AMW Big Discussion Thread

[Kyr Shorn]

If you really want to feel small, I just did up Nilosahara's population figured and he tops the population list at over 162 million people. Even the Romans are feeling smaller at this point.

You forgot Aegyptus on the list, we're at 78,302,000. (minus the Sinai of course)

[Chrinthania]

If you really want to feel small, I just did up Nilosahara's population figured and he tops the population list at over 162 million people. Even the Romans are feeling smaller at this point.

You forgot Aegyptus on the list, we're at 78,302,000. (minus the Sinai of course)

that belongs on the list on the offsite....... And it's fixed

[The Amyclae]

A recent RP between me and Kyr has gotten me thinking, again, about the composition of the Catholic Church. In particular the order, or presence, of certain schisms.

There's a debate to be had over whether the non-Chalcedonian churches, like the Copts, ever reunited with the Catholic Church as a whole without the Arab invasions. After all, the theological differences are reasonably small (if they exist at all) and I can't help wonder if anyone would mind if the schism was simply swept under the rug? Not that it would change too much, but it would give a certain unity to 'the' Church that is currently lacking. Worse, it's on account of a few historical coincidences that we don't consider part of our historic 'canon.'

[Chrinthania]

Well, there doesn't appear to be any schism with the Catholic Church, only the advent of Lutheranism. So, I guess that's okay by me.

[Nilosahara]

Nilosahara too has no problem with the expanded Walmingtonian Empire.

With the previous Rhodesia's collapse our dictators need a new external colonialist focus to galvanise the nation

[Kyr Shorn]

You know if the Christian Church was more unified until the Protestant Reformation then Aegyptus might wind up being more Anti-Christian than I originally planned...

*is getting ideas*

[Chrinthanium]

You know, WoS, I was thinking about what you said about AMW not really having too many smaller states. I think that stems from the fact that there's always going to be the feeling that people need to compete in AMW. That, if WoS is 127 million, and Rome is 105 million, and their GDPs are in the top 10, and Gandvik is 110 million (or whatever it is), etc... that people are always going to go for that larger number. Even you grew the empire to keep up with the rush of larger nations in AMW, though the reasoning is quite understandable.

I have had the misfortune of jumping at claims without actually thinking them out before placing an application in the thread. This is what has led me to jump around so much. Ideas that seem good to me may not work in the current claim, so I abandon the current claim and move on to a new claim where it will work. Rome, on the other hand, is different. I came in with an idea and have stuck with it. It works for me. It doesn't just seem okay, it seems, dare I say, natural.

The idea of having a smaller claim in AMW than what I already have has crossed my mind. I've thought about dropping Spain and Portugal from the Roman Empire. I've thought that, for a while, if I did that, it would work better for me. As you can tell, this claim does feel that it's very Italo-centric with the Iberians thrown in here and there for good measure. So, I sat down at the computer and tinkered with the claim on Open Office Writer to see if I could drop the claim in Iberia and still have it feel like it works for me. And it doesn't. The idea doesn't work, in my opinion, without Iberian territory. That doesn't mean I wouldn't run a small population claim, just that the idea I'm working with dictates a certain amount of territory.

As I have said in a post previous, there is a slight chance that someone may come along and take the sliver of land that was once held by Councordia, which amounts to around 10 million people, and that, if they wanted a tad more, I could make some concession on my part to help accommodate that. Though, to be honest, I did that for someone else in North America, and it turned out that I grew to resent the idea. So, that being said, it would have to be someone who seems to hint that they have staying power in AMW and isn't really a man pretending to be a woman (don't ask).

Then it got me to thinking about a small claim for a second claim. Not a satellite nation, so much, but a small claim. So I jumped on Bali. Why not, right? It a couple million Indonesians on an island with practically no natural resources. This means it would really affect too many other people willing to jump into AMW in the same region of the world. Hell, they could even take Bali itself if they wanted and I'd be fine with that. And it was that thought that gave me pause. If I'm willing to let it go for someone else, why bother to claim it now in the first place? So, I formally drop any claims on Bali.

WoS and TCB are about the only ones who've managed to successfully balance out having two claims. It works for them. What would AMW be with both Avarga and Gandvik, Walmington and Drapol. While the secondary claims may not always seem to get the same air time, they work.

Quite unfairly, I did jump at WoS a bit because of the large geography of his proposed empire. I think I came around over night while I slept. I woke up today thinking that there is something to this large empire that can influence so many around the world--even if it isn't quite the way the English intend in AMW. Certainly people are going to want the English to be around to colonize. Why? Because without it, you couldn't do a sort of USA, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, etc.... So it is a good thing, overall.

In modern history, it was England, Spain, Portugal, and France who had these large empires strewn across the globe. Even the Dutch managed to have a semblance of a global empire. Perhaps, as I have stated before, my ideas for a Roman Empire that never really looked to the New World for a place to expand imperial gains is wrong. Not just because there may come a time in the future when someone may want Spanish or Portuguese influence in a future claim, but that they made a profound impact around the world, even if they didn't attain the heights that Britain did IRL.

Of course, to add to the Roman Empire would probably cause more friction than I would like. I can sense from at least one member, if not two or three, that any more expansion of the Roman Empire wouldn't be a good idea. Once you hit 100+ million in a claim, it's really difficult to add to it to make people feel okay with any more expansion. I know a few out there wouldn't care and others who do care would either withhold judgement or only give me a light slap on the wrist (apart from Beeg, who would nuke my house from Lancashire), but I'm starting to feel that there has to be a reason that the English feel competition from the Romans.

Rome concentrates on the Mediterranean right now. Outside of that, it probably has little impact in the general global geopolitical situation. She cannot dispatch her military nilly-willy across the globe at a moments notice to fight for or against anyone else. It would take too much time, and too many resources to get everything across the globe in that instance. To be perfectly honest, I don't really need or want that ability either. But there has to be some reason the English feel that Rome is competition for them in some way.

It has to be their idea of Civilizing. The Romans and the English, at least in AMW, tend to think of themselves as highly-civilized nations. Rome can sit there and point at the things it has contributed to Western Civilization. Things that it invested or improved long before the English race came about. I will assume that the Romans did take part in the Age of Exploration. It's too difficult to avoid when you have Spain and Portugal in the claim and have so many navigators that you could send around the globe.

Rome isn't in the financial position to exert a ton of influence in global markets because of the fact our reach doesn't go that far. At least in the here and now. That doesn't mean that, if future claimants come about wanting me to colonize that this idea wouldn't change to some degree. But, it really can't do much outside of Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa.

I think part of it is the fact the Roman Empire is a bit more homogeneous than the English Empire. The fact is, there may be 40-some-odd-million English, but the remainder of the 127-million-person empire is made up of aboriginals who have been, to whatever degree, Anglicized. The 104.5 million Romans are, in fact, Romans. They may have slightly differing languages and cultural idiosyncracies because of the geography of the empire, but, at the root, they're all Romans and no one has any doubt of that fact. The empire as it is today has been a cohesive unit for 2,000 years and that allows the culture to have solidified and remained united with one common identity among the population than you might find in different parts of the Walmingtonian Empire.

Another influence here is the Roman Catholic Church. While it is part of the Roman claim, it's not part of the empire in ways I believe some people may think. Rome and the Church itself are distinct entities with their own agendas. The Emperor wants nothing to do with Catholicism, the Roman Empire has laws in place to keep religion out of government, and, while the average Roman may very well be Catholic, I doubt that Emperor Hadrian II, or Consul-General Scaramella, are really interested in revisiting the error of trying to influence the globe through the Roman Catholic Church. Some people may consider them linked and blame one for the others shortcomings, but, the reality is they are separate units within the same empire. And I can see, if the Anglican church is represented, why the English might feel Rome has a distinct advantage in influencing the world if there are now, and potentially in the future, hundreds of millions of Catholics in the world.

As all of this may well be reasons to put forth to explain why Rome and Walmington would compete, the fact of the matter is that Rome doesn't think it has to compete with the English. It feels all the English are doing is taking the blueprint the Romans created and carrying out to more of an extreme. It also feels the English are a young upstart (relative to the age of the Roman Empire anyway) who wants to prove it can do things better than the Romans could ever hope.

Rome believes its civilization is the pinnacle of the civilized world. The English, Americans, and Greeks are in a solid tie for 2nd place, and the Gyptians, Valendians, Nibelung, Ganvians, probably come in tied for 3rd place. These nations are considered very much civilized in the Roman mindset, but, of course, they're not Romans, so, they suffer from that lack of influence (even if they may be Roman Catholic, for the most part).

On a side note, it is interesting that the Roman Empire keeps getting lumped together with 'Western Democracies' considering how much power the Roman Emperor actually has. It is power that may not extend outside of the borders of the empire, but within the empire, he has a lot more leeway than most people think. He's not an autocrat. There are some limitations to what he can actually do, but, the reality of the situation is, the government very much copies the idea of the Roman Principate created by Augustus, just updated for the modern world.

[Kyr Shorn]

I'm going to lay out a rough outline of how the Gyptian government works, so people can try and gauge how their nations will react to it.

The Kingdom of Aegyptus is ruled by a unitary absolute monarchy, while there isn't a formal state religion, the blended Greco-Buddhist/Kemetic Polytheistic faith followed by over 2/3rds of the nation effectively serves as one.

The government is heavily tied to the current Thess Dynasty, ruled by the new King Darius VIII, the vast majority of officials appointed by HM are loyal blood relatives of the dynasty through Ramesses XVIII's many children and grandchildren.

There is a token democractic process in which the subjects of the Kingdom elect a 'Consulative Counsel' which has the power to make proposals and advise the King, but has little real power.

All elected politicans are stand-alone, as political parties in the way the west understands them are banned.

Government policy is crafted through consensus building between HM and various powerbrokers and advisers both official and unofficial, to have access to the King is to have access to power in Aegyptus.

While there are restrictions on freedom of speech, they are not as harsh/severe as in most dictatorships, the people are largely free to live as they wish so long as they don't challenge the power of the State.

There is Freedom of Religion within the Kingdom, though groups designated as 'extreme sects' have been persecuted in the past, and there are anti-blapshemy laws in place, Darius has yet to address this issue so early in his formal reign.

In terms of formal foreign relations, Aegyptus views Areopagitican as an ancient enemy and several wars have been waged between them. It considers Walmington's rule over Nubia as an illegal occupation but tolerates the modern status quo as a 'temporary state of affairs', and a useful buffer between the Kingdom and Nilosahara (which is viewed as dangerously unstable).

Not sure about Caanan, depends on how they gained the Sinai.

I would guess that modern Aegyptus gets along with Byzantium, Geletia, and Rome, maintains a working relationship with Nibelunc and Valendia, frosty but cordial relationship with Walmington, Esmera could go in any direction really. No clue about Amerique or Gandvig or the Shield, on Arabia I think that the Gyptian monarchs had a cold working relationship with the old Monarchy and view the current state of that nation as 'anarchy'.

In many respects you could compare the Gyptian government to a mixture of Imperial Japan, Modern People's Republic of China, and Saudi Arabia.

So, make sense?

[The Crooked Beat]

Hey AMW!

Introducing a small side-project, or more accurately spin-off, if any of you are interested:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=237200

Actually, prequel might be the best way to describe it.

[Walmington on Sea]

I'm working up a rough map of Amberland, for that. It's going to look like a dog's dinner, but I want to get the place names sorted, so that should be done before this next week is out.


On a loosely related point, I'm writing in brief descriptions of the towns and their histories as I go, and it's got me wondering about historic wars even more remote in time than our Great War. The Napoleonic Wars... Valendia does what? Conquers much of the Western Roman Empire, Nibelunc, part of Geletia, and cripples the Shieldian Empire, before getting hopelessly lost in the mounts of the rest of Geletia? I'm just wondering about Amberland's role, if any, in those wars, as IRL East Prussia took a good hammering at times. I'd be okay with southern parts of Amberland falling to Napoleon, if it helps the narrative at all... I'd definitely like to have English forces engaged with Napoleonic ones, at some point, so that the Walmingtonian focus shifts to Europe and away from America, allowing Amerique to chance its hand at WoS's expense.

If, for example, EP and Ian want to have The Battle of Cambridge on English territory, probably with Amberlanders falling besides the Shieldians, that'd be fine. Kingsmount, meanwhile, doesn't fall, because the Royal Navy arrives in the Frisian Bay and gives any daring Napoleonic interdictors what-for, then drops off a few thousand Canadian Marines.

Have I already talked about this? Botheration.



Ever wish that you were already asleep? Fell asleep while reading this, eh? Smart-arse.

[Chrinthanium]

AS far as Napoleon and the WRE, well, he gets in Spain quickly, but we push him back almost as quickly. He never invades or comes into Italy. It makes almost no real lasting impression on the WRE outside of showing us our borders werent as secure as we thought. Then Great War happens, and we're invades en masse.

Speaking of Great War, as long as what happens in that thread has absolutely no influence on the already-established history, I'm fine with that thread being an IC/OOC AMW thread.

[Acadzia]

I'm wondering if my two fellow Asian nations would have any thoughts on their contacts with Atlantis throughout the ages.

Emesa and Atlantis, separated only by the Strait of Malacca, would have interacted at least once, I'm thinking. And then that gets me wondering if claiming Sumatra was a dick move. Jean has created this really intriguing "hunkered down at the end of the world" thing with the Marcian wall. And then I kind of just pop up behind him . I chose Sumatra kind of in a vacuum, not really considering how it would affect his history.

I suppose, though, that it's not too difficult to reconcile. Atlantis, with one exception that I've delineated already in my factbook, is pretty fractured for most of its history. Orin Santubari meets St. Didymus, is baptized with his household, and takes the cognomen Budakdoma, Slave of the Lamb. His Christian dynasty rules the island in its totality for 100 years, at which point Atlantis descends into a free-for all. Emesa, and perhaps Dra-pol if they sailed that far south, would merely be, at most, another contender in those bloody battles.

[Nova Gaul]

I'm wondering if my two fellow Asian nations would have any thoughts on their contacts with Atlantis throughout the ages.

Emesa and Atlantis, separated only by the Strait of Malacca, would have interacted at least once, I'm thinking. And then that gets me wondering if claiming Sumatra was a dick move. Jean has created this really intriguing "hunkered down at the end of the world" thing with the Marcian wall. And then I kind of just pop up behind him . I chose Sumatra kind of in a vacuum, not really considering how it would affect his history.

I suppose, though, that it's not too difficult to reconcile. Atlantis, with one exception that I've delineated already in my factbook, is pretty fractured for most of its history. Orin Santubari meets St. Didymus, is baptized with his household, and takes the cognomen Budakdoma, Slave of the Lamb. His Christian dynasty rules the island in its totality for 100 years, at which point Atlantis descends into a free-for all. Emesa, and perhaps Dra-pol if they sailed that far south, would merely be, at most, another contender in those bloody battles.

Plenty of room behind the wall man. Yes, I'm back bitches!

Actually, I imagine there was quite a lot of contact between Atlantis and Emesa...I like what you're doing, BTW. In the main, I cannot emphasize enough - at least by my lights - how the history of Emesa has been nearly totally dominated by its warfare with the Drapoel kingdoms and with their evil collectivism of late. Without that spectre, I imagine Emesa (Romans by blood) would have been quite eager to get involved directly with Atlantean problems.

Moving into modernity, I think we might have the equivalent of SEATO maybe, especially after the Walmies took off after the failed venture. And as I hope to do in RP before too long, there is now a school of thought in Emesa that wants to make Asia 'safe for democracy'. Which, of course, has implications for the Reds!

EDIT: Oh, and yes, especially with recent domination of Emesa by the Liberals, I expect if Atlantis was willing there would be a number of free-trade agreements between Atlantis and Emesa. You have resources, we have finished goods, etc. Just another feather in Singapore's cap.

[Walmington on Sea]

I think the Valendians arrived in the region in the 1520s, if memory serves, but this may be incorrect, and conquered Brunei, while similarly the Walmingtonians at least passed through in the 1520s, Sir Harold Wendsleybury attempting his circumnavigation of the globe from 1521-23, though he was shipwrecked before completing it. He may have visited the Atlanteans along the way, however briefly, and possibly even left a representative from the court of Queen Mavis, depending on how the Englishmen were received.

In Drapol, meanwhile, civilisation bloomed quite early, with some of the world's earliest urban centres emerging there, though mostly in Upper Drapol, which is inland and unlikely to have had contact with ancient Atlantis. For centuries multiple dynasties fought for control in Drapol, with the eastern Pin'drap Dynasty typically the one at war with Emesa, and the Ide Kingdom of IRL Rakhine State a seafaring power likely to have known of Atlantis. Certainly the Ide often raided Emesan territory in the Andaman and Nicobar islands, and may have attempted the occasional long-range smash-and-grab attack against Atlantean assets.

From the Late Middle Ages, the Sudrap Dynasty of Upper Drapol began to conquer the others, starting with the rich Kingdom of Ke in the fertile Myian ((Ayeyarwady)) Delta, followed by the Ide and Pin'draps. The Sudraps, even generations before the Industrial Revolution in the west, had blast furnaces turning out advanced steels, gunpowder weapons ((mostly in the form of rocket artillery, firesticks, and ceramic grenades)), and large, disciplined military forces including cavalry ((on stout little mountain ponies from IRL Shan State)), war elephants, longbow men, and spearmen used in formation, as well as reasonably formidable war canoes of considerable size.

Walmington ends up conquering Borneo except Brunei ((I still don't know exactly when, or whether WoS fights other foreign powers such as Valendia or even Amerique in the process)) and most of Drapol except the traditional Sudrap heartland in the north, and also makes Emesa hardly more than a client state for quite some time. I won't make any absolute statements on the Empire's relationship with Atlantis without first hearing your own thoughts, Acadzia.

[Acadzia]

Plenty of room behind the wall man. Yes, I'm back bitches!

Actually, I imagine there was quite a lot of contact between Atlantis and Emesa...I like what you're doing, BTW. In the main, I cannot emphasize enough - at least by my lights - how the history of Emesa has been nearly totally dominated by its warfare with the Drapoel kingdoms and with their evil collectivism of late. Without that spectre, I imagine Emesa (Romans by blood) would have been quite eager to get involved directly with Atlantean problems.

Moving into modernity, I think we might have the equivalent of SEATO maybe, especially after the Walmies took off after the failed venture. And as I hope to do in RP before too long, there is now a school of thought in Emesa that wants to make Asia 'safe for democracy'. Which, of course, has implications for the Reds!

EDIT: Oh, and yes, especially with recent domination of Emesa by the Liberals, I expect if Atlantis was willing there would be a number of free-trade agreements between Atlantis and Emesa. You have resources, we have finished goods, etc. Just another feather in Singapore's cap.

Alright, it seems as though Atlantis and Emesa might have a begrudging, tepid respect out of their mutual fear of Drapol, in both earlier and in modern times.

I plan for Atlantis to be, presently, fairly backwards. Predominantly agrarian outside of the cities, while the cities are industrial but "developing", as is the proper nomenclature these days for "hot, poor, crowded shithole." The countryside is almost idyllic in its simplicity, while the cities are pretty bad, riddled with corruption and crime and racial conflict. Kudalaut (RL Medan) will be the prime example of the sort of city in Atlantis, with smog in the air and hunger in the streets.

Thierna Na Oge (Banda Aceh) sits as the capital, and the historical focal point of Christianity in Atlantis. Thierna, however, in modern times is the very antithesis to any sort of creed that values the "least of these." The City is luxurious and safe and most of the country's wealth is concentrated there. The King and the members of his Atas (all male), the upper house of "parliament", control the province and sink money into it to keep it fairly developed and clean.

So, amidst all that oligarchy, I would say the liberal Emesans and Walmies would have some work to do. I plan to have a lower house of parliament, the Majelis. Perhaps this was a concession by some previous, more enlightened king than the current, HRM King Orm, (Orm's father would be an example of that, and, now that I think on it, his reign would coincide nicely with the advent of the post-Great War[?] Emesan cargo-cult and subsequent cooperation with Walmington.)

Or perhaps it was forced onto Atlantis after the end of some skirmish with either Emesa or Walmington, or both. The idea, and that's the important part, the "what" not the "how", is that the Atas is pretty ancient (I date it back to the late 2nd century) while the Majelis and its prime minister, the Suari, are the upstart thorn in the side of the royal, monied elite.

(RP-wise, I'm planning to take a page from Ian's book, and will be kicking things off soon with an insurrection of sorts, masterminded by the current Suari, Nuada Peraktangan, after some pretty egregious actions undertaken by the King.)

So, it depends a lot on how each of you would look at such a country. Charming little backwater in need of paternal and brotherly guidance, or a cesspit needed to be brought to heel. Probably a bit of both, but with Drapol in the north, Atlantis would seem a quaint foe, and easier to trade with than attempt to subjugate.

[Walmington on Sea]

Most likely, then, the English East-of-India Company, and families such as the Chaspot-Waynes, will have stuck their noses into Atlantis. There likely is or was an Anglo-Atlantean Petroleum Company competing with Shell for petro-chemical resources in the region, others investing or having historically invested in mining tin and coal, and producing and trading in timber, rubber, pepper, palm oil, and so on and so forth, and all too happy to exploit the poor masses and weak legal infrastructure in Atlantis. From some perspectives, WoS may be seen as a relatively liberal state, but it's still a market-driven capitalist imperial power, after all.

Obviously the extent of Walmingtonian economic involvement is ultimately up to you, but historically the Empire would have been militant in the protection of its interests, and some of the companies, especially powerful chartered ones like the English East of India Co., extremely aggressive.

[Nova Gaul]

Very much enjoying your ideas Acadzia, again, great to have you back.

Of course you know me…when you say Emesa is ‘liberal’ it is more in the sense of the “Liberal’ Party of 19th Century Britain, as is distinct from Labour to be sure, Free trade is the name of the game, with limited social reforms and welfare. In actuality, although the Emesans were ‘Anglicized’ by Walmington, they are several shades more conservative. The upshot is Palmyra would not mind at all supporting a fairly corrupt oligarchy in Thierna Na Oge, provided it kept up basic democratic freedoms and, far more important, kept Atlantis open to trade. Indeed, I suspect that Emesan industry (which I increasingly see along the lines of the Korean Chaebol or the Japanese Zaibatsu) would be quite happy to see rural Atlantis remain fairly backwards, if only because this would give Emesa a fairly favorable trade balance. I even imagine that migrant Atlantean workers in Singapore factories would be overlooked by all except the Conservatives, who’d say ‘those immigrants are taking native jobs!” Despite they get paid 1/5 the rate.

Of course in the final analysis Emesa is Walmington’s side-kick as far as Southeast Asia goes. At least, until the English pulled out of Dra-pol and left Emesa a very bad neighbor indeed. So depending on how the English act, that is, whether or not WoS makes larger commitments to stay in the region and support it with trade and guns, will very much affect relations between Emesa and Atlantis. Suffice it to say currently Emesa would be delighted with the status quo in Atlantis, would maybe push for a few conspicuous reforms that (best case) have little substance, and would hawk-eyed for any ‘symptoms’ of the Kurosite disease.

[Walmington on Sea]

The English are certainly staying in the region for the long-haul, there's just debate about exactly what strategy to adopt. Ceyloba and Borneo are important to the imperial economy, and maintaining them vital to the imperial myth that keeps everyone else from rebelling, so Singapore at least remains a crucial allied fulcrum, meaning that a large nation just miles away across the straits can't be ignored, either.

There is also a new perspective on the threat represented by Kurosite/Chaoist Thought as Colonel Kezo's fortunes improve in Europe and the situation on much of the Shield, neighbouring Amberland, remains unpredictable.

Maybe some of the English expatriates on, uhm, Tin Hill, or whatever, in Singapore employ cheap Atlantean house staff with the hope that they'll be less likely to poison them than would be the traditional Drapoel option!

[Nova Gaul]

"Your tea, mam,' said the ice-cold Drapoel footman to the English expat with an unwavering stare.

"Yess..., um, very nice, thank you, Kim," replied Mrs. Cavendish. The saucer shook in her hand.

Yes, I would hire Atlantean help too.

Very interesting about the English dynamic on Borneo though, WoS. I think all said we hav incredible potential here for some great RP, with spades of shades of Vietnam. Now let's get going friends. *clap* Chop, chop.

[United Kongo]

So anyway as I was reading over the SFC's history and looking over where to edit aspects of it, mainly to do with post Independence, I was wandering as to whether AMW had it's own UN analogue set up after the Great War, and more importantly so whether it had it's own force of Peacekeepers as it were. I could see potential possibilities for Peacekeeping action in the Congo during it's early days or Independence and the civil war

[Acadzia]

Very much enjoying your ideas Acadzia, again, great to have you back.

Of course you know me…when you say Emesa is ‘liberal’ it is more in the sense of the “Liberal’ Party of 19th Century Britain, as is distinct from Labour to be sure, Free trade is the name of the game, with limited social reforms and welfare. In actuality, although the Emesans were ‘Anglicized’ by Walmington, they are several shades more conservative.

Yeah, I got that. I kind of pictured it a lot like the early Liberal Party of Canada... Classically liberal, maybe even Burkean? Right?

The upshot is Palmyra would not mind at all supporting a fairly corrupt oligarchy in Thierna Na Oge, provided it kept up basic democratic freedoms and, far more important, kept Atlantis open to trade. Indeed, I suspect that Emesan industry (which I increasingly see along the lines of the Korean Chaebol or the Japanese Zaibatsu) would be quite happy to see rural Atlantis remain fairly backwards, if only because this would give Emesa a fairly favorable trade balance. I even imagine that migrant Atlantean workers in Singapore factories would be overlooked by all except the Conservatives, who’d say ‘those immigrants are taking native jobs!” Despite they get paid 1/5 the rate.

Lovely. And, I hope, of course, that I can perhaps have Emesan and Walmingtonian factories on Atlantis. I need urban sprawl and smog!

Of course in the final analysis Emesa is Walmington’s side-kick as far as Southeast Asia goes. At least, until the English pulled out of Dra-pol and left Emesa a very bad neighbor indeed. So depending on how the English act, that is, whether or not WoS makes larger commitments to stay in the region and support it with trade and guns, will very much affect relations between Emesa and Atlantis. Suffice it to say currently Emesa would be delighted with the status quo in Atlantis, would maybe push for a few conspicuous reforms that (best case) have little substance, and would hawk-eyed for any ‘symptoms’ of the Kurosite disease.

Splendid. Yes, I've toyed with the idea of Kurosite influences, but I think I'll keep them at a minimum for now.

[Acadzia]

Most likely, then, the English East-of-India Company, and families such as the Chaspot-Waynes, will have stuck their noses into Atlantis. There likely is or was an Anglo-Atlantean Petroleum Company competing with Shell for petro-chemical resources in the region, others investing or having historically invested in mining tin and coal, and producing and trading in timber, rubber, pepper, palm oil, and so on and so forth, and all too happy to exploit the poor masses and weak legal infrastructure in Atlantis. From some perspectives, WoS may be seen as a relatively liberal state, but it's still a market-driven capitalist imperial power, after all.

This works splendidly for me. Walmington could have a degree of neo-colonial (or even literally colonial... I'm still filling in some historical gaps. I'm not sure when the House of Ancinor comes to power, or how) influence in Atlantis.

[Acadzia]

So anyway as I was reading over the SFC's history and looking over where to edit aspects of it, mainly to do with post Independence, I was wandering as to whether AMW had it's own UN analogue set up after the Great War, and more importantly so whether it had it's own force of Peacekeepers as it were. I could see potential possibilities for Peacekeeping action in the Congo during it's early days or Independence and the civil war

I don't think, as of now, there was ever such an organization. Of course, I'm sure some of the victorious powers in the war could have been involved in some sort of multi-lateral peacekeeping mission...

Or, maybe the situation in the SFC necessitates the emergence of a proto-UN in AMW?

[Nova Gaul]

I love that idea, Acadzia. I am sure that in response to sluggish growth in Emesa, and the changing industrial dynamic of moving from a manufacturing to a service economy (albeit bumpily) a great many Emesan companies – think Samsung style conglomerates, BTW Samsung over here makes everything from my laundry detergent to refrigerator (and runs hospitals too, odd seeing their logo there) – would be eager to exploit cheap Atlantean labor. And indeed you’re right about the Burkean ‘Liberals’, with a little David Ricardo-esque economy thrown in! Well, AMW, I have made the transition at last from Feudalism to the First Industrial Revolution…if I could only find David Copperfield and get him back to work in the blacking factory…

And United Kongo…given the richness of your state’s natural resources, I suspect a great many countries would have an interest in peacekeeping there . Emesa, for one, would be at least willing to send a light brigade or two in return for some mineral rights (having learned, after all, from the English)…and hopefully, might lead to some RP.

[Iansisle]

So, I know this might not be exactly the right place to do this, and it's certainly a little hypocritical considering my lack of activity recently, but here goes:

On the 18th of May, 2003, I was just home from my first year of college. I sat down to check my "electronic mail" on my parent's first-generation iMac and, in between YTMD videos and the launch icon for Master of Orion 3, there was a link to a little browser-based game that my friend Derek had sent me. What I'm building up to, of course, is this: Happy Tenth Birthday, Iansisle.

You and me have been through quite a bit together. When I try to think back on my life a decade ago I have a very hard time imagining it. Really, it's almost a blessing in disguise that the old servers (and then the new servers) are long gone, because I don't think I could look back on my writing then with anything other than horrified regret. Instead, I get to remember the general feeling of things in the rosiest of possible tints.

So here's to you, hamster-powered servers that were constantly overloaded by spamming generalites. Thank you for so many valuable lessons on why you back up your files and for my permanent mistrust of anything involving the word "cloud".

Here's to you, days back when NationStates was the lame n00b war forum and all the real roleplayers went to International Incidents. I'm still foggy on when it was exactly that flipped -- was that a Jolt era thing?

Here's to you, several-hundred-page-long coronation and corruption threads. With vampires, occasionally. I'll never see your like again, I think -- and probably for the best!

Here's to you, Iansislean Revolution. God save the Republic.

And, of course, here's to you, all my FRIENDS ON TEH INTERNETS. Larkinia and Beth Gellert, of course, whom I met before anyone else. Without the two of you, I would never have stuck around. I don't want to spam everyone's name and be one of those people, but you all know who you are.

Because, most importantly, here's to you, A Modern World. You rekindled my interest in NationStates when I thought that was impossible. You brought me back into the fold. You've provided the solid roleplaying atmosphere that I've always wanted. Everyone, take a drink on me.

...and not just because Chrin's moving again.