AMW Big Discussion Thread

[Cassanos]

I'm all for the Papal RP, but maybe we should find another way of splitting votes than just number of countries. Maybe one cardinal for 10, 20 or 25 million catholics in each country, but at least one and at most 3 or 5? If there is a cardinal for every 20 million catholics, with at least one for each participant, the UK gets one vote (some 6 million catholics), maybe an extra one for Ireland, Germany would have one vote for some 20-25 million catholics, Cassanos (some 36 million) one or, if we round up, two, Rome (assuming that EVERY Roman citizen, including Greek, is a catholic) 5 (9 if we don't have a top value).
This would better reflect the real conditions, in my view, since the Free West is rather secular, Britain is mostly anglican, Germany half catholic/half protestant and so on.

[Spyr]

That would probably work well... though I'd be hesitant to impose a cap. States like New Spain or (I think) Rome, who encourage and enforce Catholicism, ought have far more influence than more secular states.
Better to stop their dominance by assuming that the Church requires a two-thirds majority for papal election, forcing the larger powers to seek compromise with cardinals from more moderate states... after all, if a Roman Pope condemns the government of Britain, the British arent too worried as the Church isnt a political force there. If a Roman Pope condemns the government of New Spain, however, that will lead to major political consequences. The Catholic states may thus be willing to compromise, as its better to have 'their' man on the Papal throne, even if he's a moderate, than to lose control of such a major influence on their domestic political situation.

And if no one can't agree... well, that's why they lock the bastards up and ration their food until they make up their minds, isnt it?

[Nova Gaul]

Thinking about this I agree with Spyr—you made keen points, especially about relations between Catholic states. Let me say at the beginning this will be totally unlike the real Papal succession process, but then this is AMW, and we needs our election to work on our terms.

It would be most rational to simply distribute Cardinals for X number of Catholics for each country. 1 per 10 million seems to work in my opinion, although I am totally open to other suggestions (1 per 20, 30, or 5 million or 1 million for that matter) and am only vaguely outlining an idea. A 2/3 majority vote seems to work too; I suppose the only other practical vote would be a simple majority. 2/3 seems best though.

We really need to hear from Rome before moving on—and I figured out (duh, of course) that Kiev is an Orthodox state. Which could make for some fun Papal RP itself.

But I think this could be awesome guys, especially as we are sort of really voting on this, and the outcome can be made suspenseful! Spyr, by the way, would you mind being the moderator/Papal Secretary for this RP? It won’t involve too much other than the grand vote and such, and I think you are unbiased and fair (religiously so to speak).

So, who is in then?

[Spyr]

Would be glad to help by playing the Papal secretary role, certainly... Spyr itself hardly has any Catholics, and those are from the Yashimese Church and thus not in communion with Rome, so we definitely wont be casting votes.

[Dra-pol]

Sounds quite interesting, though I won't be taking part since being a Catholic in the CPRD is probably about as wise as being a Nazi in Cassanos in late 1945.

Quite off-topic, but... modern history of military aviation and international relations...

Heh, all right, I'll be more specific. BG and I have been trying to figure out which aircraft the People's Republic of Geletia may have supplied to Dra-pol (and/or Spyr) between 20th May 1982 and 15th February 1989, and which the rather different Democratic Republic of Beddgelert may have delivered since then, and to come up with suggestions for what the Unified People's Army Air Force and Ch'ŏllima Airways may have substituted before and since the infusion of modified Russian stuff in the '80s.

It has been noted that the upheavals have wrought havoc on Spyr's factbook (which, by the way, is rather nice, as I note after having spent the last three hours looking at it) and the continuity of aircraft contained within, but where we left it I was planning to lift the Type C59 Hisei, Type F60 Gufu, something derivded partly from Type F38 Dongvar, Type C69 Yunkong, and Type C62 Maeyukong from Spyr, and the rest -Shinden offshoots aside- from Geletia/Beddgelert.

But we've come up a bit short on helicopters. IAG-316 and 330 would have become available to Dra-pol, but relatively recently, and would be important in the fleet. Replacing my old swarms of Mi-2 and Mi-4 and giving Dra-pol a helicopter before mid-'82 -at the earliest- requires another source. We need Cold War era utility transport helicopters.

Also, a bomber to replace would-be Il-28s. The Geletians could have supplied Tu-16s, but only starting after '82, and I just don't see us bothering with significant numbers of such large aircraft given our strategic situation. So we're at the stage of wondering whether, in perhaps the '50s or '60s, Britain or France may have supplied Canberra or Vautour aircraft or plans to Dra-pol or perhaps more likely to Spyr as a weapon against the Yashiman Empire that Britain had beaten but not destroyed in WWII, and what Gurg, Vec, and indeed Spyr think on that matter.

It may seem unimportant to some, but the UPAAF is supposed still to have over a hundred first-generation jet engine light bombers in its arsenal. Are they Vautours? Spyran-built Canberra-knock-offs? Would the Type C59 mean that Sithin never really cared about such machines? I was planning to have Dra-pol receive C59s only some time after the Il-28-equivalent, and assuming that it would be perhaps more expensive and complicated to maintain and operate, hence the continued use of the Il-28-equivalent.

...so my revised factbook is nearing readiness, yeah =)

[Spyr]

Ah, my factbook... at this point its rather full of holes, a bit like walking through an elephant graveyard of bones and carcasses. I've been meaning to loot the ivory, perhaps move things bit by bit to a factbook 2.0 which would be free of the rather confusing blend of updated material beside long-abandoned detritus. A daunting and depressing task, but now we've at least established a bit of stability in the form of Yashima, so it can be done without worrying about yet another carpet being pulled out from under the whole affair. My tailbone will be glad for an end to the bruising, let me tell you.

Dra-pol would certainly have access to the mentioned Spyran aircraft, and Spyr would seem the most likely route for them to receive an Il-28-esque bomber aircraft as well. When working out Spyr's aircraft, I skipped over the subject of tactical bomber jets as it was one more thing on an already-too-long list of things to sort through, but it seems likely we'd have need for one in the early cold-war years. The C59 itself, while a tactical bomber of sorts, was built for nuclear payloads, and its use carrying conventional munitions was only established after design and deployment. There is a gap there, and something needs to fill it. The Canberra does seem the best candidate.

One can imagine the Continuation War (Drapoel War/Korean War/Yashimese Colonial Police Action/whatever you'd like to call the Drapoel-Yashimese conflict in '50-53) starting with a clash of essentially WWII propeller-driven aircraft, quickly sliding in Yashimese favour as they deploy late-war jet designs such as the Shinden. Suffering under Yashimese air superiority, Spyr turns to the wider world to beg assistance. The British have good reason to help: the Cold War is in full swing, and they just fought a war with Yashima barely 5 years previously. A revitalized Imperial Yashimese Navy, fed once more by Asian colonies, would be a frightening prospect for a power that needed to both maintain dominance of the seas and sufficient force to resist a Kieven advance in Europe. Keeping Spyr and Dra-pol alive in East Asia maintains a thorn in the side of both Yashima and Kiev, and would give a chance to test out new technologies in battle without having to trigger yet another world war.
In that context, perhaps the British supplied the Spyrans with jet aircraft... EE Canberras and F86 Sabres (err... without a USA-stand-in this probably requires Britain to have developed the Sabre themselves, doesn't it? That may be a problem...). Perhaps the British train Spyran pilots, perhaps RAF pilots fly the things directly using little Lyongese phrase cards. Perhaps they hand over aircraft plans to Spyran factories, or perhaps we do some reverse-engineering to figure the things out and jump-start our own entry into the jet age. Such would mean odd things like 'Sabre Alley' on the Yalu, but that's half the fun. Likely the Yashimese then either turn to the Kievens and are given MiG-15s to establish a stalemate of sorts, or perhaps they're cold-shouldered and forced to develop something akin to the Fuji T-1 on their own.
British technology in Spyran hands might be a continuing early Cold War trend... perhaps in the case of the AIM-9 Sidewinder (also Brit developed in absence of the USA?), where Spyr could fill the role of the ROC and fire the things at Kieven or Yashimese MiG-17s in a border skirmish, both proving the technology and providing the Kievens with an unexploded missile from which they could develop the K-13/AA-2.

Spyr would also be well-positioned to supply Cold War helicopters to the Drapoel... we had them. Only, I dont know where we got them, what they were called, or how capable they were. I'd better start working on that.

[Beth Gellert]

Are there strong reasons for you wanting to stick with Sabres, Sidewinders, and so on?

Britain could have supplied late-mark Meteors, which would have been equal or superior to Yashiman machines like Shinden-Kai, Kikka, and Karyu, only to be surprised by MiG-15 if Kyiv supplies them. Though less advanced over all, the British machine had some superior performance capabilities against the Sabre, in terms of acceleration and such, and they did manage a few MiG-15 kills IRL.

Similarly the de Havilland Vampire would have been available, and at a stretch perhaps the Venom could have arrived in '52 or '53 if Britain really wanted to try it out perhaps to aid in development of the Sea Vixen.

If that was all they got, the Spyrans would be at a disadvantage against Kyiv, but maybe Kyiv didn't help Yashima out with aircraft, perhaps having conflicting ambitions in the region or even realising that it may provoke Britain to continue delivering newer designs, which would soon be along. And Spyr and Dra-pol would still be able to match Yashiman aircraft, at least.

The Lightning's along by 1959, and the Gnat, which though infinitely less impressive than the Lightning was designed to be built by limited and newly-founded aerospace industries, and the Indians called their Gnat's 'Sabre Slayers' for their successes against Pakistani F86s.

Granted, there'd be no Sabre Alley, but then again Yashiman jets suddenly coming up against F8 Meteors -which could make 585mph, I think- and Vampires might have been in for a similar surprise after fighting old piston engine fighters until then.

Missile wise, Firestreak and later Red Top would conceivably do. I mean, they're less sophisticated than Sidewinder, but Britain used them for years IRL, and if Spyr recieved some and actually had some significant combat experience with them, perhaps in border skirmishes with Kyiv and/or Yashima, or Dra-pol's later wars, local industry might have developed something from them.

[Tiurabo]

Okay, bit of a problem here. Despite the fact that I've been using the forums for a year or so, I'm still a total noob when it comes to actual national roleplay, especially starting my own. I'm a good RPer, but I do well with characters, not nations. It's bad enough with regular NS, but with AMW I think it's going to be a bit more difficult.

So, after disclaiming my own noober, I'd like to ask the good people of AMW to give hints, suggestions, or at least point out threads that will help me out with this. I feel like it's kind of a noobish move to ask for help like that, but I figure that if I'm not getting it by now I probably should.

Help or don't, thanks for letting me play anyway.

[Somewhereistonia]

Apologies for my lack of activity right now, university is starting up again and I appear to be either out drinking, at uni, or sleeping. I should have plenty of time on Thursday to reply to that train crashing in India if I don't get the chance to reply before then.

[Spyr]

Tiurabo: Just think of it like a character RP, where you've got several million characters ^_^.

More seriously, roleplaying a nation blends individual characters (leaders, people of influence within the state, etc) with 'national' considerations. The economy, for example... what does the state produce? What does it require? Where it requires things it does not produce, it needs to seek out trade relations with those who can supply its needs, and where it produces surplus goods (or goods of high universal value, such as fossil fuels) it will seek external markets for those goods. The nature of the economy (state-controlled, free market, etc) will dictate how overall production is determined and how trade is conducted (barter deals between governments, private sales for maximum profit, etc). Or the political system... how are leaders selected, what are the ideologies behind the various political movements, how do governments maintain popular support? A representative democracy is much more vulnerable to popular discontent than a religious dictatorship, but the latter needs to worry about keeping its religious support base happy just as much as the democratic government needs to worry about a happy electorate. Or the military... what equipment does it use, where is it deployed, for what type of war has it been trained?
With such questions confronted, one can look into the likely interplay between these aspects of a nation. A large, conservative military might struggle for political power if faced with popular election of a liberal government favouring disarmament, while corporate entities making profits from trade with Britain would use economic influence to try and curtail outbursts of anti-English Scots nationalism.
And then everything comes together. The election of an anti-Catholic government in a country bordering New Spain impacts international relations... relations sour with New Spanish allies in Kiev, Rome, and Rhodesia, but opportunities open for closer relations with Kiev's rivals in Britain and Spyr. Economic opportunities open in those markets, but shrink in those now hostile, impacting the domestic population... the oil sector expands to satisfy new demand, but the crucifix manufacturing sector is badly mauled by loss of its customer base. Tense relations also impact the military situation, forcing an increased deployment of troops to the border... troops which are then unavailable to join peacekeeping efforts in Sab'yn. Unemployed crucifix manufacturers, disgruntled Sab'yn interventionists, and the We-Hate-Spyr Club, then oppose the anti-Catholic government in the next election, and so on.

Perhaps someone else can provide a more succinct description, or knows of a good tutorial floating around the forums somewhere.

BG: No particular attachment to the Sabre, other than I'll lose yet another pretty picture.


Meteor and Vampire ought fill the role well if the Yashimese didn't get the MiG-15... it seems our Korea saw a much more primitive sort of jet warfare, but still more than enough to prove the technology beyond doubt. And, if a 'Sabre' really appears necessary, this IS AMW... Spyrans may well have had a natural knack for jet engineering in building a counter for early Kieven MiGs. Likewise with Firestreak/Red Top, which satisfy Spyr's requirements at the time.

Though that does bring up the more general topic of US weapons used by other states... the Americans have had quite an influence on the field of military equipment, and if there's anything US-supplied in RL that's needed in an AMW context, we ought work out exactly where they've come from, or what non-US-source technology replaces them in our context.

In the above case, with the Firestreak replacing the Sidewinder, would the Vympel K-13 be derived from Firestreak rather than Sidewinder? Would the Kievens have developed K-13 and its IR guidance all on their own? Gotten it from another Anglo-German missile? Lagged behind in SRAAM development until surprising everyone by popping out the Aphid in the 70s?

[Dra-pol]

That is a pretty picture, I suppose.

Right, I suppose things are getting a bit muddier than they need to be. After all, the only country actually still using any aircraft from the period is the CPRD. If Spyr ever had Sabres, or if it had Meteors, Vampires, or whatever instead, they'll presumably be long withdrawn there, while the UPAAF may still have some deployed as light attackers close to the new line of control and around Hamhŭng-Hŭngnam, not to mention as trainers, 'special attackers', and such.

This has all reminded me why I picked out the Shinden for special Drapoel attention all those years ago. I mean, look at the following specifications:

Length: Shinden 9.66m; MiG-15 10.11m; F-86 11.4m
Span: Shinden 11.11m; MiG-15 10.08m; F-86 11.3m
Wing Area: Shinden 20.5m2; MiG-15 20.6m2; F-86 29.1m2
Empty Weight: Shinden 3,645kg; MiG-15 3,580kg; F-86 5,046kg
Loaded Weight: Shinden 4,928kg; MiG-15 4,960kg; F-86 6,894kg
Wing Loading: Shinden 240kg/m2; MiG-15 240.8kg/m2
Guns: Shinden 4x30mm cannon; MiG-15 2x23mm and 1x37mm

Obviously Shinden's performance characteristics are significantly inferior, but that's when driven by a Mitsubishi piston engine generating 1,589kW. IRL the Japanese drew up plans for a jet-driven Shinden-Kai that, from what I can tell, wouldn't have offered all that much better performance, but, I was thinking, if Dra-pol captures Yashiman Shindens, be they prop or jet driven, and Spyr says, "Hey, so I bought this Supermarine Attacker, and it had this sweet Rolls-Royce Nene turbojet..."

Oh, yeah, I suppose I have just noticed that the Attacker would potentially have been available, as it first flew in '46 and was introduced in '51 in the Royal Navy, and that the Hawker Sea Hawk was introduced in British service a few months before the armistice on the peninsula and may conceivably have been tried out in the conflict, so really we could just ask Gurg if he'd be okay with us having Attacker Alley in which Yashiman Me.262 knock-offs were chopped up by Supermarine aircraft. But it just strikes me that the Nene is the engine from which the Soviets developed the MiG-15's VK-1 in reality. The rather MiG-15-sized Shinden with a powerplant derived from the same source as the MiG's seems to hang together pretty well on preliminary consideration, no?

Presumably it would be more trouble than it's worth to follow this by suggesting that maybe Britain gave the Nene to Spyr instead of to Russia... =)

Anyway, now I'm thinking that Sulo's troops just happen to do an unusually good job of capturing Shinden airframes, plans, components, machine jibs, or whatever. Perhaps the massive defections of southerners to the northern side in the early days of Sulo's offensive -which were substantial IRL and would be even bigger given Yashiman occupation- include a regiment of native pilots flying piston-engine Shindens (while Yashiman pilots were being converted to primitive jets). So the Free Army starts flying a few prop-Shinden while Spyr busies itself convincing Britain to share the Nene... London regrets having given the technology to Kyiv but, now that the genie's out of the bottle, seeks at least to redress the balance of power by doing the same for Sithin rather than see all Asia fall to Kyiv and Takamatsu. Spyr builds an engine based on the Nene and puts it in a modified Shinden airframe handed over by Sulo, and we have our preliminary replacement for the MiG-15/F-86.

However, it's rather a rushed job, and the airframe certainly has its limits, so Spyr goes on to produce something outwardly similar to the Sabre, powered with something derived from the Nene, a Spyran VK-1, essentially meaning that AMW's Sabre is built by AMW's China with what is essentially the MiG-15's engine. For the sake of your F-54 picture, Spyr simply does a good job of gradually uprating the Nene over a couple of versions until it's as powerful as later mark General-Electric J-47s, which I think is quite reasonable. Maybe the first version would be heavy and underpowered compared to MiG-15, but would kick the tar out of Yashiman jets, and later versions would fare better as formative Spyran capabilities with jet engine building evolve.

So, Dra-pol would get all the Nene-Shindens once Spyr has F-54 Kafu in production, and even these would be superior to Yashima's own Shindens and other machines using WWII-era motors, until, perhaps, Kyiv hands over the VK-1 and suddenly its level pegging again, and there are Rolls-Royce Nene knock-offs being produced left right and centre by Capitalists, Feudalists, and Communists.

Later, as Spyr drops its Kafus, they're transfered to Dra-pol, and continue to serve in reduced roles today, equivalent to the DPRK's MiG-17s while its Nene-Shindens are comparable with the MiG-15s that may or may not still exist in the DPRK.

Long-winded, but I think I like it.

[Spyr]

And it all falls into place.

I do love AMW.

[Nova Gaul]

Seems like AMW's Church is a hectic affair. Rome's more powerful with its empire, and there are more theocratic Christian states, but few of them seem to agree on the basics. Presumably the fact that there's still a large, vocal pagan country in Europe keeps the Pope from worrying too much about Tordian unorthodoxy.

That was by our friend BG on the application thread--and it got me to thinking that we really ought to do this Papal RP. To decide the future of the Papacy of course, but also, importantly, start to answer some questions about religion in AMW. We have never really taken on religion by itself, and I say it is high time we do so.

As far as I can see only the Kingdom of New Spain and the Roman Empire adhere to orthodox Catholicism to the point that it is omnipresent, generally socially required, and enforced by state actions. I imagine the Church in Britain (from a few things Gurg has said I imagine Ireland is still a true believer) and Cassanos follows Rome as we know it, although looking at things anew I wonder if they really do? With Henry VII being a bit more vicious or Hitler having had a larger grudge against the Pope it is easy to see a very changed Catholicism in Northern Europe. Then, on our sliding scale of ‘blasphemers’, Tord would be fairly unheretical, Kiev broke away with the Byzantines (or did it now since we don’t have a Anatolia/Turkey?), but most likely generally believes with their Western cousins about the fundamental doctrines, and of course there is Yashima that claimed Jesus was born again to them. Hmm.

I like how the reboot has gone, and especially like how we have booted all need for NPC nations. But BG’s point above is key…religion would be far different in AMW than as we know it. And that’s why I want to do that RP—we would elect a Pope as discussed above, but I am thinking maybe it can also be an opportunity to explore beliefs or heresies (depending on your point of view) at large. I want to see Yashimese bishops coming to argue about Yashima’s relation to Mother Church, Orthodox patriarchs from Kiev coming to redefine the Orthodox Church’s relation to Rome, and maybe even some raucous pagan Begdellen protestors who are there for God knows what reason. It goes without saying there would be Spyrian delegates. And yes there would even, God forbid, be a few Anglicans on tap too.

We need to RP this.

I have several ideas to get us started, but Rome’s and Kiev’s absence is holding me back. Caesar, Tsar, lets get moving here! Helloooo!

Oh, also, one more thought about post-reboot AMW: air travel. Since NPC nations are cut now, wouldn’t all flights have to go over the ocean or a PC state—no alternatives? That would certainly make things interesting for New Spain, it would literally be the crossroads of world airfare. For example take a flight from London to Sydney. If the flight chose not to take either the Ciudad Real or San Salvador hub routes they would have to travel over Europe, then the Middle East, then Asia, and finally Oceania. Rhodesia and Egypt would also be prime aerial real estate as well, and good luck avoiding flying over Kiev! I just thought it was an interesting idea, and that we should use it, as it would continue to bind our reality together.

I suppose that also goes for trade as well. We really ought not have any trade with NPC nations if it can be avoided at all.

[Beth Gellert]

I would think that a major reason for any recent swerves away from Rome by foreign churches would be the rise of the new empire and all of the political connotations that bears.

Anyway, for now, History Ahoy!

[Spyr]

On the subject of NPC states and access, there are a few major issues. Not the least of which is the fact that Singapore is stuck importing its water from Australia rather than across the Johor ^_^.

If we're going to hold that NPC airspace cannot be violated, the same would have to be said for territorial waters, which raises a number of issues as without borders we dont know what NPCs can claim which bodies of water as internal and which are international, where shipping is allowable and where it is not. Can ships pass through Malacca? Can anyone get into/out of the Black Sea?

Difficult problem to resolve, really.

[Nova Gaul]

Thanks for responding to the point Spyr. I think it is a critical issue, one we ought to discuss especially before all the new countries we seem to have brought in begin to RP in earnest. First off there are several special RP states, Saby’n (?) for one, Yashima, and Singapore I suppose as well. They would be excluded I think from any such discussion. And doesn’t Rome technically hold the Dardanelles right now? But as for the rest…

I would say that to keep things simple…yes, ships and air traffic must pass through either international air space/international waters or receive the permission of PC states to pass through them. Regarding NPC states and their territorial claim of waters we simply use RL standards. This way our trade/relations always affect another PC state, just as real world actions always affect real world states. Therefore yes, I suppose Malacca would be out—for now. It may seem a bit confusing, but I think this course of action will go a long way towards us creating a more tractable world.

[Beth Gellert]

Yeah, I think things like Malacca must be used, because not doing so would have the same potential for creating baggage issues. If someone came along playing a nation in Sumatra or whatever and it had previously come up that Malacca was closed to traffic that nation would probably have to explain why it'd closed the straits and upset half the world.

On the Dardanelles, no, they're NPC at the moment, though in my WWI proposal I've mooted the idea of at least past Geletian occupation of the western shores. I don't know if that's going to proceed, though it would at least help us to settle the issue of access, whether my Adriatic and Black Sea fleets can support one another (and, accordingly, how each of them is structured, which would be good to know incase of conflict with either Russia or Rome), and so on. Though, even if it was occupied in 1914, I suppose it's not settled that the BDR still holds the territory, having lost that war, and the next one (kinda), and Greece.

On the one hand I'm inclined also to say that airspace should basically be free to transit, to make things simple and practical, but on the other hand, making a habit of flying over what turns out to be the next Dra-pol or of needing to refuel in the next Tawantinsuyu would be impractical at best.

[Spyr]

We're damned if we do, damned if we don't, when it comes to (non-) interaction with NPCs.

As someone who has thought of oozing out over Shandong to ensure stable access from Bohai to Yellow, I'd certainly back expansion of the Bedgellens out to the western shore... its a slight change, cleans things up a bit in south-eastern Europe, and solves the issue of Black Sea access. May be a bone of contention between Roman Greece and the BDR, as if there weren't enough already... populated by the Cornitouti, taken as spoils by the Greeks at the end of the First World War, poorly controlled by an Athens unable to cope with a tight mass of uncooperative Celts, and eventually re-uniting into Greater Bedgeletia (ahaha, sorry...) when the dust cleared after Llewellyn's fall?

That would solve one, but there are others. It may be worth taking a look at major sea and air routes which are currently considered international corridors, so we can review and compile a list in order to know both where exactly we're allowed to go and what issues ought be brought up with new bids to see if we can keep things consistent.

If nothing else, the venerable history of AMW says we ought decree Malacca an international passage. Perhaps the International Strait of Bonstock: a memorial to RPs long past and players best forgotten ^_^.

[Tahuantinsuyu Empire]

Actually, I'm much in favour of keeping little references -in jokes, easter eggs, whatever you fancy calling them- to bygone players, nations, and events lost to the restart. So long there's no attempt to force associated history on anyone. The Strait of Bonstock, the Bonstock Passage, or something of that sort would be fine, and IC scholars could argue about its origin and forward any theories that occur. Local powers can still call it by other names. And I've no problem with minor adjustments to borders and accounts from established players, especially since Beddgelert's tiny next to its neighbours and Spyr on an outgoing day exhibits all the power-projection capabilities of Cuba. I think the only reason my nation falls short of historic Inka borders in some regions -particularly in the south- is that I got sick of trawling through pages on the geography and demographics of Chilean subdivisions and didn't want to start on Argentina If other people have more patience, all power too them.

[Beth Gellert]

Oh, while I remember to express my creeping sense of panic, I do hope that Vecron and Kievskaya Rus are still with us! I note that neither has logged in for some two weeks, and it'd be a real shame to lose them just as things were picking up. Do I remember something about Vec being temporarily busy? Or was that ages ago?

The next thing that the BDR initiates IC is going to be chiefly a military provocation aimed at Kyiv and Rome, and I rather think its edge may be dulled by their ignorance of it.

Anyway, it looks like I'm going to go ahead with the Eastern Thrace thing, then. That'll nicely settle my borders and their historic shifts and disputes (so long as Vec and KR stay), and BG will still be inferior to Germany in terms of population and will stay in the same rank order on the continent, though it'll probably move up to about the size of the British isles without its wider empire (which makes it still about four times larger than I'll be). Or, 'bout 15% of BG's pre-restart size.

I think we'll probably need to have taken it back sooner than Llewellyn's fall in order to avoid Tsarist blocks. I was thinking yes, as you say, Spyr, that Geletia loses Eastern Thrace as a consequence of ill-advised anti-Greek aggression in the Great War, being forced to cede it partly to repay the Kingdom for all the damage done, partly in an effort to dispel the ghosts of the major Celtic upset of British Empire forces in the infamous Dinasbrenelles Campaign (see, I've already Celticised the place ), and also as part of a calculating British move to strategically hinder whichever Russia emerges victorious from the civil war.

We get it back in WWII, invading a larger-than-RL Greece to support the floundering Italians, and hold on to it by virtue of our clever decision to switch sides before it's too late this time around. Llewellyn, coming to power during the war amidst a Tsarist-backed coup, occupies all mainland Greece once again, booting out the other Axis forces and annoying the Tsar by declining to put all his efforts into the drive on Germany. He justifies it with a view to a post-war environment in which the Western Allies and Tsarists may be at odds, and having a pro-British Greece in control on the Celtic [Turkish] Straits would be a negative thing considering what happened after the last war. Still, with Geletia ruined by the war and the Greek islands independent and likely crawling with British warships he is quickly forced to return mainland Greece to the Greeks, but refuses to budge on Eastern Thrace, receiving the backing of a Tsar keen to reverse former pro-British control at the strategic chokepoint. Britain can either threaten to nuke Russia over the issue and hope they don't call the possible bluff, or agree to compromise, much to the annoyance of the Greeks, and let Llewellyn hang on to Eastern Thrace.

I'll stick a bit more in the Great War thread at some point.

[Nova Gaul]

Creeping sense of panic seconded.

I have been wanting to do that Papal RP for a bit now—like you I’ve noticed Rome and Russia seem to have been napping. And it seems like the second week of absence does bring up that red flag…

Fiddlesticks!

I mean so much of our history, wonderfully new and rewritten history (just when we seem to have gotten everything realistic and right) depends of Kiev and Rome. Ug.

Wake up guys!

And about that WWII. I like the Byzantine fellow, and if he joins AMW, we may have many answers about what happened in Anatolia during WWI.

[Arabian Oil]

I'm pretty sure I was accepted, I know at least one person said I was ok, so here's the nation I might be posting with. This one or Kagetora at least.

Anyway, I'll get to work on a factbook. You want me to put it on the AMW Forums?

[Spyr]

Arabian Oil: On the offsite forum, or on the NS forums proper would be fine, so long as you don't mind a lot of other people posting and sending you back for edits. Typically a new member's factbook is where we iron out details, make final objections, and suggestions for how your state and our own may have interacted in the past, before you get too far immersed in our little world.

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Kiev and Vecron, you'd better be back soon. Damned if I'm going to rewrite everything yet again so soon after finally settling the Japanese question.

Which brings me to the question we probably need to ask at this point... what do we do if we lose one or both of those players? Kiev alone has indirect influence on nearly every state due to its status as the leader of the monarchists during the Cold War, and very direct influence on the history of the BDR and the Baltic States (who really become different things entirely without our Orthodox Imperial power). One of the goals of our major AMW reset was to free ourselves from the weight of history imposed on the world by long-lost players and interactions with NPCs, but in this case I'm very much of the view that while we might lose the player we can't lose the state... if we've no Kiev in the present, we ought at least maintain a Kiev in the past, and suggest ways new players might adapt the history or use it as a jumping off point for new nations. This may be the case with Rome as well, though to a somewhat lesser extent.

More generally, the possibility of losing players in major roles may well be a warning that we should be careful about accepting new claims that are too large or too populous, in case this problem crops up again.

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On claim adjustment for existing members, we've got BG expanding to take Eastern Thrace, minus Constantinople?

As mentioned above, I'm rather nervously looking at my own shipping situation. While Spyr's economy today is rather focused on domestic markets, it followed (or invented, in an AMW context) the idea of development-by-selling-cheap-things-to-white-people in the 60s and 70s. Such goods would have to be shipped by sea (the Trans-Siberian not being viable or necessarily accessible), which involves high-volume passage from Bohai Sea ports into the Yellow Sea and onward (to Europe via the Bonstock Strait and Suez). Looking at a map, the Dra-pol-Yashima-NPCShandong triangle makes high-volume shipping into and out of the Bohai somewhat less viable. Would there be much objection to an expansion of the Spyran border a province southward, to ensure we've had stable Yellow Sea access?

[Beddgelert]

Aye, that's worth noting. AMW factbooks often fill up with posts from other players, but if you're worried about tidiness either save a few posts at the very start, or just include in the first post a list of links to invidual posts throughout the thread. Apologies if that sounds patronisingly obvious, but I've known people get very touchy about their factbooks : )

In Kyiv and Rome, hm. I think you are certainly right that in the event of KR's departure anyone taking over at least part of his territory would have to take on some of his historic duties, so to speak. I imagine it wouldn't be a big deal to change from Russians to Someoneelses, but a good deal of whose-side-they-were-on would have to remain with respect to the nation-shaping conflicts of the last century at least. I can't even imagine what would happen if KR were replaced by someone playing a Communist power or Manchu empire.

You may have a point about restrictions on size, though I'd say perhaps power and influence matter more than population, as presently the loss of India would likely mean less to the histories and cultures of other nations than would the loss of 100x smaller Al'Andalus. Presently I don't think there are any Bangla states in the Americas, after all.

Since I'm fairly sure that you won't be leaving us any time soon (RIGHT?) I really don't object to Spyr's expansion. We've got India, we had the US+Canada, so you'd hardly be out of line so long as we get to keep you once your influence has expanded. I might suggest a scaling-down of per-capita GDP inverse to scaling-up of population, but then again I don't really care : )

[Marimaia]

Putting in a vote to support Spyr's expansion; I was allowed to add South Africa for RP reasons and better national history, so it's only fair.