The United Left [OOC|SIGN-UP|6.0]

[The United Motherland]

-Snip-

For the most part, I approve. However...

Excuse, me. I have run successful Alliances before, and I will again. I have worked out quite a few defensive and peace treaties. In no way can you call me inexperienced or poorly trained. Distasteful relies on the opinion, though calling me that would be simply rude. I understand that you want the New Internationale, TUM, but there's no reason to blame us for the UL's inactivity; we've simply had nothing to do. Additionally:

I did not point that one to you, I have although noticed some ex-commisionars and appointed government members to be really low on the bar for what they were assigned for. I won't point out specifics beacuse that would be clearly agitating - but I have seen some much.. lower than needed people assigned to things that they shouldn't be assigned to until they get a proper education or are never asigned to it at all.

IV. The United Left Commissioners will surrender official UL accounts to The New Internationale government to not provoke any stealing of the account once the bill is voted in.

Surrender it to whom? We haven't even elected a TNI Government. You can't hand something over to positions that don't exist yet. Besides, we were elected to the UL Government, and seeing as, by your own words, the TNI is the direct successor of the UL, I say that the Commissars should be allowed to finish their terms, and then new elections shall be held for Commissars. It's only fair, after all. Or we could hold an election immediately after the formation of the TNI. And even if the same guys are elected, you can't still force us to surrender the account. You see my point? You can't rightly force us to surrender the UL Admin account if the people still want us in Office.

Well, two things to this.

1. The current provisional organizer, and by extent executive chairman(as a boji-like position back in our old days) is I. So yes, there may not be an elected position but the committe that is running the TNI and has been appointed currently stands for that until elections and the such.

2. Well if the people wanted you elected, and you by extent made a decision to not really keep you in elected power but make the TNI then I guess that was really the commissioners choices. To be honest though, as leftists it does not matter who will lead us - it only matters if we can thrive. If you succeed in the TNI elections hurrah for you, if not I guess the people didn't want you. Simple as that.

Also, there is a loophole in here that I do not quite like; you say that the merger will be discussed separately, meaning that it is possible for the UL to choose to stay independent. Yet you also say that the UL must close all it's threads once the TNI creates threads to fill out the same purpose. That would leave the UL crippled if they chose not to merge with you.

No.

Honestly my awnser is just no - I could easily make the alliance better without any merger but it would still help.

We also need to talk about what representative body we shall have. Obviously, in addition to the Commisars, we need a single, central leader to be chosen in elections. A Chairman of the TNI, maybe. That is obviously a major problem the UL is having, I will admit, but until you fix it so that the TNI doesn't end up exactly like the UL, I will have to disagree with your bill. I do realize that I am outvoted. Therefore, if you do not fix the mistakes I have pointed out, or at least compromise on them, I will resign in protest and join SACTO. Seriously. I am willing to give the TNI a try, but not if it becomes a dark, undemocratic version of the UL- which your bill leaves lots of room for.

I can see your concerns and I appologize for some of the things that some people have said while I was gone(this happens a lot so you honestly have to wait for me to offically reply). But I am plotting out a very democratic charter at the moment(which I will start when my testing week ends) that has much more democracy including a proletarian council to house non-government members, a small representative senate, a vice-chairman, and the one non-democratic position, the executive commisionar. Which is really.. REALLY common. I mean 100% certain in all alliances.

[The United Motherland]

An old UL that was plagued by dictatorship and a ruined reputation, might I add.

That 'dictatorship' was what kept the United Left active back then. And don't try to act like you have the moral high ground now when you were TUM's right hand man at the time.

Don't forget that the new TNI will be even more democratic and will have the general public empowered strongly instead of commissioners or a senate.

[Imperial Valaran]

Why is this still going on.

[The United Motherland]

And don't forget I'm not in control of the account, actually. I do not have the password and I have not logged in(you can ask the mods if you really want to verify) I made an accidental typo when I said "if the vote is passed" I meant to put "when the TNI is formed," currently the account is just being watched over.

[Alosteq Diin Nastja]

An old UL that was plagued by dictatorship and a ruined reputation, might I add.

That 'dictatorship' was what kept the United Left active back then. And don't try to act like you have the moral high ground now when you were TUM's right hand man at the time.

I was, but I am no longer. Democracy was the best thing to happen to the UL.

[The United Motherland]

That 'dictatorship' was what kept the United Left active back then. And don't try to act like you have the moral high ground now when you were TUM's right hand man at the time.

I was, but I am no longer. Democracy was the best thing to happen to the UL.

It is.

When of course the democratically elected people do not abuse it.

Not to really hit at you my friend - but were you calling for a full-UL vote when you were empowered and the answer was in your favor?

[Alosteq Diin Nastja]

I was, but I am no longer. Democracy was the best thing to happen to the UL.

It is.

When of course the democratically elected people do not abuse it.

Not to really hit at you my friend - but were you calling for a full-UL vote when you were empowered and the answer was in your favor?

Which full-UL vote do you mean?

[The United Motherland]

It is.

When of course the democratically elected people do not abuse it.

Not to really hit at you my friend - but were you calling for a full-UL vote when you were empowered and the answer was in your favor?

Which full-UL vote do you mean?

Well I mean there was none.

But when I had lost the TNI bill with the old commisionars due to a loophole there was no voting for all the citizens. But I must say, now that you are out of office and things do not go you way... It just dosn't feel right my friend.

I mean if anything this.. entire argument is kinda subject to the UL system. There is not really a way to really.. if you get what I'm saying - voice your opinion if it matters unless you wait for the next elections and win/campaign for some people. The argument we are having developed from an issue in the system that would be hard to fix.

[Alosteq Diin Nastja]

Which full-UL vote do you mean?

Well I mean there was none.

But when I had lost the TNI bill with the old commisionars due to a loophole there was no voting for all the citizens. But I must say, now that you are out of office and things do not go you way... It just dosn't feel right my friend.

I mean if anything this.. entire argument is kinda subject to the UL system. There is not really a way to really.. if you get what I'm saying - voice your opinion if it matters unless you wait for the next elections and win/campaign for some people. The argument we are having developed from an issue in the system that would be hard to fix.

I see what you mean. You want to introduce a system in which all matters are voted on by everyone?

[The United Motherland]

Well I mean there was none.

But when I had lost the TNI bill with the old commisionars due to a loophole there was no voting for all the citizens. But I must say, now that you are out of office and things do not go you way... It just dosn't feel right my friend.

I mean if anything this.. entire argument is kinda subject to the UL system. There is not really a way to really.. if you get what I'm saying - voice your opinion if it matters unless you wait for the next elections and win/campaign for some people. The argument we are having developed from an issue in the system that would be hard to fix.

I see what you mean. You want to introduce a system in which all matters are voted on by everyone?

Not exactly - that would be too inefficent. But with the TNI we could have a much easier, cleaner, and more direct democracy.

[Vedria]

Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

Guys, reread the bill.

Was there any mention of as to how the TNI government will be run?

Was there any mention of a dictatorship taking over?

Hell, was there even any mention of TUM being in change of the TNI?

Good god people, stop nitpicking at each other's actions.

It's not helping.

So everyone, calm down and think this through.

For all of our sakes.

[Versail]

Would I be able to join as of now?

[Vedria]

Would I be able to join as of now?

We're, uh, going through some stuff right now.

[Versail]

Would I be able to join as of now?

We're, uh, going through some stuff right now.

What kind of Stuff?

[Vedria]

We're, uh, going through some stuff right now.

What kind of Stuff?

Major reorganization.

[The United Motherland]

We're, uh, going through some stuff right now.

What kind of Stuff?

You can join - although there is some minor turmoil and the such after the creation of the TNI just happened. Yet things may actually be smoothing out and I'm happy we can come to conclusions.

But is fine buddy.

[New Jordslag]

For the most part, I approve. However...



I did not point that one to you, I have although noticed some ex-commisionars and appointed government members to be really low on the bar for what they were assigned for. I won't point out specifics beacuse that would be clearly agitating - but I have seen some much.. lower than needed people assigned to things that they shouldn't be assigned to until they get a proper education or are never asigned to it at all.





Well, two things to this.


Then I will simply be unable to join the TNI. If the most powerful position is occupied by a person who is literally able to do whatever he wants without a chance of him losing control, then the TNI is not for me.


Sounds fair.



But that's the problem. Suppose we chose to not merge; if that happens, and your bill passes, then the UL will be crippled and we'll be forced to join you anyway. It's ludicrous.

Actually, having one unelected major position is really uncommon in major alliances. The IFC is Democratic as fuck, and SACTO has two Undemocratic Dictators. I simply will not tolerate non-elections for Executive Commisar. However, I do recognize the need for Non-Bureaucracy, so what if we allowed all members of the Alliance to vote on the Senate, then allowed the senate to vote on the Executive Commisar? Seems fair, right?

I might also point ou that you have no choice in this matter. URA gave his approval for your bill very conditionally, as did I. You have filled the conditions of neither of us, so at the moment, you only have Vedria's vote.

[New Jordslag]

For the most part, I approve. However...



I did not point that one to you, I have although noticed some ex-commisionars and appointed government members to be really low on the bar for what they were assigned for. I won't point out specifics beacuse that would be clearly agitating - but I have seen some much.. lower than needed people assigned to things that they shouldn't be assigned to until they get a proper education or are never asigned to it at all.





Well, two things to this.

1. The current provisional organizer, and by extent executive chairman(as a boji-like position back in our old days) is I. So yes, there may not be an elected position but the committe that is running the TNI and has been appointed currently stands for that until elections and the such.

2. Well if the people wanted you elected, and you by extent made a decision to not really keep you in elected power but make the TNI then I guess that was really the commissioners choices. To be honest though, as leftists it does not matter who will lead us - it only matters if we can thrive. If you succeed in the TNI elections hurrah for you, if not I guess the people didn't want you. Simple as that.


No.

Honestly my awnser is just no - I could easily make the alliance better without any merger but it would still help.



I can see your concerns and I appologize for some of the things that some people have said while I was gone(this happens a lot so you honestly have to wait for me to offically reply). But I am plotting out a very democratic charter at the moment(which I will start when my testing week ends) that has much more democracy including a proletarian council to house non-government members, a small representative senate, a vice-chairman, and the one non-democratic position, the executive commisionar. Which is really.. REALLY common. I mean 100% certain in all alliances.

Then I will simply be unable to join the TNI. If the most powerful position is occupied by a person who is literally able to do whatever he wants without a chance of him losing control, then the TNI is not for me.


Sounds fair.



But that's the problem. Suppose we chose to not merge; if that happens, and your bill passes, then the UL will be crippled and we'll be forced to join you anyway. It's ludicrous.




Actually, having one unelected major position is really uncommon in major alliances. The IFC is Democratic as fuck, and SACTO has two Undemocratic Dictators. I simply will not tolerate non-elections for Executive Commisar. However, I do recognize the need for Non-Bureaucracy, so what if we allowed all members of the Alliance to vote on the Senate, then allowed the senate to vote on the Executive Commisar? Seems fair, right?

I might also point out that you have no choice in this matter. URA gave his approval for your bill very conditionally, as did I. You have filled the conditions of neither of us, so at the moment, you only have Vedria's vote.

[North Yemen-]

...non-democratic position, the executive commisionar.

Nope nope nope.

[The United Motherland]

...non-democratic position, the executive commisionar.

Nope nope nope.

you know I love it how you guys have no idea that there is actually a dictator like that at the top of the UL.

And on the IFC.

And on SACTO.

So sorry for not conceding to something that hasn't been tried and would be really risky saying we need a central organizer.

[The United Motherland]

Then I will simply be unable to join the TNI. If the most powerful position is occupied by a person who is literally able to do whatever he wants without a chance of him losing control, then the TNI is not for me.


Sounds fair.



But that's the problem. Suppose we chose to not merge; if that happens, and your bill passes, then the UL will be crippled and we'll be forced to join you anyway. It's ludicrous.




Actually, having one unelected major position is really uncommon in major alliances. The IFC is Democratic as fuck, and SACTO has two Undemocratic Dictators. I simply will not tolerate non-elections for Executive Commisar. However, I do recognize the need for Non-Bureaucracy, so what if we allowed all members of the Alliance to vote on the Senate, then allowed the senate to vote on the Executive Commisar? Seems fair, right?

I might also point out that you have no choice in this matter. URA gave his approval for your bill very conditionally, as did I. You have filled the conditions of neither of us, so at the moment, you only have Vedria's vote.

Well technically the bill has already passed.

But I mean the IFC has one. Bratislav - and he did his job as well "dictator" of the IFC for a long time.

SACTO is strage beacuse it has a very.. Commune-like personality with it's people so it dosn't really NEED it. Clearly, by having this argument, we do not have that commune-like mentality.

[New Jordslag]

Then I will simply be unable to join the TNI. If the most powerful position is occupied by a person who is literally able to do whatever he wants without a chance of him losing control, then the TNI is not for me.


Sounds fair.



But that's the problem. Suppose we chose to not merge; if that happens, and your bill passes, then the UL will be crippled and we'll be forced to join you anyway. It's ludicrous.




Actually, having one unelected major position is really uncommon in major alliances. The IFC is Democratic as fuck, and SACTO has two Undemocratic Dictators. I simply will not tolerate non-elections for Executive Commisar. However, I do recognize the need for Non-Bureaucracy, so what if we allowed all members of the Alliance to vote on the Senate, then allowed the senate to vote on the Executive Commisar? Seems fair, right?

I might also point out that you have no choice in this matter. URA gave his approval for your bill very conditionally, as did I. You have filled the conditions of neither of us, so at the moment, you only have Vedria's vote.

Well technically the bill has already passed.

But I mean the IFC has one. Bratislav - and he did his job as well "dictator" of the IFC for a long time.

SACTO is strage beacuse it has a very.. Commune-like personality with it's people so it dosn't really NEED it. Clearly, by having this argument, we do not have that commune-like mentality.

Bratislav was not a Dictator. He was elected, then elected again, and again. Which does seem awfully suspicious, but those were the results of the elections.

No, the bill has not passed. URA has said that he has conditions for accepting your bill, which you have not fulfilled. Until such time you fulfill his conditions, his answer is a no. If you want, I can drag up evidence. So until you fix your bill, it simply will not pass.

[The United Motherland]

Well technically the bill has already passed.

But I mean the IFC has one. Bratislav - and he did his job as well "dictator" of the IFC for a long time.

SACTO is strage beacuse it has a very.. Commune-like personality with it's people so it dosn't really NEED it. Clearly, by having this argument, we do not have that commune-like mentality.

Bratislav was not a Dictator. He was elected, then elected again, and again. Which does seem awfully suspicious, but those were the results of the elections.

No, the bill has not passed. URA has said that he has conditions for accepting your bill, which you have not fulfilled. Until such time you fulfill his conditions, his answer is a no. If you want, I can drag up evidence. So until you fix your bill, it simply will not pass.

Brat has not been elected. He is executive head. There is no choice on the ballots(execpt maybe recently I haven't seen) if people want to go into his position. Thus, dictatorship.

We have an executive head to.

The bill is passed - I will ask URA and from his wording it could go both ways.

But, there is physically nothing to concede to. If you wish to get rid of Boji so you no longer have a undemocratic head of command.. Then do so. This is simply a precuation for unity and organization - it is used all around and has been. This full-democratic idea will ultimately fail because we do not really have.. enough ability to use it and actually succeed.

If you want to join a no central leadership alliance... There are none, because the last one that was tried.. The ICON.. Well...

[New Jordslag]

Bratislav was not a Dictator. He was elected, then elected again, and again. Which does seem awfully suspicious, but those were the results of the elections.

No, the bill has not passed. URA has said that he has conditions for accepting your bill, which you have not fulfilled. Until such time you fulfill his conditions, his answer is a no. If you want, I can drag up evidence. So until you fix your bill, it simply will not pass.

Brat has not been elected. He is executive head. There is no choice on the ballots(execpt maybe recently I haven't seen) if people want to go into his position. Thus, dictatorship.

We have an executive head to.

The bill is passed - I will ask URA and from his wording it could go both ways.

But, there is physically nothing to concede to. If you wish to get rid of Boji so you no longer have a undemocratic head of command.. Then do so. This is simply a precuation for unity and organization - it is used all around and has been. This full-democratic idea will ultimately fail because we do not really have.. enough ability to use it and actually succeed.

If you want to join a no central leadership alliance... There are none, because the last one that was tried.. The ICON.. Well...

Fair enough. Think what you will of the IFC.

But as for URA, he admitted he only said yes conditionally in the SACTO OOC thread. Here, here's what he posted.

*Sigh*

I said I'd agree for now, but I want it to develop and I want it to be worked on.

His conditions have been listed in the UL OOC thread.

We actually do have ability to use it, as we have tried it out in the UL Thread, and it briefly showed signs of working- until everybody started arguing over your bill. We quickly set up a Missile Defense system and QRF. We started reforms. The Democratic idea can work, and it is far better than a total Dictatorship. Because people simply feel more incentive to join an organization that they have a chance of gaining real power in. Besides, I did propose to you an idea of representative Democracy, where the people elected the Senate, and the Senate chose one of the Commisars to be the next Executive Commisars. A completely fair system, no? Anybody can be elected to the Commisars or Senate. But only the Commisars can become Executive Commisar, and only the Senate has the power to choose the Executive Commisar. Not Direct Democracy, but still entirely fair.

[New Aeyariss]

NOTE to Jordslag: SACTO has triumvirate in charge:

- Caesar ( Cuscy)
- Pompeius ( Riysa )
- Krassus (Quirina)