International Freedom Coalition (OOC, APPS TEMP CLOSED)

[Asigna]

DISHONOURABLE PUNISHMENT (LING CHI - THOUSAND CUTS PUNISHMENT):
[...]
- Espionage

You do know that makes war with Ausitoria inevitable at some point?

In Aigéantir we have a simple policy you go to jail.

The only sensible policy for the IFC.

We support this.

[Inyourfaceistan]

We also leave rehab for common criminals, such as thieves, fraudsters and such.
Especially juvenile delinquents.
People that legitimately messed up and can be taught the error of their ways.

But serial rapists, murders, spies, and drug kingpins can eat a bullet for all we care.
Ammo is a lot cheaper than giving some murder a free house and meals...

[Ardoki]

Ardoki, as a civilised country, has abolished the death penalty (back in 1886, save for a bit of counter-revolutionary neutralisation around that time). We have life imprisonment (without parole) as an option for judges when sentencing (we have abolished juries, and now a council of judges oversee all criminal cases) serious cases of violent crimes (such as murder, rape, torture and mutilation) when the defendant has been deemed to dangerous to be released. (These offenders are placed in special prisons)

However our justice system prioritises rehabilitation of offenders, and is against the punishment of them. They have committed a crime and there is nothing we can do to change that, what the state should focus on is rehabilitating them so they can become cooperative members of society again.

For example: Our prisons are nice places designed to be as similar to the outside world as possible (so when the prisoners are released they can easily fit back into society); each prisoner (they are refereed to as 'guests' in the justice system) has their own private bedroom and bathroom and they share (with several other prisoners) their own kitchens and living rooms. There are sports areas, outdoor areas and indoor recreational areas. The guests are taught life skills such as cooking, cleaning and how to manage money, and are given all the education and technical training that you could get outside the prison (prisons are termed 'rehabilitative schools') such as programming, woodwork, teaching, etcetera. They have access to sports and music facilities, as well as video games, films and television. The guards become friends and mentors of the guests, and are instrumental in the rehabilitation; playing games with the guests and such. The guests are also given free access to materials and people, to pleasure themselves with; as well as the ability to have private time with their spouses.

Just a very limited overview of our justice system. Please feel free to ask me questions, it'll help me flesh our my system more (and would be of great benefit to me).

Though Conner does have a rehab system in place of prisons (for the most part, barring max security places dotted around the country, the SHIELD/SWORD/FID black sites and the prisons in Antarctica), I'm pretty sure what you've laid out would be pretty expensive. Conner facilities are essentially large campuses, sort of comparable to college campuses: you've got your dorms, typically two or occasionally 3 or 4 to a room (3 or 4 would be placed in a larger room), then you have your rehab centers that teach basic skills needed for reintegration to society as well as to make sure they don't commit whatever crime they committed again.

That being said, they are under armed guard at all times, and while they have a relative degree of freedom, it's still not a very pleasant time. It has to act as a deterrent, or else it's not going to stop anything.

First of all. It would not act as a deterrent at all, there is absolutely no evidence that it would work as a deterrent. The people committing the crimes think they are going to get away with it, that is why they commit the crime, they couldn't care less about the possible penalties as they don't they they would have to deal with them.

Rehabilitative approaches are not nearly as expensive as some people believe. I understand some people want criminals (and wrongly convicted people) to suffer (such as being raped) and be punished inhumanely, but in the long run this costs more. The vast majority of crimes are committed because of poverty and lack of education (obviously Ardoki prevents this through universal access to education and policies to eliminate poverty), giving the prisoners education and training will allow them to find good jobs they enjoy once they leave prison, and they can start paying taxes back into the system.
Whereas were punishment and deterrent is prioritised, the prisoners are traumatised in prison (often raped and subjected to extreme violence and drug use), told they are scum and criminals and deserve to be there (and they start believing it), they become use to the irregular routine of prison and cannot function outside of it in the real world, and not given the education and training they desperately need. In short, once released the prisoners often come back to prison not long after, and those who manage to remain free are almost always dependent on government support/welfare and are often now psychologically ill and traumatised from their experiences.

Norway's cost of incarceration per prisoner is only about 15% to 20% more expensive than the US'. Rehabilitation is not that much costlier up-front, and definitely works our cheaper in the long-run.

[New Aeyariss]

I have my doubts that executing a spy from a nation you're trying to keep good relations with would be something Cuscy would do. Just shoot them quietly and move on.

I don't kill spies. I use them. To disinform enemy is far better than to kill a spy. While he is operational he has his uses .

[Ardoki]

We also leave rehab for common criminals, such as thieves, fraudsters and such.
Especially juvenile delinquents.
People that legitimately messed up and can be taught the error of their ways.

But serial rapists, murders, spies, and drug kingpins can eat a bullet for all we care.
Ammo is a lot cheaper than giving some murder a free house and meals...

Replace 'murderer' with 'Jew'.

Think about it for a second.

Does what you said start to sound reprehensible and barbaric now?

Regardless of their crime, they are still human and deserving of humane treatment.

[United States of Conner]

We also leave rehab for common criminals, such as thieves, fraudsters and such.
Especially juvenile delinquents.
People that legitimately messed up and can be taught the error of their ways.

But serial rapists, murders, spies, and drug kingpins can eat a bullet for all we care.
Ammo is a lot cheaper than giving some murder a free house and meals...

Replace 'murderer' with 'Jew'.

Think about it for a second.

That's not really a good comparison at all.

[Ardoki]

Replace 'murderer' with 'Jew'.

Think about it for a second.

That's not really a good comparison at all.

They are still humans, and deserve human treatment.

The comparison is valid.

[Common Territories]

That's not really a good comparison at all.

They are still humans, and deserve human treatment.

The comparison is valid.

No. It is not. Comparing the death sentence (from what I am told this is about) to the Holocaust is like comparing 1st degree murder to manslaughter - the two are unrelated other then someone dies at the end (and if you don't know what they are: 1st degree murder is the planned and premeditated intended murder of another person - manslaughter is the unintended and non-meditated causing of death of another person). Injecting the Holocaust into this is completely disrespectful to those survivors and the dead, including surviving family members like me who learned of this horrible ordeal that happened to distant family members - unlike a death row inmate, Holocaust victims weren't given a fucking court process nor were they allowed to defend themselves. All they got was "left" or "right" - one side lead to a deadly gas shower and the next a life of slavery then death. And that's not including the many mass killings through bullets that occurred to save time and prevent survivors and evidence. People like Timothy McVeigh, for example, deserve death. If you commit a crime so heinous, so destructive, and so deadly that it kills over a hundred people like he did - I think his just desert was what he caused, death.

[Asigna]

I urge people to stop debating their subjective opinions on OOC views and avoid it at all costs. We don't want OOC bad blood don't we?

[United States of Conner]

That's not really a good comparison at all.

They are still humans, and deserve human treatment.

The comparison is valid.

One is an ethnic group that you're born as, or a religion that really doesn't make much of a difference as to who you are, your character, etc.

The other is a group specifically designated for killers. In general, that tends to be a choice.

Is the death penalty a bit extreme? Probably. But calling them the same thing really isn't correct.

[Ardoki]

I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I personally view killing someone as bad regardless of whom that person is or what they have done.

While I still believe my comparison to be correct. I overlooked how some people might get offended, and I did not intend that.

I apologise, and shall end this conversation here.

[Asigna]

I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I personally view killing someone as bad regardless of whom that person is or what they have done.

While I still believe my comparison to be correct. I overlooked how some people might get offended, and I did not intend that.

I apologise, and shall end this conversation here.

I personally believe your opinions on this matter is just and right (killing is always wrong and the notions of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is primitive). But it is not right that we pursue our convictions here lest we want to make this simple IFC discussion thread into a fight club of ideologies.

[United States of Conner]

I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I personally view killing someone as bad regardless of whom that person is or what they have done.

While I still believe my comparison to be correct. I overlooked how some people might get offended, and I did not intend that.

I apologise, and shall end this conversation here.

I personally believe your opinions on this matter is just and right (killing is always wrong and the notions of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is primitive). But it is not right that we pursue our convictions here lest we want to make this simple IFC discussion thread into a fight club of ideologies.

This is not to say we don't support the idea of making an IFC fight club.

That needs to happen.

[New Aeyariss]

I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I personally view killing someone as bad regardless of whom that person is or what they have done.

While I still believe my comparison to be correct. I overlooked how some people might get offended, and I did not intend that.

I apologise, and shall end this conversation here.

I personally believe your opinions on this matter is just and right (killing is always wrong and the notions of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is primitive). But it is not right that we pursue our convictions here lest we want to make this simple IFC discussion thread into a fight club of ideologies.

Well if convicted criminal in Nihon is physically fit, he is handled over to the Special Forces so they can train hand to hand combat on him.

But yeah. People must stop OOCly rating IC action.

[Inyourfaceistan]

I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I personally view killing someone as bad regardless of whom that person is or what they have done.

While I still believe my comparison to be correct. I overlooked how some people might get offended, and I did not intend that.

You compared a culture/religion to murderers and serial rapists.

Where did you think it was going to go?

[Ardoki]

I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I personally view killing someone as bad regardless of whom that person is or what they have done.

While I still believe my comparison to be correct. I overlooked how some people might get offended, and I did not intend that.

You compared a culture/religion to murderers and serial rapists.

Where did you think it was going to go?

Why did you remove this part of my post: I apologise, and shall end this conversation here. ?

Some of the people executed via the death penalty are innocent. May people who have been executed were later found out to be innocent, and there are many more who are innocent but it is not known yet. At least 4.1% of death row inmates are innocent.
Statistically, there would have been victims of the holocaust who were rapists and murders. Do you think they should have been killed by the Nazis?

Both the death penalty and the Holocaust were/are acts of mass murder, in which innocent people have been killed. The state should not take the lives of people, no matter their crimes.
That is my personal opinion. I am against all forms of killing, regardless of the actions of the victim I think it is morally wrong and wholly unjustified.

Again. I did not intend to offend, and shall leave it at this. Please don't continue, this is cluttering up this nice thread.

[Aigeantir]

See, I wasn't really that wrong in saying "ship 'em to Ardoki" as a form of punishment.... at least that's money we wouldn't have to spend on our own criminals

[Ardoki]

See, I wasn't really that wrong in saying "ship 'em to Ardoki" as a form of punishment.... at least that's money we wouldn't have to spend on our own criminals

Ardoki isn't really that bad.

We are a hell-hole according to conservatives. But we have certain standards we maintain.

[Aigeantir]

See, I wasn't really that wrong in saying "ship 'em to Ardoki" as a form of punishment.... at least that's money we wouldn't have to spend on our own criminals

Ardoki isn't really that bad.

We are a hell-hole according to conservatives. But we have certain standards we maintain.

No, it's not me making a statement about your system, more like me recognizing that you have a very liberal outlook on criminal rehabilitation, and I can save a whole lot of money to convince you to take my criminals so I don't have to pay for rehabilitation!

It's me being cheap!

[Ardoki]

Ardoki isn't really that bad.

We are a hell-hole according to conservatives. But we have certain standards we maintain.

No, it's not me making a statement about your system, more like me recognizing that you have a very liberal outlook on criminal rehabilitation, and I can save a whole lot of money to convince you to take my criminals so I don't have to pay for rehabilitation!

It's me being cheap!

Why would we accept your criminals though? If they were our citizens, or had committed crimes in Ardoki we would obviously accept them. Otherwise we would have no reason to.

[Brytene]

What have I started

[Azenyanistan]

Somebody pls accept my app

[Common Territories]

You compared a culture/religion to murderers and serial rapists.

Where did you think it was going to go?

Why did you remove this part of my post: I apologise, and shall end this conversation here. ?

Some of the people executed via the death penalty are innocent. May people who have been executed were later found out to be innocent, and there are many more who are innocent but it is not known yet. At least 4.1% of death row inmates are innocent.
Statistically, there would have been victims of the holocaust who were rapists and murders. Do you think they should have been killed by the Nazis?

Both the death penalty and the Holocaust were/are acts of mass murder, in which innocent people have been killed. The state should not take the lives of people, no matter their crimes.
That is my personal opinion. I am against all forms of killing, regardless of the actions of the victim I think it is morally wrong and wholly unjustified.

Again. I did not intend to offend, and shall leave it at this. Please don't continue, this is cluttering up this nice thread.

Let me say this again clearly so you and anyone else daring to compare the Holocaust and a judicial death sentence as similar event. There is a shit-ton cargo truck worth of differences between someone who was wrongly proven to be guilty of a crime and the act of rounding up an entire people in order to exterminate them; throwing entire families in a converted shower gas chamber to die is genocide - giving someone the needle is totally fucking different. Death row inmates are sent to prison till their sentence is carried out eventually, not suffer many if any human rights abuses; very different then sending them to factories to make weapons to kill their saviors or other product/infrastructure but then being shot and thrown into an oven when they're so broken down, so sick and weak, that they can't even move. You know who choose a death row inmate to die? The judge and prosecutor who tried them after the jury convicted him. You know who killed droves of Jewish families and split tons more during the any number of liquidation phases? A soldier or low tiered military officer part of the military branch handling the Final Solution; it was often a "This person was too weak" or "Looks too sick and frail" situation, but it all began buy sending small children, elderly, and anyone else looking unfit for manual labor to the left to trains for gas chambers. Are you seeing the differences yet!? There is a difference between Elie Wiesel and fucking Anthony Ray Hinton - one had the system that sent him there save his life and the other watched nearly his entire bloodline die in front of him only to survive by God's grace, not the system who sent him there. So before you compare a political debate to the fucking Holocaust, just stop. I couldn't care less what side you're on in that debate, just keep the Holocaust and the several million people murdered in it out of it.

I couldn't care less if your IC country does it or if it's brutal about it. I have said to Cusc plenty of times he's too gory for the sake of it - we never debate it, I just tell him what I think. My country IC isn't too much nicer and we aren't the nicest country to foreigners either. But that's IC writing. In real life im pro-death penalty and I have plenty of thoughts on the subject but that is not the point here. The point here is that comparing the Holocaust to the death penalty to further your point on that debate is offensive and needs to stop. I suggest making points like you had about wrongly convicted people rather then referring to the Holocaust. Because these people didn't get a jury or trial based on rights or laws in a courtroom - they were murdered in cold blood as part of an antisemitic campaign for total genocide of a race of people.

Sorry if im extending this argument further, but this needs to be said clearly for everyone's sake. I will end my side of responses to this here.

[Ardoki]

-Snip-

Why are you trying to continue arguing?

Do you have no consideration for this thread? Do you want it to get locked (as what happened to several UL threads)?

EDIT: I will no longer be responding.

[Brytene]

yo here's the thread I was talking about

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=354879&p=26110815#p26110815

open to all