International Freedom Coalition (OOC, APPS TEMP CLOSED)

[Flardania]

Nooo! What about Millard? What about Celeste and Steffan-Arthuur?

My thoughts exactly... and what about your embassy programme? I was hoping to use that as an opportunity to kick off my own embassy programme!

I was hoping to use that to make a revamped embassy program.

[Inyourfaceistan]

Well there is obviously a difference between killing a bunch of civilians and political dissenters before posting it on the internet to get kool-points with the radical Sunni community versus discretely interrogating and torturing the fuck out of a spy or something similar...

Yeah, but on the whole most people would prefer to live in countries where the government doesn't make up excuses to kidnap and torture people.

I think "he's a fucking spy, we can prove it" doesn't really require any competent intelligence service to "make up excuses"...

I think the backlash to Guantanamo and that made it pretty clear.

The backlash to Guantanamo is that they were holding American citizens (granted radical Muslim anti-American American citizens, but American citizens nonetheless) SUSPECTED of terrorism, not because a few Haji's were getting fake-drowned in an attempt to get them to squeal the location of their buddies...


As you can see, most Americans believe torture is acceptable in some instances; once again the issue wasn't "torture", rather detaining American citizens on unproven charges and then using enhanced interrogation methods.

Another thing that I will agree was fucked up was using these methods on uniformed Iraqi soldiers, while many Iraqi government officials basically walked clean in terms of interrogation...

You can debate back and forth all day but the long story short is, places that don't commit human rights abuses are typically nicer places to be...

Entirely objective.
I would much rather live in Tel-Aviv or Barranquilla than Geneva or Amsterdam...
(Of course, assuming you prescribe to the leftist view that Israel and Colombia are guilty of human rights abuses, or that torturing terrorists is even a human rights abuse in the first place; both of which I don't)

[Brytene]

I think "he's a fucking spy, we can prove it" doesn't really require any competent intelligence service to "make up excuses"...

"We think- o wait turns out he's a barber, no biggie, it's just torture amirite"

:/

The backlash to Guantanamo is that they were holding American citizens (granted radical Muslim anti-American American citizens, but American citizens nonetheless) SUSPECTED of terrorism, not because a few Haji's were getting fake-drowned in an attempt to get them to squeal the location of their buddies...

Right, but if like you said above, you use torture because 'I think he's a spy, let's torture him to prove it', not only are you hurting your own citizens without proof (innocent until proven guilty?) but also as has been mentioned, people will say aanything to avoid torture after a while. I bet if you got left to the tender mercies of even the tamest torture regimen, given enough time they could make you confess to being a space lizard

As you can see, most Americans believe torture is acceptable in some instances; once again the issue wasn't "torture", rather detaining American citizens on unproven charges and then using enhanced interrogation methods.

See above point

also, tbh just because the public is pro something doesn't make it strategically or politically sound - people were pro the Iraq/Afghanistan wars, despite them being massive busts and playing right into Bin Laden's hands

Another thing that I will agree was fucked up was using these methods on uniformed Iraqi soldiers, while many Iraqi government officials basically walked clean in terms of interrogation...

One thing we do agree upon

Entirely objective.
I would much rather live in Tel-Aviv or Barranquilla than Geneva or Amsterdam...

Because of the thriving nightlife, or....?

[Ardoki]

That is 100% correct.

I just don't understand how people can believe torture works as a way of getting information? Surely someone being tortured would say whatever they think the interrogators would want to hear in order to get the torture to stop.

Smart interrogators torture one guy and then make his friends watch.

And they usually have ways of deciphering what is the truth and what is a lie...

That wouldn't produce a different result. They would still simply say whatever they think the torturers want to hear.

How exactly do they decipher the truth from lies? If they already know the truth, there is no point in torturing then.

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

That is 100% correct.

I just don't understand how people can believe torture works as a way of getting information? Surely someone being tortured would say whatever they think the interrogators would want to hear in order to get the torture to stop.

Smart interrogators torture one guy and then make his friends watch.

And they usually have ways of deciphering what is the truth and what is a lie...

In which case you get confirmation bias, people admitting to crimes and plots that they have nothing to do with, giving information which is only judged to be true if it matches what is already suspected. Torture might work once in a blue moon but it doesn't work anywhere near reliably enough to be justifiable, and it gives a nation a really bad name. Much better to rely on conventional intelligence.

[The United Remnants of America]

I saw the PolyComps a few pages back. Personally I prefer the "World Smallest Political Quiz". I find it a much better quiz than the PolyComp one.



Although, if you want to know where I stand on the PolyComp, it is this...


[img]https://www.politicalcompass.org/chart?ec=-2.25&soc=-3.95[/im]

Master Shaz. *bows down to*

Teach me your ways. For we are nearly identical on the poly comp.

[Inyourfaceistan]

I think "he's a fucking spy, we can prove it" doesn't really require any competent intelligence service to "make up excuses"...

"We think- o wait turns out he's a barber, no biggie, it's just torture amirite"

Because "tourists" and "diplomats" (<-- the latter whom we probably didn't even invite in the first place) sneak onto highly secure facilities and/or try to steal/sabotage shit all the time apparently...

Right, but if like you said above, you use torture because 'I think he's a spy, let's torture him to prove it', not only are you hurting your own citizens without proof (innocent until proven guilty?)

OMG the CIA tortured some Haji they caught crossing from Pakistan into Afghanistan I'm reeling in pain...
No, wait, I don't feel a thing...

Smart interrogators torture one guy and then make his friends watch.

And they usually have ways of deciphering what is the truth and what is a lie...

That wouldn't produce a different result. They would still simply say whatever they think the torturers want to hear.

And when the interrogators go off to chase a false lead and it turns out to be a lie they keep torturing, maybe throw in another guy to make the remaining pals squeal.
Enough BS leads and torture and at least one or more of them will begin to see their comrades suffering as inflicted by their own doing and break down and talk.

How exactly do they decipher the truth from lies?

1) If an answer is too obvious then it probably inst real
2) If an answer sounds too good to be true then it is
3) If an answer doesn't make any sense then it doesn't
4) If an answer is possible then follow it up and find out, if its not keep inflicting pain until you get something that makes sense...

Furthermore, there are techniques trained psychologists can use to get an accurate idea if someone is BS'ing...

If they already know the truth, there is no point in torturing then.

Well if you're a spy then you probably have local contacts, you probably know what secrets you sold to the enemy, you might even know what your team is planning.

If every spy/assassin/etc. was a lone wolf and/or kept in the dark you might have a point, but the fact is people need networks to operate with effectiveness...

In which case you get confirmation bias, people admitting to crimes and plots that they have nothing to do with, giving information which is only judged to be true if it matches what is already suspected. Torture might work once in a blue moon but it doesn't work anywhere near reliably enough to be justifiable

Most lies have some basis in truth.
Even if a captured asset gives out a list of bogus plots or targets, or starts naming of every person they have come into contact with sense they were inserted into said nation you now still have a list of possibilities, you know have something to work with...

and it gives a nation a really bad name.

If they find out you tortured someone in a deep, dark bunker somewhere before taking them into the middle of the jungle and executing them as opposed to just taking them out into the remote wilderness and shooting them.
Or even denying you ever caught them for that matter...

Much better to rely on conventional intelligence.

Who said I was ignoring conventional intelligence?
Use them both in tandem.

[Brytene]

Because "tourists" and "diplomats" (<-- the latter whom we probably didn't even invite in the first place) sneak onto highly secure facilities and/or try to steal/sabotage shit all the time apparently...

Yeah but...every time you're wrong, you just tortured a totally innocent person, and since no agency or human being is infallible...

plus it's always easy to imagine the 'bad guys' under the boot, no-one who advocates it ever imagines they might be the 'enemy', the 'unwanted' or the 'undesirables'

OMG the CIA tortured some Haji they caught crossing from Pakistan into Afghanistan I'm reeling in pain...
No, wait, I don't feel a thing...

Ask not for whom the bell tolls

EDIT - also pls reply to embassy thread ;_; sorry if i metagamed by making that offer but tbh, it's what you asked for and i get the feeling we're both gonna be happy when we don't have to RP together anymore eh?

[Baden Baden]

I have elections(kind of)

[New Chilokver]

I'll just repeat this...

Torture doesn't work.

That is 100% correct.

I just don't understand how people can believe torture works as a way of getting information? Surely someone being tortured would say whatever they think the interrogators would want to hear in order to get the torture to stop.

Torture could be used as a punishment. However I don't see the point - A waste of time and energy really. And pretty savage and uncivilised.

Torture is not necessary in the extraction of information from prisoner. Nor, is it the most reliable. However, both of you seem to be under the impression that I'd be using torture on each and every single person I interrogate as standard procedure. As Ard has said, torture is a large use of time and energy, and as such should only be reserved for special cases.

Let me be clear here- I don't in any way like torture, but I do believe it to be a useful tool in interrogation. Both of you make the point that in order to stop the torture, a person would speak up a false tale- doesn't all interrogation run the risk of someone telling lies? I'm not sure how torture would particularly increase that possibility. Torture's simply a tool in interrogation, in the way that an interrogator might guess at information to give the impression that he already knows everyone and that a prisoner might as well tell everything, torture is used to enforce that. The whole point of torture is to provide an incentive to speak the truth and break one's spirit and resistance.

As for "savage and barbaric", well isn't that the same with warfare? Both are ugly, but both still exist because both have a reason to.

[Inyourfaceistan]

That is 100% correct.

I just don't understand how people can believe torture works as a way of getting information? Surely someone being tortured would say whatever they think the interrogators would want to hear in order to get the torture to stop.

Torture could be used as a punishment. However I don't see the point - A waste of time and energy really. And pretty savage and uncivilised.

Torture is not necessary in the extraction of information from prisoner. Nor, is it the most reliable. However, both of you seem to be under the impression that I'd be using torture on each and every single person I interrogate as standard procedure. As Ard has said, torture is a large use of time and energy, and as such should only be reserved for special cases.

Let me be clear here- I don't in any way like torture, but I do believe it to be a useful tool in interrogation. Both of you make the point that in order to stop the torture, a person would speak up a false tale- doesn't all interrogation run the risk of someone telling lies? I'm not sure how torture would particularly increase that possibility. Torture's simply a tool in interrogation, in the way that an interrogator might guess at information to give the impression that he already knows everyone and that a prisoner might as well tell everything, torture is used to enforce that. The whole point of torture is to provide an incentive to speak the truth and break one's spirit and resistance.

^This

Because "tourists" and "diplomats" (<-- the latter whom we probably didn't even invite in the first place) sneak onto highly secure facilities and/or try to steal/sabotage shit all the time apparently...

Yeah but...every time you're wrong, you just tortured a totally innocent person, and since no agency or human being is infallible...

Well then that's their fucking fault for going into a foreign country and getting caught doing something espionage-ish...

But I will be sure to bring up this argument the next time I'm in England "hunting pigeons" with a sniper rifle right near where David Cameron is coincidentally giving a speech...

plus it's always easy to imagine the 'bad guys' under the boot, no-one who advocates it ever imagines they might be the 'enemy', the 'unwanted' or the 'undesirables'

This is mostly false.
Most people who advocate it know damn well their enemies wouldn't hesitate to torture them...

EDIT - also pls reply to embassy thread ;_; sorry if i metagamed by making that offer but tbh, it's what you asked for and i get the feeling we're both gonna be happy when we don't have to RP together anymore eh?

I will, I will...
Let me get around to it..

[Brytene]

Well then that's their fucking fault for going into a foreign country and getting caught doing something espionage-ish...

k but now that's just boiled down to 'we torture people who look shifty'

But I will be sure to bring up this argument the next time I'm in England "hunting pigeons" with a sniper rifle right near where David Cameron is coincidentally giving a speech...

Oh no my favourite politician ever how could you say such a thing!

though tbf everyone knows you shoot birds with a shotgun

This is mostly false.
Most people who advocate it know damn well their enemies wouldn't hesitate to torture them...

Actually I meant that no-one ever imagines their own side will do it to them. You, as an American, are presumably moderately confident that you will never end up in Guantanamo Bay or being waterboarded in some black site, but say someone of your personal ethnicity or political belief committed an atrocity and you suddenly found yourself being 'randomly selected' at airports way more often, would you still be cheering for the use of torture and brutality?

Besides, as Lord Hoffman said, "The use of torture is dishonourable. It corrupts and degrades the state which uses it and the legal system which accepts it."

In other words, if you torture the 'haji' because you think he'll do the same to you, what makes you any better than him?

I will, I will...
Let me get around to it..

Yaay!

[Inyourfaceistan]

Well then that's their fucking fault for going into a foreign country and getting caught doing something espionage-ish...

k but now that's just boiled down to 'we torture people who look shifty'

Well then I'm sorry to all the innocents who get caught trying to sneak onto secure positions, steal military secrets, assassinate individuals, etc...

Happy?

Actually I meant that no-one ever imagines their own side will do it to them. You, as an American, are presumably moderately confident that you will never end up in Guantanamo Bay or being waterboarded in some black site, but say someone of your personal ethnicity or political belief committed an atrocity and you suddenly found yourself being 'randomly selected' at airports way more often, would you still be cheering for the use of torture and brutality?

Insignificant tangent. I already stated torturing your OWN CITIZENS and on top of it only SUSPECTS is wrong.

If I get caught sneaking into Pakistan with a bomb in my backpack I assume damn well they would try and torture me and I wouldn't blame them.

[Krjder]

Felt kinda jerkish just buggering off like that. This for the IFC, but for others too.

The krjder that many of you know now is a far cry from the Krjder that I originally spawned several years ago. Different people, different politics, different culture and ultimately a different player has shaped it over the years.

However, though it's current incarnation; a direct parliamentary democracy headed by a monarchy is a much better place than the original military junta I had going, the stains on my profile will always remain. Those of you such as Brytene and Aigeantir have only seen the better version of Krjder and thus they have no prejudices. Others have known me for a long time, and, friend or foe, have seen my worst.

RL life is also getting more demanding in the way of academia and other things. I have some pretty intensive exams heading my way, like Latin and Ancient Greek and some which I loath like biology and maths.

It's for the above reasons why I must take a break, and why when I do return, it won't be with krjder, so that I can have a clean board. Sadly that will mean for most of you, you will never know 'krjder again'.

But I would like to say a few more things. Inyourfaceistan, we've had a lot of heated spats, and I've gotten angry with you lots. I'm really sorry, but without you, I wouldn't be half the rper I am now. Cuscy, thanks for being a great guy and for teaching me heaps on military realism, that goes for Riysa too. Thanks Kidlantis also, it's been an honour to fight with and against you.

Aigeantir, Devonta, OS, URA, Ontorisa, Carloso and others you've been great, keep it up! Brytene, New Edom, Ghant, it's been great to RP with you, and an honour. Artite, Bresdenn, Romberg, Serretes, Urelia - you've been great friends, all of you. Thank you.

IFC, you're a great bunch of guys. I'm no philosopher, but I sense challenging times for you. Stay together, keep strong and stop arguing, support OS, he's the man for the job and he can get you through.

Ciao!

[Preussverige]

I'm going to sound very impatient when I say this, but are you still reviewing my application to join the IFC?

[Organized States]

I'm sad to see you go, bud. I'm going to miss you hanging out on the chat with Devonta and myself.

I hope your future endeavors are all that you want them to be.

I'm going to sound very impatient when I say this, but are you still reviewing my application to join the IFC?

I just finished.

You're going to be accepted on a probationary basis on the condition that you tweek your RPing.

There's several people in here whom I'm sure would be willing to help you out on that.

[United States of Devonta]

----SNIP----

I'll miss you man, sad to see you go. Honestly, I regret not chatting with you till like a week ago. Your a really interesting person and I hope you fulfill your family tradition in the Danish Army and good luck in Cadet Academy. Maybe will find ourselves in a NATO exercise someday together

[The United Remnants of America]

*Watches as yet another member of PW leaves*

Well. Fuck. Bye, Krjderdlkjdfkajbd.

[Novo Wagondia]

Felt kinda jerkish just buggering off like that. This for the IFC, but for others too.

The krjder that many of you know now is a far cry from the Krjder that I originally spawned several years ago. Different people, different politics, different culture and ultimately a different player has shaped it over the years.

However, though it's current incarnation; a direct parliamentary democracy headed by a monarchy is a much better place than the original military junta I had going, the stains on my profile will always remain. Those of you such as Brytene and Aigeantir have only seen the better version of Krjder and thus they have no prejudices. Others have known me for a long time, and, friend or foe, have seen my worst.

RL life is also getting more demanding in the way of academia and other things. I have some pretty intensive exams heading my way, like Latin and Ancient Greek and some which I loath like biology and maths.

It's for the above reasons why I must take a break, and why when I do return, it won't be with krjder, so that I can have a clean board. Sadly that will mean for most of you, you will never know 'krjder again'.

But I would like to say a few more things. Inyourfaceistan, we've had a lot of heated spats, and I've gotten angry with you lots. I'm really sorry, but without you, I wouldn't be half the rper I am now. Cuscy, thanks for being a great guy and for teaching me heaps on military realism, that goes for Riysa too. Thanks Kidlantis also, it's been an honour to fight with and against you.

Aigeantir, Devonta, OS, URA, Ontorisa, Carloso and others you've been great, keep it up! Brytene, New Edom, Ghant, it's been great to RP with you, and an honour. Artite, Bresdenn, Romberg, Serretes, Urelia - you've been great friends, all of you. Thank you.

IFC, you're a great bunch of guys. I'm no philosopher, but I sense challenging times for you. Stay together, keep strong and stop arguing, support OS, he's the man for the job and he can get you through.

Ciao!

Sad to see you go, man. Hopefully, future incarnations will be as interesting as you were; you've been a valuable member of this alliance through and through

And best of luck with all RL concerns; I'm sure you'll meet great success

[Preussverige]

I'm sad to see you go, bud. I'm going to miss you hanging out on the chat with Devonta and myself.

I hope your future endeavors are all that you want them to be.

I'm going to sound very impatient when I say this, but are you still reviewing my application to join the IFC?

I just finished.

You're going to be accepted on a probationary basis on the condition that you tweek your RPing.

There's several people in here whom I'm sure would be willing to help you out on that.

Thanks for accepting me to the IFC About my godmodding, the thread pretty much turned into a "who could out-godmod everyone else" competition in the end, sorry 'bout that.

[New Carloso]

*emotionally salutes Krjder*

God speed son.

[The Candy Queendom]

I'm sad to see you go, bud. I'm going to miss you hanging out on the chat with Devonta and myself.

I hope your future endeavors are all that you want them to be.

I'm going to sound very impatient when I say this, but are you still reviewing my application to join the IFC?

I just finished.

You're going to be accepted on a probationary basis on the condition that you tweek your RPing.

There's several people in here whom I'm sure would be willing to help you out on that.

Any chance that you've had time to look over the other applications, too?

[United States of Conner]

I'm sad to see you go, bud. I'm going to miss you hanging out on the chat with Devonta and myself.

I hope your future endeavors are all that you want them to be.

I'm going to sound very impatient when I say this, but are you still reviewing my application to join the IFC?

I just finished.

You're going to be accepted on a probationary basis on the condition that you tweek your RPing.

There's several people in here whom I'm sure would be willing to help you out on that.

I wanted the position of IFC Mentor, because ... I called it.

I'm sad to see you go, bud. I'm going to miss you hanging out on the chat with Devonta and myself.

I hope your future endeavors are all that you want them to be.


I just finished.

You're going to be accepted on a probationary basis on the condition that you tweek your RPing.

There's several people in here whom I'm sure would be willing to help you out on that.

Any chance that you've had time to look over the other applications, too?

*nudges OS*

Felt kinda jerkish just buggering off like that. This for the IFC, but for others too.

The krjder that many of you know now is a far cry from the Krjder that I originally spawned several years ago. Different people, different politics, different culture and ultimately a different player has shaped it over the years.

However, though it's current incarnation; a direct parliamentary democracy headed by a monarchy is a much better place than the original military junta I had going, the stains on my profile will always remain. Those of you such as Brytene and Aigeantir have only seen the better version of Krjder and thus they have no prejudices. Others have known me for a long time, and, friend or foe, have seen my worst.

RL life is also getting more demanding in the way of academia and other things. I have some pretty intensive exams heading my way, like Latin and Ancient Greek and some which I loath like biology and maths.

It's for the above reasons why I must take a break, and why when I do return, it won't be with krjder, so that I can have a clean board. Sadly that will mean for most of you, you will never know 'krjder again'.

But I would like to say a few more things. Inyourfaceistan, we've had a lot of heated spats, and I've gotten angry with you lots. I'm really sorry, but without you, I wouldn't be half the rper I am now. Cuscy, thanks for being a great guy and for teaching me heaps on military realism, that goes for Riysa too. Thanks Kidlantis also, it's been an honour to fight with and against you.

Aigeantir, Devonta, OS, URA, Ontorisa, Carloso and others you've been great, keep it up! Brytene, New Edom, Ghant, it's been great to RP with you, and an honour. Artite, Bresdenn, Romberg, Serretes, Urelia - you've been great friends, all of you. Thank you.

IFC, you're a great bunch of guys. I'm no philosopher, but I sense challenging times for you. Stay together, keep strong and stop arguing, support OS, he's the man for the job and he can get you through.

Ciao!

*21 gun salute*

Good luck, man. You'll be missed.

[Ardoki]

Felt kinda jerkish just buggering off like that. This for the IFC, but for others too.

The krjder that many of you know now is a far cry from the Krjder that I originally spawned several years ago. Different people, different politics, different culture and ultimately a different player has shaped it over the years.

However, though it's current incarnation; a direct parliamentary democracy headed by a monarchy is a much better place than the original military junta I had going, the stains on my profile will always remain. Those of you such as Brytene and Aigeantir have only seen the better version of Krjder and thus they have no prejudices. Others have known me for a long time, and, friend or foe, have seen my worst.

RL life is also getting more demanding in the way of academia and other things. I have some pretty intensive exams heading my way, like Latin and Ancient Greek and some which I loath like biology and maths.

It's for the above reasons why I must take a break, and why when I do return, it won't be with krjder, so that I can have a clean board. Sadly that will mean for most of you, you will never know 'krjder again'.

But I would like to say a few more things. Inyourfaceistan, we've had a lot of heated spats, and I've gotten angry with you lots. I'm really sorry, but without you, I wouldn't be half the rper I am now. Cuscy, thanks for being a great guy and for teaching me heaps on military realism, that goes for Riysa too. Thanks Kidlantis also, it's been an honour to fight with and against you.

Aigeantir, Devonta, OS, URA, Ontorisa, Carloso and others you've been great, keep it up! Brytene, New Edom, Ghant, it's been great to RP with you, and an honour. Artite, Bresdenn, Romberg, Serretes, Urelia - you've been great friends, all of you. Thank you.

IFC, you're a great bunch of guys. I'm no philosopher, but I sense challenging times for you. Stay together, keep strong and stop arguing, support OS, he's the man for the job and he can get you through.

Ciao!

I will miss you.

I'm sure Ardoki has a worse human rights record than you.

[Ontorisa]

Snip

Krj? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo