International Freedom Coalition (OOC, APPS TEMP CLOSED)

[North Libya]

International Freedom Coalition IFC Admissions Department, International Commonwealth Agency, Alexandria, Ausitoria, Aestorian Commonwealth IFC Admissions Application National Information Formal Nation Name: The Democratic Republic of North Libya Shortened Nation Name: North Libya Demonym: North Libyan Capital city: Tripoli National Population (RP): 4.268 Billion Form of Government: semi-presidential constitutional republic Is your Government by the people? (exercised either directly or through elected representatives or with democratic elements): Yes How do you describe the political atmosphere of your state? (Far-Left/Left/Center-Left/Center/Center-Right/Right/Far-Right): Left Head of State: President Erin Johnson Head of Government: Same as above Economic System: Socialism Currency: North Libyan Dollar Exchange Rate to NSD: 1 North Libyan Dollar = $1.75 Major Exports: Minerals Major Imports: Salt, Leather, etc Language: English Brief History of your nation: My nations has a wiki, I'll get the link Map: (Optional) IIwiki page link or factbook (if you have one): Political and Civil Rights and Freedoms Does your nation have Freedom of thought: Yes Freedom of belief (religion): Yes Freedom of expression: Yes Freedom of the media: Yes Freedom of peaceful assembly: Yes Freedom of association: Yes Freedom of movement: Yes Freedom from unreasonable search and seizure: Yes Freedom from arbitrary detention or imprisonment: Yes Freedom from slavery: Yes Right to life, liberty and security of the individual: Yes Right to vote (The ability to vote upon reaching the age of majority): Yes Right to a fair trial, legal council, and a guarantee of habeas corpus: Yes Right to not be subject to cruel or unusual punishment: Yes Rights of equality (Equality regardless of racial, gender, sexual orientation, religion, age or mental or physical disability): Yes Right to own property: Yes Right to free enterprise (and to what extent?): Yes Right to innocent navigation: Yes Foreign Relations and Military Statistics What other military alliances are you a part of? (UL, SCP, SACTO, etc.): What other non-military organizations are you a part of? (ISA, UPA, etc.) Foreign Policy: Open (all) Number of active military personnel (RP): 232,000,000 Number of reserve military personnel (RP): 30,000,000 Nuclear Arsenal (if any): 1,200 Name of Military: The North Libyan Armed Forces Branches of Military: - North Libyan Army - North Libyan Navy - North Libyan Air Force - North Libyan Marines RP example (required - can be anything from a short paragraph on this form to a link to an RP example on another thread): I'll get that as soon as possible Delegate to the IFC Council Information Name: Jack Newman Age: 45 Gender: Male Biography (optional): Education (optional): Reason for your nation desiring to join the IFC: To establish more open alliances with other nations Do you hereby agree to abide by the terms and conditions set forth under the Charter in IFC legislation?: Yes Signature: President Erin Johnson Date: 30 July 2016 **IFCAPP**

[Great Feng]

>Libya
GTFO

[Ralkovian Grand Island]

Ardoki de-facto used a median-point with some flexibility, like me. In any event when you're outnumbered by more than twenty to one it doesn't make much difference.

If we're moving away from fighting Ardoki to fighting Ralkovia, I'm out. Much rather just avoid the inevitable realism concerns and OOC arguments associated with nations using NS stats and realism. :/

Well, we do outnumber the major slaver nations by about 4 to 1, and as a rule of thumb people RPing by harder standards can raise their populations by a third without fundamentally changing the nature of their nations. That would leave the IFC median nation size somewhere around 400 million (and an average of about 2 billion).

Still, Ralkovia, if we're to RP with everybody participating, if it's not too much trouble, would you perhaps be willing to put a cap at two thirds of NS population? Then the difference wouldn't be too absurd. (It would also make me more inclined to believe that Ralkovia could perhaps have a functioning economy more akin to what your RPs imply).

So at 10 billion or so?

I'm actually a violence tornado and prefer violence tornado pronouns.

Whirl, whirls and whirlself?

Bloodwhirl, bloodwhirls, and bloodwhirlself actually.

Quite so, but I seek to destroy you slowly and from within.

That sounds like the exact opposite of what a violence tornado should do.

Don't tell me how to live my life.

It’s not really so much the size- I wouldn’t change my nation’s stats for anything anyway, given the amount of work I’ve spent structuring my military. But yeah, my main issue is that with larger sized nations, you come into the whole “anything’s possible with x amount of resources” issue. I won’t even get into the nuclear weapons…

I see your concerns with this but from what I've been reading (And trust me, I've spent probably ten fucking hours catching up on RP's I've missed, I got this shit down) it seems like everybody here from the IFC to Ralkovia and his allies won't be doing anything remarkably dumb or unrealistic. If I were you I would be more concerned with OOC arguments that tend to plague us rather than IC realism.

Excuse me, my army of slaves grafted to a metal exoskeleton to make impenetrable slave mechsuits is neither dumb nor unrealistic.

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

Right to free enterprise (and to what extent?): Yes

Thank you for your application. To what extent please?

[...]

Slaves are rather dumb on a purely economic argument - creative industries is where it's at, guys (I'm tempted to write an economics guide for nationstates) - but dumb economic arguments are unfortunately realistic IRL too. And I'm down with exoskeletons (since they work, although the limitations are serious).

Anyway, yes, 10 billion would be better thank you.

It is very obviously within the IFC's remit, and the remit of all its members, to discuss what other members think about RPing and the constraints of realism.

That's fine, but it shouldn't be in such a manner as referring to specific RPers, and non-members of the coalition at that, and outright attempting to bait them. It makes this organization look bad, and unprofessional.

It is my opinion that asking people for their opinion of the relative merits of an argument involving other people does not count as baiting other people unless it is a systematic attack, which this doesn't seem to be.

Anyway, why don't you lot just give your views on the question instead of arguing about it? This is why the recent OOC arguments have been so bloody infuriating. People are arguing about how to argue, rather than sticking to the topic. Nobody even has a clue on how to get a clue. It's almost enough to make me despair.

Not meaning to start an argument either, simply curious - which bit do you dislike? Or do you mean all of it? If so, what standard do you use to judge people's designs?

My disagreement largely lies with the logic concerning population, and economic/resource capacity - I disagree with all of it, but it largely stems from this root cause, since the views expressed in there lead into into views on designs and so on.

I don't quite follow - could you expand a little please?

I also disagree on what views apparently categorise an MT RPer as 'decent'... though (and I'm not sure about this), maybe your particular turn of phrase there was just a rhetorical flourish?

I mean decent from my own point of view on this particular subject. Of course you can be generally decent and indecent in a specific matter, just as you can generally not be an idiot and still occasionally propound an idiotic viewpoint, or be a genius and occasionally be stupid, like Isaac Newton investing in the South Sea Bubble. Nobody's perfect, and to be perfect would be an imperfection in itself.

[Valaran]

Another time, perhaps.

[Victoriala II]

i still live

[Isle of Lost]

i still live

Many feels bro

[Ralkovian Grand Island]

[...]

Slaves are rather dumb on a purely economic argument - creative industries is where it's at, guys (I'm tempted to write an economics guide for nationstates) - but dumb economic arguments are unfortunately realistic IRL too. And I'm down with exoskeletons (since they work, although the limitations are serious).

The economic arguments only work if you subscribe to theories like "Humanism" or "Improving Economic Value of Citizens."

In that respect slavery is very important for economic, social, cultural, and political reasons, important enough, that as you said, outweigh purely economic arguments. That being said, Ralkovia operates on an alternative economic system that has different goals than that of countries like those in the IFC. Slavery makes the most economic sense in solving many such problems that develop in such a system while also allowing it to operate at economic growth levels and ratings similar to that of the free-market. Ralkovia values entirely different economic priorities to fuel it's own growth. Ralkovia plunders vast amounts of control, wealth, and territory, which fuels it's growth at similar levels to free-market nations.

In that regard, our economic system faces problems such as keeping the cost of production low so more can be produced. Slavery allows production costs to be held extremely low, which allows Ralkovia to produce technologically complex equipment cheaply. For example, Labor often makes up 30-50% of all costs of a product, which increases even more for the more complex. Ralkovian Labor Costs for items often make up less than 10%. Ralkovia has slaves at every level of it's operations, directly stealing expertise from other countries at a fraction of the cost of actually employing them. Enslaving the best minds of that nation and putting them to work, I believe is a much more literal form of the term "Intellectual Theft."

Of course, people often point out that there exist serious drawbacks, but the largest they try to point out is motivation and productivity. I'll dispel that point right now. Motivation is ensured by both stick and carrot to maintain a level of contentment and loyalty with slaves of value. I can get into specifics if anyone desires, but productivity is ensured to be of almost similar levels to those of free citizens, and even in some cases exceeding it as the system is laid out with tangible rewards and benefits that can be achieved through measured progress. The value you produce is measured and the rewards are given. These include starting or reuniting a family, to upgrading levels of housing, to buying provisional citizenship. It must of course be believed that Ralkovia, which has had a system of slavery so entrenched that a citizen can graduate from any University or College with a Degree in "Slave Management," has perfected methods to ensure and maximize the value of it's slaves to comparable levels through actual academic study.

There are other reasons I can go into, if anyone wants to discuss it in specific. I've put plenty of thought into how it works in Ralkovia.

Anyway, yes, 10 billion would be better thank you.

I would scale my numbers based on your alliances numbers or we'll have to figure something out. Ralkovian general strategy is not to waste resources fighting opponents at similar power levels. Ralkovia wouldn't go head to head against Lamoni, because it would largely end in ruin, even if it ended in victory. Ralkovia wouldn't desire depleting it's armed forces for the next few years for a series of outside conquests for the sake of expansionism. It's not worth it to Ralkovia to destroy the IFC, if Ralkovia loses a 1/5 of it's forces in the process.

That means you'd have to do some things to royally piss the Ralkovians off or you'd have to decide to attack Ralkovia itself.

[New Chilokver]

I have massive problems with exoskeletons. But then again, my miniscule military of 800,000 will hardly make a difference anyway.

[Ralkovian Grand Island]

I have massive problems with exoskeletons. But then again, my miniscule military of 800,000 will hardly make a difference anyway.

We can graft your 800,000 soldiers to my exoskeletons as well.

[North Libya]

Right to free enterprise (and to what extent?): Yes

Thank you for your application. To what extent please?

[...]

Slaves are rather dumb on a purely economic argument - creative industries is where it's at, guys (I'm tempted to write an economics guide for nationstates) - but dumb economic arguments are unfortunately realistic IRL too. And I'm down with exoskeletons (since they work, although the limitations are serious).

Anyway, yes, 10 billion would be better thank you.

That's fine, but it shouldn't be in such a manner as referring to specific RPers, and non-members of the coalition at that, and outright attempting to bait them. It makes this organization look bad, and unprofessional.

It is my opinion that asking people for their opinion of the relative merits of an argument involving other people does not count as baiting other people unless it is a systematic attack, which this doesn't seem to be.

Anyway, why don't you lot just give your views on the question instead of arguing about it? This is why the recent OOC arguments have been so bloody infuriating. People are arguing about how to argue, rather than sticking to the topic. Nobody even has a clue on how to get a clue. It's almost enough to make me despair.

My disagreement largely lies with the logic concerning population, and economic/resource capacity - I disagree with all of it, but it largely stems from this root cause, since the views expressed in there lead into into views on designs and so on.

I don't quite follow - could you expand a little please?

I also disagree on what views apparently categorise an MT RPer as 'decent'... though (and I'm not sure about this), maybe your particular turn of phrase there was just a rhetorical flourish?

I mean decent from my own point of view on this particular subject. Of course you can be generally decent and indecent in a specific matter, just as you can generally not be an idiot and still occasionally propound an idiotic viewpoint, or be a genius and occasionally be stupid, like Isaac Newton investing in the South Sea Bubble. Nobody's perfect, and to be perfect would be an imperfection in itself.

To great extent

[Great Feng]

Guys.
Don't go into Libya please.
Remember what happened last time a NATO style alliance went into a middle eastern country?
Just because I successfully "Reconquista" Iraq from a military and ethnically Feng dictator who couped the Feng government in 2009 and stole power doesn't mean we should go into the Middle East again. As for me I'm just forming alliances with Hejaz and Israel, to gain the three holiest cities in Islam under my sphere of influence and to further my already decent ties with Muslims to prevent a Jihad against Feng by all the other Muslim nations.
(Just as a precaution. )

[Pillowlandia]

Guys.
Don't go into Libya please.
Remember what happened last time a NATO style alliance went into a middle eastern country?
Just because I successfully "Reconquista" Iraq from a military and ethnically Feng dictator who couped the Feng government in 2009 and stole power doesn't mean we should go into the Middle East again. As for me I'm just forming alliances with Hejaz and Israel, to gain the three holiest cities in Islam under my sphere of influence and to further my already decent ties with Muslims to prevent a Jihad against Feng by all the other Muslim nations.
(Just as a precaution. )

Islam is the second largest religion in Pillowlandia Minor, just letting you know Feng.

[Great Feng]

Guys.
Don't go into Libya please.
Remember what happened last time a NATO style alliance went into a middle eastern country?
Just because I successfully "Reconquista" Iraq from a military and ethnically Feng dictator who couped the Feng government in 2009 and stole power doesn't mean we should go into the Middle East again. As for me I'm just forming alliances with Hejaz and Israel, to gain the three holiest cities in Islam under my sphere of influence and to further my already decent ties with Muslims to prevent a Jihad against Feng by all the other Muslim nations.
(Just as a precaution. )

Islam is the second largest religion in Pillowlandia Minor, just letting you know Feng.

OH GOD NO NOT FENG'S VERSION OF IRAN! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-
Eh I'll just have my and my own allies's own Muslims Jihad for a Muslim Pillowlandian State.

[Guadalupador]

Feng? Why did you apply to join the Nihonese Empire?

[Great Feng]

Feng? Why did you apply to join the Nihonese Empire?

The Feudal Intrigue RP sold me on it. Plus I get to do whatever I want within reason. And I have a nice red button for emergencies.
Plus I can still have my own vassals and allies.
I'm basically free as long as I pay tribute.
This also prevents Cuscy from interfering in most of my wars as long as they don't interfere with his interests.
That lifts off a huge potential diplomatic and military problem.
EDIT: You know what they say: If you can't beat 'em join 'em.

[Riysa]

Guys.
Don't go into Libya please.
Remember what happened last time a NATO style alliance went into a middle eastern country?
Just because I successfully "Reconquista" Iraq from a military and ethnically Feng dictator who couped the Feng government in 2009 and stole power doesn't mean we should go into the Middle East again. As for me I'm just forming alliances with Hejaz and Israel, to gain the three holiest cities in Islam under my sphere of influence and to further my already decent ties with Muslims to prevent a Jihad against Feng by all the other Muslim nations.
(Just as a precaution. )

Try me.

[North Libya]

Guys.
Don't go into Libya please.
Remember what happened last time a NATO style alliance went into a middle eastern country?
Just because I successfully "Reconquista" Iraq from a military and ethnically Feng dictator who couped the Feng government in 2009 and stole power doesn't mean we should go into the Middle East again. As for me I'm just forming alliances with Hejaz and Israel, to gain the three holiest cities in Islam under my sphere of influence and to further my already decent ties with Muslims to prevent a Jihad against Feng by all the other Muslim nations.
(Just as a precaution. )

Hey Feng, Islam is the biggest religion in the world and if Muslims would want to kill and invade you, they would. My nation is based off the 2011 Civil War but with the U.S Annexing it and so on..

[North Libya]

Guys.
Don't go into Libya please.
Remember what happened last time a NATO style alliance went into a middle eastern country?
Just because I successfully "Reconquista" Iraq from a military and ethnically Feng dictator who couped the Feng government in 2009 and stole power doesn't mean we should go into the Middle East again. As for me I'm just forming alliances with Hejaz and Israel, to gain the three holiest cities in Islam under my sphere of influence and to further my already decent ties with Muslims to prevent a Jihad against Feng by all the other Muslim nations.
(Just as a precaution. )

Try me.

I think we should become friends tbh

[Guadalupador]

That isn't worth throwing away your independence at all. If your nation gets accepted, Feng, as a state, no longer exists.

[Riysa]

Try me.

I think we should become friends tbh

Depends. What's your nation?

[Ralkovian Grand Island]

Guys.
Don't go into Libya please.
Remember what happened last time a NATO style alliance went into a middle eastern country?
Just because I successfully "Reconquista" Iraq from a military and ethnically Feng dictator who couped the Feng government in 2009 and stole power doesn't mean we should go into the Middle East again. As for me I'm just forming alliances with Hejaz and Israel, to gain the three holiest cities in Islam under my sphere of influence and to further my already decent ties with Muslims to prevent a Jihad against Feng by all the other Muslim nations.
(Just as a precaution. )

Islam is the second largest religion in Pillowlandia Minor, just letting you know Feng.

I'll have to fix that now, won't I.

[New Chilokver]

That isn't worth throwing away your independence at all. If your nation gets accepted, Feng, as a state, no longer exists.

Shhh... He doesn't need to know that.

[North Libya]

I think we should become friends tbh

Depends. What's your nation?

A Democratic republic that has a Socialist Economy.

[Riysa]

Depends. What's your nation?

A Democratic republic that has a Socialist Economy.

Nah...I think I'll just set up my own guys.

Islam is the second largest religion in Pillowlandia Minor, just letting you know Feng.

I'll have to fix that now, won't I.

Oh, long time no see! I still got that map if you want to go at it.