The League of Mechanocracies (Open, MT/PMT/FT, OOC, Signups)

[Ashkera]

When I screw up in PE, I always hoped that I could have a cybernetic arm or two so I can actually perform an underhand serve.

And also a brain chip when I screw up in Maths.

Well there comes the problem of augmentations, first of all in academical terms the augmented have an unfair advantage over everyone else, PE being a first one and then if you have a brainchip virtually everything. any solutions people

Socialism. Well, kinda. Under a Capitalist system, whoever gets those first will so massively out-compete everyone else that they may not be able to afford them on their puny human salaries. So instead you have the State subsidize them for whoever wants them. The State will need these for the military anyway the same it would need superheros - it can't maintain a monopoly on force if a small group of augmented people can subvert it easily.

Edit: Also, not coincidentally, depending on how powerful this stuff is, a state which upgrades a large portion of its potential workforce might economically clobber another country which is stingy when it comes to turning their citizens into human-robot hybrids for "free". It's a coordination problem thing.

[Vistora]

When I screw up in PE, I always hoped that I could have a cybernetic arm or two so I can actually perform an underhand serve.

And also a brain chip when I screw up in Maths.

Well there comes the problem of augmentations, first of all in academical terms the augmented have an unfair advantage over everyone else, PE being a first one and then if you have a brainchip virtually everything. any solutions people

Socialism. Well, kinda. Under a Capitalist system, whoever gets those first will so massively out-compete everyone else that they may not be able to afford them on their puny human salaries. So instead you have the State subsidize them for whoever wants them. The State will need these for the military anyway the same it would need superheros - it can't maintain a monopoly on force if a small group of augmented people can subvert it easily.

Edit: Also, not coincidentally, depending on how powerful this stuff is, a state which upgrades a large portion of its potential workforce might economically clobber another country which is stingy when it comes to turning their citizens into human-robot hybrids for "free". It's a coordination problem thing.

That's only truly relevant in a pre-globalist scenario. Otherwise, if one considered a company to be the base economic entity, then it would matter very little. Anyways, it make sense that all companies would sponsor the augmentation of their workers, each to gain a competitive edge over all others.

[Ashkera]

That's only truly relevant in a pre-globalist scenario. Otherwise, if one considered a company to be the base economic entity, then it would matter very little. Anyways, it make sense that all companies would sponsor the augmentation of their workers, each to gain a competitive edge over all others.

Those augmentations are going to be pretty expensive at first, and it's unclear just how much they'll come down in cost. Interacting with human biology is a lot more expensive than just widgets (consumer electronics and the like), and will likely remain so for some time.

It seems likely to me that companies would either just hire existing augmented workers (which is basically already what they do when it comes to more mundane human improvements), or debt-enslave people.

Well, let's put it differently - why would it be any different than university, the cost of which in more Capitalist states has been pushed off on the students rather than subsidized for the companies? edit: Wouldn't the widespread competition by workers just result in the lion's share of the gains being taken up by the owners of capital, as is basically the case now?

[Vistora]

That's only truly relevant in a pre-globalist scenario. Otherwise, if one considered a company to be the base economic entity, then it would matter very little. Anyways, it make sense that all companies would sponsor the augmentation of their workers, each to gain a competitive edge over all others.

Those augmentations are going to be pretty expensive at first, and it's unclear just how much they'll come down in cost. Interacting with human biology is a lot more expensive than just widgets (consumer electronics and the like), and will likely remain so for some time.

It seems likely to me that companies would either just hire existing augmented workers (which is basically already what they do when it comes to more mundane human improvements), or debt-enslave people.

Well, let's put it differently - why would it be any different than university, the cost of which in more Capitalist states has been pushed off on the students rather than subsidized for the companies? edit: Wouldn't the widespread competition by workers just result in the lion's share of the gains being taken up by the owners of capital, as is basically the case now?

The points you are throwing around are getting more erratic and less cohesive by the moment. Anyways, I'll TG you my answer once I get around to it. This debate is best constrained to relevant channels, of which the LoM general discussion thread is not.

[Ashkera]

The points you are throwing around are getting more erratic and less cohesive by the moment. Anyways, I'll TG you my answer once I get around to it. This debate is best constrained to relevant channels, of which the LoM general discussion thread is not.

Well, I'm tired and unmedicated right now and I haven't been operating at full power for about 3 years now. Let's just say I don't trust business or markets as much as some other people, even if I think they're useful. (This is reflected in Ashkera's stated economic model.)

And yeah, I was thinking "oh, this is going to turn into one of those Capitalism versus threads". The problem is that answering ST's question is not only inherently political, but also economic [edit: it's fundamentally about resource allocation]. (And "let's do nothing and let the markets sort it out" is a political and economic answer in itself.)

[Vistora]

The points you are throwing around are getting more erratic and less cohesive by the moment. Anyways, I'll TG you my answer once I get around to it. This debate is best constrained to relevant channels, of which the LoM general discussion thread is not.

Well, I'm tired and unmedicated right now and I haven't been operating at full power for about 3 years now. Let's just say I don't trust business or markets as much as some other people, even if I think they're useful. (This is reflected in Ashkera's stated economic model.)

And yeah, I was thinking "oh, this is going to turn into one of those Capitalism versus threads". The problem is that answering ST's question is not only inherently political, but also economic [edit: it's fundamentally about resource allocation]. (And "let's do nothing and let the markets sort it out" is a political and economic answer in itself.)

My thought process was more or less the same, regarding the nature of the argument. Not to mention, this question is both more relevant and more imminent when considering germline genetic augmentation and "designer babies". Anyways, I just decided that any debate with the scope and associated ideovitriol of Cap vs. Soc is best left off this thread.

[Tinfect]

Well, I'm tired and unmedicated right now and I haven't been operating at full power for about 3 years now. Let's just say I don't trust business or markets as much as some other people, even if I think they're useful. (This is reflected in Ashkera's stated economic model.)

And yeah, I was thinking "oh, this is going to turn into one of those Capitalism versus threads". The problem is that answering ST's question is not only inherently political, but also economic [edit: it's fundamentally about resource allocation]. (And "let's do nothing and let the markets sort it out" is a political and economic answer in itself.)

My thought process was more or less the same, regarding the nature of the argument. Not to mention, this question is both more relevant and more imminent when considering germline genetic augmentation and "designer babies". Anyways, I just decided that any debate with the scope and associated ideovitriol of Cap vs. Soc is best left off this thread.

As Capitalists have not yet arrived, I hereby declare this a victory for Socialists, by default!

[Vistora]

My thought process was more or less the same, regarding the nature of the argument. Not to mention, this question is both more relevant and more imminent when considering germline genetic augmentation and "designer babies". Anyways, I just decided that any debate with the scope and associated ideovitriol of Cap vs. Soc is best left off this thread.

As Capitalists have not yet arrived, I hereby declare this a victory for Socialists, by default!

Every hipster social democrat out there is gonna hiss at you for that.

[Vistora]

[Allancia]

(Image)

My favorite image on the Internet.

[Ashkera]

As Capitalists have not yet arrived, I hereby declare this a victory for Socialists, by default!

Every hipster social democrat out there is gonna hiss at you for that.

Well I mean, if we're saying my viewpoint is MT Ashkera's economic arrangement, I don't think I could be properly called a Socialist(tm). (Which is part of why I think it's less [Trope: Artistic License: Economics] to portray it as working in-universe.)

[Vistora]

Every hipster social democrat out there is gonna hiss at you for that.

Well I mean, if we're saying my viewpoint is MT Ashkera's economic arrangement, I don't think I could be properly called a Socialist(tm). (Which is part of why I think it's less [Trope: Artistic License: Economics] to portray it as working in-universe.)

It's a continuum, more or less, with several dimensions.

[Excidium Planetis]

As Vistora pointed out, ideally at least a few companies in capitalist countries would offer free or subsidized augmentations to workers to gain a competitive edge. Workers would then, ideally, flock to those companies, and for the short period of time when augmentations would be too expensive for most, there would still be an option for poor and middle class workers to get their hands on some new hands.

But, I see it as more of an automobile type thing. Cars were at first only for the rich, being too expensive for most. They could also be said to confer a (albeit small) advantage to the rich. However, as time went on, automobile companies improved manufacturing processes to make it cheaper to produce cars, and then lower prices to widen the customer base, until eventually almost everyone could save up to buy a car. (Side note, the socialist Warsaw Pact nations had less cars than the capitalists for many years. Capitalism FTW!) I imagine augmentations would work the same: At first, only the rich would have them, but they wouldn't give the rich much of an advantage: Do you get better at managing a corporation with bionic arms? Do those new digital eyes help you make smart investments? Later, as augmentation companies improve manufacturing processes, prices would drop and more people could afford augmentations, allowing the middle class to get them too. Eventually, even those at the poverty level could either take out a loan for some new legs, or buy a used or old model of cybernetic parts.

In Excidium Planetis, the military subsidizes them (because they make better soldiers, duh), and because military service is mandatory, augmentations are pretty easy to get.

[Vistora]

At this point, the debate is less about Capitalism vs. Socialism, and more about market vs. command economies. There's certainly quite a bit of overlap, but it's different nonetheless.

[Tinfect]

In Excidium Planetis, the military subsidizes them (because they make better soldiers, duh), and because military service is mandatory, augmentations are pretty easy to get.

The Imperium takes a similar approach.

All Augmentations, and the installation and development thereof, is controlled by the Imperium. Obviously, however, it is entirely possible for civilians to acquire Augmentations. If they're willing to pay a small fee, or, happen to have recently been in a horrible accident of some sort and lost a limb, or somesuch, they'll have no problem getting them. The Imperium, of course, subsidizes the latter, it comes as part of the whole Medical thing.

Of course, for Military use, they're also paid for by the Imperium, and usually go beyond basic limb replacement or other such obvious modifications. Sometimes referred to as Structural Reinforcement, or Human-Frame Alteration, depending on whether or not you read the form before signing it. This involves replacing the majority of their body with Cybernetics, partially so that they can use Powered Armour and not break every bone in their body, and partially so that they're still operating at levels far above Baseline without said Powered Armour.

It is also, however, possible to acquire augmentations that are more than really fancy prosthetics, though, that's more limited to Imperial Intelligence, as that's when you start getting into Digital Immortality and the ascendance of Human Consciousness to AI. This is, for obvious reasons, not something that the Imperium wants its Citizens to know they have.

[Aeiouia]

Due to our (Admittedly quite overpowered) post-scarcity economy, getting augments to the citizens that want them is incredibly easy. Almost no baseline Aeiouians exist anymore. Even our normal-sized, non-Demigod Jenei are nearly completely cybernetic at this point, and the older races in our faction might as well be more AIs at this rate.

Of course, almost no one in Aeiouia builds new citizens or has children (And there is a secret-in-character reason for this). So, it is kind of balanced out by our tiny and never-growing population. I am also going to ret-con us into having around 400 million citizens or so soon.

[Ashkera]

Do you guys get the feeling that there are lots of NS nations that slap the label "high tech" on themselves because it's a generic good thing or makes the army more powerful, but don't really follow through on the implications?

[Vistora]

Do you guys get the feeling that there are lots of NS nations that slap the label "high tech" on themselves because it's a generic good thing or makes the army more powerful, but don't really follow through on the implications?

Heh.

Hehehehehehe.

As a HARD science-fiction nation, I feel that way not just about FT nations in general, but most of my fellow mechanocracies as well.

[Maljaratas]

Do you guys get the feeling that there are lots of NS nations that slap the label "high tech" on themselves because it's a generic good thing or makes the army more powerful, but don't really follow through on the implications?

That'she why I like my region. The tech is explained, and furthermore you aren'the allowed to copy someone else's idea.

[Excidium Planetis]

Do you guys get the feeling that there are lots of NS nations that slap the label "high tech" on themselves because it's a generic good thing or makes the army more powerful, but don't really follow through on the implications?

Itry not to think about the ease with which a mentally unstable or particularly disgruntled citizen could destroy a very large part of Reckoner. Generally, we go for as many safeguards as possible when it comes to Warp Drives, but the ability to produce nuclear fusion bombs is alarming.

[Excidium Planetis]

Do you guys get the feeling that there are lots of NS nations that slap the label "high tech" on themselves because it's a generic good thing or makes the army more powerful, but don't really follow through on the implications?

That'she why I like my region. The tech is explained, and furthermore you aren'the allowed to copy someone else's idea.

I assume you mean "aren't allowed to copy someone else on NS's idea. Otherwise, you would pretty much have to reinvent science fiction to have anything FT. Can't copy the idea of warp drives, pick another method of FTL!

[Vistora]

That'she why I like my region. The tech is explained, and furthermore you aren'the allowed to copy someone else's idea.

I assume you mean "aren't allowed to copy someone else on NS's idea. Otherwise, you would pretty much have to reinvent science fiction to have anything FT. Can't copy the idea of warp drives, pick another method of FTL!

Maybe a Douglas Adams-esque FTL drive, with lots of funny names, and a control suite with a weid personality.

[Maljaratas]

That'she why I like my region. The tech is explained, and furthermore you aren'the allowed to copy someone else's idea.

I assume you mean "aren't allowed to copy someone else on NS's idea. Otherwise, you would pretty much have to reinvent science fiction to have anything FT. Can't copy the idea of warp drives, pick another method of FTL!

That is what I meant. We are mostly dealing in MT and a little PMT however.

[Ashkera]

Do you guys get the feeling that there are lots of NS nations that slap the label "high tech" on themselves because it's a generic good thing or makes the army more powerful, but don't really follow through on the implications?

Heh.

Hehehehehehe.

As a HARD science-fiction nation, I feel that way not just about FT nations in general, but most of my fellow mechanocracies as well.

I was actually thinking about the social/societal angle rather than the tech angle. I don't really care that much about the details of most of the (non-psionic, because that's just magic IMO) tech, including the Modern Tech tech, because I don't have the mental time-energy to care. (I'm in CS, not Mechanical Engineering, you know, and I'm not a military otaku. I can't even tell you all the current American military aircraft and their combat roles.) I think about peoples' Main Battle Tank balance in terms of game mechanics, not physics. (Though I do take physics into account, roughly, depending on distance into the future.)

Rather, I mean that it takes certain kinds of societies and research budgets to produce high technology. I'll grant Artistic License: Economics for NS socialist regimes on this one, but there are other traits besides the economy type that are important.

Instead, you somehow get highly-conservative monarchies with plasma rifles.

For the Nayba Collective, with their low population of Yakut survivalists, they're cheating by using an Ashkeran monolith.

(Also ST I didn't put Yakut as the language because I assumed it would degrade into a mish-mash with Russian, wince they're both spoken there. Buuuut I should change that.)

[Ashkera]

I'm honestly pushing it on the MT axis with Ashkera Prime in a few ways.

1. ARCIS (Augmented Reality Combat Information System) - It's basically Google Glass for soldiers. All the tech should technically exist for this in the real world, it's just a matter of combining it without spending $400 billion on a failed military software procurement project. (Here I take license to say that Ashkera's government is competent enough to do it.) It doesn't actually do fancy image recognition (among a few other things that are currently impractical IRL).

2. Deliberately creating greater-than-tetra-gametic human chimeras for use as field agents.

3. Voluntary Gattaca-style genetic selection program.

4. They're building a Rocket Sled Launch (roughly) up the side of mountain.