Terra Firma, Planning and discussion

[Glaswegistan]

For the GDP map; Iberia is in the light blue (1,000 - 5,000 Billion URD) area, I think (correct me if I'm wrong), and for military spending it is in the 3% area.

That alright?

[Transnapastain]

For the GDP map; Iberia is in the light blue (1,000 - 5,000 Billion URD) area, I think (correct me if I'm wrong), and for military spending it is in the 3% area.

That alright?

That'll do. That'll do.

[Glaswegistan]

For the GDP map; Iberia is in the light blue (1,000 - 5,000 Billion URD) area, I think (correct me if I'm wrong), and for military spending it is in the 3% area.

That alright?

That'll do. That'll do.

[Alimantuan]

So in regards to the Oranje Vrijstaat now the have a player some things need discussing.

Sanctions? Yes/no? Also SOUP will be blockading them, is this going to cause any sort of major incidents?

Are they going to be a pariah state? If so to the same extent as real life?

Just want to work out where everone stands so I, and SOUP, can form a new opinion on you all. It will also affect chances of winning the dam contract if you recognise them/sell them weapons etc.

Could do with getting this bashed out fellas. Not to try and curb Ali's roleplaying but surely having the Vrijstaat sanction free doesn't fit with TFs realism based nature?

In already established history all the white regimes in Africa are under sanctions, and that is why majority rule exists. If the Vijstaat is never under sanctions then the Kalumban minority regime never falls and neither do the others in Africa, and the whole of my recent history and that of SOUP would need to be rewritten to fit the fact it is now a white ruled Africa. To have states able to freely trade, anything but especially weapons, with the Vijstaat is, in my eyes, frankly ridiculous and completely out of character with the realism based dynamic of the region.

I don't want to be 'that guy' but without sanctions it makes a mockey of my history and SOUPs history which took some considerable time to write up and think up. If someone can think up a reasonable reason why the Vrijstaat is sanction free and all the other African states somehow fell to majority rule then please enlighten me, but I have exhausted my mind and can't think of any situation in which we could get Kalumba and SOUP where they ae with the Vrijstaat as it currently is.

Also apologies for the lack of activity as of late, I have been a bit overloaded with work and other shite.

I know at least 4 nations are varying levels of friendliness. Additionally, the oil likely makes a sanction less preferable, at least as far as I can tell. Oil makes the world run.

[The Republic of Lanos]

*snip*

Did notRhodesia get straight out invaded instead of the Bush War in Terra Firma? I'd think if that was the case, Rhodesia could still be around if Orange Free State moved into to stop that...

[Kalumba II]

But South Africas amount of oil is minimal compared to other states, so should not be a reason to not have sanctions. It didn't stop it in RL so why has it in TF?

No Kalumba 'fell' to insurgents, though ones more in the manner of RENAMO than ZANLA or ZIPRA. But the reason Kalumba, and other SOUP states are majority rule is the same as in RL, Sanctions make living there unprofitable for the white as profits fall and the defence budget grows they leave and minority rule becomes impossible to maintain. Only in SA is it possible to continue due to the higher proportion of whites. If there were no sanctions on SA, RL or TF, then the other minority rule states would just ship their produce there and sell it, and buy what they need through there. It makes no sense for the Vrijstaat to be sanction free with the current history of the rest of Africa.

[Alimantuan]

TF SA has more oil than IRL SA, that's what I was told when I first picked up the nation. Besides, a majority revolution can occur from more than just economic hardship. I'm sure there could be some reason why other nations couldn't just push and pull goods using the Vrijstaat, perhaps the Vrijstaat had sanctions of their own, for instance.

[Kalumba II]

TF SA has more oil than IRL SA, that's what I was told when I first picked up the nation. Besides, a majority revolution can occur from more than just economic hardship. I'm sure there could be some reason why other nations couldn't just push and pull goods using the Vrijstaat, perhaps the Vrijstaat had sanctions of their own, for instance.

But even then there are far better places to buy oil. Oil does not stop sanctions, take that Libyan port currently held by a rebel group for example.

What I am saying is the Vrijstaat should to be under sanctions, now and ever since the 1960s at the latest. It has to have been in the past for my history and that of SOUP to make sense. Revolutions against minority rule only succeed when it becomes impossible for the whites to defend themselves, and this only happens when it is economically impossible for them to continue the fight. I can think of no example where minority rule in Sub-Saharan Africa was overthrown without sanctions being the decisive factor.

The only reason goods couldn't be sold through the Vrijstaat would be if it was under sanctions. There is no reason your government would refuse to allow it, as doing so causes majority rule and results in a hostile goverment on your border which is going to be a base for insurgents to attack you.

Also if you don't have sanctions then why do you still have a domestic arms industry? There is no need to develop your own weapons when it is cheaper just to buy them from abroad.

[Alimantuan]

I'm not the best person to argue on this point, as I'm new.

[San-Silvacian]

So I've thought out BS's political stance much more thoroughly.

Politically, the government is strongly aligned with KC, however, they also are strongly independent, much like a kind of France. Where yes, they are apart of KC and they reap the economic benefits, however militarily they are pushing for a much more Baltic-designed and produced military force. That doesn't mean things that would cost to much to purchase or built and if something is allot cheaper to buy or get from a KC-state, like getting T-64s and upgrading them instead of designing and production from stratch a main battle tank, then they'll do it.

That doesn't mean if a big thing goes down that requires allot of KC support, that BS won't do anything, they'll support and shit like that.

I do intend some serious shit to go down in the next few months though.



Though it won't be such a silly thing like unmarked Russian troops, it might be the government declaring a state of emergency and Puz offering support, which then sets off a crazy series of events.

[Puzikas]

So I've thought out BS's political stance much more thoroughly.

Politically, the government is strongly aligned with KC, however, they also are strongly independent, much like a kind of France. Where yes, they are apart of KC and they reap the economic benefits, however militarily they are pushing for a much more Baltic-designed and produced military force. That doesn't mean things that would cost to much to purchase or built and if something is allot cheaper to buy or get from a KC-state, like getting T-64s and upgrading them instead of designing and production from stratch a main battle tank, then they'll do it.

That doesn't mean if a big thing goes down that requires allot of KC support, that BS won't do anything, they'll support and shit like that.

I do intend some serious shit to go down in the next few months though.

(Image)

Though it won't be such a silly thing like unmarked Russian troops, it might be the government declaring a state of emergency and Puz offering support, which then sets off a crazy series of events.

I'm more okay with you being the France of the KC.
So good for .ru, but remember that the T-64 Ukrainian upgrades are part of the KC tank series.

Your navy, I assume, is going to be mostly ships made by me, but I can understand you making your own ships and such.

[San-Silvacian]

So I've thought out BS's political stance much more thoroughly.

Politically, the government is strongly aligned with KC, however, they also are strongly independent, much like a kind of France. Where yes, they are apart of KC and they reap the economic benefits, however militarily they are pushing for a much more Baltic-designed and produced military force. That doesn't mean things that would cost to much to purchase or built and if something is allot cheaper to buy or get from a KC-state, like getting T-64s and upgrading them instead of designing and production from stratch a main battle tank, then they'll do it.

That doesn't mean if a big thing goes down that requires allot of KC support, that BS won't do anything, they'll support and shit like that.

I do intend some serious shit to go down in the next few months though.

(Image)

Though it won't be such a silly thing like unmarked Russian troops, it might be the government declaring a state of emergency and Puz offering support, which then sets off a crazy series of events.

I'm more okay with you being the France of the KC.
So good for .ru, but remember that the T-64 Ukrainian upgrades are part of the KC tank series.

Your navy, I assume, is going to be mostly ships made by me, but I can understand you making your own ships and such.

Naval wise, it'll be a slow thing. I'll have mostly Puzak made ships, however a frigate or two and a few patrol boats and stuff will be built by me.

I'm glad we could come to a conclusion.

[Alimantuan]

I'm not the best person to argue on this point, as I'm new.

So a new idea for a solution is that the Vrijstaat was sanctioned, but still traded with select external nations. Would that work?

[The Republic of Lanos]

Did anyone call the AIDC F-CK 1 fighter? I got some ideas for it but not as an interceptor fighter.

[Transnapastain]

Did anyone call the AIDC F-CK 1 fighter? I got some ideas for it but not as an interceptor fighter.

No one has claimed it, but probably because its kind of shit. You recall we discussed it in channel, like, a couple months ago.

Its your if you want it.

[The Republic of Lanos]

No one has claimed it, but probably because its kind of shit. You recall we discussed it in channel, like, a couple months ago.

I do because it was offered as a joke then probably serious but then rejected idea.

Its your if you want it.

I'll do what I can with it as a demonstrator then whatnot later.

[Austrasien]

Could do with getting this bashed out fellas. Not to try and curb Ali's roleplaying but surely having the Vrijstaat sanction free doesn't fit with TFs realism based nature?

In already established history all the white regimes in Africa are under sanctions, and that is why majority rule exists. If the Vijstaat is never under sanctions then the Kalumban minority regime never falls and neither do the others in Africa, and the whole of my recent history and that of SOUP would need to be rewritten to fit the fact it is now a white ruled Africa. To have states able to freely trade, anything but especially weapons, with the Vijstaat is, in my eyes, frankly ridiculous and completely out of character with the realism based dynamic of the region.

I don't want to be 'that guy' but without sanctions it makes a mockey of my history and SOUPs history which took some considerable time to write up and think up. If someone can think up a reasonable reason why the Vrijstaat is sanction free and all the other African states somehow fell to majority rule then please enlighten me, but I have exhausted my mind and can't think of any situation in which we could get Kalumba and SOUP where they ae with the Vrijstaat as it currently is.

Also apologies for the lack of activity as of late, I have been a bit overloaded with work and other shite.

To put it simply, Austrasien does not participate in any sanctions against OV that Virania doesn't force us to. For a couple of reasons.

1. The Afrikaans are an offshoot of Austrasia's "Imperial Franconians" (which is really an amalgam of different Germanic peoples in the IRL Rhennish Fan, Dutch included) and more than a few Austrasiens think of them as something like long-lost siblings.
2. OV is firmly anti-KC.
3. The idea of an "ethnic democracy" ruled by Afrikaans for Afrikaans is something Austrasia is quite comfortable with. It is a pretty good description of their own state, even if they are much more subtle about it than the OV.
4. Even though Austrasia abandoned any colonial designs long, long ago the post-colonial discourse is alien to Austrasia's deeply conservative elites. While they are prepared to make politically-correct noises in public, especially when given a shove by Virania, they really don't care about the disenfranchisement of blacks.

Fundamentally Austrasia is a deeply illiberal society and the individualistic, liberal, norms that drove the anti-apartheid movement IRL don't have much resonance with them. If they have a criticism of the apartheid government, it would be that it does not grant sufficient autonomy to the bantustans and is creating problems for itself. That the Afrikaans desire a government of Afrikaans for Afrikaans is seen as perfectly normal. A progressive position in Austrasia would be that OV should adopt a consociational framework (think: Lebanon, Belgium) and share power among the different ethnic groups, and this is more or less the governments official line internationally. But the idea of a "rainbow nation" is something that would only find currency among the radical left in Austrasia.

[The Akasha Colony]

I believe Carthage would be generally anti-OV, politically and culturally. In contrast to Austrasien, Carthage is a very culturally and ethnically-diverse state and is majority-ruled by native Africans of some stock (Sub-Saharans or North Africans, with a large Arab minority), which makes it difficult to support a white apartheid regime.

While Carthage itself isn't heavily anti-colonial, certainly not to the extent many states were during the decolonization era, the fact that the minority government (in addition to being a minority government in the first place) is dominated by whites also plays into the subtle race divide; whites are seen as being "outsiders" compared to the local sub-Saharans, who are subtly seen as kin in the southern regions. While the government would never admit to such things, the undercurrent does exist.

And lastly, the structure of the government makes it a politically easy target for Carthaginian politicians to rail against. Carthaginians take a decent amount of pride in their democracy and civilization, and view other systems with a mix of suspicion and condescension (which influences their view of communism and their former membership in ANTO). This doesn't preclude friendly relations with dictatorships or absolute monarchies if political expedience is in place, but a government without majority representation becomes a lot easier to turn into a boogeyman than a democratic one.

[Fortunagen]

An updated GDP (PPP) map

If you'd like I can make your life eaiser by filling in NPCs in Oceania

An updated % of GDP spent on military map

Also, for whenever you update it, Fortunagen spends around 2-3% if I'm thinking correctly.

[Spirit of Hope]

http://iiwiki.com/wiki/Pan-Asian_Coalition

iiwiki page for PAC has begun.

Also started the iiwiki for Vietolyea

http://iiwiki.com/wiki/Vietolyea

Take a look at both and yell at me for my failures.

[San-Silvacian]

BS spends 2.5% on its military.

Also BS so small, only 11 million people, but the same size of Poland and other Eastern European nations while they are in the 30-40 million mark.

darn ;-;

[Tule]

Finally started my Wiki page

http://iiwiki.com/wiki/Tule

[Transnapastain]

An updated GDP (PPP) map

If you'd like I can make your life eaiser by filling in NPCs in Oceania

An updated % of GDP spent on military map

Also, for whenever you update it, Fortunagen spends around 2-3% if I'm thinking correctly.

Noted and thats fine, subject to being changed if they're found to be untenable, of course.

So in regards to the Oranje Vrijstaat now the have a player some things need discussing.

Sanctions? Yes/no? Also SOUP will be blockading them, is this going to cause any sort of major incidents?

Are they going to be a pariah state? If so to the same extent as real life?

Just want to work out where everone stands so I, and SOUP, can form a new opinion on you all. It will also affect chances of winning the dam contract if you recognise them/sell them weapons etc.

Could do with getting this bashed out fellas. Not to try and curb Ali's roleplaying but surely having the Vrijstaat sanction free doesn't fit with TFs realism based nature?

In already established history all the white regimes in Africa are under sanctions, and that is why majority rule exists. If the Vijstaat is never under sanctions then the Kalumban minority regime never falls and neither do the others in Africa, and the whole of my recent history and that of SOUP would need to be rewritten to fit the fact it is now a white ruled Africa. To have states able to freely trade, anything but especially weapons, with the Vijstaat is, in my eyes, frankly ridiculous and completely out of character with the realism based dynamic of the region.

I don't want to be 'that guy' but without sanctions it makes a mockey of my history and SOUPs history which took some considerable time to write up and think up. If someone can think up a reasonable reason why the Vrijstaat is sanction free and all the other African states somehow fell to majority rule then please enlighten me, but I have exhausted my mind and can't think of any situation in which we could get Kalumba and SOUP where they ae with the Vrijstaat as it currently is.

Also apologies for the lack of activity as of late, I have been a bit overloaded with work and other shite.

Costa Mejis, and PLU, will sand with SOUP against OV. We have, and will continue to, supply your forces with weapons systems, munitions and training. We would, in the UA councils, support any economic sanctions supposed, as we are not buyers of any OV oil exports. These motions would likely be veto'd by Emmeria. We would not sell them any sort of weapons or other technology, but would continue to export food and finished goods as desired. We are not responsible for what the foreign companies operating in Costa Mejis build and ship to them from their facilities.

Costa Mejis herself will not disallow OV merchants to transmit the Straits of Vi Castis. We may charge them a higher toll, they may be subject to more rigorous inspections, they may be somewhat delayed....but the economic livelihood of the nation depends on business flowing through the Straits.

Bosque del Fuego is probably willing to not export anything to them, especially the glut of oil they have to assist OV in making up for any domestic consumption it doesn't have covered. Bosque will probably be far more insistent and consistent on pushing for economic sanctions than Costa Mejis will.

Val Nube and Prem will need to answer for themselves.

[Premislyd]

OV isn't getting any of my clay~

[Aqizithiuda]

Trigg has simply looked at all the other cases where decolonisation has happened at a rapid rate decided they really don't want to inflict that on the civilians as a whole, and so just stay neutral on the issue.