A Modern World (AMW) Applications Center

[Chrinthanium]

Application For A Modern World

Nation: The Constitutional Monarchy Of Carabana

Brief History: Carabana was officially founded in the late 1880s, after a long war for independence from powerful nations who wished to colonize Carabana and take advantage of it's natural resources. Carabana's first monarch took charge and rapidly changed Carabana from a poor, isolated back-water nation into a major power in the region of southern Africa. When other nations began to industrialize, Carabana did too, but taking care to not harm it's environment in the process. Due to other monarch's attempts to ruin this and turn Carabana into a fully industrialized nation with no environmental beauty, the monarch was given no choice but to establish a council that would keep monarch's from abusing their power. The council was established as the Royal Council Of Carabana, and made sure that the people had their say in what happened to Carabana. Now entering the age of modern technology, Carabana has seamlessly combined the old with the new, and is a superpower on the rise.

Location On The Map: As mentioned in the history of Carabana, it is located in the south of Africa, approximately where the country Madagascar is located.

Economy: Carabana's economy consists of mostly the Private Industry, Government, and the State-Owned Industry not far behind. The average salary is 36,896 Carabanian Dollars per person, with the richest earning 53,777 Carabanian Dollars, and the poorest earning 24,046 Carabanian Dollars per year. Carabana's gross domestic product is worth 7.79 trillion Carabanian Dollars.

Society: Carabana's society is very peaceful and safe. Crime is virtually unknown due to our well-funded police force, and so far Carabana has not been involved in too many wars. Our society cares very much for the enviroment, with most people recycling and relying on eco-friendly sources of electricity. All of our citizens earn money to be able to make a living AND have many extra things, and our healthcare is free to our residents. Though some people in our country don't rely on the government for aid, and live isolated from society in small communities, in Carabana's islands in the ocean.

Language: Due to our colonial past, our four most spoken languages are Carabanian (Different Dialect Of Spanish), Spanish, British English, and Portuguese.

I hope you can accept this application for Carabana to be in this roleplay.

Well, where do I begin?

I am not one to issue a 'no' answer initially without giving the applicant sufficient chance to work on the application. In this case, my first response was indeed no. Quite simply put, the application tells me nothing about the culture, politics, and history of your nation. Furthermore, it tells precious little about the economy (apart from 'lots of resources that Europeans wanted' and being 'industrialized'). Certainly I am not against applications that aren't fully fleshed out, but the more specifics, the better the application (usually). Sometimes I am able to glean what kind of nation you're interested in playing with simple and vague applications. Sometimes I am not. This is one time I am not.

My suggestion would be to rethink your claim, give us a good idea of what kind of nation you wish to play in our RP group, and resubmit your application.

[The Amyclae]

To add to the recent influx of new members, and an old member, is another older member. Me! Yay.

I guess this is just a teaser/throwing an idea out there rather than an actual claim. I suppose I want to know whether this is an insane idea or not.

Yay. Okay, a bit of background first, a bit of context. Let us start with the early part of the Middle Ages (roughly 6th-11th centuries), the most dominant mode of religious expression (beyond simple lay piety) was Benedictine Monasticism as articulated by the Rule of St. Benedict. This ideal (the ideal) was for monks to be removed from the world, focused on their individual journey to God, in an environment of obedience. Now this was just an ideal, and was often contradicted in practice but it's the basic framework to which people aspire. Note well, Benedictine monasteries are extremely powerful: intellectually, spiritually and temporally. Some would become the nucleuses for the European university system, others would spit in the faces of Norsemen participating in a viking, and all are more or less incredibly very wealthy. Follow the holy books and you get priests and bishops. Follow swords and you get grunts and generals. Follow the money, however, and you get everyone. From this weath comes friction. From this friction, in the 12th and 13th centuries, there is a religious revival and call to reform that results in the creation of a number of new groups. Some of these groups, more or less explicitly, attempt to break the hegemony of the Benedictines. Many credit the Cistercians (who still follow the Rule of St. Benedict) and the Regular Canons (who are not monks, but follow the Rule of St. Augustine, which is less specific and much more flexible than the Benedictine rule) as being the 'most' influential. Yet for our purposes they are useful for only one observation. That is, these groups, especially the canons, but really the religious landscape in general, are characterized by an increasing concern with neighbors. The way this most often is expressed is by calls to educate those around you verbo et exemplo, by word and deed, by preaching and living a holy life. Similarly, canons are increasingly woven into the landscape of urban centers and the rising towns, instead of being separated from the world they are inextricably a part of it.

Against this background emerges St. Francis. He takes the 'word and deed' stuff yet rebrands the praxis with a reformists edge. He calls for a return to the Apostolic life in the imitation of Christ. Most importantly, this temporal and temporary life is one that should be in the world, preaching, and yet dedicated to poverty (because the Apostles owned nothing) and under the guidance of a monastic rule. And it is a hit, a big hit, once approved by the Pope (a near run thing, given the failure of other similar groups to gain traction with the ecclesiastical hierarchy). The Franciscans are hugely popular and rapidly grow beyond the ability of Francis to maintain control over day to day operations. Soon enough they reach the point where they start to experience things like "hey, I love you guys, here's 6000 pieces of gold and the deeds to all my land beyond the river. Pray for my soul so I'm not stuck in purgatory forever, huh?" Like many orders they do not have the ability to really utilize this property beyond the scope of the initial rule which mandated poverty. So this wealth becomes a temptation and Francis himself sees this in his last days and writes his famous testament that insists that the order remain in poverty. After Francis's death, this testament causes a lot of dissension. On one side is a group whose conception of the means for the salvation of souls included splendid churches and the persuasion of human learning and oratory, and perhaps a feeling of rivalry with the Dominicans. Another, men generally drawn more to the contemplative life, who wished to adhere as closely as possible to the strictness and simplicty of the orignal manner of life. Thus, we find two parties growing up among the Franciscans even during the Saint's lifetime that grow only farther apart after the Saint's death.

Meanwhile! The prophetic writings of Joachim of Fiore, a mystic who dies right before the Franciscans are formed, are incredibly popular. In them, Joachim posited 3 ages of history: the Age of the Father, i.e. Old Testament times; the Age of the Son, from Jesus to....right about now (now in the 13th century, not now today), and the Age of the Spirit, which was sort of a Christian utopia where everything would be led by the "Order of the Just" and all the ecclesiastic hierarchy would not be necessary anymore. Joachim of Fiore is even mentioned by some contemporary scholars, Terry Eagleton comes to mind, as a perfect example of how surprisingly Judeo-Christian the ideas of Marx are. But I digress. In the 13th Century everyone is sitting around and thinking 'hey, guess what super popular, very holy group emerged at just about the exact time predicted by Joachim?' So the Franciscans, or at least a good chunk of them, eat this stuff up, which, given the whole "ecclesiastical hierarchy passing away" thing, makes some people very anxious.

Anxious because, again, the Christian Church is at the time the only real political institution that exists. Church cannon is, generally, *the* law. It has transcontinental and intercontinental jurisdiction over three continents. Therefore to preach about a 'hierarchal passing away' is to preach about political states (well, state) passing away. A future without an ecclesiastical hierarchy is a stateless future. Nearly a communist future. So the rub was not so much with the Popes, who would invariably support one side or the other, but rather with the various 'secular' authorities. It is no surprise that the problem arises, more or less, exactly as these monastic facilities become intertwined with the temporal authorities that have grown up around them and that the greatest support for the more fun-loving interpretation of St. Fransci's will comes from the Franciscans who have the closest relations with these new population centers--while the more ascetic Fratecellis find their greatest support in the working class and artisans, especially in Florence.

After decades of controversy regarding poverty the argument flares up with a vengeance in the later part of the 13th century, and there is a final split between the more strict, more Joachimite, faction (the Spirituals) and the more moderate, more 'earthly,' institutional faction (the Convenentuals). By this time the issue is less of a religious one, if it ever was, as it is a political one. Keep in the back of your mind that the Pope is the first 'modern' ruler controlling the first 'modern' state. Since the Spirituals are very powerful and widespread and the Spirituals are going around pointing out how Christ owned nothing at all, "though man all these priests and bishops seem to own a lot of shit, huh?" the Pope and very powerful bishops (who are, often, the same person) repeatedly weigh in on this controversy, supporting one side or the other. The last gasp was a Bull in April of 1310 that essentially split the order in half. Unfortunately, even then, the controversy does not resolve itself, partially because the Spirituals do have powerful allies, including their share of Popes, and appeal to large segments of the population. Unfortunately they do not have quite enough allies and so their strength, somewhat tragically, only serves to fan the flames. In 1324 the Pope pronounces a bull that says that Christ definitely owned things. A seemingly small concession but in fact a large one--not only do moderate Franciscans get pissed, but refuse to acknowledge the bull and defy the Pope. Ruh-roh!

This defiant group of Franciscans, then, are named Fraticelli, or 'diminutive' brethren (e.g. Little Brethren, Minority Brethren, Small Brethren, ect).

And from this nexus springs my claim. Somewhat unfortunately, the Fraticelli would continue in Europe more or less into the 1400s but would not quite make it out to the 1500s, which is important because I want to get them out of Europe somehow. But that I leave up to future Max at some future time. I am sure with a few winks and nods we can imagine a Puritan-type situation where this long lost faction of Fraticelli are finally expelled and land, eventually, in my claim.

My claim: Sumatra and the Malay Peninsular.

Spain, or in our case, Chrinthanium, is already there. They are cruising through the straits of Malacca 'all' the time. So the history behind this is that Chrinthanium decides to encourage peaceful emigration (with maybe a few pointed sticks and a torch or two) along the coast of the Malay Peninsular and Sumatra. From there the Fraticelli do what they do, which is live in absolute poverty and send whatever funds they can to the Pope, while they live out a curious if pleasant existence along one of the world's premier nautical chokepoints. Eventually they assume independence, or perhaps fight for it, so that we end up with a quasi-theocracy; a group of members that recognize all the Popes up until ~1333 but none of them since. The head of state, then, is vacant and a council of church brothers rules a country that is ostensibly devout, multi-ethnic and probably not even all that Christian except for a precariously balanced political elite that bothers to rule a country they're not even sure they should be ruling.

If I crunched the numbers I think my claim would be of below average population, wealth and size--at least as I am eye-balling it right now. The only neighbors would be the infinitely larger Walmington Empire, the Indefatigable Glorious Home of the Continual Revolution Democratic Republic of Hotan, Japan (sort of) and a tiny bit of Valendia that seems to be Brunei (but I may be wrong). In short, all much larger, more armed and more populous. So in that sense, at least, I do not think this is changing too many of the rough calculus's performed by the region though it does, I hope, add a little more flavor to a bit of contested realty.

[Chrinthanium]

Seriously, that's a lot to read. I did see my name mentioned, so I should at least read it thoroughly.

EDIT: And I was right. That was a lot to read. A good build up to the genesis of your potential claim, Maximus. I'm not quite sure where I fit into it, though. Historically speaking, we didn't really venture out into the Pacific arena as far as claiming. We did a fair bit of exploring and named an ocean (Pacific Ocean, that is). But, we didn't really interfere with anything out there because, well, we're happy with what we have. We were too busy building Brasil. [samba]DANCE[/samba]. If you're simply looking to hitch a ride out that way, I'm cool with that.

Side note, apart from occupying the Iberian peninsula and speaking the language (and the oversexed nature of the claim), we bear very little other similarities with Spain. I'm doing my best to ensure I do not recreate Spain (or an Iberian Union). So, if it isn't Spanish/Portuguese history (for the most part), then, of course I'm in it to win it.

[The Amyclae]

I knew I went a little overboard, so I did try and wrap it up at the end. I think that earns me some points.

Yes, the idea is more of a hitching a ride out than Chrinthanium forcing themselves on anyone. Historically the Portuguese sort of fell into possession of the area with a rather humble effort, which was replicate by the Dutch. So I think it is a believable, and more than possible, that a quixotic effort to reclaim the straits from the vile Sultanate of Malacca happens but without extensive crown support.

[Beddgelert]

Max gets stoned after a theology class and moves his claim. Got it.

[The Amyclae]

Max gets stoned after a theology class and moves his claim. Got it.

Heeeeyy! It's so much more than you dirty Brit. But actually, that's a good summary.

[Chrinthanium]

Max gets stoned after a theology class and moves his claim. Got it.

Heeeeyy! It's so much more than you dirty Brit. But actually, that's a good summary.

So, you're a Chrinthani after all.

[The Crooked Beat]

Philosophy? Getting stoned? Count me in!

(cue laugh track)

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all night!

On a slightly more sincere note, the claim for sure has my approval! It possesses all the key Maximilian trademarks, from the depth of its historical genesis to the uniqueness of its creative character, and while I can't pretend to even begin to grasp the theology than underpins it, I don't think any of us would doubt for a moment that Max will turn it into an immensely interesting nation!

Not to mention, it's fantastic to see that one of our legacy AMWers hasn't disappeared after all! Excellent to have you back! Now, if we could just manage to track down J&H...

[The Amyclae]

The last I saw J&H he was brandishing a liter of off-brand vodka, empty of course. Or was that BG?

With three more or less yes's I will take it as a tentative indication that I will not be forced to play by myself in the sanbox of our forums. A more formal application will follow shortly.

[Chrinthanium]

The last I saw J&H he was brandishing a liter of off-brand vodka, empty of course. Or was that BG?

With three more or less yes's I will take it as a tentative indication that I will not be forced to play by myself in the sanbox of our forums. A more formal application will follow shortly.

I would agree with you. The last thing we want to see you do is play with yourself in the sandbox.

Furthermore, if you're applying with this claim, then it comes to mind to ask that, when you state "Sumatra" do you just mean the island itself, or the other islands associated with it? If so, you're in a great position if Japan and Walmington ever go to war. In fact, you'd be smack dab right in the middle of a hot spot, probably.

J&H CTE'd a few days ago and hasn't been heard from in a few months. Perhaps, now that he's graduated, who knows what he'll be doing. We'll have to see. Becauseh J&H has been around for a while, and because, historically-speaking, there's important history with J&H in AMW, I'm going to give it 30-45 days to see if he comes back before I start thinking of removing the ERE from the map. Though, his alternate claim in India is probably going to go shortly on account he's done nothing with it. Though, perhaps, this is better for the discussion thread and not the apps thread.

[Chemaki]

And from this nexus springs my claim. Somewhat unfortunately, the Fraticelli would continue in Europe more or less into the 1400s but would not quite make it out to the 1500s, which is important because I want to get them out of Europe somehow. But that I leave up to future Max at some future time. I am sure with a few winks and nods we can imagine a Puritan-type situation where this long lost faction of Fraticelli are finally expelled and land, eventually, in my claim.

Here's something new and rather exotic to ponder upon:

Whilst a rather rapid and tangental departure from real-life (and perhaps, by some measure, your intended AMW) Franciscan history, missions to the Middle East and the Ilkhanate of the late renaissance era (with its plethora of Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Nestorian Christians, Yazidis, Mandaeists, Manichaeists, and Animists of countless variety) would have been very lucrative for the Franciscans (and earlier Benedictine orders), not least because of its proximity to the Byzantine Empire, religious tolerance and stable diplomacy. Whilst I can't imagine anyone in their right mind suddenly wishing to depart their cushy lifestyle in Florence to move a thousand miles east to some Greek city under the control of a Turkic Khan, I can equally envisage the construction of Benedictine, Franciscan or other monesteries in Persia as a direct response to the growing foothold the Islamic faith had in the region. Whilst the Ilkhanate was tolerant of its Christian Greek and Persian minorities, the other small states which were held in its hegemony, many of them small Emirates or Caliphates dotting the Persian Gulf and prosletyzing or persecuting the 'heathens' (and often, depending on which sect of Islam the states adhered to, each other), were a cause for concern as during the 13th and 14th centuries a good quarter (around 8 million souls) of the Ilkhanate's population was, in fact, Christian, and the established monastic orders either fractured to the point of oblivion or were replaced by competing Islamic institutions, leaving an ecclesiarchical power gap.

Where there is a will, there is a way, and with a population the size of medieval Britain at stake, there likely would have been some effort on the Cistercians or Franciscans to establish monestaries in Persia, and over time yielded interesting examples. Whilst the Cistercians thrived in smaller Greek city-states along the coast, eventually creating their own dioceses, some by right their own theocratic city-states within the Ilkhanate hegemony. This power proved to be their undoing, however, as further Islamization of the Ilkhanate, as well as attempts by the Khans of the era to minimize the political and economic clout of religious institutions, led to widespread purges of the Cistercians, the last of their number fleeing back to their European brethren in the late 14th century. The Franciscans, with their distance from politics and vows of poverty, were warmly greeted, and although were not entirely unscathed during the purges, were of little concern to many of the local lords. In fact, many Franciscan churches were utilized as a means to generate renevue from the normally defiant Christian populace, with 'excess' cash from a monestary being extorted by local rulers in return for the monestary's continued protection.

With news of the Papal Bull finally spreading to the Ilkhanate, the reaction was even more extreme than that of the split in Italy. Whilst many of the Franciscan monks, being shoehorned into various administrative roles within the various autonomous Persian Christian communties, supported the Conventionalist movement in Italy, the Papal Bull still divided the Eastern Franciscans. Many of the larger Franciscan monestaries rivalled the earlier Benedictine dioceses, and presided over hundreds of thousands of Christians (Catholic, Nestorian, Orthodox and Aryan), many of whom lost their own churches and turned to the Franciscans for help. The Nestorian Patriarch of Persia, as well as the various leaders of small Military Orders around the Middle East, recognized the Franciscans' right to own property as a necessity to continue functioning as administrative head of Christendom in the Middle East; the current state of affairs was that the huge donations that the Franciscans did recieve were on the whole taken by local Islamic rulers, leading to the creation of some very rich city-states encompassing these monestaries. The Franciscan Abbots themselves were less thrilled, barely able to hold councils between all the monestaries, let alone create a central administration for the various Christian denominations that they served.

The Monks' War, as it was called, revolved around a conspiracy by a small group of clergymen, namely Abbot Dorian of Lemin (Bandar Abbas), de facto leader of the 600,000 Christians living around the Straight of Hormuz, and Lawrent Asker, a Byzantine Knight and Commander of a garrison on Qeshm Island. Dorian cited the Papal Bull as a legitimate reason to stop paying the Shah of Hormuz and instead asserting control over his monestary's funds, hoping to set up an impartial administration to goven the Christian population and act as a new Persian Catholic Church. The Shah of Hormuz, a subject of the Emir of Oman, repeatedly threatened the Abbot with closure of the monestary, and the Emir himself intervened in 1327 by laying siege and attempting to starve the monks into submission. This prompted a huge retaliation on behalf of Lawrent Asker, who mobilized a Catholic rebellion to break the siege and defend the monestary, with hopes of ultimately founding a million-strong Crusader State in the strategically advantageous location of Hormuz. Supplied with arms and ships by the Byzantines, Asker quickly conquered a series of islands in the Persian Gulf, fortifying them and using them as basis to conduct various privateering missions. Rebellion on the mainland was less successful, and the peasant's revolt, without Asker's leadership, was massacred by the Emir's forces, and the Abbey of Lemin razed to the ground. The few Christians that were left fled to the islands to form a short-lived 'Crusader State', the Principality of Lemin, or north to the Ilkhanate.

This war, and the purge that followed, terrified the other Dominican orders into submission to their local lords, and although they never called themselves Fraticellis as such, they held no property rights of their own and removed themselves entirely from local politics. For the next few decades the Christian population, cowed and leaderless, would shrink from 8 million to a few hundred thousand, eventually growing again under the guise of the Ilkhanate-sanctioned Romanian Catholic Church, an organization set up by various Byzantine and Romanian expatriots in an attempt to organize and manage Persian Christians, but in reality expected to pay heavy taxes to the Khan and had little outside support.

Now for the important part; despite the occasional rebellions and pogroms in the southern Emirates, the Ilkhanate itself was famous for its religious tolerance, and many monks from all faiths and orders were encouraged to take residence in the nation, owing to the Persian ideal that the views and religious doctrine of heretics was core to the creation of a worldwide Islamic faith. It's not entirely implausible that the Fratecelli Order, shunned in Europe, would have come over to Persia to reunite with their old Eastern brethren, and realizing the abysmal state and decline of Christendom in the region, declared it a lost cause, and after being paid to close the Persian monestaries (which, with a much smaller proportion of Christians to prise money from, were now more trouble than they were worth) and piss off for good, they hopped onto a trade fleet navigating the Indian Ocean, eventually ending up in Indonesia. Didn't want to expand a whole lot on this part since this is now your history, Max, not mine (though unless you have a MAJOR objection to it, I'd love to keep the first four paragraphs of this post as the history of a divergent Fraticelli order in the Middle East), and also my inspiration for ecclesiastical/theological ramblings has just worn off.

[Great Italy]

This defiant group of Franciscans, then, are named Fraticelli, or 'diminutive' brethren (e.g. Little Brethren, Minority Brethren, Small Brethren, ect).

And from this nexus springs my claim. Somewhat unfortunately, the Fraticelli would continue in Europe more or less into the 1400s but would not quite make it out to the 1500s, which is important because I want to get them out of Europe somehow. But that I leave up to future Max at some future time. I am sure with a few winks and nods we can imagine a Puritan-type situation where this long lost faction of Fraticelli are finally expelled and land, eventually, in my claim.

If you need anything from Italy, my history is still wide open. The Confederation had gone through several internal conflicts (civil wars) during its history, and it might have involved religion too. [Fun trivia: IRL the War of the Eight Saints (1375-1378), pitting Florence vs. the Papal States, resulted in the re-emergence of the Fraticelli in Florence.] That civil war could've expelled them from the Italian Peninsula to relocate somewhere, utilizing several of the Italian states' seafaring traditions to flee and settle somewhere. Though the AMW Italians never did really colonize anything else useful but north Africa.

[The Amyclae]

Responses! Yay.

Now for the important part; despite the occasional rebellions and pogroms in the southern Emirates, the Ilkhanate itself was famous for its religious tolerance, and many monks from all faiths and orders were encouraged to take residence in the nation, owing to the Persian ideal that the views and religious doctrine of heretics was core to the creation of a worldwide Islamic faith. It's not entirely implausible that the Fratecelli Order, shunned in Europe, would have come over to Persia to reunite with their old Eastern brethren, and realizing the abysmal state and decline of Christendom in the region, declared it a lost cause, and after being paid to close the Persian monestaries (which, with a much smaller proportion of Christians to prise money from, were now more trouble than they were worth) and piss off for good, they hopped onto a trade fleet navigating the Indian Ocean, eventually ending up in Indonesia.

I am all on board for this idea Chemaki. You thought this out and like the best fabrications it has a good deal of truth. I am more than happy to have sprinkles of monastic piety throughout the region, historically at least.

If you need anything from Italy, my history is still wide open. The Confederation had gone through several internal conflicts (civil wars) during its history, and it might have involved religion too. [Fun trivia: IRL the War of the Eight Saints (1375-1378), pitting Florence vs. the Papal States, resulted in the re-emergence of the Fraticelli in Florence.] That civil war could've expelled them from the Italian Peninsula to relocate somewhere, utilizing several of the Italian states' seafaring traditions to flee and settle somewhere. Though the AMW Italians never did really colonize anything else useful but north Africa.

Chrin was skeptical of the usual Portuguese-Spanish colonial history being readopted, so if it is all right with you I would rather reimagine my claim's history as an Italian possession. I am a little vague on the details right now because I am terribly hungover, but soon we'll hash it out. Do you know about the IRC?

[Chrinthanium]

Responses! Yay.

Now for the important part; despite the occasional rebellions and pogroms in the southern Emirates, the Ilkhanate itself was famous for its religious tolerance, and many monks from all faiths and orders were encouraged to take residence in the nation, owing to the Persian ideal that the views and religious doctrine of heretics was core to the creation of a worldwide Islamic faith. It's not entirely implausible that the Fratecelli Order, shunned in Europe, would have come over to Persia to reunite with their old Eastern brethren, and realizing the abysmal state and decline of Christendom in the region, declared it a lost cause, and after being paid to close the Persian monestaries (which, with a much smaller proportion of Christians to prise money from, were now more trouble than they were worth) and piss off for good, they hopped onto a trade fleet navigating the Indian Ocean, eventually ending up in Indonesia.

I am all on board for this idea Chemaki. You thought this out and like the best fabrications it has a good deal of truth. I am more than happy to have sprinkles of monastic piety throughout the region, historically at least.

If you need anything from Italy, my history is still wide open. The Confederation had gone through several internal conflicts (civil wars) during its history, and it might have involved religion too. [Fun trivia: IRL the War of the Eight Saints (1375-1378), pitting Florence vs. the Papal States, resulted in the re-emergence of the Fraticelli in Florence.] That civil war could've expelled them from the Italian Peninsula to relocate somewhere, utilizing several of the Italian states' seafaring traditions to flee and settle somewhere. Though the AMW Italians never did really colonize anything else useful but north Africa.

Chrin was skeptical of the usual Portuguese-Spanish colonial history being readopted, so if it is all right with you I would rather reimagine my claim's history as an Italian possession. I am a little vague on the details right now because I am terribly hungover, but soon we'll hash it out. Do you know about the IRC?

More along the lines of I didn't want to get roped into having to be Spain.

[Nova Gaul]

Looks awesome Max! Look forward to RPing with your new state in days to come, hooray for getting Asia more populated!

Will be posting more again soon - promise.

[Great Italy]

Chrin was skeptical of the usual Portuguese-Spanish colonial history being readopted, so if it is all right with you I would rather reimagine my claim's history as an Italian possession. I am a little vague on the details right now because I am terribly hungover, but soon we'll hash it out. Do you know about the IRC?

What is IRC?

I'm generally freer on weekends, and seeing that you're 16 hours behind me (if you didn't move to another time zone during the past few years), prolly the best time to meet on IRC is friday night to you and late saturday morning to me. Or early saturday morning to you and late saturday evening to me. Or something like that. perhaps we can arrange something

[The Amyclae]

Fun fact about my life, I am in Atlanta these days. I have given up my Southern California roots. I always wanted to visit a foreign nation without having to learn a new language, so I decided on the South. So I think that changes things up a bit, but not too terribly much. I think the time difference is about three hours so that all sounds good. I'll make sure to be on this weekend.

[Arumdaum]

I've been interested for a while in the prospect of RPing a united Korea, in particular one that hasn't been devastated by colonialism and civil war; something like a Joseon that adapted and evolved to modern times. I was thinking of a successful Gapsin Coup, but I'm entirely sure whether that's what i really want.

Korea is a constitutional monarchy with the king at its head; Neo-Confucianism remains the dominant basic belief system on the peninsula, although the nation has also been influenced by foreign ideas. The King possesses no real powers, and rules for the most part as a mere figurehead.

The yangban, Korea's traditional semi-hereditary scholar gentry nobility (noble status was historically acquired by passing civil service exams, and then retained until three generations of your family failed to produce a passing candidate), was abolished due to progressive legislation, but their retention of wealth and power have nonetheless meant that Korea still maintains an unofficial aristocracy. Korea's upper house in its bicameral legislature is composed entirely of professionals who are appointed by the monarch upon recommendation by the Prime Minister for life terms. The fact that the upper house is unelected remains controversial in Korea, and there have been calls to abolish the upper house entirely.

Suffrage, born out of an evolution of the Confucian examination system, would be granted to those who passed an exam made specifically for the acquisition of voting rights. Progressive legislation has resulted in all high school seniors being mandated to take the test at the end of the school year, although the exam, which tests their knowledge on basic law and their rights as citizens, remains difficult enough for over an eighth of those who take it to fail. The number of those eligible to vote has been gradually rising, however. The tests may further be retaken during certain times during the year, and one may attend specialized private academies (referred to as vote hagwons, or tugwon for short, an abbreviation of tupyo, meaning vote, and hagwon, which refers to private academies), which some high school students also do before taking the test.

Competition is fierce in Korea when it comes to education - the vast majority of students either attend private academies following immediately after public school hours end or hire private tutors to enhance their chances at entering a top university. The relative lack of social interaction and intense competition among students results in a high suicide rate among secondary school students. The difficulty of entering top Korean universities also means that many decide to study overseas at high-ranking foreign universities, which some perceive as easier to get into, especially for students from wealthier families.

The necessity and heavy presence of private academies and tutors in Korean education have wrought heavy criticism from many, the main complaint being that those with better access to wealth have better access to an education, and that such a system reinforces the unofficial yangban class while keeping the poor poor, out of line not only with progressive thought but also meritocratic Confucian ideals. Nonetheless, previous attempts to ban private academies and tutors have tended to be a massive failure, and the amount of regulation they face generally tends to change depending on who is in power.

Obtaining employment is also difficult for many Koreans due to the generally over-educated workforce; structural unemployment and skills mismatch in Korea tends to be extraordinarily high. This has resulted in many Koreans finding jobs overseas, where employment tends to be easier to find and pay often higher.

People in Korea tend to be concerned with the fact that Korea tends to spend a massive amount on education but sees little return on those investments; spending less on education by a family would however mean a more difficult time entering the job market, a harder time finding a spouse, and social discrimination due to appearing less intelligent or less educated.

Korea is a modern capitalist nation specializing in the IT industry, electronics, shipbuilding, automobile production, and entertainment. The more populated south serves as the nation's breadbasket, although the country's shift from an agricultural economy to an industrial and then post-industrial economy has meant that Korea now imports much of its food. Unlike its Japanese neighbor, Korea is not deprived of mineral wealth, with rich reserves located in the northern part of the peninsula.

Korea's economy is dominated by large conglomerations known as chaebol; while it is prestigious to work for them, they are also a symbol of elitism, decadence, and corruption. Business leaders and politicians often have ties to each other, to the distress of those who lean toward the left. While wealth disparity is increasing, it is not to the extent of some other developed countries.

Korea's lack of energy sources such as oil have meant dependence upon oil from foreign nations, but have also served as an incentive to invest in renewable and nuclear energy.

Most religious Koreans adhere to Muism, the traditional form of shamanism present on the peninsula that evolved into a state religion following the example of Japan's creation of State Shinto. Buddhism is tolerated to a greater degree than religions such as Christianity, and many Koreans have adopted some Buddhist customs, despite the religion having been suppressed until the late-19th century. Most Koreans do not adhere to any religion, however.

Korean is the official language of the country and the most widely spoken in the largely ethnically homogeneous nation. However, students generally begin learning a second language in third grade, and a third language once they enter ninth grade. This does not necessarily mean that all are fluent in the languages they study; this is especially true for those studying languages radically different from Korean.

Relatively tough immigration laws make it somewhat difficult to become a citizen, although there a very limited jus soli is present. The tight job market has also acted as a disincentive for relaxing immigration policies to accept a high number of highly educated immigrants, whereas fear of higher crime among immigrants and the general feeling that only "Koreans" belong in Korea have meant that lesser educated immigrants are undesired. Dual citizenship laws are rather lax in order to encourage ethnic Koreans living overseas to "return" to Korea, in part to address the looming issue of population decline. Korean ethnic identity tends to be tied with race, resulting in some social discrimination against those who cannot pass as Korean, or for those who can be mistaken as those of another race.

The climate and terrain correspond with the actual land claims, of course. For those who don't know what the climate's like, it's basically the Midwest, except with more rain during the summer. Winters are cold and dry, although they are long enough for Seoul to still have on average 28 days of snow, spread out from late October to March, occasionally April. Summers are hot and humid, while spring and fall are pleasant but short (I heard the weather's been changing a lot in Korea IRL, in that fall and spring have gotten shorter, and there's less snow. I just know that when I lived there, it snowed from November to March). Mountains cover over 70% of Korea, meaning a general lack of arable land.

I'm interested as to how Korea would view Japan in the modern day; Japan was historically viewed as a nation of war-loving, uncivilized barbarians to the east (although more civilized than those who weren't acquainted with Confucian civilization at all). While I feel like there may have been tensions in the past, being a chinilpa makes me want to revise history in order to create friendlier relations between Korea and Japan.

The size of Korea's military and investment into its military will depend upon Korea's interactions with the rest of the world but also relations with other countries in the greater region. I've yet to be accepted or plan things out with anyone, so I'm not really developing this part yet.

I'm also interested in how any China we'll get is going to affect the RP... it's going to be difficult to be Korea without there being China.

I'd like to claim Korea at the very least; I'm not entirely sure whether adding parts of Manchuria would be appropriate. I looked over parts of the General Discussion thread and saw that Nova Gaul was nice enough to keep Korea outside of Japan's possessions (an issue which tends to be sensitive for many Koreans). Adding them would mainly be nice in that I wouldn't be less of a shrimp when it comes to area (from 220 sq km and slightly smaller than Great Britain to 1.007 mil sq km w/ Dongbei and roughly the size of Egypt), although added bonuses would include more than doubling my population (76 mil to 186 mil w/ Dongbei), adding to my mineral reserves, greatly increasing my industrial capacity, and causing me to be less dependent on oil... I wouldn't mind being granted only Jilin and Liaoning, though (553k sq km and 147 mil people, or slightly larger than Yemen with around the population of modern Russia). While I'd like to see another strong Asian power that can stand up for itself in AMW, the idea of new people being overly powerful has bothered me in the past when I ran an RP region, and I'm sure there will be similar feelings here. There's also the fact that NG has expressed interest in having previously colonized Manchuria.

I'm also interested in the prospect of Korea having been a historical colonial power, or being a current colonial power. Korea itself will never have been colonized. "Asia for the Asians" sounds attractive and I'm interested in incorporating it into being a part of Korean politics, but this could be downplayed depending on relations with other non-Asian colonial powers and relations with neighbors such as Japan.

If allowed colonies, then I would refrain from colonizing parts of China in the hopes of having a China player around eventually, and Vietnam with those same hopes, those being the other two countries inside of the Confucian orbit apart from Japan and Korea. I know that AMW goes by Alternate History, but I'll still be dreaming... ;__; On the other hand, I wouldn't mind colonizing or having had colonized the Philippines.

Of course, I'm perfectly fine with being denied colonies and Manchuria, or having to reapply for them later after staying with the region for a while. I'm also more interested in keeping Korea developed than having a large country.

Actually, I would like to claim the Pacific Northwest, Idaho, Wyoming, and Alaska. Overall, it would add just over 15 milion (15,010,697 from Wikipedia) to Korea's population of just over 76 million, pushing my population up to around 91 million. It gives me more reason to be involved in the Great War and would help me to flesh out my relations with the other nations there.

[The Crooked Beat]

While the necessary incompleteness of any prospective Korea's local environment of course raises some awkward historical questions, that doesn't need to be any reason for why not to go forward with what could definitely amount to an interesting new nation! A Korea would help immensely to color-in some of the blank spaces in that part of the world, and might add a generous dose of spice to regional international politics, considering Japan's decidedly forward new policies.

At the same time, the concept of a Korea driven as more or less in real life by export-oriented manufacturing and high-tech may perhaps not be perfectly easy to reconcile with AMW's more fragmented global economy, where it often seems that free trade is the exception rather than the rule, but it all depends on what everyone else thinks, ultimately.

As usual, should have more to say, but feeling lazy.

[Arumdaum]

While the necessary incompleteness of any prospective Korea's local environment of course raises some awkward historical questions, that doesn't need to be any reason for why not to go forward with what could definitely amount to an interesting new nation! A Korea would help immensely to color-in some of the blank spaces in that part of the world, and might add a generous dose of spice to regional international politics, considering Japan's decidedly forward new policies.

At the same time, the concept of a Korea driven as more or less in real life by export-oriented manufacturing and high-tech may perhaps not be perfectly easy to reconcile with AMW's more fragmented global economy, where it often seems that free trade is the exception rather than the rule, but it all depends on what everyone else thinks, ultimately.

As usual, should have more to say, but feeling lazy.

Is this an approval?

[Amerique]

A Confucian meritocratic constitutional monarchy Korea has my support and I look forward to the possibility of dealing with Joseon Korea as an economic and diplomatic partner historically, the former via the trading colony in Hawai'i and the protectorate in Pin'det. While the American Republic is interested in exporting republicanism to the world, it certainly is friendly or allies with sufficiently democratic constitutional monarchies such as Chrinthania and Walmington. If Korea has some historical animosity with Japan, America and Korea could operate very closely as there was a bit of a standoff or cold war planned between me and Japan.

As far as including parts of Manchuria, I don't have any objections to that as part of the claim. I am wondering, though, that with all our larger nations now or recent expansions in population, what our maximum or "benchmark" for total GDP is from which to determine GDP per capita. Obviously it used to be that Nibelunc's GDP was the limit but with Chrinthania, Walmington, myself, Valendia, etc. Being the size that they are now, I wonder what our new "acceptable" GDP range should be to not be too overpowered.

[Arumdaum]

A Confucian meritocratic constitutional monarchy Korea has my support and I look forward to the possibility of dealing with Joseon Korea as an economic and diplomatic partner historically, the former via the trading colony in Hawai'i and the protectorate in Pin'det. While the American Republic is interested in exporting republicanism to the world, it certainly is friendly or allies with sufficiently democratic constitutional monarchies such as Chrinthania and Walmington. If Korea has some historical animosity with Japan, America and Korea could operate very closely as there was a bit of a standoff or cold war planned between me and Japan.

As far as including parts of Manchuria, I don't have any objections to that as part of the claim. I am wondering, though, that with all our larger nations now or recent expansions in population, what our maximum or "benchmark" for total GDP is from which to determine GDP per capita. Obviously it used to be that Nibelunc's GDP was the limit but with Chrinthania, Walmington, myself, Valendia, etc. Being the size that they are now, I wonder what our new "acceptable" GDP range should be to not be too overpowered.

Awesome! I haven't talked things out with Jean yet, but I'm sure we would be able to work historical relations out if I'm accepted. Korea as of now should be pretty democratic, although the current increasingly controversial way to obtain suffrage remains difficult for many people.

Based on some discussion I did on IRC, I think I'd be perfectly fine without parts of Manchuria. I was hoping, however, that instead I could have colonies in Alaska and the land remaining in the United States (PNW + MT + WY). I feel like having the parts of Manchuria would balloon my population a bit too much.

Would that be alright? I was hoping that we could have previously cooperated (say, maybe 19th-century-ish) on wars against Walmington, and perhaps have had our own historical tensions.

Either way, got a minor factbook up; nothing is finalized, of course...

[Amerique]

Korean Cascadia is fine by me. I suppose Joseon could have modernized before the RL timeline (perhaps with American help) and perhaps colonization begun with a Korean Zheng He?

[The Crooked Beat]

Yeah, absolutely, a very interesting inversion of the RL colonial narrative! No reason, I suppose, why a more-together Korea couldn't have pulled a Japan, and expanded to impose its authority beyond its immediate neighborhood, particularly with Amerique itself lacking a Pacific coastline and California presumably having felt a certain hostility, at that point in time, to colonial ventures of all stripes.

Except, of course, Japan, but that's an entirely separate kettle of fish! Maybe the battle of Tsushima Strait could have pitted newly-modernized Korean and Japanese fleets against one another in an industrial-age recreation of turtle ships vs. samurais? Getting probably too far ahead of myself, as usual.

[Arumdaum]

Great! I was hoping to have colonization begin early enough to consolidate claims there and have an overwhelmingly Asian majority population, but late enough to justify the small population density. Of course, I could also justify the small population density by saying that relative peace and stability at home discouraged people from leaving everything they knew for an entirely new continent.

I think beginning industrialization in the late-19th century like Japan would be a bit too late; Japan ended up being deprived of colonies outside of the region, and only acquired various Pacific island chains due to its victories against the Germans in WWI. I'm assuming the Americas would have been fully colonized by then.

Considering that East Asia was really mainly more behind in weaponry than anything else (there were literally only two wars between China/Korea/Japan/Vietnam from 1429 - 1893 [not counting pirates or raids by nomads], so not much incentive to develop military technology), I think that early contact with perhaps European colonies could have given us access to more advanced weaponry, which we could then have reverse engineered and produced on our own (like the Chinese did in the early 1500s after capturing Portuguese cannons in battle).

Of course, that also depends on whether East Asia would also have remained as peaceful as it was IRL during this time period; if Japan still ends up having the largest firearm industry in the world in the late-16th early-17th centuries, I think wars and contact with Japan would have spurred both of us to develop more advanced weaponry.

I think that would make it easier for us to survive in North America and begin settling Alaska and the Pacific Northwest beginning from the late mid-late 1600s or early 1700s. If Walmington allows it, I was hoping to have colonized British Columbia as well, and then maybe have been pushed back following say, the development of the Maxim gun or something.

Depending upon European contacts with East Asia and when non-Native Americans enter the Americas, Korea might actually already have knowledge of the Americas by the time it colonizes the area, if it's anything like RL.

I totally wouldn't mind having a historical rivalry with Japan! It seems interesting; we could have battled it out over influence in the general region, such as over Taiwan or something.

Hopefully me having an empire doesn't cause everyone to see me as a yellow peril.