, but it will only grow/be stable/avoid precipitous decline by continuing to invade countries to gain more resources (rather like Napoleonic France).

Of course, slaves are not permitted to have creative work projects on their own, but they enhance the work of the free citizens and take the burden off the time cost of research, allowing more projects to be tackled because of cost-saving. It's true that this may in some cases retard absolute potential creative thought, but Ralkovia maintains significant enough resources to make up for any shortfalls.

And apologies for not explaining well enough, creativity is not the objective of the measurable targets for the slave system, instilling obedience, motivation, and high-productivity is. While slavery has largely been nonexistent in the West since the late 19th century (with small periods), and therefore finding RL research on it is difficult; it shouldn't be past belief that a nation that still uses slavery would not have produced similar academic achievements when in comes to slavery and productivity.

That being said Aus, that's exactly what Ralkovia partially does. Conquest provides a percentage of economic growth. Hence why my engagements are strategic, in so far, that Ralkovia is hesitant to waste resources engaging in wars it will not directly recoup by winning.

Even if you went for 15 billion people, you'd still have a GDP lower than Ausitoria on its own. Ausitoria, even more than Ralkovia, devotes tincy proportions of its military strength to fighting wars.

Unless you mean GDP per capita, I don't see exactly how.

[Great Feng]

I know right?

Devonta is feeling threatend, our Commonwealth Alaam-Aya is in the middle east. Hmmm... Don't try us!

Feng won't. Feng just needed to reconquer land from a traitorous ambitious general.
@L&A: Feng is still a nation. I recommend you google "Imperial Chibese Tributary system " and read it fully before any of you jump to conclusions.
All Feng does is pay tribute and is still officially and unofficially its own nation. Even Nihon officially ICly recognizes this.
Also I was in the IFC when a Vassal of Aravea and everyone's knew I was and there were no problems because of that. So chill out.

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

Devonta is feeling threatend, our Commonwealth Alaam-Aya is in the middle east. Hmmm... Don't try us!

Feng won't. Feng just needed to reconquer land from a traitorous ambitious general.
@L&A: Feng is still a nation. I recommend you google "Imperial Chibese Tributary system " and read it fully before any of you jump to conclusions.
All Feng does is pay tribute and is still officially and unofficially its own nation. Even Nihon officially ICly recognizes this.
Also I was in the IFC when a Vassal of Aravea and everyone's knew I was and there were no problems because of that. So chill out.

You have an extraordinary idea about what constitutes de-facto independence that the Ausitorian establishment is markedly unlikely to agree on. Aravea was a member of the IFC. But I expect the IFC would take issue with Feng being a vassal of an external power with no functional independent foreign policy. Taxation is a sovereign power, and therefore tribute is effectively a surrender of sovereignty.

Have you already made the IC announcement, by the way? If so I shall arrange the IC response.

And therein is the crux of the problem with that understanding: the creative process is far more effective in more free nations, if RL is anything to go by: while you may be able to steal things and people who can create, creating more value requires a completely different mentality.

Exactly, and part of the cost of the labor of high-end airplanes and others is the skilled technicians that work on them.

No, most of the value accrues to the designers - i.e. service-sector activities.

I would be very interested to know your figures for how much of Ralkovia's economic wealth is generated by primary (food, energy, etc.), secondary (manufacturing), and tertiary (service) activities?

creativity is not the objective of the measurable targets for the slave system, instilling obedience, motivation, and high-productivity is.

And therein lies the crux of our minor disagreement. Creativity is the only effective way for higher-level societies to enhance productivity and productivity growth, if the hundreds of papers and articles I have read on the subject provide me with an accurate appraisal. It's even a problem in the west, and that's about the most free you can get in terms of liberal choice-making. The freedom to make choices without boundaries is vital for a highly-functioning economy.

I expect it is unlikely I have convinced you in these opening remarks, as I have barely started to marshal arguments or evidence, so I would be interested if you could present a few contrary papers which we can critique in detail?

Or perhaps we could take it to the thread and argue the point there in detail if it becomes necessary?

Even if you went for 15 billion people, you'd still have a GDP lower than Ausitoria on its own. Ausitoria, even more than Ralkovia, devotes tincy proportions of its military strength to fighting wars.

Unless you mean GDP per capita, I don't see exactly how.

In the same way the US has a larger GDP than China (i.e. a higher GDP per capita completely offsetting the relative disparity in population).

[Rhinocera]

I think L&A is right on the GDP argument with you, Ralk. If we go by NS Stats, then your own GDP barely edges mine out in size, though your nation has over double Rhinocera's population. In turn, L&A's GDP is roughly twice the size of one our own. I think, in terms of GDP per Capita, your own is relatively meager in comparison with my own and L&A's, while my GDP per capita is slightly less than L&A's. You do, however, possess the advantage in regards to manpower and labor, especially considering much of your labor is likely derived from slaves. Either way, a war between yourself and L&A would not lean decisively in either party's favor regarding, with L&A theoretically holding a qualitative advantage while you would hold theoretical numerical superiority. It would be a long drawn out war and 1/5 of your forces would be a meager cost compared to what you would likely lose, and would still not guarantee a victory, though the same is true in reverse.

[Great Feng]

Feng won't. Feng just needed to reconquer land from a traitorous ambitious general.
@L&A: Feng is still a nation. I recommend you google "Imperial Chibese Tributary system " and read it fully before any of you jump to conclusions.
All Feng does is pay tribute and is still officially and unofficially its own nation. Even Nihon officially ICly recognizes this.
Also I was in the IFC when a Vassal of Aravea and everyone's knew I was and there were no problems because of that. So chill out.

You have an extraordinary idea about what constitutes de-facto independence that the Ausitorian establishment is markedly unlikely to agree on. Aravea was a member of the IFC. But I expect the IFC would take issue with Feng being a vassal of an external power with no functional independent foreign policy. Taxation is a sovereign power, and therefore tribute is effectively a surrender of sovereignty.

Have you already made the IC announcement, by the way? If so I shall arrange the IC response.

Exactly, and part of the cost of the labor of high-end airplanes and others is the skilled technicians that work on them.

No, most of the value accrues to the designers - i.e. service-sector activities.

I would be very interested to know your figures for how much of Ralkovia's economic wealth is generated by primary (food, energy, etc.), secondary (manufacturing), and tertiary (service) activities?

creativity is not the objective of the measurable targets for the slave system, instilling obedience, motivation, and high-productivity is.

And therein lies the crux of our minor disagreement. Creativity is the only effective way for higher-level societies to enhance productivity and productivity growth, if the hundreds of papers and articles I have read on the subject provide me with an accurate appraisal. It's even a problem in the west, and that's about the most free you can get in terms of liberal choice-making. The freedom to make choices without boundaries is vital for a highly-functioning economy.

I expect it is unlikely I have convinced you in these opening remarks, as I have barely started to marshal arguments or evidence, so I would be interested if you could present a few contrary papers which we can critique in detail?

Or perhaps we could take it to the thread and argue the point there in detail if it becomes necessary?

Unless you mean GDP per capita, I don't see exactly how.

In the same way the US has a larger GDP than China (i.e. a higher GDP per capita completely offsetting the relative disparity in population).

No besides the tribute I have complete power over foreign and internal affairs.
Ask Cuscy for details.

[Chricoma]

International Freedom Coalition IFC Admissions Department, International Commonwealth Agency, Alexandria, Ausitoria, Aestorian Commonwealth IFC Admissions Application National Information Formal Nation Name: The Kingdom of Chricoma Shortened Nation Name: Chricoma Demonym: Chricomian Capital city: Talford National Population (RP): Census not in Form of Government: Constitutional Monarchy + Parliamentary Democracy Is your Government by the people? (exercised either directly or through elected representatives or with democratic elements): Kind of I mean it is a Parliamentary Democracy so it is a Prime Minister not a President so the people do directly elect the head of government How do you describe the political atmosphere of your state? (Far-Left/Left/Center-Left/Center/Center-Right/Right/Far-Right): Center Head of State: King Fredrick Mitween IV Head of Government: PM William Haghs Economic System: Democratic Socialism Currency: Chricomian Blan Exchange Rate to NSD: Ʈ1.00 = $0.33 NSD Major Exports: 1. Cars Major Imports: 1. Iron and Steel Language: Chricomian and English Brief History of your nation: Started as three kingdom but one kingdom annexed the rest that kingdom went through many coups and stuff before reaching an absolute monarchy before becoming a constitutional monarchy Map: (Optional) IIwiki page link or factbook (if you have one): http://iiwiki.com/wiki/Chricoma Political and Civil Rights and Freedoms Does your nation have Freedom of thought: Yes Freedom of belief (religion): Yes Freedom of expression: Yes Freedom of the media: Kind of Freedom of peaceful assembly: Yes Freedom of association: Yes Freedom of movement: Yes Freedom from unreasonable search and seizure: Kind of Freedom from arbitrary detention or imprisonment: Yes Freedom from slavery: Yes Right to life, liberty and security of the individual: Yes Right to vote (The ability to vote upon reaching the age of majority): Yes Right to a fair trial, legal council, and a guarantee of habeas corpus: Yes Right to not be subject to cruel or unusual punishment: Yes Rights of equality (Equality regardless of racial, gender, sexual orientation, religion, age or mental or physical disability): Yes well women are not allowed to serve in the military Right to own property: Yes Right to free enterprise (and to what extent?): Yes as long as it does not infringe on rights and taxes will increase the more money it makes Right to innocent navigation: Yes Foreign Relations and Military Statistics What other military alliances are you a part of? (UL, SCP, SACTO, etc.): Founder of G.M.D Mutual Defense Pact What other non-military organizations are you a part of? (ISA, UPA, etc.): LETA Trade Zone Foreign Policy: Containment, or antiappeasment Number of active military personnel (RP): 104 Military police currently on the border Number of reserve military personnel (RP): I don't know off hand Nuclear Arsenal (if any): 10 Nuclear weapons, 1 bio weapon, and 2 chemical weapons Name of Military: Military of Chricoma Branches of Military: Army of Chricoma, Royal Marine Corps, Royal Navy of Chricoma, Royal Airforce of Chricoma and Military Police RP example (required - can be anything from a short paragraph on this form to a link to an RP example on another thread): viewtopic.php?f=5&t=379730&start=50 I don't do this RP any more but it is a good example as it is my first post in the RP Delegate to the IFC Council Information Name: Age: 32 Gender: Male Biography (optional): Education (optional): Reason for your nation desiring to join the IFC: To help create international peace Do you hereby agree to abide by the terms and conditions set forth under the Charter in IFC legislation?: Yes Signature: Treigar Keigar MOFA Date: 02/08/2016 **IFCAPP**

[Roskian Federation]

How can your foreign policy be containment when your military is literally 104 people?

What do you mean by "kind of" in freedom of media and freedom from unreasonable siezure?

Why are women not allowed to join the Armed Forces?

Why do you have 13 Weapons of Mass Destruction, if you only have 104 soldiers?

How did you get 5 Branches of Armed Forces but list 104 military police only?