Battle for Amberland OCC Thread (AMW)

by **The Crooked Beat** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:37 pm

In order to simplify communications between the main participants, and, ideally, attract further participation as well, it seems prudent to create an out-of-character discussion thread for this particular scheme. As of yet, this is closed except to members of the A Modern World RP group, though it may be possible for non-members to take part, in a character-based capacity, on strength of specific proposals.

Anyway, so far, the scenario that we've put together centers on the existence of a large Aventine-held pocket around Kingsmount and on the RL Sambian peninsula, probably called something else in AMW, initially bypassed in the Oakists' initial northward rush, which Oakist powers, led by Cassanos, are now trying to reduce while Gandvik and Walmington, possibly joined by other Aventines, do their best to stage an evacuation before its defenses give way entirely. This particular RP will kick-off some time in late October or early November, approximately four months into the war, with a primarily Cassanovan offensive having just achieved an important breakthrough on the Sambian peninsula's northern shoulder. These maps should help to further clarify the situation:

http://www.abload.de/img/samland18yukh.png

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc3 ... b56709.png

Although orders of battle have yet to be worked-out in finer detail, an Aventine force of approximately 70,000 troops will most likely face between three and five Cassanovan divisions and potentially a number of sub-divisional formations, plus whatever forces other Oakist powers commit on land.

Any and all AMWers are of course greatly encouraged to take part in any capacity that seems reasonable, though, for practicality's sake, the overall balance of forces should remain more or less where it currently is, in order to make sure that major historical elements remain consistent.

So, with luck, we'll have this up and running before too terribly long.

by **Cassanos** » Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:01 am

Okay, I have a rough draft for a timeline. Would that work for you two?
Timeline Proposal

And a preliminary Cassanotian OOB. Note that the units might be well understrength. With the few reinforcements available, it should come to around 80,000 troops, tops.

Cassanotian Forces - Order of Battle

Army:

Navy

Air Force

by **The Crooked Beat** » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:27 pm

That timeline works for me, Cass, though I wonder if it would be worthwhile to add something about two Gandvian corps or so moving south into Amberland during the war's first week, in an attempt to block the Oakist advance and secure a jumping-off point for a prospective counteroffensive against Oakist forces operating further south. Then again, given how this attempt collapsed fairly quickly in the near-destruction of forces involved, it probably isn't actually necessary to go into that much detail. Explains why there are so many Gandvians in the Kingsmount area, at the very least.

One other matter, though, any thoughts on a name? The Battle for Amberland works well enough, I suppose, or the Siege of Kingsmount, but I'd be happy to hear any suggestions of a more poetic nature!

Anyway, a rough outline of Gandvian forces in and around the pocket:

Gandvian ground forces within the pocket itself are no doubt in pretty rough shape, with almost all formations badly under-strength and suffering from acute shortages of heavy equipment and transport. Although I have it down that two infantry divisions managed to stay more or less intact through the summer's fighting, even these probably have a cobbled-together sense about them, and from an official establishment of around 18,000 personnel are down closer to 10,000. Most of their divisional support troops have also been absorbed by the infantry regiments as attrition replacements. Group K, for its part, is a more explicitly ad hoc formation consisting of a marine regiment, probably the only substantial reinforcement that Riga's general staff, faced with a tenuous military situation generally, felt it could spare for Kingsmount, and a regimental/brigade-sized infantry unit assembled from odds and ends, remnants of divisions and regiments that were otherwise destroyed by the Oakist advance, and augmented by a large helping of miscellaneous personnel pressed into service as infantry. Independent Detachment L is meant to be a sort of fire-brigade and tactical reserve, albeit one whose mobility is limited by fuel shortages and probably a dwindling number of serviceable vehicles. Its effective strength is probably around 2,000 to 2,500 personnel, with perhaps a company's worth of tanks and a handful of armored cars.

by **Walmington on Sea** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:54 pm

All right, because I'm trying to update my factbook properly, and turn Polish gminas and Russian districts, cities, and towns into English and made-up counties one by one, this could take forever, so I've concentrated on the Russian portion, which seems likely to be most relevant in this RP, and here's an incomplete map, which I will first complete, and then tidy the heck up, so for now at least we know what counties are relevant.

Also, the Walmingtonians call the Vistula Lagoon the Frisian Bay.

Home Guard units will be active to varying degrees thoughout Amberland, throwing petrol bombs here, switching signposts there, and assassinating fellow Englishmen who have access to sensitive information before they can be captured and tortured into giving up said.

Much of the Imperial force in Amberland will have survived the initial Oakist thrust due to having been deployed to check a potential invasion from Gandvik, not the Shield or Cassanos. It will also have responded quickly, because the Walmingtonian army at the time was probably the most modern on earth, having embraced the expensive Experimental Mechanised Force concept after trials on Salisbury Plain ((in Wiltshire, seen on the map)) during the late 1920s. Comprising both Amberlanders ((from their population, similar to the modern one, of near 2.5 million)) and English, Canadian, and other Empire forces, the defending force will be small, yes, but not so small as the size of the isolated territory suggests ((since the Anglo-American Détente in the 1880s military resources have drifted from North America to Europe)).

However, there will have existed precisely no plans for Anglo-Gandvian military co-operation against an invasion from the south. Most Amberlanders thought that the Shieldians just needed convincing of the more-or-less rightness of the course laid by the Movers, and certainly didn't expect them to collaborate with the Celts, so plans for war with the Shield probably dated to the Napoleonic era.

Accordingly, the English may have affected a brash counter-stroke to the initial invasion, under-taken before the arrival and co-ordination of larger Gandvian forces. If nobody minds, I'd like to think that the counter-attack drove some miles through Oakist lines, making a strong point about who actually invented the concept of combined-arms warfare ((before Geletia and Cassanos stole it)), but then, consisting of only a few thousand men and infamously unreliable vehicles, was utterly unable either to exploit the break-through or hold the ground it had retaken. The result is that, by the time the Gandvians arrive, the Walmingtonians have squandered the bulk of their once pre-eminent mechanised strength and seen most of their professional soldiers encircled and captured or killed.

Current Walmingtonian forces, though perhaps substantial in number in terms of this campaign, are a mix of shell-shocked regulars wandering back without their tanks; national-service personnel who've just got off the boat from Canada, England, or New England and are trying to figure out whether firing a rifle is similar to writing a book, catching a fish, or reaping some wheat; and Home Guard personnel who won't surrender until their heart pills run out.

There are at least two RAF aerodromes in Dorset, but they've probably been heavily bombed already, and are struggling daily to stay in operation ((for now they manage it)). Fighters are few, but include the Molnar-Bankfield 2, an eight-gun, 1,000hp H-block low-wing monoplane fighter... with fixed under-carriage and horrific lack of reliability and the Wychwood Weston. The god-awful Chassire CA.29 represents the main bomber on hand, but has probably not survived the first days of war in significant numbers.

There'll be some tanks left in Walmingtonian ranks, though it's largely due to their having been unavailable for action during the counter-attack due to having broken-down. Since repaired, they remain unreliable, slow, and poorly armoured, but perhaps importantly fitted with a 3-man turret, making them much more combat-effective than many of their opponents. They are the Wychwood Medium MkII, and there are examples of the Birch Gun, but again most lost during the counter-thrust, and non-mechanised artillery is mostly in the form of the QF 18pdr. The main anti-tank weapon is the 2pdr, backed up by 1/2" anti-tank rifles and Leech Bombs ((sticky bombs)) as well as anti-tank mines and improvised HG weapons such as petrol-bombs... Amberland probably has fuel dumps that its defenders can't use-up in this situation, and they may even be an interesting prize for the Oakists.

Most soldiers have P.13 rifles in .280" Ross, with 6-round magazines, and Walmingtonians going into the war feel that theirs is perhaps the best battle rifle in the world, though the American Garand soon alters that. Home Guard troops, however, are often armed with single-shot .303" Martini-Enfield rifles, and some with 5-round .303" early versions of the standard service rifle. There are no sub-machine-guns in service, but many old Ross rifles ((some still used as sniper-rifles)) have been converted as light machine-guns as such, and are present at a surprisingly high rate amongst the English infantry.

by **The Crooked Beat** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:00 pm

Next to the Martini-Enfield, the Krag-Jorgensen looks positively space-age! Probably most of the Gandvian soldiers in Amberland carry the Ik.37 (AG-42 Ljungman), a serviceable if somewhat rust-prone and perhaps underpowered semi-automatic rifle, with a fair number of Kp.34s (Suomi M31) floating around as well, but the Kv.26 (Lahti-Saloranta) light machine gun, deemed adequate in peacetime, has no doubt started to demonstrate its inconvenient qualities. Between the two armies, at least, all the bases are covered. I can't quite decide, though, whether it would make more sense for the Gandvian Army to use the Lahti L-39 or the Carl Gustav m/42 as its main anti-tank rifle, or just have both. I'm leaning toward the latter, but having a functional, if relatively small-bore, recoilless rifle in widespread service so early might not make a ton of sense.

Excellent work on that map, Walmington. I had been thinking that Gandvian forces in Amberland, if only because their own parent formations were so badly torn-up, might actually be, on an informal basis, under Walmingtonian command, so would you prefer to handle the land-ward side of things? As for disposition of forces, how would you feel about Gandvian troops holding the northern part of the line, with Walmingtonians on the southern half? Given Kingsmount's importance as a fortress and likely very strong garrison, that struck me as, potentially, a logical way to divide-up responsibility, though far from the only one, and if Gandvian troops are fighting under de facto Walmingtonian direction their distribution might be wider.

Provided nobody has any objections, how does everyone feel about going ahead with an IC post? I'm not quite sure what to call this RP, but I'll try to come up with a list of ideas soon, and would be happy to hear any suggestions.

Also, one more thing. This probably isn't exactly the right place to raise this issue, but, Walmington, would you be at all interested in taking-over most of the Danish archipelago? I've recently decided (well, that may be too strong a term) to radically down-size Avarga and turn it into a sort of democratic-socialist-pacifist micro-state centered on Lolland and Falster, which would leave most of Denmark open. Cass has agreed to take Jutland, but did not want much more than that, so Zealand, Funen, Mon, and dozens of those smaller islands would be open for the taking. We both thought that a Walmingtonian presence in that area might make historical and strategic sense, as a kind of stepping-stone between Amberland and North America, but in any event it isn't a terribly urgent matter. Something to think about, and you are welcome to that territory if it interests you.

by **Cassanos** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:24 pm

I'm fine with an IC start now. Might I propose November 5th as a starting date for our RP, with "Polessk" falling late on November 2nd?
As for the overall situation, I assume that the Oakist armies have thrust deep into Gandvian Lithuania and took Bornholm on the first day of the war, with a possible attack on Zealand (if you take it, WoS) having taken place. Your call on whether if it was successful, of course. Bohaemian forces have become increasingly available after the quick fall of Suabinc, but will not be employed against the Amberland pocket. The Saxon volunteer brigade was resting and reorganizing after taking heavy losses against Gandvian forces during autumn and will be directed against the pocket, becoming available for me on the second day of the battle.
Beddgelert also mentioned to me hat a number of Geletian soldiers might be fighting on the Gandvian front, though only a battalion or so would be fighting in Amberland, probably with VII. Korps.

I have taken the liberty of drawing a few preliminary maps for the overall situation and Oakist positions in the Kingsmount and Polessk sectors.

Otherwise, I am offering needlessly complicated details on the Oakist forces. Overall, they have some 90 Panzer 38 (largely equipped with a 50mm gun), about 120 Panzer 35, some 20 Panzer IV with a short 75mm gun, a few dozen tankettes and about 100 Panzerjäger I with 50mm guns, as well as a number of crmoured self-propelled artillery, recon and command vehicles.
Artillery comes in at around 250 105mm and 100 150mm guns, mostly at corps and division level, as well as about 250 80mm Field Guns.

The infantry's main weapons are the ZB-30 light and the ZB-53 medium machine guns, the Mauser K98 rifle and the ZK-383 submachine gun.
Also, the 30 He-110s will be replaced by Bohaemian Avia B-135s.

Infantry Division:

Brigade "Gaih Cassta":

by **Walmington on Sea** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:45 pm

Well, the Pz.IV is probably going to make the Wychwood Mediums look a bit silly, but at least most of the other tanks lack the three man turret.

I'm okay with the thread starting whenever you're ready.

As to the Danish islands, I delayed replying until I'd had a little think about it. At first I wondered, well, what would I do with them? What would they be in WoS? Now I suppose that they'd be the English homeland. The Angeln too, of course, but perhaps much of Denmark and northern Germany was in ancient times a bit more English-ish than in reality, perhaps even involved in a seafaring and river-riding trading network running into the Shield, and concerned with fish, furs, timber, amber, and Shieldian grain? At some point, the English ((well, Edwy)) tire of not having complete control of the Amber trade, and are suddenly struck by the light of the Lord, because then, oh my, Crusade! Obviously the non-Englishness of Bornholm is likely to be a bone of historic contention. That should be where we stop off to rest, and to batter and consume the fish we caught en route between Amberland and... Baconland!

Well, let me know exactly what territories it'd entail, and I'll probably be happy to weave them in to the Walmingtonian tapestry.

by **Cassanos** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:06 pm

Well, there are only 20 Panzer IVs altogether, equipped with a short 75mm gun and relatively unreliable.
Besides, I would have no problem with Walmingtonian forces using, say, six-pounders a few years early. Those should pose a threat to any Oakist tank.
Would you be okay with the maps I made, as far as they concern Walmingtonian positions?

As for northern Germany and Jutland being more English, I'm happy with that. It fits how I imagined the Saxons anyway

.

by **Walmington on Sea** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:54 am

Ah, I'm sure the 2pdr can handle most of the armour on hand, especially as the early-mark Pz.IVs had maximum armour thickness of about 30mm, which the Walmingtonian anti-tank gun could defeat at half a mile. Of course, the Medium MkII's 3pdr gun, being an older and much lower-velocity weapon, may not fare so well. I think, in fact, that some of the tanks will be armed with 2prds, and dedicated to anti-armour work (lacking a HE shell for the 40mm weapon), while others retain the bigger (47mm) low velocity 3prd for a more multi-role approach. The only real problem is that the Walmingtonian tanks can be knocked-out by an anti-tank rifle firing against their frontal armour from a few hundred yards! That'll change once we bring in the Valentine, but that will be too late for this campaign.

About the front line, here's a few things I said to TCB via telegram:

I think that the Walmingtonians initially will have tried to hold the invaders on the Pregel ((Pregolya, probably still needs an Englisher name)) and been unable to resist the weight of the assault across the entire front (partly due to not having the advance warning necessary to proper dispersal of forces), leading to the river being crossed east of its confluence with the Daymer ((Deyma)) at Northampton ((Gvardeysk)), where upon that lesser river comes to represent a second line of defence for the Sambian Peninsula, making Kingsmount ((Kaliningrad)), Northampton, and Gloucester ((Polessk)) the front line towns just before the start of this scenario. While prepared defences on the Pregel between Kingsmount and Northampton are fairly strong, those on the Daymer are less extensive, as fall-back positions for resisting Gandvian invasion had been built instead on the (name pending) ((Rzhevka)) (and are probably over-run from the rear). I suppose some forces may then fall back on the Western Canal, which runs north-south mid way between Gloucester and RAF (name pending) ((Khrabrovo)).

I'm not sure, but it seems like after the fall of Gloucester, the bulk of English regular forces in the area will have been lost, and the weaker Daymer stop-line, which has been breached in the north at Gloucester, and area behind it will mostly be defended by Gandvians and Home Guard units, while most remaining English regular formations are on the Pregel, probably about to be Maginot...ed after refusing to buckle under frontal assault.

by **Beddgelert** » Wed May 01, 2013 11:43 am

There will indeed be some Geletian presence in theatre.

During the Great War, the Triarchy directed its three military Fronts in quite independent campaigns.

The Southern Front, incorporating the armies of the Venetii of Armorica (Bulgaria), the Sygeni of Sygenia (Macedonia), and the Cornitouti of Cornitoutia (Turkish East Thrace excluding Constantinople, and arguably including parts of Greek Thrace too), was thrown almost entirely across the Bosporus against Byzantium. The population of the Southern Confederation at the time was something like 8.25 million, compared to probably 24 million in the (rapidly growing) Byzantine Empire of the day, but it was assumed that a Geletian highlander was worth three Greeks in any case and were more combat experienced (in Tsalland), Geletian forces probably started with a higher degree of mechanisation and artillery support etc, the attack was supposed to destroy significant Byzantine air strength on the ground and encircle the enemy's best units, and it was supposed to be co-ordinated with a larger Shieldian offensive in the north-east. I think the Front probably boasted about 300,000 men later rising to 700,000 as later rounds of the draft kicked in, akin to the Italian force thrown ineffectually against France.

The Western Front, incorporating the armies of the Scordisci of Scordiscia (Serbia), Boii of Boia (Kosovo and Montenegro), and Brigantes of Brigantia (Albania), formed the bulk of the operation against Italia. The Western Confederation probably had a population close to eight million, leaving it badly outnumbered on paper, but again the Geletians felt their troops, especially the still 'primitive' highlanders of Brigantia and Boia, were superior fighting men to any the Italians could muster, while Scordiscia provided advanced modern equipment, the attack would be co-ordinated with a larger assault by Valendia in Iberia, and the expected over-land attack in the north through occupied Tsalland would be little more than a diversion to the smaller but fast-moving amphibious assaults further south and the air attack on the superior Roman fleet at Taranto. Intelligence reported Roman complacency over the prospects of a Geletian assault anywhere but through Tsalland, and that Rome had bought a deception campaign over supposed Valendo-Geletian animosity pertaining to over-hyped Breton independence movements. This force probably rises to about half a million men as both the over-land and amphibious operations build, and the counter-partisan war drags on.

The Northern Front, comprising the armies of the Durcodi of Durcodia (Hungary and Bratislava), the Silures of Siluria (greater Transylvania), and the Regni of Regnia (remainder Romania and Moldova), was the most powerful force, drawn from a population the better part of thirty million in the most industrialised territories of Geletia, the Front eventually rising to somewhere between two thirds of a million and one million men, with better mechanisation, armour, artillery, and air support than most fronts, and better logistics.

It's the X-factor in the Geletian campaign, I suppose, more modern but less focused than the other two, which have clear objectives against Rome and Byzantium. Initially some forces are sent to assist in the invasion of Suabinc, where they probably weren't desperately needed, and didn't remain with the occupation forces long after the inevitable victory. Some probably took part in the first phase of the diversionary attack on northern Italia, partly just to be seen and help convince Rome that this was where the main blows would fall, but again didn't remain in strength, withdrawing their tanks and leaving the fighting to the better-suited highlanders from the west. Over all, the Northern Front's main mission was probably Operation Push The Shieldian Grand Army Around In Its Wheelchair, with strength divided between the second Byzantine front and the invasion of Gandvik.

I suppose the Northern Front might split into three war bands, with, most likely, the Silures (with the smallest and least advanced of the northern armies) going through the Caucasus with the Shieldians, the Regni (with the largest and second most modern component) going into Gandvik with the Shieldians, and the Durcodi (with the most highly mechanised Geletian force) taking part in the Amberland campaign.

All Geletian tribes insisted on having at least one unit of theirs involved in every prestigious campaign, which perhaps represents a problem akin to the lack of inter-service and even inter-unit co-operation in the Italian Fascist military, the three Triarchs and nine Chieftains always clawing for glory and influence.

So I can arrange it so that only a portion of the Army of Durcodia (the (in)famous Black Army that at times has seen its name applied to the entire Geletian army, and probably has something to do with the traditional Nibelung description of Geletia's 'wide black land') is available for the final thrust, with other units off lending their armoured support in other campaigns, perhaps trying to over-come this stubborn Gandvian city or hold off that counter-offensive, if not trying in vain to create a break-through for the Shieldian masses to exploit in Asia Minor.

Something equivalent to the Corpo Aereo Italiano, I think, may be the best way to go, including a flight of reconnaissance biplanes/nuisance-bombers, a small transport squadron, a fighter wing, and two light/medium bomber wings.

After initial losses in redeployment to a region with very unfamiliar conditions (the Baltic =/= Hungary, after all!), that might mean about 64 bombers, 22 transport and communications aircraft, 5 reconnaissance seaplanes, 45 modern Geletian low-wing monoplane fighters, and 12 captured Roman biplane fighters used partially to evaluate them with a view to possible continued production. I think the force, though each squadron will have a Geletian commander, sometimes from different tribes, may be placed under the general direction of Cassanos command in the campaign, and they may have more than a little trouble getting the Geletian officers to stick to the script at times.

by **The Crooked Beat** » Thu May 02, 2013 9:16 pm

Hmm, I suppose I really should try and figure out what Gandvik's population was at this point in time. It must have had most of Russia's 103-odd million, plus of course the Baltic states and Scandinavia, so maybe somewhere around 80 million people? Extrapolating from present-day figures definitely isn't the best way to go about it, but a ballpark estimate at least. If 40 million-plus Shieldians are counted, the central and eastern European Oakists must at least equal Gandvik population-wise, and the appearance of Geletian troops on the Shieldian front, a contingency that Gandvian planners probably tried to wish away, would probably have derailed Riga's plan to take Ianapalis in the war's opening month while simultaneously proving wrong all of the General Staff's pre-war assumptions regarding cavalry's place on the modern battlefield.

Maybe, though, the number of Gandvian troops in the Sambian Pocket (if we decide to call it that) ought to be increased, if only to offset, for practicality's sake, the substantial forces arrayed against it. The outcome, of course, will be unchanged, but maybe another division would help to explain how the pocket managed to stay afloat for so long to begin with, while also making it large enough for Riga to consider it worth trying to save.

In technical terms, at least, like the Walmingtonians, Gandvian troops could certainly expect to defeat enemy armor with what anti-tank weapons were at hand, though the problem, of course, is, by now, their acute scarcity. In the air, Gandvik's mixture of fixed-gear monoplanes and Fiat biplanes definitely can't match Oakist V-3s and B-135s, and SB-equivalents have probably been falling in droves over the course of near-suicidal daylight raids.

As for possible Walmingtonian territory in RL-Denmark, I think the islands in question would be Funen, Zealand, Amager, Langeland, and dozens of other smaller ones that I'm too lazy to track down. Certainly I don't want you to take any more territory if it's just another complication to established histories, but if you want those territories, you're of course more than welcome to them.

I'm sorry that it's taking me so long to finish the opening post, but, with more than a little bit of luck, I hope to have something to show you on next Sunday or Monday. In the meantime, though, if anyone thinks they can work faster, and is feeling inspired, feel free to take over in that respect.

Also, any thoughts on a name? The Battle for Amberland is a safe option, maybe even the Battle of the Sambian Pocket, but something like Operation such-and-such also has a certain ring to it. Maybe Operation Buzzard, or Operation Switchboard? An Oakist perspective might work well too.

Not to be unbearably pretentious, but I've also been thinking about a name like What Keeps Mankind Alive? from The Threepenny Opera, as a way to capture the cynical aspects of our Great War (that, and it's the only line from that play which I know), but I'm sure others can come up with something far better and more appropriate.

by **Beddgelert** » Thu May 02, 2013 10:24 pm

Don't worry too much about the added Geletian forces on your front... most of them are spoiled by having faced inept and inbred Tsag commanders for decades, over-confident from having whipped Tsalland and Byzantium last time out, hundreds of miles from home and their supply bases, reliant in part on Shieldian logistics, and their most numerous armoured vehicle is the R-1 tankette, a licence-built/modified Bohemian AH-IV (BTW, you don't mind if I assume a lot of the RL Swedish improvements were applied to Geletian machines, do you?). Geletia's Ewrop (Hungarian Turan) tanks would doubtless kick a lot of arse early on, but the Triarchy only manages to manufacture them at a rate of hundreds per year, compared to the thousands of Gandvian, Walmingtonian, and American tanks, and only begins to introduce a replacement in late 1944, at a low rate. The Northern Front starts the war as one of the most advanced armies in the world, but becomes gradually worse as the war goes on, while presumably most Aventine armies improve with time.

Probably a lot of reckless and admittedly terrifying offensives from the Northern Front, followed by an abject inability to hold captured territory long enough for the mass of slow-moving Shieldian infantry to catch up, leading to the latter turning up just in time to be over-run by the Gandvian counter-attack time after time. Or something along those lines. Almost every Geletian victory is Pyrrhic, as losing even ten tanks in a successful attack one day means waiting a week until a similar number have been manufactured (and probably months before they can be brought up across the Shield).

Anyway, I suppose that's at most background colour to this scenario.

I think Cass probably gets the final say on the name of the Oakist operation, given engaged force levels. Gweithredu Bryn Glas (Action Blue Hill) if it's left up to the Durcodi element

by **Cassanos** » Fri May 03, 2013 3:02 am

As for population sizes, RL-Germany had some 80 million people in 1939, including Austria. I think that Nibelunc, with Jutland, parts of Austria, Poland and the Netherlands as well as the Czech Republic would amount to some 85 million people overall. Accounting for current population distribution, when Cassanos has about 20 million people out of some 105 million, it probably had around the same number in 1939. This is because of the likely very high losses during the war and subsequent migration to regions untouched by the war.

TCB, I'm quite happy with your rationale for increasing the number of Gandvian troops in the pocket, fine by me.

As for names, we could just as well go with the Walmingtonian name for the evacuation efforts. The Cassanotian offensive will likely be called "Unternehmen Bernstein" or, among Celtic nationalists, "Rautr Glaereigh". Both meaning, roughly, "Operation/Attack Amber".
Not very creative, you might say, but I figured I already named an important city after its role in the amber trade, I could just as well go for it

.
I also don't see a problem with Geletia referring to their part of the operation as "Gweithredu Bryn Glas".

by **United Kongo** » Thu May 09, 2013 11:43 pm

Just dropping by to see perhaps if their was any chance that their might be a few Congolese colonials fighting in this theater under the Geletians. They would only have a fairly minor role in the conflict of course, and would no doubt be made up of Congolese from the more Pro Geletian tribes to prevent any mutinies or quick surrenders but I suppose it would make an interesting rp element to have these soldiers fighting in the cold Baltic coast. And no doubt very strange to any Amberlanders or Gandvians who would encounter them

by **Cassanos** » Fri May 10, 2013 2:14 am

More foreign soldiers with different cultural backgrounds, customs and military doctrines? I like it!

by **Walmington on Sea** » Mon May 13, 2013 2:53 pm

Couldn't hurt to get a relatively new player involved in this unusual RP, I think. The Congolese may find themselves exchanging fire with such far flung and diverse elements as Nubian, Tobagonian, Waynesian, and Bornean levies in Walmingtonian uniform, and the Hawaiian Brigade if Chrin is still pursuing that secondary claim.

Meanwhile, I wonder if TCB is still going ahead with the change to Avarga. As I've been working so much off-line towards an overhaul of my factbook and reorganisation of the Empire, it'll be fairly crucial to know one way or the other.

I've been unable to stop myself thinking about the historic implications, along with attendant constitutional impact, and I don't want to get too much further ahead of myself before discerning whether it's going to happen, and indeed exactly what will happen.

I'm tempted to make the Danish islands, or some of them, into England, and have it that the term historically referred to a wider region including the Angeln and perhaps the rest of Jutland, before the proto-English were driven back to the islands by more populace hostile nations, and become a sea power in order to avert more of the same.

So I wondered, is this more or less the mini-Avarga being mooted?..

by **The Crooked Beat** » Mon May 13, 2013 4:30 pm

Yes, that is just about exactly what I had in mind, Walmington. Though I have a record of changing my mind, I think we can move forward under an assumption that Avarga will become at least that small, if not smaller. At the same time, I wonder if it wouldn't just make more sense for Avarga to disappear altogether, considering how active it's been lately. In any event, the rest of the Danish Islands are definitely free.

I'm very sorry that my opening post is taking so long. My earlier foot-dragging ran right up against an unexpectedly busy week, and while I can honestly report some progress, there is still a good amount to be written.

Absolutely in favor of a Congolese element in this RP, which is certainly not without historical precedent. As a matter of fact, it might even be the Gandvians who are suffering the most from cold weather, since most of them arrived in summer uniforms and probably haven't been supplied with any warm clothing beyond the occasional requisitioned blanket or knit sweater.

Also, would anyone mind if I added five old destroyers to the Gandvian Baltic Fleet? These ships, built 1917-1920 or so, were probably still around as of the Great War, but small even next to other Gandvian destroyers and therefore unsuitable for the open ocean, and maybe best-employed as antisubmarine escorts in Baltic waters.

by **Walmington on Sea** » Tue May 14, 2013 5:24 pm

I'll definitely be sad to see Avarga go, if it does, but I can see how Gandvik is growing into something diverse and interesting in its own right, with future prospects for revolution and a really-old guard and a distinct-in-AMW ethno-cultural composition. Avarga may be ever harder to explain as white Christian Europe closes in around an ever shrinking and bizarrely remote Turk-ish state, but simply from a selfish perspective I don't relish the prospect of writing Alp Molnar out of Walmingtonian history. He'll probably have to be a... Depkazi Mover-convert fleeing the Shield, or something, if you drop Avarga?

Frankly, I'd imagine that these new old destroyers are the least you could add, and I can't see anyone protesting them. Oakists will be glad there aren't more Swedish coastal battleships involved, I'm sure!

by **Cassanos** » Wed May 22, 2013 10:38 am

I would also be unhappy about losing Avarga, since it is a nice combination of a well thought-out state which is nevertheless quite... Unlikely

. I would have no problem with keeping it. It's not big and it doesn't cover essential territory, so I suppose you could use it whenever you are in the mood. This is your call, of course.

And no worries about delays - this is, after all, AMW

.

by **The Crooked Beat** » Thu May 23, 2013 3:03 pm

The IC thread is finally up, less than a month behind schedule!

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=242738&p=14608851#p14608851

Pretty shabbily written, regardless of the weeks of me working on it, but I tried to put events in a fairly broad, albeit Gandvik-centered, perspective, and from that point, with the aid of Cass's excellent situation maps, I'm hoping that we can get something going that everyone will enjoy.

I gave XXV Corps another division to round things out, and at this point the 40th Division is basically down to one regiment. Independent Detachment L has probably been cut-down significantly, and might just end-up getting absorbed by whatever division it is that's holding the middle, I can't quite remember the number.

The Gandvian order of battle is still, to some extent, a work in progress, though all the major pieces should be in place. I'll probably add some more observation and liaison aircraft, and more navy seaplanes, maybe in their own group, so if anyone else wants to augment their numbers somewhat, I have no objections!

As for Avarga, I think it is time for its retirement, so those last islands are free to become part of Walmington if desired. I'll announce this officially soon. But yes, I like Alp Molnar too! Making him a Depkazi Mover seems pretty sensible, at least as sensible as having him come from a quasi-Turkic syncretic culture in the Danish Straits, if not a great deal more so.

There's also a small number of Gandvian Muslims, and a much larger number of forcibly Christianized Tatars and Ugric peoples, so he could also be from one of those communities too if a Depkazi origin doesn't work for whatever reason.

Also, if anyone sees anything in my opening post that they don't like, or think could use a clearer explanation, don't hesitate to say so.

by **Cassanos** » Thu May 23, 2013 9:44 pm

Excellent *evil finger pyramid of doom*. Comprehensive and in your usual, first-rate style.
I take it it would be my turn to post about my not-so-surprising attack?

by **The Crooked Beat** » Fri May 24, 2013 8:38 pm

Definitely, I think a reply from the Oakist side would be very much in order. No rush, though, especially as I have lost any right at all to complain about pacing!

So as to make this more than just a one-liner, I might as well add a bit about Gandvik's military organization.

Also, I've found a good source on PT boat operations in the US Navy during WWII, which makes for interesting reading by itself and probably has a lot of information and guidance to provide for this RP. I just read the Mediterranean section, and it really helped to explain how that sort of fighting between small warships in coastal waters actually played out. Here's the link:

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/CloseQuarters/

Definitely tells things from an American point of view, so maybe of limited value outside that context, but at the very least a little-known aspect of history to read about.

by **Cassanos** » Fri May 31, 2013 6:25 pm

Thanks for the additional infos, TCB. I *am* working on a reply, but right now all of my friends appear to be getting married or celebrating their birthdays, and along uni and work, it's not too easy to find the time. I'll try to have something for you by the end of next week.

by **The Crooked Beat** » Fri May 31, 2013 9:28 pm

No problem from my perspective, Cass! Having been a little over three weeks late with my own post, I'm not exactly in a position to cast any stones myself...

Anyway, enjoy the spring program of festivities, and as always there's no call for any special haste.

by **Cassanos** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:16 pm

Everybody who wanted to is now married, and I have ten days before the next rounds of birthdays, festivals and trips is going to begin. Post is forthcoming. Really, this time!

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