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Chrinthanium
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Posts: 15545
Founded: Feb 04, 2006
Democratic Socialists

Postby Chrinthanium » Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:23 am

Walmington on Sea wrote:I very much like the idea of having Britain's sovereign base areas in Cyprus, as the Empire lacks a presence in the eastern Med, but justifying it would be a challenge. My first thought was that Cyprus may have been invaded/settled by Arabs fleeing AMW's more-successful Crusades, before a Greek counter-invasion re-took part of the island and provoked/excused British intervention leading to the creation of bases... but then the Arab part of the island wouldn't have anyone playing it, so that's no good.

Might just have to go with, "Well, no one's applied for Cyprus in years, just take it!"

Alternately, Constantinople could maybe have issued a long-term lease of the base areas to Britain for use by the RN/RAF during the Great War in return for our support in both combat and supply while Byzantium was facing invasion on two fronts.

Anyway, I'm not feeling inclined to oppose the minor expansion, simply because it seems unlikely to matter very much.


Isn't worrying about the sovereign base areas in Cyprus akin to me assuming someone else must control the American military bases in Italy and Spain? Obviously those are fully Roman bases in AMW without foreign ships, planes, or men using them except at a time when permitted to do so by the Empire itself. There's not really a need to split Cyprus like it is IRL or house a foreign military base there. Plus, what advantage do the British have in having a presence in the Eastern Mediterranean? They've no territory there to protect, nor are they reliant upon shipping through the Mediterranean. So, I can understand WoS's concern about justification.

Perhaps, though, maybe there is a lease by the British there and, maybe, that lease is about to expire? Maybe there's an RP angle there? Certainly Rome would make the case to Constantinople that the British were, for lack of a better term, an unnecessary presence in the Mare Nostrum while Constantinople may be more concerned about keeping relations all friendly with the Top Hats. Of course the British would, I assume, consider it a point of pride to have, almost literally, every corner of the world dominated by their military power and the loss of such a base could be seen as a potential weakening of that power. Just spit-balling here. It's one angle. And, perhaps, it might spark just a little activity in a mostly dormant region of the interwebs.
"You ever feel like the world is a tuxedo and you're a pair of brown shoes?" - George Gobel, American Comedian (1919-1991)

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Jatriqya and Hoya
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Posts: 602
Founded: Aug 01, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Jatriqya and Hoya » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:26 am

I actually really like the idea WoS, of the British having been given bases during the Great War when the Byzantines were struggling to defend themselves. Perhaps as the Imperial government was uprooting anything of value and fleeing to Beirut and preparing resistance in Anatolia, they though, hey, why don't we give a 75 year lease (1940-2015) on Akrotiri and Dhekelia, since the British will help protect us.

It could give some RP to the region as Chrin mentioned, with the Romans not loving the British bases. The Byzantines probably aren't hugely fond of the British bases, but they probably bring in money, jobs as well as added security that we don't have to pay for (always a plus).

EDIT: and perhaps british teens also enjoy loose morals on Cyprus (Ayia Napa, Paphos) just like they do in real life!
Last edited by Jatriqya and Hoya on Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kyr Shorn
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Founded: Dec 01, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Kyr Shorn » Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:52 am

And to any potential applicants for the newly freed areas in central Europe, don't feel constrained to do something 'Austrian' or even 'Hapsburg' if you don't want to. The region has enough going on that you could create whatever civilization or history that you want.

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Europe - Prussia
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Posts: 429
Founded: Oct 25, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Europe - Prussia » Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:09 pm

As I said in the discussion thread, and following J&H in the whole hole-filling thing, I would like to request a slight modification to my claim, by adding the Euro-hole that exists between my own claim and Cass' claim. Realistically speaking, no one will ever claim that place, not only because is small, but because is in between two great powers. That hole also greatly bothers me, through that is a matter more about aesthetics and uniformity so is not very important.

Now, about numbers:

Luxembourg: 520,672
Saarland: 990,718
Rhineland-Palatinate west to the Rhine: 3.360,610
Total: 4,872,000

Valendia: 106,311,570
Total: 111,183,570

It it's necessary, i'll make some concessions. Not on territory obviously because then the whole point of doing this would be lost, so maybe lowering my GDP and per capita?

Also, I have an idea for a small secondary claim in Africa (because that continent really needs more movement) which goes along the lines of BG's proposal, but much more crazier. I'll most more about it later when I have it fleshed out :)
A member of A Modern World as Valendia:

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Valendian Empire - [ Nation Maintenance / News Thread ]

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Chrinthanium
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Founded: Feb 04, 2006
Democratic Socialists

Postby Chrinthanium » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:27 am

Jatriqya and Hoya wrote:I actually really like the idea WoS, of the British having been given bases during the Great War when the Byzantines were struggling to defend themselves. Perhaps as the Imperial government was uprooting anything of value and fleeing to Beirut and preparing resistance in Anatolia, they though, hey, why don't we give a 75 year lease (1940-2015) on Akrotiri and Dhekelia, since the British will help protect us.

It could give some RP to the region as Chrin mentioned, with the Romans not loving the British bases. The Byzantines probably aren't hugely fond of the British bases, but they probably bring in money, jobs as well as added security that we don't have to pay for (always a plus).

EDIT: and perhaps british teens also enjoy loose morals on Cyprus (Ayia Napa, Paphos) just like they do in real life!

Loose morals for a British teen would be forgetting to have a cup of tea at breakfast. If you're getting at what I think you're getting at, that would be very Roman of them. But, whatever you two decide, I'm cool with.

Insofar as my previous request for an addition to the Roman Empire, I have made an augmentation to that.

I am adding the following:

Jamaica
Cape Verde
Brazilian States of Pernambuco, Paraiba, and Rio Grande do Norte

I stated that I was dropping some territory as well, but opted to retain the Canary Islands (part of RL Spain).

Overall, Rome seems to be remaining around 124 million (give or take). I have to redo my spreadsheet to get the exact total.

Once EP and Beeg's requests are approved, I'll add those to the map. Oh, EP, I really don't see the need for you to drop anything for your particular addition. And, it definitely has my blessing. Of course, if you're in the giving mood, I'd never say no to Spain north of the Ebro :lol2:
Last edited by Chrinthanium on Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
"You ever feel like the world is a tuxedo and you're a pair of brown shoes?" - George Gobel, American Comedian (1919-1991)

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Abargrapt
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Posts: 2
Founded: Apr 02, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby Abargrapt » Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:55 am

Beddgelert wrote:Hm, over 3.7 million people scattered over forty bajillion square kilometres, then? That could... sort of work. Russia of the sunny south!

I could see the nation annexing the Marshall Islands etc. and from there launching attacks on Japanese merchants, leading to a war in which Japan conquers those islands it now holds, if that's any use. Failure to push further and conquer the whole pirate empire due to not knowing where the hell anything is, and where these cutters and outriggers keep turning up from and running off to, and maybe due to other powers not wanting to see Japan gain too much (and maybe better to let the little pirate empire subsist than have a massive war between great powers just for the victor to end up with a lot of coral and sandbanks).


Right, here we are, then. A hopefully-exhaustive list of the maximum possible extent of this empire founded by pirates and Polynesian allies (even though quite a bit of it's in Melanesia), along with population figures. Let me know if I've included something that's already claimed, or missed a big frigging island chain in the middle of the prospective empire!

Fiji: 903,207
Vanuatu: 266,937
New Caledonia: 267,840
Kermadec: 0
Tonga: 106,440
Niue: 1,190
Cook Islands: 10,134
Tokelau: 1,337
Wallis and Futuna: 15,561
American Samoa: 54,517
Samoa: 196,628
French Polynesia: 280,026
Pitcairn: 48
Tuvalu: 10,782
Baker Island: 0
Nauru: 9,488
Micronesia: 105,681
Solomon Islands: 609,883
Palau: 21,186
PNG Islands Region: 1,096,543
PNG Esa'ala District: 54,467
PNG Kiriwina-Goodenough District: 63,916
PNG Samarai-Murua District: 58,590

Total Abargraptine Empire: 4,134,401

Uncertain status: Jarvis Island, Kingman Reef, Palmyra Atoll, Wake Island, Johnston Atoll, Midway Islands. All uninhabited, and I'd have assumed some were claimed by Japan and others America, given their locations, but a half-arsed search didn't bring anything up claims wise.

Claimed but not administered: Kiribati, Marshal Islands, Northern Mariana Islands, Guam (Japan); Norfolk Island, Lord Howe Island, Coral Sea Islands (Chrinthanium); Hawaii (America).

I'm assuming that the Abargraptines at least tried to seize all of the above at one time or another, or even controlled some of them in the past, but were defeated by greater powers. For example maybe capturing some Hawaiian islands before running into a rampaging Kamehameha; raising the ire of the Chrinthanis when attempting to colonise the Coral Sea Islands, leading to the Chrinthani conquest of Lord Howe and Norfolk; advancing through the Marshall and Mariana Islands until hitting Japan-proper and managing only to alert the Empire to the presence of tempting targets to the south-east, et cetera, et cetera.

Abargrapt will remain a militarised state with national-service and widespread impressment, but its military will make the late-imperial forces of the Shield look positively futuristic and well-maintained.

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Jatriqya and Hoya
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Posts: 602
Founded: Aug 01, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Jatriqya and Hoya » Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:40 pm

Jatriqya and Hoya wrote:I actually really like the idea WoS, of the British having been given bases during the Great War when the Byzantines were struggling to defend themselves. Perhaps as the Imperial government was uprooting anything of value and fleeing to Beirut and preparing resistance in Anatolia, they though, hey, why don't we give a 75 year lease (1940-2015) on Akrotiri and Dhekelia, since the British will help protect us.

It could give some RP to the region as Chrin mentioned, with the Romans not loving the British bases. The Byzantines probably aren't hugely fond of the British bases, but they probably bring in money, jobs as well as added security that we don't have to pay for (always a plus).


Does anyone have any updated comments on this?

Also, E-P, with that expansion, I'd by willing to voice my approval if there's no increase in GDP total - it's a fairly large amount of people and imo, Valendia has a strong enough economy as-is.

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Chrinthanium
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Posts: 15545
Founded: Feb 04, 2006
Democratic Socialists

Postby Chrinthanium » Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:57 pm

Abargrapt wrote:
Beddgelert wrote:Hm, over 3.7 million people scattered over forty bajillion square kilometres, then? That could... sort of work. Russia of the sunny south!

I could see the nation annexing the Marshall Islands etc. and from there launching attacks on Japanese merchants, leading to a war in which Japan conquers those islands it now holds, if that's any use. Failure to push further and conquer the whole pirate empire due to not knowing where the hell anything is, and where these cutters and outriggers keep turning up from and running off to, and maybe due to other powers not wanting to see Japan gain too much (and maybe better to let the little pirate empire subsist than have a massive war between great powers just for the victor to end up with a lot of coral and sandbanks).


Right, here we are, then. A hopefully-exhaustive list of the maximum possible extent of this empire founded by pirates and Polynesian allies (even though quite a bit of it's in Melanesia), along with population figures. Let me know if I've included something that's already claimed, or missed a big frigging island chain in the middle of the prospective empire!

Fiji: 903,207
Vanuatu: 266,937
New Caledonia: 267,840
Kermadec: 0
Tonga: 106,440
Niue: 1,190
Cook Islands: 10,134
Tokelau: 1,337
Wallis and Futuna: 15,561
American Samoa: 54,517
Samoa: 196,628
French Polynesia: 280,026
Pitcairn: 48
Tuvalu: 10,782
Baker Island: 0
Nauru: 9,488
Micronesia: 105,681
Solomon Islands: 609,883
Palau: 21,186
PNG Islands Region: 1,096,543
PNG Esa'ala District: 54,467
PNG Kiriwina-Goodenough District: 63,916
PNG Samarai-Murua District: 58,590

Total Abargraptine Empire: 4,134,401

Uncertain status: Jarvis Island, Kingman Reef, Palmyra Atoll, Wake Island, Johnston Atoll, Midway Islands. All uninhabited, and I'd have assumed some were claimed by Japan and others America, given their locations, but a half-arsed search didn't bring anything up claims wise.

Claimed but not administered: Kiribati, Marshal Islands, Northern Mariana Islands, Guam (Japan); Norfolk Island, Lord Howe Island, Coral Sea Islands (Chrinthanium); Hawaii (America).

I'm assuming that the Abargraptines at least tried to seize all of the above at one time or another, or even controlled some of them in the past, but were defeated by greater powers. For example maybe capturing some Hawaiian islands before running into a rampaging Kamehameha; raising the ire of the Chrinthanis when attempting to colonise the Coral Sea Islands, leading to the Chrinthani conquest of Lord Howe and Norfolk; advancing through the Marshall and Mariana Islands until hitting Japan-proper and managing only to alert the Empire to the presence of tempting targets to the south-east, et cetera, et cetera.

Abargrapt will remain a militarised state with national-service and widespread impressment, but its military will make the late-imperial forces of the Shield look positively futuristic and well-maintained.


4 million strewn over 40 bajllion square kilometers of ocean. Has a nice ring to it, eh? :D

As a neighbor of this claim, I'm all for it as presented. Seems like it could be fun! I'll play around with the map to get a sense of what this looks like (and how I have to denote it) while it is still in "pending" mode. I'm for any attempts for you to get Chrinthani-held territory that is repelled. Gives the Chrinthani something to stand on other than being left alone down under to develop cute accents and create television shows centered around cul-de-sacs.
"You ever feel like the world is a tuxedo and you're a pair of brown shoes?" - George Gobel, American Comedian (1919-1991)

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Chrinthanium
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Posts: 15545
Founded: Feb 04, 2006
Democratic Socialists

Postby Chrinthanium » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:36 pm

Abargrapt wrote:
Beddgelert wrote:Hm, over 3.7 million people scattered over forty bajillion square kilometres, then? That could... sort of work. Russia of the sunny south!

I could see the nation annexing the Marshall Islands etc. and from there launching attacks on Japanese merchants, leading to a war in which Japan conquers those islands it now holds, if that's any use. Failure to push further and conquer the whole pirate empire due to not knowing where the hell anything is, and where these cutters and outriggers keep turning up from and running off to, and maybe due to other powers not wanting to see Japan gain too much (and maybe better to let the little pirate empire subsist than have a massive war between great powers just for the victor to end up with a lot of coral and sandbanks).


Right, here we are, then. A hopefully-exhaustive list of the maximum possible extent of this empire founded by pirates and Polynesian allies (even though quite a bit of it's in Melanesia), along with population figures. Let me know if I've included something that's already claimed, or missed a big frigging island chain in the middle of the prospective empire!

Fiji: 903,207
Vanuatu: 266,937
New Caledonia: 267,840
Kermadec: 0
Tonga: 106,440
Niue: 1,190
Cook Islands: 10,134
Tokelau: 1,337
Wallis and Futuna: 15,561
American Samoa: 54,517
Samoa: 196,628
French Polynesia: 280,026
Pitcairn: 48
Tuvalu: 10,782
Baker Island: 0
Nauru: 9,488
Micronesia: 105,681
Solomon Islands: 609,883
Palau: 21,186
PNG Islands Region: 1,096,543
PNG Esa'ala District: 54,467
PNG Kiriwina-Goodenough District: 63,916
PNG Samarai-Murua District: 58,590

Total Abargraptine Empire: 4,134,401

Uncertain status: Jarvis Island, Kingman Reef, Palmyra Atoll, Wake Island, Johnston Atoll, Midway Islands. All uninhabited, and I'd have assumed some were claimed by Japan and others America, given their locations, but a half-arsed search didn't bring anything up claims wise.

Claimed but not administered: Kiribati, Marshal Islands, Northern Mariana Islands, Guam (Japan); Norfolk Island, Lord Howe Island, Coral Sea Islands (Chrinthanium); Hawaii (America).

I'm assuming that the Abargraptines at least tried to seize all of the above at one time or another, or even controlled some of them in the past, but were defeated by greater powers. For example maybe capturing some Hawaiian islands before running into a rampaging Kamehameha; raising the ire of the Chrinthanis when attempting to colonise the Coral Sea Islands, leading to the Chrinthani conquest of Lord Howe and Norfolk; advancing through the Marshall and Mariana Islands until hitting Japan-proper and managing only to alert the Empire to the presence of tempting targets to the south-east, et cetera, et cetera.

Abargrapt will remain a militarised state with national-service and widespread impressment, but its military will make the late-imperial forces of the Shield look positively futuristic and well-maintained.


Your claim is giving me so many different headaches with our map that I just circled everything you said and possibly more. Furthermore, the districts you've claimed in PNG aren't on the map, nor can I find too much information to give me a listing of everything. I hate you for this. I will get you back :lol2:

Anyway, the current pending claims map is here: http://i.imgur.com/A2AvDEd.png

Also, I've done more research on my own claim and I happen to own those two black dots NE of Brazil in the South Atlantic (belonging to the Brazilian State of Pernambuco).
Last edited by Chrinthanium on Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
"You ever feel like the world is a tuxedo and you're a pair of brown shoes?" - George Gobel, American Comedian (1919-1991)

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Abargrapt
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Founded: Apr 02, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby Abargrapt » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:28 pm

In addition to what we discussed in IRC re. Abargrapt, your mention of those Atlantic Islands caused my eyes to fall upon Sao Tome and Principe, which I'm fair certain are supposed to be Walmy, no? I like how Rome has an obvious island-hopping campaign from Iberia to the nose of Brazil, though. Now to figure out why the hell they sailed south-west in the first place, eh?

Oh, I should have been in bed two hours ago. I hate you, AMW.

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Nova Gaul
Diplomat
 
Posts: 710
Founded: Nov 18, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Gaul » Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:18 pm

Wow I don't know how I missed that BG, I've been checking the boards too. Anyways looks awesome to me, and as to your shared history with Japan, contact with the Abargraptine Empire in the C19th or early 20th (whichever you prefer) might well have spurred both the modernization (i.e. conscious Westernization) of the Japanese military by Valendia and led to a significant Pacific Campaign to build up a buffer zone. I can imagine the Japanese fisherman throwing out his nets in Tokyo Bay, only to look up and see the Skull-and-Crossbones and wondering What the hell is that?...

Edit: Actually, BG, that made me think. I know very little of Japan’s AMW History. There was a feudal era, there was a modernization, and we got Buddhism from Indus somewhere in the former.

The Walmies probably passed Japan by as not worth the trouble for empire building and Japan was probably too introspective to be an early trading partner. So I think significant pirate raids, maybe over a decade or so (to get tea, silk, and geishas maybe) was what spurred Japan to unify, turn to Valendia, modernize to be equal to a proper European power, and in turn became a power in the Pacific. So it is conceivable that the whole lot of the Pacific claim of Japan was once part of, or at least claimed by, Abargrapt. It would also help to explain Japan's xenophobic default setting, because their first lengthy experience of a foreign people was Viking-esque pirate raids?

The dates I’m still hazy on. But let me know your thoughts.

Second Edit: So there might have been a lengthy period of war in the Pacific is my point between Abargrapt and Japan.
Last edited by Nova Gaul on Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Chrinthanium
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Founded: Feb 04, 2006
Democratic Socialists

Postby Chrinthanium » Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:10 pm

While we debate the merits of AMW in the discussion thread, I'd like to edit my claims in AMW:

I had been discussing this in the IRC with Mod and Beeg and wanted to put this here as a final decision on my part. So, in an effort to work on what I want any nation I have in AMW to be, I have come to the conclusion that I am dropping my claim in Australia. Yeah, it's a great place full of natural resources, but, I have a better idea for the Chrinthani. I am dropping the idea of keeping the Western Romans alive in AMW. Beddgelert can finally have killed the Roman Empire. However, the Chrinthani are moving into my European claim. So, Chrinthanium will now be Italy, Portugal, Vatican City, San Marino, Malta, Spain (south of the Ebro, damn you EP), Canary Islands, Madeira, Cape Verde, and the Brazilian States of Rio Grande do Norte, Pernambuco, and Paraiba. I drop all other claims. I also wanted to readd the Eurohole I left when I dropped the Austrian, German bits.

Let's make this official, then:

Republic of Chrinthanium

CLAIM: Italy, San Marino, Vatican City, Malta, Gibraltar, Spain (South of the Ebro, minus Cueta and Melilla), Portugal (minus Azores), Cape Verde, Brazilian States of Rio Grande do Norte, Paraiba, and Pernambuco, Bavaria south of the Danube, Austria (south of the Danube), Liechtenstein, and Cheduba Island (since WoS seems to want someone to have it).

Total Population: 137,476,543
Total Area: 1,129,553 sq km

GDP per capita: 20,000
GDP: 2.749 Trillion

Head of State: His Grace, Nathaniel IV, by the Grace of God, Prince of the Chrinthani
Head of Government: Prime Minister Christie Wentworth
Capital: Milan
Government Type: Constitutional Monarchy, with Prince as Head of State.
Legislature: Bicamerial: Lower House: House of Solicitors Upper House: Senate
Judicial: The High Court of Chrinthanium
Official Languages: English, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, German

History in brief: After the fall of the Roman Empire in the West, various tribes invaded the Italian peninsula. The Chrinthani settled around Milan in the late 600s and spread out towards the ruins of Rome and Naples. Gaining the favor of the Papacy in Rome, the first Prince of the Chrinthani was crowned in 711 CE. With the blessings of the Papacy, and whatever riches the Chrinthani could plunder from ruined Roman cities, their territory spread North to the Danube, south to the Mediterranean, westward to Iberia, and, eventually, into the Atlantic and South America by the 1600s. The Papacy itself became a puppet of the Chrinthani Prince during the Middle Ages with the Chrinthani aiding and abetting the depravity of the Medieval popes in order to secure Papal blessings.

"The Renaissance: Chrinthani artists wanted their works to have a timeless quality, so avoided fashion clichés that may become dated by simply painting everyone nude. The surfboard was invented by Leonardo DaVinci." (Given to me by Beddgelert himself).

The 1700s and 1800s saw the Chrinthani expansion stagnate as attentions were turned inward. The cost of imperial expansion coupled with the sheer distance from end to end meant efficient governing from the center began to suffer. Further adding to the halt of expansion was the Valendian Invasion, led by Napoleon in the early 1800s. While the Chrinthani would initially wind up loosing most of Iberia, they began to muster their strength and beat back the Valendians to the Ebro River, where the border between the two nations remains today.

The Industrial Revolution: The Chrinthani realized there was more to life than painting and farming, and got to work manufacturing things like cars, trains, and DaVinci's surfboard.

The Great War came to Chrinthanium in the late 1930s. Invaded, dejected, left to smolder in ruin, sentiments in Chrinthanium turned against the papacy with the people believing it was the work of the pope who caused the Great Calamity to strike. The Americans and English come to the aid of the Chrinthani and push back the Oakists out of Chrinthani territory. However, the results were the loss of the monarchy by the Prince and the establishment of the Chrinthani Republic in 1947. The Chrinthani and the Pope would make up in 1980.

Military: The Chrinthani Defense Force maintains the defense of the republic. While not as big as its neighbors, it is designed to repel invasions and do quick-strike maneuvers when called into action.

Culture: This bit hasn't really changed. As it was put in the IRC: a bunch of Romano-Gaulish types who've got hedonism down to a fine art. Religion isn't that big of a deal, though there's a fair amount of Catholics, Protestants, some Jews, some Muslims, and a whole lot of people who claim some religion, but rarely follow it.
Last edited by Chrinthanium on Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:15 am, edited 6 times in total.
"You ever feel like the world is a tuxedo and you're a pair of brown shoes?" - George Gobel, American Comedian (1919-1991)

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Walmington on Sea
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Walmington on Sea » Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:43 pm

Most interesting, sir!

After an initial, "Oh no!" I've quickly reconciled the idea of a post-Roman Rome with the tradition of Walmingtonian dislike of the place and all it stands for. It's actually likely to be easier for me to get my head around this than to accommodate Walmingtonian friendship with the Australian Chrinnies. The Catholic heartland as a liberal paradise fits nicely into my peoples' prejudices. Not a 'geo-political enemies' sort of relationship between states, but a general low-key enmity between populations. Catholics are debauched layabouts, Godfreyites are reactionary prudes.

I've been wondering, and I still don't know where TCB's ideas will lead or how they may impact on this line of thinking, about whether to make WoS a little more real-worldy in terms of location and, to a lesser degree, history. I know that WoS has gradually expanded as it is, but part of me wants to give-up on being different just for the sake of it, and move the nation around to more IRL British Empirey locations. I think Chrin once suggested this and I dismissed it out of hand, but to be honest I'm tired of trawling through provinces of this country and that and trying to work out what's what and how to superimpose British cities on Holstein and so forth.

Should I move WoS-proper to Great Britain?

I've been thinking of running the nation as a realisation of the Imperial Federation, a notion I've sort-of discussed with one or two of you. I have been a bit stuck at times on where to place things re. the Empire and largely post-empire developments such as the welfare state and NHS.

AMW simply isn't going to fill up, I think we've all accepted that by now. I've contemplated having Britain, Canada, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, and maybe some parts of the West Indies and one or two other places (including the UK & ANZ dependencies etc.) and just calling it, "The Imperial Federation" and maybe even putting Dad's Army characters in charge of each member state.

But then Amberland and to a lesser degree Mauretania feel like big losses.

I am scratching my head rather a lot, here.
The world continues to offer glittering prizes to those who have stout hearts and sharp swords.
-1st Earl of Birkenhead

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Chrinthanium
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Posts: 15545
Founded: Feb 04, 2006
Democratic Socialists

Postby Chrinthanium » Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:57 pm

Walmington on Sea wrote:Most interesting, sir!

After an initial, "Oh no!" I've quickly reconciled the idea of a post-Roman Rome with the tradition of Walmingtonian dislike of the place and all it stands for. It's actually likely to be easier for me to get my head around this than to accommodate Walmingtonian friendship with the Australian Chrinnies. The Catholic heartland as a liberal paradise fits nicely into my peoples' prejudices. Not a 'geo-political enemies' sort of relationship between states, but a general low-key enmity between populations. Catholics are debauched layabouts, Godfreyites are reactionary prudes.

I've been wondering, and I still don't know where TCB's ideas will lead or how they may impact on this line of thinking, about whether to make WoS a little more real-worldy in terms of location and, to a lesser degree, history. I know that WoS has gradually expanded as it is, but part of me wants to give-up on being different just for the sake of it, and move the nation around to more IRL British Empirey locations. I think Chrin once suggested this and I dismissed it out of hand, but to be honest I'm tired of trawling through provinces of this country and that and trying to work out what's what and how to superimpose British cities on Holstein and so forth.

Should I move WoS-proper to Great Britain?

I've been thinking of running the nation as a realisation of the Imperial Federation, a notion I've sort-of discussed with one or two of you. I have been a bit stuck at times on where to place things re. the Empire and largely post-empire developments such as the welfare state and NHS.

AMW simply isn't going to fill up, I think we've all accepted that by now. I've contemplated having Britain, Canada, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, and maybe some parts of the West Indies and one or two other places (including the UK & ANZ dependencies etc.) and just calling it, "The Imperial Federation" and maybe even putting Dad's Army characters in charge of each member state.

But then Amberland and to a lesser degree Mauretania feel like big losses.

I am scratching my head rather a lot, here.


The fact you found it interesting is a good thing in my book. At least it keeps something I love mixed with a location I love. So, overall, it's a win-win there. And, of course, the Chrinthani are willing to assisting in your Drapol thingy because you helped us. Just to keep history without rewriting anything other than the name.

And, well, I have no issues with you relocating to a British Empire in Britain claim. Seems to cover roughly what Gurg had when I first came here. It makes sense to me, for the most part, though a bit expansive. Still, I suppose that I can't really object to this overall. So, does this mean you're dropping Amberland, Mauretania, British South America, and the parts of Africa you already claim?
Last edited by Chrinthanium on Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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United Kongo
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Postby United Kongo » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:50 am

Chrinthanium looks like a really good idea, as does the Imperial Federation idea, my only question though is Nilosahara going to be ditched in this federation or will it's history remain the same with the new context (

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Europe - Prussia
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Postby Europe - Prussia » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:42 am

So Chrinthanium is moving to Europe? that's fine by me. I don't know if it will change the current dynamics in Europe, but at least it's hedonistic culture will draw the ire of it's neighbors and will reinforce Valendia's "I don't care" feeling towards the Papacy.

Also, I course you Chrin!! now I will have to rewrite my history ....... again. :p

About Walmington moving to territories held by the British Empire, that's fine by me. In fact, it should make things more simple, no? And about the Imperial Federation idea, I was here first you know? though I stole the idea from Chrin in the first place....

Seriously, though, if Walmington adopts the "Imperial Federation" classification, I'll just change Valendia's name. Maybe Holy Empire? it will give Valendia a more hostile and imperialistic vibe, but maybe that's not a bad thing altogether; Valendia is always fence-sitting between democracy and empire, and a darker turn may "spice" things a little. Then again, I could just change the name and keep fence-sitting, because while Valendia is powerful, it's not "superpower" powerful, which means a lot of trouble, starting with it's neighbors.

Hmmm, choices, choices....
Last edited by Europe - Prussia on Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Chrinthanium
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Postby Chrinthanium » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:12 pm

Europe - Prussia wrote:So Chrinthanium is moving to Europe? that's fine by me. I don't know if it will change the current dynamics in Europe, but at least it's hedonistic culture will draw the ire of it's neighbors and will reinforce Valendia's "I don't care" feeling towards the Papacy.

Also, I course you Chrin!! now I will have to rewrite my history ....... again. :p

About Walmington moving to territories held by the British Empire, that's fine by me. In fact, it should make things more simple, no? And about the Imperial Federation idea, I was here first you know? though I stole the idea from Chrin in the first place....

Seriously, though, if Walmington adopts the "Imperial Federation" classification, I'll just change Valendia's name. Maybe Holy Empire? it will give Valendia a more hostile and imperialistic vibe, but maybe that's not a bad thing altogether; Valendia is always fence-sitting between democracy and empire, and a darker turn may "spice" things a little. Then again, I could just change the name and keep fence-sitting, because while Valendia is powerful, it's not "superpower" powerful, which means a lot of trouble, starting with it's neighbors.

Hmmm, choices, choices....


Eh, that's why I just moved the Chrinthan into the WRE. Rather than moving or shifting, it makes sense. Just substitute Chrinthani for Roman and life should be good :P
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Postby Hibernordia » Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:02 pm

Hello! I see AMW is still going strong! :)

It's me Kyle, the partly-alive in-and-out person. :) Just like Italian governments. (hint! hint!) I'm thinking of getting a new claim, one radically different from my old ones. Although AMW would soon lack addictive things (chocolate! tobacco! cocaine!) and stuff like tomatoes and potatoes because I'm leaving my old spot, I hope somebody will take over it so that we can have pasta.

Anyway, this attempted claim will encompass the areas people had left. Without further ado, here is it:

General Info
Name: Italian Confederation (Confederazione Italiana)
Capital: Rome
Claimed Areas: Italy, San Marino, Holy See, Malta, Tunisia, most of Libya, Cyprus, Algerian Coast, North Morocco, Sinai Peninsula. Specifically, this area: http://i.imgur.com/M3xoWga.png

Italy
Malta
San Marino
Vatican City
Cyprus
north Morocco (old regions of Fès-Boulemane, Gharb-Chrarda-Béni Hssen, Oriental, Tangier-Tetouan, and Taza-Al Hoceima-Taounate)
Spanish enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla
north Algeria (Algeria minus the wilayas of Adrar, Béchar, El Bayadh, Ghardaïa, Illizi, Ouargla, Tamanghasset, and Tindouf)
most of Libya (Libya except the District of Kufra)
Sinai peninsula (governorates of Ismailia, North Sinai, Port Said, Suez, and South Sinai)


Area: 2,399,089 sq. km
Population: 122,772,360
Lingua Franca: Standard Italian (Tuscan dialect)
Official Religion: Roman Catholicism

Government
Form: multi-party directorial confederation with elements of direct democracy
Upper House: Council of the Confederation
Lower House: National Council

I know it's big yes, but as you'll see it isn't a monolithic entity as it seems. It will be a confederation of more than four dozen states, including maritime republics (Genoa, Venice, Pisa, Amalfi, Ancona, etc.) and their ex-colonies/trading outposts (Numidia, Cyrenaica, Annaba, Cyprus, Sinai, Tangier, etc.), constitutional monarchies (Milan, Naples, Sicily, Piedmont, Latium, etc.), and inland communes (Bologna, Mantua, Perugia, etc.), the Italian Confederation was primarily a defensive alliance of these states. To put into RL perspective, their federation is looser than Switzerland's and tighter than the European Union's. Primarily focused on trade and commerce, the confederation attempts to maintain its neutrality in various world conflicts despite containing the seat of Christianity. (While the Pope may take sides in world conflicts, the Confederation ignores him; the Pontiff does not dare take his nominal state - the "State of Latium" out of the Confederation. His governance of the Church is separate from his role as the constitutional monarch of the State of Latium.) There is a common defense, monetary, economic, and foreign policy, but the individual states retain a wide degree of latitude and sovereignty in other affairs.


Economy
Currency: Italian lira
GDP: $3 trillion
GDP/cap: $24,449.35

The wealth is not distributed evenly throughout. Rich states such as Venice, Milan, and Genoa are two to three times as rich as the poorest states. Certain states have their own niches. The small state called the Most Serene Republic of Lucca, for instance, is a banking haven (think of Liechtenstein). Genoa is big on shipbuilding; Venice is big on trade. Venice's ex-colony, the Republic of the Sinai, depends on its canal (yes, I'm fond of canals) and as a trading hub. Latium, of course, depends on religious tourism. Other states fare poorly. Sardinia is one of the poorest, although industries such as coal-mining and agriculture are the mainstays of the economy. The ex-Anconitan trading post of Bizacia is dependent on phosphate mining and fishing.


Military
The Italian Confederation, since it is a defensive alliance, also has a defensive orientation when it comes to the military. Although some of its members were maritime republics, the Italian Confederation only maintains a green-water navy. Its army in concentrated in defensive positions throughout the Alps and Apennines, with detachments to guard the south Mediterranean lands. It maintains a small (relative to its size) professional army, although (like Switzerland) there is compulsory military service.

History
I am open to shaping the history of the Confederation to whatever your needs are. But here are the basics/rough outline of the history as it pertains to the Confederation:

11th Century: A small fluid alliance of northern Italian states formed the Padanian League, a collective-self-defense treaty against powerful neighbors.
12th Century: The emerging maritime republics of Genoa and Venice had engaged in intermittent warfare over supremacy in the Mediterranean, along with other maritime republics such as Amalfi, Ancona, and Pisa. Venice's home territory is under threat from its eastern neighbor, while Genoa's from its west. In the Treaty of Brescia, Venice and Genoa agreed to settle their differences, recognize each other's territory (Tangier, Constantine, and Cyrenaica for Genoa; Cyprus, Sinai, and Algiers for Venice), divide the Mediterranean into spheres of influence, and entered into an alliance treaty with each other and the Lombard League. This treaty was the start of the Confederation.

The next centuries: The Venetian-Genoese combined fleets destroyed other maritime republics such as Pisa, Ancona, and Amalfi, incorporating them and their colonies as "subject lands" of the confederation. Same happens to Pavia, Fermo, Como, and Siena, this time with armies of the Padanian League and the maritime republics. Near-conflict over divisions of the spoils led to the Agreement of Verona, in which rules of the confederation were instituted and approved by all members.

The increasing power of the confederation prompted other states to join, such as Lucca and Perugia. The Confederation was not averse to fighting the Pope, or other countries. The adherence of the Republic and Judgeship of Sardinia (despite the name, it was a feudal state), technically a vassal of Genoa, to the Confederation signalled that membership is not only restricted to republican states. Other feudal states and monarchies such as Montferrat, Saluzzo, Naples, Lucania, Capitanata, and Montefeltro followed.

And finally there is the "if you can't beat them, join them" attitude. Savoy (now known as Piedmont) and Sicily, formerly enemies of the Confederation, applied for admission because greater external threats loomed on the horizon. While the Confederation does not involve itself in its members' offensive actions outside the Confederation, it tries to prevent conflict from occurring within the Confederation. Thus Savoy and Sicily neutralized the threat posed by Confederate members by joining the confederation. This was the same reason why the Pope tried to ally his country with the Confederation. After numerous rejections, the Confederation imposed several criteria before the Papal States would be admitted, including that the form of government of the Papal States be changed to a constitutional monarchy and that the Confederation will aid the Papal States only in unprovoked conflicts. The Pope then rejected these demands as too high a price; but eventually another subsequent Pope relented when <insert foreign power here> threatened his domains.

After a civil war and an invasion (Yes, I'm planning on some of these stuff. Somebody mentioned a sack of Rome? Who did it?), the centuries old Treaty of Brescia and the Agreement of Verona were updated to form a new and more manageable constitution. The subject territories and the south Mediterranean ex-colonies from Tangier to Sinai were upgraded to full members of the Confederation, and slow transformation of the Confederation into something more resembling a federal republic started.
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Postby Beddgelert » Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:11 pm

Always good to have you back.

I'm sure Byz put in a claim for Cyprus not long ago... seems to have been missed off the map, though, so I'm not sure what the situation is there.

As to invasions and threats towards Rome, that's usually down to the Geletians :P

In the old history, existing before Italy first went to the dragons, Rome and the Geletian Triarchy warred back and forth for generations, until finally an invasion lead by Acwta -or Akuta- the Briganti surprised the Romans in coming largely by sea, where for the most part the Romans had tended to get the better of the Celts. The emperor was killed and Rome sacked, but the Celts didn't do a great job of the occupation, getting distracted with plundering and celebrating, and a string of 'warrior popes' fought the Geletians until the Triarchy tired of sending reinforcements and abandoned the Italian-settled Celts to be overwhelmed. The Celts themselves were at that time being harried closer to home by the ancestral Tsag, then moving into the Saimonas for the first time, heralding the Age of Migration.

That's about it from the Geletians in Rome (not to say there weren't wars, just no established successful Geletian invasions) until a millennium and a half later and the Great War, when we previously had a surprise Geletian-Valendian invasion over-run the Italian peninsula in 1939, leading to years of partisan resistance.

If the same happens with you in charge, we might even be able to open up a North African theatre for the first time, as the Valendians, who also roll-over Chrinthanium, try to chase-down the remains of the Confederation, and the Celts probably picture themselves marching right through the Byzantine Empire to link-up with their Allies at Suez. Not that it quite works out...


Napoleon also exists in AMW, all be it as a Valendian who ends up getting his grand army whittled down by angry clansmen in the wilds of Geletia, but he's a potential invader of all or part of the Confederacy if you want such interference around that time.
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Postby Hibernordia » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:22 pm

Beddgelert wrote:Always good to have you back.

I'm sure Byz put in a claim for Cyprus not long ago... seems to have been missed off the map, though, so I'm not sure what the situation is there.

As to invasions and threats towards Rome, that's usually down to the Geletians :P

In the old history, existing before Italy first went to the dragons, Rome and the Geletian Triarchy warred back and forth for generations, until finally an invasion lead by Acwta -or Akuta- the Briganti surprised the Romans in coming largely by sea, where for the most part the Romans had tended to get the better of the Celts. The emperor was killed and Rome sacked, but the Celts didn't do a great job of the occupation, getting distracted with plundering and celebrating, and a string of 'warrior popes' fought the Geletians until the Triarchy tired of sending reinforcements and abandoned the Italian-settled Celts to be overwhelmed. The Celts themselves were at that time being harried closer to home by the ancestral Tsag, then moving into the Saimonas for the first time, heralding the Age of Migration.

That's about it from the Geletians in Rome (not to say there weren't wars, just no established successful Geletian invasions) until a millennium and a half later and the Great War, when we previously had a surprise Geletian-Valendian invasion over-run the Italian peninsula in 1939, leading to years of partisan resistance.

If the same happens with you in charge, we might even be able to open up a North African theatre for the first time, as the Valendians, who also roll-over Chrinthanium, try to chase-down the remains of the Confederation, and the Celts probably picture themselves marching right through the Byzantine Empire to link-up with their Allies at Suez. Not that it quite works out...


Napoleon also exists in AMW, all be it as a Valendian who ends up getting his grand army whittled down by angry clansmen in the wilds of Geletia, but he's a potential invader of all or part of the Confederacy if you want such interference around that time.

Thanks! :)

The Confederation can live without Cyprus, as long as there is Sinai to maintain a foothold in the east Med. Cyprus would lop off 1 mil pop and 925K sq. km or area, not a great loss. ;)

The old Roman Empire would've been hostile to the barbarians, especially the Celts (conquering Gaul as IRL), so when the (Western) Roman Empire declined, the sack of Rome occurred and the ended the Empire. Some of the city-states could've plausibly been formed by invading Celts, too. There could be a Celtic Lombard Kingdom. Or the formerly-Celtic now-Italianized tribe of Veneti forming Venetia. (Although I'd probably also need some Germanic tribes who wander into Italy, as mercenaries or as sacking tribes. Chaos must be exploited by more chaos. Gives diversity too.)

The establishment of the Confederation would have least a blanket of security for Rome against land-based invasions, as a wide swath of northern Italy from Genoa to Venetia is Confederate territory. Rome's enemies would either had to ask for access or declare war against the Confederation (with a good mighty fleet and a decent army then) to reach Rome by land. That surprise invasion may have happened in the Great War (which we might again need to reform, which of course, would stimulate activity some more). Great Powers don't necessarily respect neutrality. :P Invading Italy in the Great War would be the equivalent of invading Switzerland during WWII - only that this Switzerland is several times larger. Which would cause widespread guerrilla warfare and tie down huge numbers of regular troops. They might have not conquered the entire peninsula, mountainous Calabria could've been a holdout. Italian naval superiority in the Mediterranean would've deterred the taking of Sicily, Sardinia, or South Mediterranean/North Africa, which would then be the sources of soldiers for the liberation of the occupied areas. Then after the long chaos, the Confederation overhauls its government to the present form.

I'm still thinking as to whether I need Napoleon. I might use him as that bogeyman to scare Rome into adherence into the Confederacy.
Last edited by Hibernordia on Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Chrinthanium
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Postby Chrinthanium » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:26 am

Glad to see that you're back, Kyle. Have fun being threatened by Beddgelert. Trust me, it's awesome. Oh, you have my blessing with one exception: let's keep to borders already present on the map in Sinai. Not sure what that would do to your population, but people despise the extra math and research involved in trying to piece together those types of claims.
Last edited by Chrinthanium on Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Beddgelert
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Postby Beddgelert » Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:20 am

Hibernordia wrote:The old Roman Empire would've been hostile to the barbarians, especially the Celts (conquering Gaul as IRL), so when the (Western) Roman Empire declined, the sack of Rome occurred and the ended the Empire. Some of the city-states could've plausibly been formed by invading Celts, too. There could be a Celtic Lombard Kingdom. Or the formerly-Celtic now-Italianized tribe of Veneti forming Venetia. (Although I'd probably also need some Germanic tribes who wander into Italy, as mercenaries or as sacking tribes. Chaos must be exploited by more chaos. Gives diversity too.)

The establishment of the Confederation would have least a blanket of security for Rome against land-based invasions, as a wide swath of northern Italy from Genoa to Venetia is Confederate territory. Rome's enemies would either had to ask for access or declare war against the Confederation (with a good mighty fleet and a decent army then) to reach Rome by land. That surprise invasion may have happened in the Great War (which we might again need to reform, which of course, would stimulate activity some more). Great Powers don't necessarily respect neutrality. :P Invading Italy in the Great War would be the equivalent of invading Switzerland during WWII - only that this Switzerland is several times larger. Which would cause widespread guerrilla warfare and tie down huge numbers of regular troops. They might have not conquered the entire peninsula, mountainous Calabria could've been a holdout. Italian naval superiority in the Mediterranean would've deterred the taking of Sicily, Sardinia, or South Mediterranean/North Africa, which would then be the sources of soldiers for the liberation of the occupied areas. Then after the long chaos, the Confederation overhauls its government to the present form.

I'm still thinking as to whether I need Napoleon. I might use him as that bogeyman to scare Rome into adherence into the Confederacy.


Aye, we've always viewed the occupation of the Apennine peninsula as a significant theatre of war in its own right, I think. The Triarchy traditionally fielded three independent armies, and one of them spent most of the war doing nothing but occupying already captured land, while a second froze to death in Gandvik, and a third went back and forth across Anatolia chasing and being chased by the Byzantines. Probably almost the entirety of the (equivalent of the) armies of Serbia, Montenegro, and Albania, plus no doubt police militias raised from those more inclined to collaborate with a brutal occupier than to piss him off, and Athenian troops whom the Celts didn't trust to point their rifles the right way if sent to fight the Byzantines, would be dedicated to fighting resistance forces in occupied Confederate lands from late '39 until at least '44 when more and more tribal chieftains are coming around to the idea of defeat.

As to the fleet, the idea has been for Geletia to essentially take-over the Taranto Raid, all be it launching aircraft from land as we never built any carriers, to deal a significant blow to the strong Italian fleet on day-one of the war. The Geletians too had a fairly significant fleet, though it is Valendia's that's more significant to the Pact of Oak, and between them, in the relative confines of the Med and with the element of surprise and the support of air power, they're likely to cause fairly decisive damage at the opening of hostilities, while most of the Italian fleet isn't disposed for combat (notably, of course, the Pact of Oak, allying Geletia with Valendia, Bohemia, Cassanos, and the Shieldian Empire, remained a secret until after the co-ordinated attacks had begun).

Basically, Italy's horribly isolated after the fall of Swabia and (Iberian) Chrinthanium (the Chrinnies keep fighting, so far as I'm aware, from their colonies) and of Byzantine Crete (the Peloponnese were at that time already under long-standing Geletian occupation). All about keeping the canal open and god only knows what's happening at the Strait of Gibraltar!


Anyway, uh, I'm fine with Kyle coming back in more or less his proposed form.
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Hibernordia
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Postby Hibernordia » Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:40 am

Chrinthanium wrote:Glad to see that you're back, Kyle. Have fun being threatened by Beddgelert. Trust me, it's awesome. Oh, you have my blessing with one exception: let's keep to borders already present on the map in Sinai. Not sure what that would do to your population, but people despise the extra math and research involved in trying to piece together those types of claims.

Thanks! Actually I took the entire land area and population of the two said governorates of egypt, their borders just looked ugly. I can take everything to make it easier. ;)

And I'm not going to hurl Bibles over the Alps to Beddgelert. We know how that ended last time. :P

@Beddgelert: Some Pearl Harbor-ish kind of thing? That's be a great casus belli for the then-neutral Confederation to declare war. With Africa and the islands remaining free, the Chrinnies might have retreated across the Strait of Gibraltar in a Dunkirk-esque evacuation. I'm not sure whether there was an army that liberated peninsular Italy, or whether the rebelling armed population/militia in the mainland simply wore the occupiers off. Probably the latter, unless faraway allies chose Italy over Iberia for another front, if another front opens at all. But I'm sure the demographers would point out the Occupation as the one that caused severe population decline in the mainland (as opposed to emigration IRL Italy). ;)

EDIT: BONUS! A preview of the Confederation! ;)
Last edited by Hibernordia on Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Chrinthanium » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:40 pm

Hibernordia wrote:
Chrinthanium wrote:Glad to see that you're back, Kyle. Have fun being threatened by Beddgelert. Trust me, it's awesome. Oh, you have my blessing with one exception: let's keep to borders already present on the map in Sinai. Not sure what that would do to your population, but people despise the extra math and research involved in trying to piece together those types of claims.

Thanks! Actually I took the entire land area and population of the two said governorates of egypt, their borders just looked ugly. I can take everything to make it easier. ;)

And I'm not going to hurl Bibles over the Alps to Beddgelert. We know how that ended last time. :P

@Beddgelert: Some Pearl Harbor-ish kind of thing? That's be a great casus belli for the then-neutral Confederation to declare war. With Africa and the islands remaining free, the Chrinnies might have retreated across the Strait of Gibraltar in a Dunkirk-esque evacuation. I'm not sure whether there was an army that liberated peninsular Italy, or whether the rebelling armed population/militia in the mainland simply wore the occupiers off. Probably the latter, unless faraway allies chose Italy over Iberia for another front, if another front opens at all. But I'm sure the demographers would point out the Occupation as the one that caused severe population decline in the mainland (as opposed to emigration IRL Italy). ;)

EDIT: BONUS! A preview of the Confederation! ;)


You might be able to assist me, overall, with the issue of the Spanish Autonomous Cities on the African continent. I don't want us to have too much of an ugly history, but, rather than get into the issue of little Chrinthani cities on your landmass, I was wondering if you had any ideas what to do with them when you take over that bit of land.

Also, the map you're using isn't corresponding to anything I can figure out on the official map. Perhaps a list in Egypt would help me out. Though, the map you're using is nice...... is there a hint as to where I can find a blank copy of it?
Last edited by Chrinthanium on Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Hibernordia » Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:17 am

Chrinthanium wrote:You might be able to assist me, overall, with the issue of the Spanish Autonomous Cities on the African continent. I don't want us to have too much of an ugly history, but, rather than get into the issue of little Chrinthani cities on your landmass, I was wondering if you had any ideas what to do with them when you take over that bit of land.

Also, the map you're using isn't corresponding to anything I can figure out on the official map. Perhaps a list in Egypt would help me out. Though, the map you're using is nice...... is there a hint as to where I can find a blank copy of it?

The Spanish enclaves still exist? :eek: Didn't realize that. The Confederation's North African territories arose from the trading posts and settlements that the Italian maritime republics established in North Africa/South Med. Later they quickly expanded to the rest of the coast and hinterland, settling them and populating them with Italians and assimilating the native population (which in my timeline, will not be Muslim... they might have still maintained the religion of the Vandals/barbarians-whichever-they-may-be and their ilk.)

The Republic of Tangier (which would presumably include Ceuta) is an ex-Genoese colony which arose from the expansion of the cities of Tangiers (Tangeri) and Tetouan (Tamuda) to the surrounding lands. Ceuta would've been helpful in keeping the Straits open. The Republic of Fez should have developed from the ex-Pisan common lordship surrounding the cities and trade posts of Al Hoceima, Berkane (Bercania), and Melilla (Meliglia); later on the center of the territory moved to the mountains to the city of Fez. So, to be quite frank, I currently have nothing in mind yet to do with them except to make my - our - borders clean and pretty. ;)

There is a list in the claims, and this was what I'm using for Egypt. Egypt had changed its subdivisions in 2008, 2009, and 2011, perhaps the fickleness of Egypt when it comes to subdividing its country may be to blame. As for the blank map, I'll send you a link via TG.
Kongeriket Ibernorden
an AMW nation
bananas ● beaches ● beauty queens ● canal ● chocolate ● cocaine ● coffee ● copper ● emeralds ● gold ● oil ● potatoes ● silver ● soap operas ● tin
A Modern World: Apply now!DiscussionNews

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