The United Left [OOC|SIGN-UP|6.0]

[The New Lowlands]

i don't care what it is you want to say you won't stand for or whatever

because if you can't be bothered to remain in a project just because it deviates from your will, you're obviously not suitable as a leader

Lowlands, can you understand what I am saying just fine?

Do not think I'm just gonna leave, when I'm saying that I mean I'm going to take some serious action if things don't go well.

stop jerking off

if you're going to make threats, or draw red lines, or whatever, do it

[New Jordslag]

Alea iacta est.

[North Yemen-]

Fine.

It will have elections.

But if things start going in the wrong direction beacuse of this I WILL not stand for elections on the one measly overviewing position.

i don't care what it is you want to say you won't stand for or whatever

because if you can't be bothered to remain in a project just because it deviates from your will, you're obviously not suitable as a leader

^Basically this.

An alliance of friends and RPers, by no means, should become the playtool of any individual person.

It's not a measly overviewing position. It's an absolutely crucial point of contention that we need to be able to have a dialogue about. Especially because your last bid with power was rather infamous.

[The United Remnants of America]

Lowlands, can you understand what I am saying just fine?

Do not think I'm just gonna leave, when I'm saying that I mean I'm going to take some serious action if things don't go well.

stop jerking off

if you're going to make threats, or draw red lines, or whatever, do it

I asked nicely for comments like these to stop.

Do I need to ask nicely for you to leave the UL thread for a few hours to calm down and find your more respectable tone?

[The New Lowlands]

stop jerking off

if you're going to make threats, or draw red lines, or whatever, do it

I asked nicely for comments like these to stop.

Do I need to ask nicely for you to leave the UL thread for a few hours to calm down and find your more respectable tone?

i actually missed that request, but fine

[New Jordslag]

I've been in the United Left since thread 1.0. I joined as one of the first members behind the founders. I've seen every system of governance and every triumph and tribulation this alliance has had.

Before the United Left, I had joined and those rose to a Co-OP of the Socialist Treaty Organization, of which the United Left took spiritual roots before the two officially merged.

While I have no problem whatsoever with a permanent authoritarian leader, as it cuts down on elections and the obvious issues with the opinions on weak and strong leaders, I believe that the authoritarian should, at least in part, be appointed by the members of the alliance. An alliance with an unpopular leader will cause more strife than is necessary. Thusly, if an authoritarian leadership is to take hold, the leader should be a popular and well-recieved leader that the people agree and want to lead the alliance.

This leader, as voiced by the United Left, is obviously not TUM.

So, I ask my fellow members of the United Left, and my colleagues from the CSS whom I no doubt are watching this discussion, I ask you: Who do you want to lead the TNI? What person do you see as competent, trustworthy, and all-around well-recieved enough to be not only a leader of the TNI, but the central figure that the alliance would rise and fall upon. Someone of great responsibility would need to take that burden. So I ask you, friends, colleagues, and allies, to choose wisely with a mind's eye set to the future.

Now, I'm actually rather happy that Cedoria mentioned this, as I was thinking it as well. This authoritarian leader shouldn't rule alone. There should be an asssiting council of advisors and leaders to help the leader we decide upon for TNI, as one man or woman cannot be omnipotent. I agree with Cedoria's thoughts that these advisors and leaders should be pooled from the CSS and the UL equally, as the optimistic plan for TNI is to be a melding of the two alliances.

The central leader, while having the final say, and given that power by the people, should know what decisions can be made by them alone, what decisions should be called upon by the advisors placed around them, and finally, what decisions that are major enough that the opinion of the entire alliance to be counted into the decision as well. Only a truly effective authoritarian leader would know not to lead on their own.

Finally, and I say this with all the authority and respect I've been granted by you by your voting me into the position of Commissar: The faults, problems, and issues associated with any person or with the UL in this discussion are in the past. And I personally wish to see the blame-game of past UL leaders and the character slandering of others in this thread stop now. I want to see everyone respected and treated as an equal. Drama must stop. Drama will stop. I hope that I'm understood clearly on that topic.

So, these are my thoughts as they stand. Make of them what you will. I believe the TNI could work well in taking the best parts of the UL, the CSS, and new ideas and meshing them together into a stronger alliance. It wouldn't be the first time an allaince is cannibalized by a new one with a stronger system, and it most likely won't be the last time.

Hmm. Seems like a good system. I like how you think, URA.

[The United Motherland]

i don't care what it is you want to say you won't stand for or whatever

because if you can't be bothered to remain in a project just because it deviates from your will, you're obviously not suitable as a leader

^Basically this.

An alliance of friends and RPers, by no means, should become the playtool of any individual person.

It's not a measly overviewing position. It's an absolutely crucial point of contention that we need to be able to have a dialogue about. Especially because your last bid with power was rather infamous.

I think you guys are very bad at interpreting what I say at all. Yes sure it was infamous - but thats also a huge statement compared to the absolute failure of the current UL. I am speaking I see its current standing as.. well horrible. We have had near null activity until I actually wanted get things back up and running - which seems to be a huge no go on it.

We are either taking this TNI bullshit or we're leaving it, alright. So what do we stand as? Are we going to sacrifice a sliver of democracy for progress or stay and die? Beacuse sure - we can have it elected.. But we need something to keep things under control.

[North Yemen-]

^Basically this.

An alliance of friends and RPers, by no means, should become the playtool of any individual person.

It's not a measly overviewing position. It's an absolutely crucial point of contention that we need to be able to have a dialogue about. Especially because your last bid with power was rather infamous.

I think you guys are very bad at interpreting what I say at all. Yes sure it was infamous - but thats also a huge statement compared to the absolute failure of the current UL. I am speaking I see its current standing as.. well horrible. We have had near null activity until I actually wanted get things back up and running - which seems to be a huge no go on it.

We are either taking this TNI bullshit or we're leaving it, alright. So what do we stand as? Are we going to sacrifice a sliver of democracy for progress or stay and die? Beacuse sure - we can have it elected.. But we need something to keep things under control.

This is certainly more than a "sliver of democracy."

Honestly, there's nothing wrong with alliance inactivity. It's come and gone in the past. There's no need to beat a tired horse.

[The New Lowlands]

^Basically this.

An alliance of friends and RPers, by no means, should become the playtool of any individual person.

It's not a measly overviewing position. It's an absolutely crucial point of contention that we need to be able to have a dialogue about. Especially because your last bid with power was rather infamous.

I think you guys are very bad at interpreting what I say at all. Yes sure it was infamous - but thats also a huge statement compared to the absolute failure of the current UL. I am speaking I see its current standing as.. well horrible. We have had near null activity until I actually wanted get things back up and running - which seems to be a huge no go on it.

We are either taking this TNI bullshit or we're leaving it, alright. So what do we stand as? Are we going to sacrifice a sliver of democracy for progress or stay and die? Beacuse sure - we can have it elected.. But we need something to keep things under control.

if we repeatedly misinterpret what you say, that suggests that it's a failure of communication at your end

also, to be frank, you repeatedly insulting the current UL or whatever isn't exactly inclining anyone to be friendly, I imagine.

i don't have a problem with the TNI project or whatever, but "keep things under control?"

[The United Motherland]

I think you guys are very bad at interpreting what I say at all. Yes sure it was infamous - but thats also a huge statement compared to the absolute failure of the current UL. I am speaking I see its current standing as.. well horrible. We have had near null activity until I actually wanted get things back up and running - which seems to be a huge no go on it.

We are either taking this TNI bullshit or we're leaving it, alright. So what do we stand as? Are we going to sacrifice a sliver of democracy for progress or stay and die? Beacuse sure - we can have it elected.. But we need something to keep things under control.

if we repeatedly misinterpret what you say, that suggests that it's a failure of communication at your end

also, to be frank, you repeatedly insulting the current UL or whatever isn't exactly inclining anyone to be friendly, I imagine.

i don't have a problem with the TNI project or whatever, but "keep things under control?"

Well if you don't have a problem now, how about we settle this.

URA. Your vote.

[New Jordslag]

^Basically this.

An alliance of friends and RPers, by no means, should become the playtool of any individual person.

It's not a measly overviewing position. It's an absolutely crucial point of contention that we need to be able to have a dialogue about. Especially because your last bid with power was rather infamous.

I think you guys are very bad at interpreting what I say at all. Yes sure it was infamous - but thats also a huge statement compared to the absolute failure of the current UL. I am speaking I see its current standing as.. well horrible. We have had near null activity until I actually wanted get things back up and running - which seems to be a huge no go on it.

We are either taking this TNI bullshit or we're leaving it, alright. So what do we stand as? Are we going to sacrifice a sliver of democracy for progress or stay and die? Beacuse sure - we can have it elected.. But we need something to keep things under control.

The problem is that we don't need to sacrifice a sliver of Democracy for progress. That same progress can be made with just the same amount of Democracy.

And don't think that we are misinterpreting what you say. All of our statements come from exactly what you type. You might have misspoken; that is understandable. But don't blame us for it.

Also, you can't really call the current UL system a complete failure when we have passed or denied quite a few bills the past week, set up a Missile System, and expelled members who were too inactive. Also, the bill we responded the fastest to was, hilariously enough, your own TNI bill. Kinda defeats your whole 'The Current System is a failure' argument when we were not failures in voting on your bill, hm? You can say it did poorly, sure; but certainly not a complete failure.

I might add that we have not had near null activity. Despite Ardoki being expelled from the UL, his whole executing SACTO Supporters thing dragged a few UL Members in and created tension between the UL and SACTO. We were also discussing activities to get us back on track, such as an international Leftist Festival- until you posted your bill.

[The New Lowlands]

we have passed or denied quite a few bills the past week, set up a Missile System, and expelled members who were too inactive. Also, the bill we responded the fastest to was, hilariously enough, your own TNI bill.

reasons to pay attention to UL stuff:

this would have been really useful to know earlier

thanks for the update, NJ

[Cedoria]

I think you guys are very bad at interpreting what I say at all. Yes sure it was infamous - but thats also a huge statement compared to the absolute failure of the current UL. I am speaking I see its current standing as.. well horrible. We have had near null activity until I actually wanted get things back up and running - which seems to be a huge no go on it.

We are either taking this TNI bullshit or we're leaving it, alright. So what do we stand as? Are we going to sacrifice a sliver of democracy for progress or stay and die? Beacuse sure - we can have it elected.. But we need something to keep things under control.

The problem is that we don't need to sacrifice a sliver of Democracy for progress. That same progress can be made with just the same amount of Democracy.

And don't think that we are misinterpreting what you say. All of our statements come from exactly what you type. You might have misspoken; that is understandable. But don't blame us for it.

Also, you can't really call the current UL system a complete failure when we have passed or denied quite a few bills the past week, set up a Missile System, and expelled members who were too inactive. Also, the bill we responded the fastest to was, hilariously enough, your own TNI bill. Kinda defeats your whole 'The Current System is a failure' argument when we were not failures in voting on your bill, hm? You can say it did poorly, sure; but certainly not a complete failure.

I might add that we have not had near null activity. Despite Ardoki being expelled from the UL, his whole executing SACTO Supporters thing dragged a few UL Members in and created tension between the UL and SACTO. We were also discussing activities to get us back on track, such as an international Leftist Festival- until you posted your bill.

And too add, our new alliance was also creating a fair bit of activity.

Look guys, to be perfectly honest, it seems like no matter what's going to happen here there will be a split between old UL and the TNI, which I don't want too see happen. If everybody is not brought along, frankly, me and my colleagues are leaning more towards staying independent at this time, as we have a much looser, more friendly military alliance structure which gives more freedom to individual nations, I'm not sure we're really ready to give it up yet for a gigantic organisation which seems it would be more unwieldly and burueacratic.

If UL splits over this, which I hope it doesn't, then those who don't join TNI are welcome in our ranks if they wish, however, we do hope that you find a way too work out the current disagreements and disputes without that happening, it would be a shame to see such a long and gloried alliance fall so acriminously.
Frankly, I would rather fight SACTO rather than engage in OOC bickering between friends and allies, if the Left cannot organise ourselves in some way, we will die. It's better too decide this quickly, whatever way you choose.

But know that we are watching this thread and results of the vote very closely, and we offer our continued support and friendship in these times.

[The Diasporia]

What in God's name did I miss?

[New Jordslag]

What in God's name did I miss?

So much. So, so, much.

[Ardoki]

Does the TNI have a thread yet?

[Vedria]

Time for my stand on this whole thing.

I voted for it, since it would facilitate a merger with the CSS, creating a new, united, left.

A far more representative left than we have today, which is merely an electoral dictatorship.

TUM, in my TGs to him over the past few weeks we've been discussing this TNI bill, he has explained to me the entire system, and, for me, it works out perfectly. It would be far more active and democratic since each member would actually contribute, rather than a leading minority handling everything by themselves. It would be great for all of us.

Now, if anyone thinks that this is a powerplay by TUM to retake power undemocratically, it's not. I trust him enough with the overseering of TNI.

And, after all, if he does redo his shenanigans during his tenure in the UL, well... he is only one and we are many. (no threat intended)

[New Jordslag]

Time for my stand on this whole thing.

I voted for it, since it would facilitate a merger with the CSS, creating a new, united, left.

A far more representative left than we have today, which is merely an electoral dictatorship.

TUM, in my TGs to him over the past few weeks we've been discussing this TNI bill, he has explained to me the entire system, and, for me, it works out perfectly. It would be far more active and democratic since each member would actually contribute, rather than a leading minority handling everything by themselves. It would be great for all of us.

Now, if anyone thinks that this is a powerplay by TUM to retake power undemocratically, it's not. I trust him enough with the overseering of TNI.

And, after all, if he does redo his shenanigans during his tenure in the UL, well... he is only one and we are many. (no threat intended)

I believe the term you are looking for is Electoral Oligarchy. And one of them is you. So please, don't try to make it sound like our current Government was a total failure and a waste of time, because it wasn't. We have accomplished things, such as a missile system and a small boost in activity thanks to Ardo's executing of SACTO supporters.

[Vedria]

Time for my stand on this whole thing.

I voted for it, since it would facilitate a merger with the CSS, creating a new, united, left.

A far more representative left than we have today, which is merely an electoral dictatorship.

TUM, in my TGs to him over the past few weeks we've been discussing this TNI bill, he has explained to me the entire system, and, for me, it works out perfectly. It would be far more active and democratic since each member would actually contribute, rather than a leading minority handling everything by themselves. It would be great for all of us.

Now, if anyone thinks that this is a powerplay by TUM to retake power undemocratically, it's not. I trust him enough with the overseering of TNI.

And, after all, if he does redo his shenanigans during his tenure in the UL, well... he is only one and we are many. (no threat intended)

I believe the term you are looking for is Electoral Oligarchy. And one of them is you. So please, don't try to make it sound like our current Government was a total failure and a waste of time, because it wasn't. We have accomplished things, such as a missile system and a small boost in activity thanks to Ardo's executing of SACTO supporters.

Im not saying that we've failed.

Im saying that through the TNI, we can become greater.

[New Jordslag]

I believe the term you are looking for is Electoral Oligarchy. And one of them is you. So please, don't try to make it sound like our current Government was a total failure and a waste of time, because it wasn't. We have accomplished things, such as a missile system and a small boost in activity thanks to Ardo's executing of SACTO supporters.

Im not saying that we've failed.

Im saying that through the TNI, we can become greater.

And if you want me to believe that, which I am willing to do, you'll have to prove it.

[Aeyariss]

Frankly, I would rather fight SACTO rather than engage in OOC bickering between friends and allies, if the Left cannot organise ourselves in some way, we will die. It's better too decide this quickly, whatever way you choose.

That's the fighting spirit. We like you and Vedria.

Frankly, I think alliances needs to have a designated rival in order to survive in the long run. I think that's why Axis survived into SACTO, once we had the UL - while Boji running it - as designated foe. Then the IFC. If TNI wishes to RP with SACTO we can always plan something properly. Just no more of that OOC bullshit (Asigna is gone, and I sure hope TUM wont repeat it). A clean slate.

[Rostogovia]

So about my app...

[Ardoki]

Frankly, I would rather fight SACTO rather than engage in OOC bickering between friends and allies, if the Left cannot organise ourselves in some way, we will die. It's better too decide this quickly, whatever way you choose.

That's the fighting spirit. We like you and Vedria.

Frankly, I think alliances needs to have a designated rival in order to survive in the long run. I think that's why Axis survived into SACTO, once we had the UL - while Boji running it - as designated foe. Then the IFC. If TNI wishes to RP with SACTO we can always plan something properly. Just no more of that OOC bullshit (Asigna is gone, and I sure hope TUM wont repeat it). A clean slate.

I liked Asigna. He was cool.

[Shazbotdom]

That's the fighting spirit. We like you and Vedria.

Frankly, I think alliances needs to have a designated rival in order to survive in the long run. I think that's why Axis survived into SACTO, once we had the UL - while Boji running it - as designated foe. Then the IFC. If TNI wishes to RP with SACTO we can always plan something properly. Just no more of that OOC bullshit (Asigna is gone, and I sure hope TUM wont repeat it). A clean slate.

I liked Asigna. He was cool.

Asigna was a power-hungry liar. I'm glad he's gone.

[New Aeyariss]

I liked Asigna. He was cool.

Asigna was a power-hungry liar. I'm glad he's gone.

He is still somewhere around, but left for ROTC from what I know now. Does not change the fact that he almost ruined Axis for reason... which I frankly, can not even get.

+ It was fun to fight him later on .