The United Left (OOC/SIGNUPS/2.0)

[Vedria]

But, why do we need to call the Axis? It shows weakness, in my opinion.

Not to mention it would end up being used as a propaganda material to us against communist.

Imagine these head lines; United Left Betrayed Communism By Working With Capitalist to Attack Fellow Socialist!

or

Axis Forces Coming In To Rescue United Left!

You guys aren't that desperate. Involving us would only end up discrediting UL.

But this thing, is interesting but strange in the same time. We will continue to observe, as always.

My point exactly.

[The United Motherland]

Not to mention it would end up being used as a propaganda material to us against communist.

Imagine these head lines; United Left Betrayed Communism By Working With Capitalist to Attack Fellow Socialist!

or

Axis Forces Coming In To Rescue United Left!

You guys aren't that desperate. Involving us would only end up discrediting UL.

But this thing, is interesting but strange in the same time. We will continue to observe, as always.

My point exactly.

You might as well observe then.

Enjoy the show - we appreciate your consideration.

[Vedria]

Ok then, now that Axis involvement has been eliminated (which is what I understood from Sabah's posts), shall we begin drawing up warplans?

[Bojikami]

Ok then, now that Axis involvement has been eliminated (which is what I understood from Sabah's posts), shall we begin drawing up warplans?

Indeed.

[The United Motherland]

Ok then, now that Axis involvement has been eliminated (which is what I understood from Sabah's posts), shall we begin drawing up warplans?

Indeed.

Viva la UL!

[Bojikami]

Indeed.

Viva la UL!

Смерть фашистской пакта!

[Vedria]

Indeed.

Viva la UL!

Long live the UL! Long live Socialism!

Now, where shall we discuss it? I gather in the IRC?

[Asigna]

Long live the UL! Long live Socialism!

1991 was the last breath of socialism. That is all.

*Bow*

[Bojikami]

Viva la UL!

Long live the UL! Long live Socialism!

Now, where shall we discuss it? I gather in the IRC?

Yes.

[The United Motherland]

Long live the UL! Long live Socialism!

1991 was the last breath of socialism. That is all.

*Bow*

Well, by that you mean corrupt socialism. >->

Really, in all truth, Socialism has been abused a lot.

[Vedria]

Long live the UL! Long live Socialism!

1991 was the last breath of socialism. That is all.

*Bow*

1991 was the last breath of the Soviet Union.

A nation may fall, but the idea behind it never will.

[Asigna]

Well, by that you mean corrupt socialism. >->

Really, in all truth, Socialism has been abused a lot.

Socialism is a job that shouldn't be entrusted on humanity, for humanity is imperfect. We ought not to do things that are purely impossible. What makes you think you won't corrupt socialism as well?

1991 was the last breath of socialism. That is all.

*Bow*

1991 was the last breath of the Soviet Union.

A nation may fall, but the idea behind it never will.

The idea that has no absolute prominence in today's world. Even China resorted to capitalism once they realized their own nation flunked under socialism. Socialism only brings stagnation in society. It bars progress. It leads a nation to nothing but the way of militarization, gulags and other political abuses.

Need i not mention the so many deaths that were sustained under socialist regimes. People purposely killed in the name of socialism?

[The United Motherland]

Well, by that you mean corrupt socialism. >->

Really, in all truth, Socialism has been abused a lot.

Socialism is a job that shouldn't be entrusted on humanity, for humanity is imperfect. We ought not to do things that are purely impossible. What makes you think you won't corrupt socialism as well?

1991 was the last breath of the Soviet Union.

A nation may fall, but the idea behind it never will.

The idea that has no absolute prominence in today's world. Even China resorted to capitalism once they realized their own nation flunked under socialism. Socialism only brings stagnation in society. It bars progress. It leads a nation to nothing but the way of militarization, gulags and other political abuses.

Need i not mention the so many deaths that were sustained under socialist regimes. People purposely killed in the name of socialism?

You could say the same thing about democracy, Asigna. Which happens, a lot.

But that is why I made Convism. Socialism is good, but it is not perfect, which I would like to achieve one day. (Although it may never happen - it is one step further)

[Vedria]

Well, by that you mean corrupt socialism. >->

Really, in all truth, Socialism has been abused a lot.

Socialism is a job that shouldn't be entrusted on humanity, for humanity is imperfect. We ought not to do things that are purely impossible. What makes you think you won't corrupt socialism as well?

1991 was the last breath of the Soviet Union.

A nation may fall, but the idea behind it never will.

The idea that has no absolute prominence in today's world. Even China resorted to capitalism once they realized their own nation flunked under socialism. Socialism only brings stagnation in society. It bars progress. It leads a nation to nothing but the way of militarization, gulags and other political abuses.

Need i not mention the so many deaths that were sustained under socialist regimes. People purposely killed in the name of socialism?

Well. 1945 was the last breath of fascism. Why are you still here? Is your system not flawed as well?

[The United Motherland]

Socialism is a job that shouldn't be entrusted on humanity, for humanity is imperfect. We ought not to do things that are purely impossible. What makes you think you won't corrupt socialism as well?




The idea that has no absolute prominence in today's world. Even China resorted to capitalism once they realized their own nation flunked under socialism. Socialism only brings stagnation in society. It bars progress. It leads a nation to nothing but the way of militarization, gulags and other political abuses.

Need i not mention the so many deaths that were sustained under socialist regimes. People purposely killed in the name of socialism?

You could say the same thing about democracy, Asigna. Which happens, a lot.

But that is why I made Convism. Socialism is good, but it is not perfect, which I would like to achieve one day. (Although it may never happen - it is one step further)

*Also, a lot of pepole had never killed in the name of socialism, same thing with atheism.

[Asigna]

Well. 1945 was the last breath of fascism. Why are you still here? Is your system not flawed as well?

Why the hell does everyone accuse me of fascism? (Really, i am simply a nationalist, i don't support fascism) And disclaimer, we aren't fascist. We are simply united in hatred against communism be our members democratic, Islamist or so on.

*Also, a lot of pepole had never killed in the name of socialism, same thing with atheism.

The opposite applies. Chuches closed, priests executed, holodomor (a famine resulted from mismanagement of socialism due to it being unfit for economy) and many more!

[Bojikami]

I see it like this. Communism (A classless, stateless, moneyless society) is a goal. Democratic Socialism is Communism applied realistically.

[The United Motherland]

Well. 1945 was the last breath of fascism. Why are you still here? Is your system not flawed as well?

Why the hell does everyone accuse me of fascism? (Really, i am simply a nationalist, i don't support fascism) And disclaimer, we aren't fascist. We are simply united in hatred against communism be our members democratic, Islamist or so on.

*Also, a lot of pepole had never killed in the name of socialism, same thing with atheism.

The opposite applies. Chuches closed, priests executed, holodomor (a famine resulted from mismanagement of socialism due to it being unfit for economy) and many more!

So, both sides contribute to death?

You know there is actually good, non-killing socialists out there?

Ya-Know... Those that are actually more modern ones?

[Bojikami]

Why the hell does everyone accuse me of fascism? (Really, i am simply a nationalist, i don't support fascism) And disclaimer, we aren't fascist. We are simply united in hatred against communism be our members democratic, Islamist or so on.



The opposite applies. Chuches closed, priests executed, holodomor (a famine resulted from mismanagement of socialism due to it being unfit for economy) and many more!

So, both sides contribute to death?

You know there is actually good, non-killing socialists out there?

Ya-Know... Those that are actually more modern ones?

All of Scandinavia.

[The United Motherland]

So, I'm going to turn off my replies as I work on a Newspaper report.

TG me if you need anything.

[The United Motherland]

http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=6456398

^Real Military Techniques^

[Ardoki]

Has the war started yet?

[Vedria]

http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=6456398

^Real Military Techniques^

Has the war started yet?

We're gearing up for that eventuality.

[Virosis]

Wait, what war? I want a war!

[Ardoki]

Socialism is a job that shouldn't be entrusted on humanity, for humanity is imperfect. We ought not to do things that are purely impossible. What makes you think you won't corrupt socialism as well?

Yes, humanity is imperfect. However socialism was never designed to be used for a perfect humanity. Comrade Marx even expected that humans would behave as least altruistic as possible when devising his theories and works. Socialism can work, and has technically worked quite well in the places where it was implemented, i.e. the Paris Commune and the anarcho-communist societies in Spain during the Spanish Civil War. Even under the Soviet Union (which was not fully socialist) the living standard rose dramatically from where it had been under the Tsar, the average life expectancy was increased 30 years in just 20 years, one of the highest literacy rates in the world was established by World War II, a brilliant universal healthcare system, higher wages and a generally higher living standard. Let us not forget the quasi-socialist Soviet Union however, the Soviet Union was transformed from an incredibly backward agrarian nation, into a scientific and industrial superpower. In about 30 years of its founding, the USSR was the first to send an object (the satellite Sputnik I) into outer space, Sputnik II carrying a dog Laika was sent up later that same year. Yuri Gagarin was the first man in outer space in 1961, with Valentina Tereshkova, the first women in outer space being sent up just two years later. The USSR dominated the space race, it beat the USA in almost every field. However the USSR was advanced in many other areas aside from space, they even started to build their own hadron collider, however funding was canceled after the USSR fell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Space_Race

Under the Tsar, over 80% of the people of Russia were lowly rural peasants who suffered from poverty comparable to modern day Sub-Saharan Africa (for proof read the works of Tolstoy as well as a range of historical sources), the people of Russia did not have it good under the Tsar, it was horrible for the vast majority of people (stop making up historically incorrect lies Asigna!) and the Soviet Union was dozens of times better. You anti-communists attack the Soviet Union for its lack of political and civil rights, yet you praise the Tsar. The Russian Empire was no better in the fields of political and civil rights then the USSR was, in fact the Russian Empire was actually far worse.

Furthermore, life was actually better in the Soviet Union than it is in the Russian Federation, especially in the 90s but still so today (my father left Russia in the 90s due to the damage of capitalism). In fact, in a recent opinion poll, 60% of Russians want the old Soviet system back, while only 7% had a negative view of the Soviet Union.

http://www.systemiccapital.com/60-percent-of-russians-want-communism-back/

The idea that has no absolute prominence in today's world. Even China resorted to capitalism once they realized their own nation flunked under socialism. Socialism only brings stagnation in society. It bars progress.

According to the Chinese government they wish to follow Marx's theory and establish capitalism before transitioning to socialism (I personally don't think this is likely to happen though, one capitalism is established, it stays around like a scar, unless radical steps (which I don't think China will take again) are taken). This is far more correct to Marxism than Maoism or even Leninism is, both those countries tried to go from feudalism straight to socialism and it didn't work out as planned. Mao was even sillier, he thought that socialism could be based upon peasants, that entirely contradicts Marxism, which says that the city workers will carry out the revolution and be the backbone of the new society.

Socialism does not bring stagnation into society. It does not bar progress. I would really like to see your evidence for those accusations. Socialism in fact brings progress and innovation, it gives the worker an incentive to work harder and better, they receive themselves the profits of the work they do, that would make them wish to work as best as possible. Under capitalism however, the worker has no real incentive to work to the best of their ability. Under capitalism the worker will only work as much as they have to, in order to receive their standard pay which is not the full value of their labour. An example of this can be seen in the Anarcho-communist societies in Spain during the Spanish civil war.

It is appropriate to note at this point that the myth, widely disseminated by the current sociological literature on the subject, that agrarian anarchism in Spain was anti-technological in spirit and atavistically sought to restore a neolithic “Golden Age” can be quite effectively refuted by a close study of the unique educational role played by the anarchists. Indeed, it was the anarchists, with inexpensive, simply written brochures, who brought the French enlightenment and modern scientific theory to the peasantry, not the arrogant liberals or the disdainful Socialists. Together with pamphlets on Bakunin and Kropotkin, the anarchist press published simple accounts of the theories of natural and social evolution and elementary introductions to the secular culture of Europe. They tried to instruct the peasants in advanced techniques of land management and earnestly favored the use of agricultural machinery to lighten the burdens of toil and provide more leisure for self-development. Far from being an atavistic trend in Spanish society, as Hobsbawm (in his Primitive Rebels) and even Brenan would have us believe, I can say with certainty from a careful review of the issue that anarchism more closely approximated a radical popular enlightenment.

In a short time the factory turned out opera glasses, telemeters, binoculars, surveying instruments, industrial glassware in different colors, and certain scientific instruments. It also manufactured and repaired optical equipment for the fighting fronts. (The workers presented Buenaventura Durruti with a special set of field glasses.) Another achievement was the opening of a new, up-to-date optical school... The workers had every reason to be proud of these achievements. What private capitalists failed to do was accomplished by the creative capacity of the members of the Optical Workers’ Union of the CNT.

The alternative economic system is collectivism--or a socialism established by the people themselves without state interference. To an astonishing degree this ideal was being realized in Spain. Within a few years, during the Spanish Civil War, the Spanish workers and peasants were establishing what could be loosely called libertarian syndicalist socialism, a system without exploitation and injustice. In this type of libertarian collectivist economy, wage slavery is replaced by the equitable and just sharing of labor. Private capitalism or state capitalism is replaced by the workers’ factory council, the union, and the industrial association of unions up to the national federation of industrial unions

The Spanish syndicalists demonstrated that such a system is practical. Libertarian collectivism preserves and widens freedom, stimulates and encourages initiative, and smooths the way for progress. A syndicalist collective economy is not state planned or state dominated. Planning is directed to satisfy the consumer. The syndicalist collective is for the producer what the consumer’s cooperative association is for the consumer.

The collectives organized during the Spanish Civil War were workers’ economic associations without private property. The fact that collective plants were managed by those who worked in them did not mean that these establishments became their private property. The collective had no right to sell or rent all or any part of the collectivised factory or workshop. The rightful custodian was the CNT, the National Confederation of Workers Associations. But not even the CNT had the right to do as it pleased. Everything had to be decided and ratified by the workers themselves through conferences and congresses.

The new order was flexible. The factory or plant was operated by the workers, but they did not resemble Fourier’s “Phalansteries” or the “national workshops” in Louis Blanc’s sense. The collectives were an attempt to organize work on the basis of solidarity and mutual aid: to organize the economy through the organization of mutual credit without interest in a manner somewhat similar to Proudhon’s Mutual Credit Banks. Nor did the syndicalist collective economy resemble the “free enterprise” system. There is no connection whatever between an economy based on workers’ control, mutual aid, and self-management and a capitalist economy with its unrestrained exploitation and cutthroat competition.

The syndicalist economic structure was firmly established in a few years. The plants were managed by the workers themselves through managers chosen by them. Problems beyond the capacity of the single plant were tackled by the local Economic Council ... On August 28, 1937, one year after the beginning of collectivization, an economic congress of the Catalonian collectives was held in Barcelona. Shortly after, a national economic congress embracing all urban and agrarian collectives and all socialized industry was held in Valencia. How the Barcelona Congress dealt with problems illustrates the character of the new economic structure. Several examples:

1. The collectivized shoe factories need credit of 2,000,000 pesetas. They have always paid the workers full wages, but because of a leather shortage they have been forced to cut down working time. In spite of this, they are paying 500 workers full weekly wages without deductions for lost time. The Economic Council studied the condition of the shoe industry. It reports that there is no surplus of shoes. Granting of credit will enable the purchase of leather and the modernization of a number of outdated factories which will result in lower costs and lower prices, and with it increased consumption. The reorganized and rehabilitated industry will then be able to help other industries in need of assistance. Acting on this favorable report, credit is granted.

2. There are no aluminum factories in Catalonia. The aluminum factory located in Huesca is in fascist hands. To carry on the war, aluminum is crucially needed. The Economic Council, with the cooperation of chemists, engineers, and technicians, work out plans to build a new aluminum factory. Water power, electricity, coal, and bauxite are available. The Economic Council also submits a plan to finance the installation. Money is to be raised through the collectivized plants, the socialized industries, and from the union. The issuing of stocks and bonds is not recommended because it would lead to the restoration of capitalism. Capitalism, ejected from the door, would climb back in through the window...

3. The Barcelona Economic Council, to mitigate unemployment in the cities, worked out a plan with the cooperation of the agricultural workers union to bring new areas into cultivation (irrigation, fertilizers, new installations, etc.). Unemployment in the cities was appreciably reduced, while needed labor from the cities was supplied to modernize agriculture. Russian state capitalism solved such problems by forced labor, herding many workers (at least 2,000,000) into concentration camps. Libertarians viewed such means with repugnance. The Spanish libertarian collectives have proven that compulsory labor is counterproductive and totally unnecessary. The unemployed worker did not have to be forced to work in the country. He was, on the contrary, welcomed on equal terms as a brother worker engaged in a common cooperative enterprise, sharing both the burdens and rewards of his fellow workers.

4. How were such vast, complex, and costly operations financed and coordinated? The workers helped each other. Isolated enterprises were financial pygmies. With all the collectivized factories and establishments working and pooling their resources together, they were giants. The finances of all the collectivized plants, the socialized industries, and the unions were deposited in the Central Labor Bank in Barcelona, with branches everywhere. The bank channelled funds from more prosperous collectives to less prosperous collectives in need of credit. Cash transactions were reduced to an absolute minimum. Credit was not given in cash. The bank balanced accounts between collectives and arranged credit where needed not in cash but in exchange for products or services.

The Bank of Labor also arranged foreign exchange and importation and purchase of raw materials and other products. As in domestic transactions, payment was made (where possible) in commodities, not in cash. All important operations of the Labor Bank were reviewed, and policies set, at union congresses. Finally, the Labor Bank was not a capitalist bank in business to make money by usury. It served as a coordinating agency and charged only 1% interest to defray expenses.

These are just a very small selection from The Anarchist Collectives, by Sam Dolgoff. There are many, many more relevant quotes to find, however that would be far too long. You can reed the book here for free: http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/sam-dolgoff-editor-the-anarchist-collectives

It leads a nation to nothing but the way of militarization, gulags and other political abuses.

Need i not mention the so many deaths that were sustained under socialist regimes. People purposely killed in the name of socialism?

No it does not. The Russian Empire was highly militarised, had many gulags (they were the first to use them, however they weren't called gulags back then, GULAG was the name of the Soviet Labour system which was ended in 1961) and was even more politically abusive than Stalinist USSR. I can assure you that the Russian Empire was not socialist. Yet it had those things you mentioned above. The Russian Empire was a conservative monarchical autocracy.
According to your logic, all monarchies, autocracies and conservative nations have gulags, are politically abusive and are highly militarised. Do you see the bias in your reasoning?
Unless you can prove to me that those things are a fundamental part of socialist ideology?

Do you know how many people were killed in the name of christianity? Millions of Jews, Muslims, Native Americans, women accused of being witches, the list goes on and on. Christianity has killed far more people than the regimes you think are socialist. I won't say that christianity is pro-mass-murder (the Old Testament obviously is though), however christianity was responsible for the atrocities I mentioned above. Socialism, the ideology, is not responsible for those deaths however, the leaders of those state-capitalist regimes are the ones responsible for those many deaths which are far less in number than the deaths actually caused by capitalism.

Capitalism has killed many more millions than all the deaths in Marxist-Leninist countries combined, dozens of times more. Millions die every year from a lack of food, water and medicine, in extreme poverty due to the direct exploitation of parts of Africa, South America and Asia by capitalist and imperialist countries, capitalist corporations and organisations (such as the infamous World Bank and IMF, which hves destroyed many countries with their unregulated and neo-liberal economics). It is clear that capitalism is far worse than even Stalinist state-capitalism, however some people are indoctrinated and refuse to look at or recognise the facts.

http://www.globalexchange.org/resources/wbimf/oppose
http://www.africaw.com/how-the-world-bank-and-the-imf-destroy-africa
http://www.globalenvision.org/library/23/1524
http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/02-05-2012/120993-IMF_developing_countries-0/
http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/08/editorials/bello_afag.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmYSNDr84M4
http://maoistrebelnews.wordpress.com/2012/03/16/1-6-billion-killed-by-capitalism/