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Nova Gaul
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Posts: 710
Founded: Nov 18, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Gaul » Mon May 13, 2013 7:27 pm

Great points again, all around. I’ll work my way up from the bottom to the top, that’s what she said, right?

Chrin: My main reason for ‘putting the make’ on that Austrian bit was to fill in Dragonland. But as Cass points out, there is a lot more population-wise there than I bargained for. And, in reality, especially since you make the point, I want a French country. No Germans! (Except as mercenaries, so please, I don’t want my claim for one city/town/village in Switzerland forgotten so I can have Swiss Guards). So I support Cass’s idea in his appendage, and withdraw my claim for Austria. And while I am at it, Haiti doesn’t make any sense either. So, scratch that!

My claim would therefore just be BeLux, as it were. But even so, with BeLex being densely populated and highly urban and indeed very industrial, I am left with ‘How did it get this way?’

Now I’ll move up a bit more. I have just been reading up on the Kongo and the Celts (of all people), so I’ll withdraw that bit too. As Chrin said, this is a slap-dash process putting things together! So thanks for bearing with me. Going back to the economy, then. I like that idea about France having an overseas commercial colony, literally the property of a company run by the king (shades of the Congo Free State I suppose). So, in that vein, I propose to add Senegal, Guinea, and Guinea-Bissau (and the Gambia too I suppose) to my claim under the name of the African Free State (État indépendant du Afrique). This would bring the population of my claim a bit up (Belgium, 11mil, Lux, 500, Senegal 13 mil, Guinea 10 mil, and Guinea-Bissau 1.5 mil = +/- 36 mil). However, the majority of the population would be company-serfs in Africa. It would also allow me to explain why France has industry, it supplies the finished goods to the colony and in return receives the raw resources it needs. The raw exploitation of Africa also would allow the Crown to pay the dole to the people, at least up until recently.

Also, it would make the Royal Africa Company a productive venture, and explain why it has investors (probably of an unscrupulous type).

So that is a refined idea.

As to history, WoS, excuse me, obviously I missed a few significant points. Among them that Gandvik was Allied and the Shield was Oakist! Given that I am (proposing) France was always fairly friendly with Valendia, and sought to ally itself to the Shield for many reasons which I listed a few posts back, I’d have to say France was neutral in the Great War..and maybe the Napoleonic wars too (as they disagreed with the revolutionism that brought Napoleon to power?).

Now, ALL that said, I am left going back and wondering if my claim of France would not just be a lot simpler if it was England by itself, with an economy slashed down several notches, so I can have Ye Olde Feudal Kingdom hanging-by-a-thread? Still, though, please don’t forget that one Swiss city, and (of course depending on Ian) the dynamic of a historic tie with the Sheild that paves a way for current and future RP.

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Europe - Prussia
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Posts: 426
Founded: Oct 25, 2009
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Europe - Prussia » Mon May 13, 2013 8:09 pm

Walmington on Sea wrote:EP, I find myself wondering, what did you expect to happen in Borneo? For the rest of it to remain forever Dragonland? What makes Palawan safe from the English Naval Services that couldn't protect Brunei?

As one solution to Brunei's vulnerability, I could always work in a White Raja situation on Borneo, with part of the island ruled historically by an English dynasty that is not technically part of the Walmingtonian Empire, part by the Empire, and part by Valendia, the White Rajas being too weak to risk war with Valendia, and the Walmingtonians not keen to see those two fighting and be forced to change their policy towards the Rajas. In modern times, WoS isn't likely to go around attacking European colonies, and the only question would be over the Great War, and how the Valendian presence survived that... but surely the same question would extend to a colony on Palawan, with English, Emesan, and American warships presumably dominating the region at large.


Hmmmm........ You raise very good points WoS, so i'll try to answer them. My main concern was that it's kinda hard to explain Brunei's existence if Valendia was defeated by the Walmies in the Great War, especially if logic dictates that after the war Brunei should be joined the Walmingtonian Empire or at least regained independence. So I began to ponder, "what reasons could have Walmington to allow the continuation of Brunei's union with Valendia?" and I came with nothing. So I thought to skip the hassle and move my claim to a small and seemingly unnoticed island in SE Asia.

However, you have raised some very good suggestions so I don't think making such switch is not going to be necessary, with not to mention that I wasn't at 100% of my cerebral capabilities yesterday, so yeah, let's not go there please....

About the history between Walmington and Valendia in Borneo, well maybe at some point in history the Sultanate of Brunei dominated the entire island until Valendia came and conquered the Sultanate's capital and surrounding lands, thus sending the rest of the Sultanate into a civil war that the Walmingtonians took advantage to conquer the rest of Borneo? Also, I don't know how the Walmies handle that part of their Empire (I don't wish another Dra-pol thank you~) but I suppose that the relations are cordial at least, with Brunei becoming very quiet during the Great war due the internal struggle between the locals and the Chevalier-appointed officers and governor-general. Ugh, this reminds me that I really need to finish that piece that I was writing about Brunei.

Anyway WoS, I'm open to suggestions.

Now about NG's claim, well, The main concern has been promptly addressed, so there's isn't much more to say from my part aside working out our shared history. About the African claim, I don't really mind, especially after the context of this colony was explained. I don't know what the rest is going to say though.......

Also, I'm sorry NG but I have to say no about your request about a Swiss city. It would be simply too weird and too hard to explain a French enclave so close to the Empire's heartland :meh:
Last edited by Europe - Prussia on Tue May 14, 2013 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nova Gaul
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Founded: Nov 18, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Gaul » Mon May 13, 2013 8:19 pm

Also, I'm sorry NG but I have to say no about your request about a Swiss city. It would be simply too weird and too hard to explain a French enclave so close to the Empire's heartland


Nooooooo! Can we at least have a gentlemen's agreement that real 'Swiss' people can find employment by the French for uch purposes? Or do I have to concoct a whole other people altogether, like the Varangians a while back? I cannot stress to you, EP, how much it means for me to have a Swiss Guard. But, if you are opposed to it, I can always become more creative I suppose. Nonetheless. Alternatively, Cass, since you have a canton of 'Switzerland', would you be amenable to Swiss finding employment in such a way, especially if France had beenconsistently neutral towards you which might be the case, apparently?
Last edited by Nova Gaul on Mon May 13, 2013 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nova Gaul
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Founded: Nov 18, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Gaul » Mon May 13, 2013 10:06 pm

So, to clutter up the thread even more… (want to get as much information down as is possible while I have spare time – thank you, those of you who I’ve TG’ed with more detailed questions/petitions for assistance).

Basically…what I desire is a Bourbon-state. That is primary. That it is in Europe is in fact secondary, for the reasons of 1) having people to RP with and 2) I understand it somewhat better. That said, such a state could conceivably exist anywhere in the world – though I’d like to avoid Asia, because that would be to close to my beloved Emesa.

That out of the way, there seem to be several avenues I can take to officially apply as this nation. I also think that the geography would have to be situated before a working history, outside of the basics, could be drawn up.

1- the original, for England or a part thereof, with an economy adjusted to reflect governmental policies of the French monarchy circa 1788.*
2- Be(1/4?)ne)lux(?/?)Aus. With perhaps part of Austria, part of Germany, and part of the Netherlands, along the lines Cass will have to help work out further. Including an economy appropriate to the governmental model I’m suggesting.
3- my most recent Belux w/a colony in Africa suggestion. Again, with adjusted economy.
4- something else? Should I just try and plant the state in America? (Truth be told, in many respects, not the least of which little opportunity to RP, this is by far the least attractive idea to me. So unattractive, in fact, that it kills my desire to even try it...no offense to any state in America)

I think that’s pretty much it, simplified. I want to make it clear I’m not ‘shopping’ for a country in a particular region, to allay Chrin’s concern, but trying to create a realistic state that would be fun to RP. Of these three options, then, which do you all would think works best? Option 1 seems to be the simplest and most straight forward, and has the potential of being the easiest to keep neutral and thus less tied to histories already written. However, people seem to be worried about me having a high population and/or too strong an economy. 2 seems to be the most popular, at least from what Cass and WoS have suggested, but also to my lights would be the most complicated. 3 seems to be a mix on 1 and 2, but I can already see how some might say its too controversial.

Naturally I don’t want an insignificant country, I want to be able to affect events if I RP. Neither do I want to seem like I am making a grab for power. In any case, I just thought I’d lay everything on the table. And sorry to have gotten so hung up on the Swiss, in any case I am sure I can overcome that if it is an issue.

*Perhaps I can reiterate a more simplified France-in-England? It would be easier to maintain neutrality that way, have a more rural populace and less industrial economy, etc. If the population worries people, perrahps cut France off just below Liverpool, but include Wales...of the top of my pointy I think that might bring the population down to about 30 million but with the iron and coal of Wales would still give me the resources to have something of industry.
Last edited by Nova Gaul on Mon May 13, 2013 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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United Kongo
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Founded: Dec 15, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby United Kongo » Tue May 14, 2013 12:57 am

Well like WoS said the Congo already had an established history with Tsag and Geletian colonies, however I can see a way in which A French Colonial presence in the Congo could exist.

Perhaps during the early 19th century when the Romans begin to sell off their Trading Posts to the
Tsags, a number of them were also sold to French prospectors. Then Later when the Tsags invade the Kongolese Sultanate Perhaps they are joined by the French. This could lead to a period of joint control over the now Kongolese puppet state from 1865-1888, probably via a United Congolese company or two separate companies. After 1888 I guess either the Congo is completely annexed to the Tsags with the French retaining significant rights in the colony or either the Congo being split between French and Tsag portions.

I think the second option could work well if the French state included part of Austria as perhaps it allows some French involvement in the Saimonoan war (no doubt they would be threatened by a rising Geletia as well), that perhaps would see the French lose the colony to the Geletians. Bedd and Jatriqya should probably consulted about this.

Regardless of what is worked out, I’d imagine the French would get the whole Congo after the Great War (even if they were neutral) only to reluctantly give the colony independence a few years later. Plus it could explain a Congolese émigré population in France in which to draw upon for the army.

Anyway its up to you, but if you would rather have France involved in the Congo than another colony the option is open

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Iansisle
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Iansisle » Tue May 14, 2013 1:22 am

Ah, things! They're happening!

(quickly tries to brush his own inactivity back under the rug.)

Ah, yes, history. The best talking point in AMW. :) I don't have any real objections to the suggestions, or at least none that Walmington didn't mention (the Oakist nature of things, etc). I would like to point out, however -- and this is in response to more of a general feeling that I've gotten from several posters, not just NG, than a specific instance -- that the Shield is not a direct Russia analogue. Yes, it's big and in eastern Europe, but the differences I think are much more telling -- starting just with the fact that the people are Catholic and Germanic instead of Orthodox and Slavic, for one thing, and going through the history and culture.

And, yes, LRR, I promise replies are coming. >.>

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Beth Gellert
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Beth Gellert » Tue May 14, 2013 6:44 am

Could the Borneo question -that of why on earth the Walmies didn't annex or liberate Brunei during or after the Great War- be answered by saying that... they did?

Sort of. What I mean is, based on what I've read so far I wonder, what if Valendian Brunei in 1939 covered all of, say, Sarawak, then the White Rajas could rule up in Sabah, and the Walmingtonian Empire in Kalimantan, or something like that. When the Great War breaks out, the relatively weak White Raja, who wants to expand his power but could never previously dare fight Valendia directly for fear that WoS couldn't help him without provoking a wider conflict, sees his opportunity, and invades the Valendian colony. The native light infantry quickly over-run most of Sarawak and maybe even receive local support, but Brunei-proper is perhaps defended by a relatively strong Valendian garrison, and the Great War is going badly for Walmington, so the Raja is keen to find a speedy resolution before things get worse and Valendian reinforcements show up. Thus he, perhaps surrounding modern Brunei and 'brassing it out' in the finest English tradition that leaves the defenders believing they're about to be over-run by an army of savages lead by heretics, negotiate the formal hand-over of most of Sarawak in exchange for lifting the siege of Brunei-proper. The deal could include some sort of commitment to neutrality in the Great War from both the Raja and the much-reduced Valendian colony, meaning that there's no urgency for WoS to invade.

#BGsWackySuggestions

On Congo, well, whatever works, I suppose. Probably a lot of details will have to wait until we know whether or not France ends up bordering Geletia and/or Tsalland, because that's likely to have a direct impact on the Great War and by extension on who takes-over after the Geletian armistice.

Either way, I should probably establish a small Congolese minority in Geletia, drawn from the most loyal tribes, eh? That'll be interesting. Celticised Congolese in the hills of Kosovo? XD

As to the notion of the four of us splitting the, uh, Central European Gap between us, as has already been mentioned I've briefly annexed Burgenland before, and almost done so permanently on more than one occasion, so I'd be happy to discuss that again, and/or consider sticking a few bits back on what used to be Tsalland (given that Tsalland did originally cover most of that territory), be it Ionia, Dubeanach, or both.
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Chrinthania
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Founded: Oct 05, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chrinthania » Tue May 14, 2013 5:20 pm

Time to make Ian drain the whole bottle....

I was throwing this idea around in my mind for a while, and I'd like to ditch Hawaii and use this for a second claim.

The Democratic Republic of Icarie
Location: Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina
Population: 22,661,663 (Information gathered from US Census Bureau, 2012 Estimate)
Capital: Raleigh
Largest City: Charlotte
Leader: Chairman of the People's Party, Michael Featherstone
GDP: 226 Billion
GDP per capita: 10,000
National Motto: Libertas et Veritas (Liberty and Truth)

HIstory:

What I'd like to do is dependent upon who would be interested in being the original colonizer. I really do see a large Walmingtonian influence early, with, French Icarians moving into the picture later on. I'm not sold on whether or not there was a military revolution against the colonizer or if it were more a peaceful exchange (perhaps similar to how Chrinthania and Walmington had their split earlier). Perhaps it was caught up in the struggles between the French-Americans and the Walmingtonians, eventually carving itself out of the chaos.

Once independence is granted, the nation becomes a democratic republic, which begins to fail in the early 20th century due to the dust bowl and the Great Depression. Through the economic turmoil caused by the depression, a new socialist movement gains steam and, by 1945, gains control of the government. During the later half of the 20th century, a less rigid socialist system in instituted through economic and social reforms, granting more and more rights to the people.

Government:

The country is ruled by the People's Party, whose power is granted by the Constitution of the nation. The current Chairman of the People's Party is Michael Featherstone. At the local level, city and county governments are directly-elected by the people. However, promotion into the middle ranks and above is generally granted only by the Supreme Council of the People's Party. Unlike similar regimes, the People's Party is socially liberal, allowing the people the freedom to make their own choices.

The People's Congress is the legislative body of the national government. Congressmen are selected based on merit from lower government entities at the State and Local levels.

The judicial branch consists of the Court of the People, headed by the Supreme Court. The 5 justices that make up the Supreme Court are selected by the People's Congress based on merit. Lower judges are selected by the same method, with local-level judges being directly elected by the people.

The People's Party is, by far, the largest political party in the nation. There are several small political parties allowed under the Constitution, but, since 1945, they've made up no more than 10% of the elected government.

Economy:

After the revolution in 1945, the People's Economy was a planned economy without private enterprise or capitalism included. During the 1960s, however, Chairman Arthur Engels pushed for economic reform, blending the economy with mixed results. Today, the People's Economy is a mixed economy under one-party rule. The national resources, means of production and distribution, are held in trust to the people by the government.

The economy is a small, mostly agrarian economy built to sustain the population. Private enterprise, though, is used as the means from which to feed the greater economy. It is through permitted private companies that highways, railways, and even communities were built. The current government seeks to add more reforms to the economy to allow for some foreign investment under a cap-system, permitting no more than 15% of the entire economy to be held by foreign investors.

The state's industrial output are textiles, chemicals, electrical equipment, paper and pulp and paper products, and shipbuilding.

Agricultural products include: tobacco, soy, tomatoes, wines and grapes, cattle, hogs, chickens, corn, and peanuts. The economy also has a large agribusiness community that processes and manufactures food products for sale to the people.

Society:

The nation revolves around equality. Persons, regardless of label, are needed to ensure that society and the nation prosper. Education is mandatory until age 18. Higher learning, such as university, is granted to all citizens who serve their mandatory 4-year enlistment in the national armed services (detailed below). While in more authoritarian regimes, the career to which a citizen is enrolled is granted upon a series of skill-assessment tests, the Government allows the people the right to chose for themselves their own careers based on the needs of the people but in a setting in which supply is never exponentially greater than demand.

Military:

Icarie maintains a defense force for the protection of its borders against its enemies. As a small nation, it does not have the capability of power projection far from its shores. The National Defense Force consists of an Army (the largest branch), an Air Force (2nd largest branch), and a Navy (smallest branch). Adding to the overall numbers of the national armed services is the People's Home Guard, a national guard program. Enlistment in the military is mandatory for all persons 18-22. After the mandatory 4-year enlistment in the armed services, people are automatically enrolled into the reserves for the next six to eight years depending upon their job in the military. It is strongly encouraged, but not mandatory, that people re-enlist in the reserves after their original reserve duty.
Last edited by Chrinthania on Tue May 14, 2013 5:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Nova Gaul
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Founded: Nov 18, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Gaul » Tue May 14, 2013 7:30 pm

So, gentlemen, after giving this matter much thought I’ve rather postulated that the place that makes the most sense to place ‘France’ is England, my original idea.

Mainly, the BeLex (or Benelux, or whatever combination might have been) is too crowded, too filled with industry, and too dependant on the whims of its neighbors. I decided I really don’t want France to have a colony (excepting an RP with the Kongo and competition with the Celts, I’ll get to that) and most I all I want it to be rural: not rural in the sprawling sense of the Shield, but in an organized, fairly tidy way. Just like France was, before the Revolution. Not rich by any standards, but not materially poor, not starving. In fact, the countryside probably eats fairly well and good food (and beer, not wine). How about that, the French would be known for the quality of their ale? Anyway, amid the idyllic countryside and charming villages you also have the manor houses of the nobility, much as you still have the country houses in England today, so this is not a big leap at all. As well, the countryside would be littered with monasteries and churches.

Another point, I would like to technically ‘drain’ the population of all England’s cities…except Birmingham a.k.a. Neuchâtel (which I would increase, as France’s main industrial city) and Londres (which I would keep as is, as France’s cultural and economic capitol)…and disperse the excess population to smaller villages and towns in the countryside.

As one very helpful TG put it, perhaps the idea of France in England will not seem so threatening to the community when it is realized that this country will have the disadvantages of both and the benefits of neither: that is it does not have the bourgeois ethic of England or the geographic diversity of France while HAVING the English weather and querulous French mentality. Working with a government circa 1788 the kingdom would be planned from the top-down, subsequently the expectations of government planners at Versailles (outside St. Albans) of putting a rail line there or and canal there, while they looked neat on a map, contribute nothing whatsoever to growing the economy. And the cities, particularly Neuchâtel, would be a far cry from the pleasant countryside: harsh working conditions, inept management, frustrated entrepreneurs who have to deal with endless aristocratic-bureaucratic red tape, rising unemployment, outright persecution of trade unions, and in the case where something productive is accomplished it is the result of bribes. .

Economy: I would halve England’s economy outright from 2.68 trillion to 1.34 trillion, bringing the per capita to 25,000…if that is too little I shall continue on! But consider that 90% of that wealth would be concentrated in the hands of about 5% of the population. So I am by no means done on this topic, just starting. Also where as RL England moved from a mostly manufacturing economy to a more service economy in the 1970s, the reverse would be true for France, not even the reverse, where the economy would be: manufacturing, agricultural, and service. Again, I am by no means done here, so feel free to critique. IF people think England has too large a population, I’d happily lop off the north of England parallel to the Mersey River and M56. I would like to add Wales though, or at least some parts of the rich iron and coal laden parts if people think that is too much population.

History: Pretty much the same as I outlined earlier, in regards to the Belkan conquests, the Bourbons came to power in England and led the Franks there, who became the French. France would not have sided openly with Napoleon I imagine,…but since I really don’t know much if anything about the Napoleonic Wars in AMW, I won’t say anything further about that just yet.

A few changes…

…I imagine that any Shieldian-French Alliance occurred after the Great War, because given France’s affinity for the pope, it is hard to imagine them fighting against Rome (this would still allow the current king to be married to James sister—and Ian, this would be remarkably similar to the history of France and Austria (Germanic) which culminated in Louis XVI marrying Marie Antoinette). What France could have done to actually help the alliance in another question. France’s navy, given its poorer status that RL England by far, would not be a formidable force, at least compared with the Royal Navy. But they would have been ‘allied’, much good it would do the allies I suppose.

…I will also take the United Kongo up on his offer, and think maybe capital ‘gained’ from the Kongo region allowed France to industrialize, such as it did, between the 1850s and 1950s. Around 1850 might see the foundation of the Royal Africa Company. I also love the idea of the French and Geletians competing for influence in the Kongo! I don’t think France will have anything to do with Austria, but there’s no reason France might have had a go at the Tsags in an overseas colonial war, an opponent they might actually be able to handle.

And, since France probably (very corruptly) saved up most of the resources the Allies gave it to fight on their behalf for a more useful occasion, I think it is reasonable that perhaps after the Great War the French (probably little affected comparatively) used those weapons to secure the entirety of the Kongo, maybe even calling it the dubious Kongo Free State. However the French probably did give independence as freely as they could—because I’d very much like there to still be a few links between the French and Kongolese. Yes, I know they are socialist, but given the corrupt diplomacy of the French, I don’t see a reason the two states couldn’t still have relations, allowing us to RP.

And yes, that would allow France to have a great population of Kongolese expats too.

I’ll stop there for now, as this is not even an official proposal yet. Let the criticisms and suggestion begin!

((I also love the idea of transforming the Tower of London into the Bastille, a perfect fit))
Last edited by Nova Gaul on Tue May 14, 2013 7:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Chrinthania
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Founded: Oct 05, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chrinthania » Wed May 15, 2013 5:23 am

Well, I'll shoot first and ask questions later.

1: Is England's population too large? Well, if you're only claiming England itself, that leaves a very interesting dangling bit of dragonland known as Scotland and Wales. The two together wouldn't really add tremendously to the population. If I were you, I'd just take the whole of Albion. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

2: You really don't need permission to drain the population of any area and shift it around in your claim as you like it. You know how we do it--providing it makes sense, it'll work.

3: You and I both know just how fluid economics is in AMW. So, prepare for good news or bad news depending on how the economy is put together. I'm not an economics guy, but, I think that 25,000 is not going to be on the too-low side of the equation. In my humble, but flawed opinions, I find that to be more on the high end of acceptable.

4: History, as I said before, can be modified as it develops to fit in with the general gist of everyone else's. As far as concrete history at this point, I'll never be picky there.

5: As far as Roman history works, did they ever make it to England as they did IRL? Also, if the French-British have an affinity for the Pope, then they'd be hard pressed to stand against Rome prior to 1950, where standing against the Pope was one-in-the-same as standing against Rome. After 1950, there becomes a clear distinction between the Catholic Church and Rome itself after we blamed the Pope for causing Geletia to invade during the onset of the Great War and basically told him to but out of Roman politics.

6: If there's anything you need Rome to do historically, then let me know and we can work it out.

So, I guess those are my comments regarding the application.
Last edited by Chrinthania on Wed May 15, 2013 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Acadzia
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Founded: Nov 15, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Acadzia » Wed May 15, 2013 7:31 am

Just chiming in to say that I'm still here, and have no objections to Icarie or France.

Britain is some fine real estate, and it'd be nice to fill the holes in Europe. But I'm not in any way opposed to Britain if you can't make the latter work.
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Cassanos
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Founded: Dec 30, 2006
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Cassanos » Wed May 15, 2013 8:32 am

While I would certainly like to see Dragonland disappear from the European mainland, I can understand your reasoning for choosing England. That being said, I have to admit I am reluctant to agree to France taking all of Britain. For a secondary claim, this would be a bit large in my eyes, and if enlarging the claim seems like a good idea in the future, we could always add more territory.
I like Jean's idea of cutting off the North West, North East and the Yorkshire/Humber region and adding Wales to the claim. That would leave enough territory in Scotland and North England for a possible future claimant, while adding Wales with its relatively small population would give France an industrial base and enough room for all those latifundia. That would net France around 40 million people, which I believe is enough for our purposes.

Second, I think reducing the GDP further would be reasonable - not to weaken France, but Britain's current wealth came with being a financial and banking centre, and I don't think Londres would be as important as a stock exchange. A GDP per capita of some 15,000USD might work out better, given the importance of heavy industries and farming, while being high enough to allow the upper class to live in excessive wealth.

Other than that, I am fine with the claim and I'm looking forward to having Nibelung politicians rant against backwards feudalists ;).

As for the general idea of putting France into Britain, I refer to Captain The Lord Edmund Blackadder.

/EDIT: Re: The Swiss Guard, I was actually about to offer you to use one of my Swiss villages as an origin for your recruits. I think Thayngen's name sounds fitting somehow. Now, note that serving in a foreign military is forbidden under Nibelung law, and the judges will be even less lenient if it means serving an absolute monarchy. So, while a formal treaty about this is out of the question, there is nothing that would have prevented a number of Thayngeners from moving to France a long time ago. Or perhaps a band of mercenaries from that region wound up in French service during one European war or another and founded a settlement in France. My point being that a Nibelung-Swiss regiment would be possible, even though only few of its members would be actual Nibelung expatriates who moved to France to serve le Roi.
Last edited by Cassanos on Wed May 15, 2013 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Amyclae
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Postby The Amyclae » Wed May 15, 2013 2:53 pm

Right. Things are happening and I like things to happen so I have no things to say.
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Nova Gaul
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Founded: Nov 18, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Gaul » Wed May 15, 2013 6:41 pm

Thanks again so much everyone for your quick and helpful responses. I think we have really formalized this claim of mine…So then: the claim would formally be England and Wales, south of the Mersey River and M56 parallel, that is, just below Greater Liverpool and Manchester.

I think Cass had the population about right, and that number is perfect for me. I will do the math in time. (for some reason Chrin, Scotland just was never part of my vision, you know? And Scotland + North England is a good claim for somebody, and the Dragonland doesn’t bother me. While we’re on the subject of Dragonland, is the fellow playing Ireland still around?), Ditto for the GDP Cass! Enough to claim the rural population lives well if not rich, enough to make France a respectable if not powerful state, while also enough to claim the industrial workers have it pretty rough and the rich live like, well, kings! Latifundia indeed, love the idea of all these charming châteaux scattered about France, farmers trundling off to market happily doffing their berets as the seigneur careens past in a Porsche. Quite giddy with anticipation. And Versailles at St. Albans, hard to get past the delicious irony of that! And I cannot say how well the tower of London will fit the bill to become the Bastille. I mean, perfection.

And I simply cannot thank you ENOUGH Cass for your kind offer of the Swiss, which I accept greedily with both hands. My France is now complete, thank you. I’ll flesh out their history later, I am sure it is interesting whatever it might be uniforms first, history second, that’s what I say!

Chrin, regarding ancient history, I don’t see any reason not to have a Roman Britain as was, or however you would like history to have unfolded. I suppose at some points the Franks came into Britain, probably simultaneous to their rolling into France. Only difference is (I think) maybe the Belkans never conquered England? I don’t know, still some history there I need to has out with Valendia I think. Upshot is, yes, the Kingdom of France would have been solidly Catholic since the olden days. Perhaps seen as the Franco power faithful to the Church, where as Valendia often wandered from the Faith and allowed heresy (and blasphemous revolutionism).

That said, given France is an absolute monarchy, an egotistical Bourbon one at that, I am sure there were clashes of authority. I can well envision that after the Great War (which the pope probably, more or less, forced France to get involved with as the faithful country it is) Louis XIV [tentatively 1940-1995] tried his hand at Gallicanism, using the pope’s weakened authority as an opportunity to try and assert more control over the Church in France, just as he was attempting to assert more control over the Royal Africa Company in the Congo (history with United Kongo pending and TBD). But this would never approach the level of heresy of schism, and at the end of the day the pope could rest assured that Le Roi Très-chrétien (title-pending from the popes ;)) would always support Rome. Even today, this means that France and the Roman Empire are on fairly good terms.

Still a lot of history to work out with Valendia. And with every country in AMW in fact! But if things are okay as is I shall press on with a formal factbook and perhaps before too long RP?

And while we are on the subject of new nations, I also happily support Icarie.

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Beddgelert
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Postby Beddgelert » Wed May 15, 2013 6:56 pm

Swiss Guard, Beefeaters, Yeoman of the Guard, whatever...

On history, bear in mind that the Shield only joined the Pact of Oak in secret, and until 1939 everyone thought it was still part of the wider Catholic fold, so there's no reason France couldn't have considered herself an ally until then. On the Congo, apparently it was pioneered for Europe by Rome, sold off to Tsalland when Rome decided that, yeah, empire-building starts closer to home, and this is ridiculous, and then surrendered to Geletia only in 1916, after the Saimonan War in which Geletia over-ran Tsalland. Geletia's over-seas empire was very much an accidental one... we never wanted to be a colonial power, we just inherited Congo from Tsalland. And then defended it murderously for 29 years, until it was handed back to Tsalland, and decided it didn't like that.

Shoehorn France in there somewhere, sure.

Cass's proposed GDP is about Russia-level, so yeah, you can certainly have a rich elite and deprived mass on that! What better example could there be?
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Chrinthania
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Postby Chrinthania » Wed May 15, 2013 7:23 pm

I think my idea is getting slipped through the cracks here (points up several posts).
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Nova Gaul
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Postby Nova Gaul » Wed May 15, 2013 8:48 pm

Certainly sounds good to me Chrin.

I know you have Mod to provide local 'French', but feel free to use 'France' itself (I think I can use that name now) if you have a need to regarding history.

I also look foward to coming up with a history with United Kongo and BG about France's involvement there. Given that I didn't much care for Tsalland as a state, I'd also love to have a few colonial wars off Africa maybe. Given France's capability, I think the Tsags may have been about their speed. France would be happy to participate in any and all imperialism as regards the Congo (and I would love to have a current RP) and I await what Kongo himself has to say.

Good points on Ian too BG. I'm afraid in coming up with a state I've kind of shoved a lot of information at him, so I'll see what the Shield might have thought of France before I go anymore about that.

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Chrinthanium
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Postby Chrinthanium » Wed May 15, 2013 9:01 pm

We may have a map crisis with your proposed borders. The underlying issue being that the Mersey River doesn't bisect the landmass, and I can't determine if the M56 goes across the landmass or not (crazy roads, England... crazy roads). What, exactly, are you claiming in England and Wales in detail?
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Nova Gaul
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Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Gaul » Wed May 15, 2013 9:11 pm

Hmm. In England I think we could take the M56 to the A628 to the A635 to the M180? Basically the claim for England is everything south of the Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Hull. I guess maybe the M62 would work if we understood I’m not claiming Manchester? I know, so convoluted. Wales though, I think the whole lot. Thank you Chrin.

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Europe - Prussia
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Postby Europe - Prussia » Wed May 15, 2013 11:09 pm

Regarding the common history between Valendia and France, the beginning is already established, which is the circumstances that led to France's creation: a group of Franks which crossed the channel escaping the Belkan wars of conquests. With the mainland conquered, the Belkans would had no need cross the channel because their objective was the unification of the mainland countries and the foundation of the Empire, not the eradication of "France". So, it would depend mostly on the French if the peace treaty was signed under good terms or hostile terms. The Belkans would have taken a more "meh" approach, expecting the French to remain in their island and away from mainland Europe.

About the pre-"France's foundation" history, maybe you could leave it like RL? I mean, the part where William the Conqueror conquers England, or at least base it on a similar situation. In my history, I established Normandy as a vassal of the French kings prior to the unification wars, and as such it should give you a foothold in Britain by the time of the wars of unification.

After this, well, it would depend in what stances France took in each dynastic crisis and fights for the throne of Valendia's history. There's the Revolution of the Lillies, with a guest appearance of Jeanne d' Arc; the War of the Lions, which is a shorter and bloodier version of Thirty Years War; the Glorious Revolution, which led to Napoleon's ascension; aaaaand the Great War, which is more known to us.....

Regarding the Napoleonic Wars, that's a somewhat nebulous issue, but the gist of it (or what I understand so far) is that Napoleon bulldozed his way through Europe until he arrived to Geletia, which became AMW's Russia. Then, when he returned to Valendia to muster another army to attack the Celts, Napoleon was promptly arrested and sent to the chopper's block.

Oh and NG, I have a question: do you mind if the mother of my current Emperor is/was a french princess? a dynastic connection could explain France's neutrality in the war, or at least the Valendian War Theater......
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United Kongo
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Ex-Nation

Postby United Kongo » Wed May 15, 2013 11:37 pm

Ha Ha let me try and break down the History of Europeans in the Congo a bit.
It starts with Roman traders arriving in 15th century along the coasts who are not so much interested in conquering the region as they of just getting all that tasty gold, Ivory, Slaves, and so really just limit themselves to just a few coastal forsts and trading with the dominant Kongolese Sultanate.

Around the Early 19th century with Trade declining between the Romans and the Kongolese (an Islamic revolution in the Kongo Sultante several years before saw a rejection of Western influence), mean that the forts basically became worthless expenses and the Romans happily sold them to the Tsags, something similar to the Alaska purchase IRL I imagine.

The Tsags however have bigger ambitions and invade the Sultanate and force the Sultan to submit to Tsag authority. Between the 1860s to 1880s the Kongolese Sultanate still technically exist under Tsag “Protection” (Something along the lines of the Belgians in the Congo Free state), who are reducing the state to more and more of a colony, until they outright annex the area in the late 1880s.

I’d imagine the Geletians at first kind of don’t really care about getting the colony in 1916, but maybe to really see the benefits when the cash starts rolling in from those mines and plantations. Maybe it also looked good for propaganda purposes. Anyway by the End of the Great war the Geletian having been on the losing side (although it seems not a total defeat) gives up the colony to the newly recreated Tsalland, who quickly decide it isn’t worth the economic drain and give the Congolese independence. Wow.

So as for French involvement. I guess the first point of involvement should be around the same time as the Tsags get involved, so either the French decide to buy some of the Roman forts themselves or establish their own independently. Regardless I’d imagine there would be some cooperation between Tsalland and France with the initial invasion of the Sultanate and the co ruling of they’re new “Protectorate”. Maybe around this period the French and Tsags begin to divide the Congo into spheres of influence so that when the region is formally annexed, it is divided into the French and Tsag Congo Territories respectively.

I like the idea of some Colonial conflicts in the Congo between the Tsags and French, something I would have imagined would have generally favoured the French. As well as resources, a key catalyst for conflict would most likely be who controls the cities of Kinshasa-Nkuna(Brazzaville) and the vital outlet from the Congo basin to the Atlantic. Now after 1916 the Geletians get the Tsag part. I would preferably like to see the entire Congo area united under Geletian rule for some point to create a sense of historical unity to the states borders, so perhaps there is another Colonial conflict at some point between 1916 and 1939 that sees the French lose their colony. Maybe the French started it by attempting to exploit the initial weak Geletian presence in the Colony? Plus it would could provide an incentive for the French to enter the Great war on the basis of getting back the Congo? I’ll leave that with the two of you to think on that I guess.

Whatever we decide I think the Geletians losing the Congo at the end of the Great war makes sense, as does the colony being transferred to the French. You mentioned France granting the Congo independence so perhaps the French attempt to squash any independence movements initially, before resolving to give the colony independence, after making sure that the Royal Africa Company retains exclusive economic rights in the country, probably letting the French meddle in the Congo until the end of the civil war in the late 1980s when the Hardcore Choasists throw them out.

As for current rps, I could think of perhaps some involvement of the French and Congolese Crime Syndicates? Blood Diamonds?

@Bed Haha I like that idea of a Congolese expatriate community. Perhaps the more humanitarian side of the Celts let Congolese refugees into the state during the 1980s? (of course only if they weren’t Abrahamic). Would these Congolese be considered proper Celts or no better then Slavs, Greeks and Christian under Chivo's empire, out of curiosity.

@Chrin, yeah I like it, a nice moderate Socialist state to show the world not every Socialist out their is a Crazy Choaist! Would this state have incorporated Slavery at some point in it's history?

Also just to clear things up as I fear I may have confused a great many people.

Congo refers to the post-Colonial state, and Congolese being the denonym for anyone in the Congo, regardless of ethnicity.

Kongo refers to the Pre-Colonial Islamic empire that dominated the region and Kongolese is an old fashioned name for the Bakongo ethnic group

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Nova Gaul
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Founded: Nov 18, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Gaul » Thu May 16, 2013 2:22 am

E-P: Good ideas, and I agree totally. By my lights I could postulate…

First it was (‘X’, maybe the Celts...might save me some trouble as regards Wales and would be a fitting homage to BG!), then it was Roman, then it was (‘X’ again, I’ll have to wait and see what BG thinks about the Celtic idea) then came the Normans. Voila.

Perhaps when the Belkans conquered the continental French (say, the Capétiens Dynasty) this allowed a cadet branch of the Capét family, the Bourbons, to come to power in England…circa what, 1150? 1300?...after the King was dethroned in Paris. Therefore I concur, since the Bourbons were effectively ruling over a new entity, ‘France’, there would be no need for bad blood between the two countries. No more bad blood than say, today, someone living specifically in Hastings has someone living specifically in Rouen. Since the Belkan conquest resulted in an entirely new country, I don’t think we need a peace treaty either, ‘it just was.’

The Glorious Revolution, if anything, probably had the greatest impact on France, as the Bourbons used it as an excuse to dismiss the Estates General (which has remained dissolved these past two hundred some years) and rule absolutely in name as well as fact. I could see the Bourbons supporting Napoleon a bit, however, at least seeing him as an alternative to *shudder* republicans.

As to the dynastic marriage, yes, that would make perfect sense. She could in fact be the daughter of Louis XIV, probably the most important Bourbon in a while, who ruled from roughly 1940-1995. Why not Victoire. As I said I am sure France and Valendia are probably uneasy towards one another, but still have much culturally in common, such a marriage would indeed have been a good way to ensure continued neutrality (if not outright friendship) and secure trade ties. As a matter of fact I wouldn’t even be surprised if the Chunnel was in working order!

United Kongo: All looks good to me. I imagine the French probably tried to dislodge the Tsags, preferably through underhanded diplomacy (or maybe by stirring up the natives), from the minute any spheres of came into being, maybe as early as the 18th Century. If there was any alliance between Tsalland and France it’d be temporary, and the French would like as not betray them before the ink was dry (again, I’m trying for realism).

Probably as you point out there was some colonial-scale warfare outside the Brazzaville Basin (I know AMW France is hardly a naval power, but was probably strong enough to lick the Tsags a few times) that resulted in ever greater Tsag concessions to French interests. Things continue on like this until a number of separate French colonies, companies, and concessions are kicked out by the Geletians in 1916.

It is an interesting idea that France entered the Great War to pry the Congo back from the Celts (I know they were Oakist at least, for goodness sake). Maybe after soliciting material from the Allies by ‘entering’ the war, they devote much of their effort to in fact retaking the Congo? I still have no clue about France in the Great War, but I don’t think it played a too critical role, especially as it wanted to keep both the pope and Valendia happy.

Upshot would be that yes, if you’re amenable, the Congo could be a French colony from, what 1940 to 1955? This would be the period of the Royal Africa Company, which probably picked up exploiting the Congo right where the Celts had left off. Probably founded by Louis XIV (who was CEO). I am sure whatever energy the French didn’t spent on mechanized opponents in the Great War they spent on fighting in the bush. When it became clear the Congo would be free, however, the French probably scale back and begin to actually help the Congolese establish a government, while all the while scheming for the Royal Africa Company to gain rather than lose any influence. Supporting this figurehead or that all the while (which probably is responsible for a large [and probably fairly wealthy] Congolese expat group in Londres, and also several Royal African Regiments even today in the king’s service).

Things would take an unsatisfactory turn with the Choaists, of course, though I imagine the French were quite direct in supporting moderate and right forces in the civil wars, maybe even directly intervening.

Which would lead for a French desire to foment revolution in the Congo even today against the Choaists (maybe there is an empty post-box in Londres with a plaque ‘United Liberty Alliance’ or something). So yes, blood diamonds (for a nation ruled by aristocrats, how perfect?) and crime syndicates sound like a great place to start RPing.

Just my long-winded thoughts, let me know the errors that need correcting.

If it's okay, AMW, I'll start the fact-booking tomorrow (must admit I'm blubbling over to have some ourbons again)

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Beddgelert
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Postby Beddgelert » Thu May 16, 2013 7:31 am

How about claiming ceremonial counties of England up to and including Cheshire, Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire, and Lincolnshire, essentially leaving 'the old north' with Scotland as the remaining Dragonland? I think that'd be a bit over 13.1 million northern English along with 5.3 million Scots for someone else to claim, and would leave nearly 40 million English with 3 million Welsh for NG.

In the Congo, I quite like the idea of Geletia marching in unopposed to the Tsag colony in 1916, the French perhaps trying to use the opportunity to increase their own influence, leading to the Geletians deciding that, hey, these are just more Christians, lets burn them and take their stuff! So Geletia spends the 1916-1939 period not only fighting the foreign-backed partisans in Tsalland but also the French colonial forces in Congo, winning on both fronts and getting way too confident in the lead up to the Great War. Then, in the Great War, the Byzantines in neighbouring Nilosahara try to hit back at the Celts by attacking the Geletian Congo, and the French easily secure a degree of Aventine support for anti-Geletian operations in the region.

The Geletian view of the Congolese would indeed be quite different to that of the Christian Europeans, by and large. I don't see there being the same kind of racism. It's more cultural chauvinism from the Celts. If you embrace Celtic culture, you may be accepted no matter what colour you are. If you don't, well, you've only got yourself to blame!

When losing their grip in Congo during the '40s, the Geletians may well have started preparing Congolese resistance movements, especially amongst the pro-Geletian tribes. "Here you go, have these weapons we commandeered from the defeated Western Roman Army. Let the Frogs have it!"
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Nova Gaul
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Founded: Nov 18, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Gaul » Thu May 16, 2013 11:35 pm

I agree totally BG, will be interesting to flesh out this history indeed.

Briefly, I started a factbook. However, I tried posting it on the offsite and lost all my aigus, graves, circumflexes, to say nothing of commas and apostrophes! It was in short a mess, and rather than prune things out, I just put the factbook for France on NS. Here...

Kingdom of France

And I also added it to my signature. A hunch tells me I needn't keep the AVW tag for a while. At any rate, I will get something up offsite soon, but the basic synopsis can be found there.

EDIT: Great point also on the maps BG, I concur with your borders and populations thereof. Thanks for your map-fu Chrin...I'd happily do mapping myself if I was not so absolutely dismal at it.
Last edited by Nova Gaul on Fri May 17, 2013 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Chrinthania
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Founded: Oct 05, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chrinthania » Fri May 17, 2013 3:04 pm

I'd like to make a minor edit to my application above. The map shows me that there's a weird little enclave made by the Eastern panhandle of West Virginia where it sits between Maryland and Virginia. I'd like to make it look a tad more natural by adding those three counties from West Virginia. The counties are Morgan, Berkeley, and Jefferson. Those three counties would add 179,073 to the population bringing it up to 22,840,736.

For map reference, these three counties are here, circled in red:

Image
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