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by The Royally United Provinces » Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:50 am
by Slavsnik » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:04 am
"Being an Important Person is Good, But being a Good Person is even more Important"
by Common Territories » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:57 am
by Stormwrath » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:04 pm
by Zunkwentania » Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:05 pm
Deian salazar wrote:Common Territories wrote:I saw two pages ago you guys were confused about what a federation and what the US government system is. So let me tell you it now.
1: A Federation is system of governance with states uniting for a single cause; for example, the Holy Roman Empire was a federation of states under an elected emperor. You CAN label the US as one if you like, but I dislike it because it doesn't share what I think a proper federation is; rather, it is federalized with a federal government and constitution. But that's besides the point.
2. "Its like a USA where every "state" governs itself (Like a feudal kingdom), and the Federal government holds no power over a nation's laws. In the MF, if laws conflict: National laws trumps Federal laws."
States do govern themselves as they posses some sovereignty; they have their own constitutions, elected body of chosen governance, and even posses (technically) their own armed services. But the Constitution distinctly lists out what a state can do, could do, and history has shown what they can't do - US governance is complicated between the three branches and state history. Now, comparing the US to Feudalism is completely wrong. Unless I missed it where soldiers roamed around fighting other states, states were controlled by nobles, and we had such a loose system - I do believe the US is not a Feudalistic kingdom (Kingdoms having kings im pretty sure too, as well as little freedoms).
In the US, Federal Law holds Supremacy over all others; this is laid out in the Supremacy Clause. Federal laws will always trump state laws, treaties, and other agreements. Now from what I see here, you decided to form the MF not as an alliance but a Federal presidential constitutional republic (like the US) or something like it. Now, I don't know what they idea behind your alli... federation is, but the way you have it here means you are ALL the same nation and every member state is, well, a federal state. I don't know if you Deian are the residing president, main nation, or whatever - but to me, it looks like you made yourself an empire out of your member states here since they all technically belong together as a unified nation that you run as the Supreme Commander. Also "National Laws", which I assume means state laws, do not trump federal laws in the US; though I suppose that is up to you to decide since it's a system of governance you can modify.
Nice imperialism bro
Look, I'm a poor explainer. I did my best, and what I used as examples weren't word-for-word. I tried using well-known examples to make it understandable, and I understand I slipped up and caused misconceptions about what I was trying to say, or flat-up screwed up and said the wrong thing, making it false so thus not being clear, and I do this often, but it's simply a problem I have partially due to Autism partially due to myself and some due to other things that I could list and some things I don't know. I tried explaining the best I could and I understand if I was wrong and/or made errors, but again I may be explaining inaccurately and I often do my best but fail utterly to explain it in the way that I mean it, and I'm trying to overcome this, but it'll take time. I've caused misconceptions before and you're not the only one, but those conceptions lie in my inability to explain clearly.
And the name Federation is purely symbolic, and if I remember right me and Derita were tossing around names until wegot to Monarchist Federation. It seemed unique, cool, and orginal, so we went with it.
Please don't assume we're some way just because of a name, like Christians do when they think of Satanism (See my posts in the now locked NSG thread about Satanism to see what I mean), because it's stereotypical and is reliant on one meaning of the word, and sometimes the word is just there to be a nifty title, like "Superman". He isn't "Super", he's a freaky powerful alien from Krypton(I think), and isn't a man. Same with Batman. He ain't a bat.
I hoped I cleared this up, and if I didn't then I ask someone else to explain it better since I'm poor at explanations.
If you think I'm simply being cowardly and doing it because I'm "defeated" or "unmasked", just ask my friends that know me well. They can vouch for my inability to explain well, as I've explained poorly in other situations that many may remember, and thus they know that I have a hard time.
Though I'm working on improving my explanation skill, it won't happen magically, and will happen over time.
Until then, I think I should stay out explaining things...
by Elesar » Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:56 pm
by Aigeantir » Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:19 pm
Deian salazar wrote:Also, the "UN" technically isn't united anymore as there are wars literally everywhere.
by Stormwrath » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:49 pm
Deian salazar wrote:Stormwrath wrote:Although, I see a point in TECT's explanation. Note that Stormwrathians cherish their national sovereignty very much.
Look, everyone's Sovereign, I wasn't discussing Sovereignty with most my comparison, I was explaining the role of each nation and the overall place.
They are independent and have all the stuff of a nation, with no limits on military size if it's economically reasonable, and they govern themselves completely internally, but in Federal affairs, it comes down to a State-like role in the Voting and Senate, but still own laws and everything a sovereign nation has. There are minor differences yes, such as the class/rank system, but that's roughly it.
Have I satisfied everyone with my explanation now?
Because I also want to do 2 things:
First Storm, a question: Are you writing the unfinished articles?
Btw you may want to paste what I wrote when I edited it in the correct areas. Just tell me when you're finished with the Constitution, and I'll read it and edit what needs to be edited. That good?
2: I think it's high time we made a Council thread, where resolutions are made and passed and usually don't infringe on a nation's affairs, but are mostly condemnations, commendations, proposals like diplomatic agreement ideas, campaign proposals, and other typical resolutions in International organisations.
Though there will be a thing called "Recommended laws" where it's a law that the Federation's majority officially supports and recommends to nations, Monarchist Federation or not.
Is this agreeable?
by Zunkwentania » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:23 am
Deian salazar wrote:Elesar wrote:Ok Deian, first off, the PRC isn't an actual communist country. Due to tons of reforms that took place after Mao's death, you could probably classify China as being more socialist. Definitely not capitalist under a red flag, though. I don't kniw what history books you've been reading, but if that's what you believe then they've been wrong.
And the UN IS united. Do some actual research. I realise you're young, but still. I knew these things when I was your age. No hard feelings, alright?
Ah Socialism, that was the word I was looking for.
Yes, they've reformed quite a lot, but I couldn't remember the exact system, so I just put in the closest synonym I could, which while inaccurate, was the closest I could think of.
And the UN is united yes, but I mean in mutual interests they're kinda divided, but on very specific issues, most of which aren't present, but when issues DO come up, they have been more divided then they have been in the past on opinions, from what I've read and researched online, from my neighborhood library, school library, and general news while isn't accurate, they do say the truth on what other countries voted on in the UN because if I recall correctly, they're legally bound to that as that is a straight up lie, but again, media, so it may be wrong.
Still, the UN is united mostly, but I said technically, and I meant in certain areas.
They aren't collapsing mind you, nor completely divided, but research from .Gov(Also according to books and my teacher who loves politics and hates the media) sites showed that the UN has been a bit more divided in more recent years in opinions of how to react.
And give that enough time and/or the right situation, and BAM! Collapse.
I doubt it'll collapse, but it just currently seems a bit divided and needs to get it's act together as the UN is seeing less and less nations follow it's plans, and that needs to be solved in a reasonable time period before it becomes a problem rather than minor nuisance.
by Zunkwentania » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:25 am
by New Chilokver » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:34 am
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by Zunkwentania » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:59 pm
Deian salazar wrote:
You could be a Vassal state, which is between member and observer.
The Vassal state program isn't like a normal "Surrender" and you are not a province of the MF, you are independant but have a MF Viceroy from a chosen nation watching over your nation and making sure you don't do stuff that conflicts with MF interests, and you have a small military protecting your nation from a few MF volunteer nations or, if no one volunteers, an assigned or requested person either assigned/requested from the MF government, or requested by yourself.
Though to keep it legitimate, you do have to pay 1/100 your budget to the MF which will go to the MF treasury, and that shouldn't weaken your nation too much.
Alternatively, you could give us a different type of payment for protecting you and recognizing you as a Vassal of the MF.
You can hold CERTAIN government positions, but cannot vote on most things, but sometimes on really big issues you can. And you can be any type of government(Except if you're tyrannical and cruel) and be a Vassal state.
Interested, or will you stick with observer?
by Zunkwentania » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:04 pm
Deian salazar wrote:Zunkwentania wrote:Excuse me? A viceroy watching over your government? That's unacceptable to most any government.
No, not like that.
They just watch important declarations and speaks the MF's opinion of the situation. More of a speaker if you will, but he also commands the armies protecting your nation as well. He only ensures that diplomatic disasters between the MF and the nation do not occur by offering advice and his opinions on matters that may concern the MF.
by New Roma Republic » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:12 pm
by Aeyariss » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:22 pm
Deian salazar wrote:Alternatively, you could give us a different type of payment for protecting you and recognizing you as a Vassal of the MF.
Interested, or will you stick with observer?
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by Viridisolum » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:58 pm
Deian salazar wrote:
You could be a Vassal state, which is between member and observer.
The Vassal state program isn't like a normal "Surrender" and you are not a province of the MF, you are independant but have a MF Viceroy from a chosen nation watching over your nation and making sure you don't do stuff that conflicts with MF interests, and you have a small military protecting your nation from a few MF volunteer nations or, if no one volunteers, an assigned or requested person either assigned/requested from the MF government, or requested by yourself.
Though to keep it legitimate, you do have to pay 1/100 your budget to the MF which will go to the MF treasury, and that shouldn't weaken your nation too much.
Alternatively, you could give us a different type of payment for protecting you and recognizing you as a Vassal of the MF.
You can hold CERTAIN government positions, but cannot vote on most things, but sometimes on really big issues you can. And you can be any type of government(Except if you're tyrannical and cruel) and be a Vassal state.
Interested, or will you stick with observer?
by Viridisolum » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:03 pm
Zunkwentania wrote:Deian salazar wrote:No, not like that.
They just watch important declarations and speaks the MF's opinion of the situation. More of a speaker if you will, but he also commands the armies protecting your nation as well. He only ensures that diplomatic disasters between the MF and the nation do not occur by offering advice and his opinions on matters that may concern the MF.
That's more reasonable.
by Viridisolum » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:23 pm
Deian salazar wrote:Viridisolum wrote:But a viceroy refers to the representative of a monarch in his or her territory. Then wouldn't it be enforcing a de facto head of state upon Chilo and some sort of suzerainty.
No, the Viceroy really only gives the MF's and his opinion on state matters needing the MF's opinion which usually concerns the MF in some way, and tries to ensure that nation doesn't complicate things between the MF and a group or other situation that the MF should be concerned about, to ensure the MF doesn't get into difficult situations as much as possible to ensure the MF's prosperity. While at times his opinion may be ignored and when it happens, the MF will do the best possible course of action. In extreme cases the Vassal state may be invaded and/or kicked out of the MF if it continually puts the MF into difficult situations or it does a move that puts the MF in an extremely difficult position if they do not at the least condemn the nation's actions and stay neutral. The Viceroy's only other ability is to control the military in the nation that the MF sent to aid the nation's national military and protect the nation unless the MF orders him to withdraw from the nation, and the most a Viceroy can have depends on the vassal state, as each is treated individually and wen do our best to procure the best options for both the vassal state and the MF. Usually even if the MF declares war on the nation if they messed up, he is ordered to withdraw so we can show others that the sent military forces will only protect them, and will not be used against them. However, in an extreme case, and I mean like WW2 extreme case(s), it will be used to attack them from the inside to secure a necessary victory, but this approach is avoided as much as possible to make the nations not have to fear the MF's protecting forces and thus never consider the vassal position.
So all in all, the Viceroy only expresses the MF's opinions in a discussion and/or debate and commands the military protecting the vassal state, but withdraws if things go sour, unless it's one of the most extreme cases possible, in which he is forced to attack the nation.
It's not a perfect system, but it's the best possible system, as the MF strides to do the best possible and to be seen as a reliable shield, but knows what to do in a complex situation that includes members and/or vassal states, even if it means betrayal of said nation(s). In such a case, the MF will hold a annual memorial day that is not for each individual nation that the MF was forced to abandon, but one set day as a deep apology, and there will be old symbols of the nations that were taken and then displayed as an apology, or if symbols are insulting to take from them, then we make replicas. It's like Memorial day. Maybe the MF won't do it, but Feng will. It's every January 24th.
by Aigeantir » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:24 pm
Viridisolum wrote:Zunkwentania wrote:That's more reasonable.
I suggest, since you were a former colonial possession of Valaran, to make his emperor as your country's ceremonial head of state. He can only be described as the chief of state and nothing further. Similar to Papua New Guinea where they don't refer to Queen Elizabeth II as their monarch but as their chief of state.
by Viridisolum » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:25 pm
Deian salazar wrote:Viridisolum wrote:I suggest, since you were a former colonial possession of Valaran, to make his emperor as your country's ceremonial head of state. He can only be described as the chief of state and nothing further. Similar to Papua New Guinea where they don't refer to Queen Elizabeth II as their monarch but as their chief of state.
Mebbe if Zunk wishes...
Anyway in any case, I'm trying to ensure the best possible choices for a nation that's a vassal state.
Same thing for members, the best possible thing.
I strive to do the best thing, and I am committed to doing my best for the MF and it's people, and to do the best possible thing for them.
by Viridisolum » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:26 pm
Aigeantir wrote:Viridisolum wrote:I suggest, since you were a former colonial possession of Valaran, to make his emperor as your country's ceremonial head of state. He can only be described as the chief of state and nothing further. Similar to Papua New Guinea where they don't refer to Queen Elizabeth II as their monarch but as their chief of state.
Well since I'm hoping to pop up as a neighbour next door to New Chilokver in the near future, perhaps I could volunteer to be this ceremonial head of state, why not? (V) (;,,;) (V)
by Elesar » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:29 pm
Deian salazar wrote:Viridisolum wrote:I suggest, since you were a former colonial possession of Valaran, to make his emperor as your country's ceremonial head of state. He can only be described as the chief of state and nothing further. Similar to Papua New Guinea where they don't refer to Queen Elizabeth II as their monarch but as their chief of state.
Mebbe if Zunk wishes...
Anyway in any case, I'm trying to ensure the best possible choices for a nation that's a vassal state.
Same thing for members, the best possible thing.
I strive to do the best thing, and I am committed to doing my best for the MF and it's people, and to do the best possible thing for them.
by Viridisolum » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:29 pm
Deian salazar wrote:Viridisolum wrote:I don't like this concept. It's politically intrusive.
I also suggest to Chilo the same as I've said to Zunkwentia.
Well, then, what do you propose?
It's meant to be a halfway system and allows the MF to protect them and offer their advice and their interests in specific situations, like big inter-alliance wars, economic crises(In which the MF tries to economically stabilize it and offers advice as well as sending aid), and situations which I may not remember at the moment, while trying to help the nation as much as possible but ensure the MF is in danger as least as possible with their decisions.
by Zunkwentania » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:35 pm
Viridisolum wrote:Zunkwentania wrote:That's more reasonable.
I suggest, since you were a former colonial possession of Valaran, to make his emperor as your country's ceremonial head of state. He can only be described as the chief of state and nothing further. Similar to Papua New Guinea where they don't refer to Queen Elizabeth II as their monarch but as their chief of state.
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