AMW Big Discussion Thread

[Nova Gaul]

Quite right Chrin—I had jumped ahead of myself and mistook our good buddy Autokrat Hippo to be a Caesar of some kind. That would leave Caesar, Basileus (I think that is the Greek name) and Elegabalus, the Emesan equivalent of Caesar. Obviously the Caesar of Rome would have the strongest claim, though J&H might have a thought there, but I do think maybe it is true—due to the fact that the emperor’s of Emesa were until about 1880-1920 objects of worship and seen as divine—that the Severan rulers of Emesa may have most closely kept the Severan family line intact. I.E., the current Elegabalus is the direct patrilineal descendant of Septimius Severus.

In any case I find the whole idea of an RP about this fascinating Chrin! I’ll leave the ball in your court of course to decide when, if, and how to start it. I can also see how it might be a bit concerning to Walmington, the bastion of finance and stability in AMW, to find that a Commonwealth of Romans was rising. Might also perturb the Celts, who, yes, I think might have a hard time joining such an organization.

Will read over your Rome history some more this evening. I do think it is safe and obvious to say though Rome, as a polity and idea and culture, was more influential and long-lasting in AMW than IRL.

[The Amyclae]

I don't see any claimants arising from North Africa but a peaceful, gradual reversal of centralization from 'Imperial' Province, to a simple Senate-like controlled province to client kingdom, independence de facto and finally de jure. A reverse, as it were, of the actual historical process that allows a resemblance of historical continuity but also avoids all those nasty lineage questions. Also, I can avoid explaining why a stable base of power along North Africa never attempted to involve itself seriously in pennisular affairs. 'Areopagite' separate identity that accepts its heritage without letting that acknowledgement obscure the whole. Rome is to Judaism as Lpqy Magna is to Christianity. Early on we're all practicing kosher but at some point we just stop.

Does that make any sense? I hope it does.

On a related note I was wondering whether I could add a small, bite-sized claim to North America again. Near Amerique. His proposed history looks interesting and I'd like to do an RP with him. I'm not sure what the current mood is on second-claims and would like some feedback.

Edit: I saw this

OOC: I can't remember what the name is for the AMW international court...

I don't know if it has already been addressed but it is the International Tribunal Association IIRC.

[The Crooked Beat]

Hello everyone!

We've got a new thread up dealing with the covert or otherwise secretive aspects of current affairs in our version of Eastern Europe, so feel free to jump in. Here's the link:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=227961

[Chrinthania]

Okay,

I have two things to discussion, or at least mention. The first is, I am updating the map. Any changes to the map that you know of need to be submitted here or offsite. At the moment, I can only safely add Chemaki and Kyr. There is an issue of a potential expansion of Amerique which is in flux, and an expansion of Emesa, which may not have been settled yet. So, at the present, only Chemaki and Kyr will be added to the official map located on the offsite. Once we have closure on the outstanding issues regarding Emesa and Amerique, I will tweak the map again.

Secondly, in an effort to allow the cartographers of AMW (myself and Kyle/Hibernordia) a simper, easier time at finding the updates, please make sure expansions, changes, reductions, or anything dealing with the geographic location of your claim are posted solely in the applications thread. In so doing, we allow future members the ability to read through one thread to see what may or may not already be claimed. It also allows myself and Kyle one location to read through to ensure we've updated the map correctly.

EDIT: Ohairder..... Chemaki... I figured out the list of what you claimed. Next time, you do that and then tell us, okay?

I now return you to your normally scheduled lives.

Thank you.

[Chemaki]

EDIT: Ohairder..... Chemaki... I figured out the list of what you claimed. Next time, you do that and then tell us, okay?

You should've asked me! I had the entire list of provinces, with their populations and areas listed. x3

Anywhoos, great to hear. My PC was corrupted so I lost a lot of stuff, so I'll be a while preparing my factbook for another update.

[Beddgelert]

While I'm slightly worried that Chrin may kill himself if I keep talking about it on IRC, I'm sure there's a range of interest levels in AMW when it comes to this subject on which I've lately been musing. Small arms and ammunition in AMW, and not just who uses what, but, sometimes, why, historically speaking.

I started thinking about all of this, again, after being asked about the Kalashnikov rifle in AMW.

I feel like things could make a lot more sense than they currently do, in this field, especially as we don't have a NATO or a Warsaw Pact, and I'm not sure why half the world -notably excluding America, it seems- is using things like the 5.56 and 7.62 NATO rounds, and nobody seems to be using 7.62x39mm Soviet.

So, here's a lot of thinking-aloud, for those who may be interested.

Having pinned the AK mechanism down as a Geletian invention, to stop it constantly being ripped out of the hands of the numerous parties inclined to use it (due to nobody being able to hold down a Russian claim until recently), I've more or less decided, hey, why not just pretend that Kalashnikov was a Tsag, and keep the name?

The AK, AK-47, AKM, RPK, and so on could be what armed the rebuilt Tsag military from some time after the Geletian withdrawal at the end of the Great War, perhaps as they sought a cheap and effective answer to the StG44 and Ostyngerix (Kiraly-Cristobal) carbines their partisans had likely encountered in Oakist hands. The 7.62x39mm ammunition, though, emerged IRL with the RPD, I think, so I've been bothering TCB with the suggestion that Kalashnikov fled occupied Tsalland to work in Gandvik, and maybe the RPD was developed experimentally there, then Kalashnikov took its cartridge as a basis around which to work.

The AK, and its 7.62x39mm round, then, are keenly adopted by Tsalland, but there's an element of, "Hey, wait a minute! Shouldn't we have a competition or something?"
Geletia submits the Ostyngerix rechambered for Nibelung 7.92x33mm, the Shield (being more backwa... conservative), I was thinking, finally brings the SKS to AMW, either in 7.62x39mm, 7.92x33mm, or we could be a bit more original and say Czechoslovakian 7.5 or 7.62 x 45mm, and maybe Byzantium develops the Greek Chropi rifle* probably in 7.62x39mm.

Wounds are too raw, and nobody really agrees on much, and everyone uses their own design. However, Geletia does buy a licence to modify and produce the SKS, developing the IRL Yugoslavian M59/66A1 for issue to rear-echelon troops, artillery crews and the like.

(*IRL it was, I think, a later -1970s- design, but was crude by the standards of that time, and looked more like a 1950s design, so I think it'd be fine.)

Later, as wartime grievances gradually dim, everyone kinda admits that the Tsag submission, the Kalashnikov, was the best choice. Chemaki's FIS has perhaps been an export customer for the AK from Tsalland, and is producing the (IRL Hungarian) AK-63. Geletia adopts the (IRL Romanian) Md.63/64 and in a limited role the (Hungarian) AMD-65 (AYA-65 in AMW), which is sold in small numbers to the Shield as a special-forces weapon. I like the idea of Geletia using a Shieldian (Czechoslovak) 7.5x45mm or 7.62x45mm, frankly.

I'm not sure whether Ian still ultimately wants to use the Danish Madsen LAR, but I thought perhaps the conservative military establishment in the Grand Empire believed that ordinary line infantry shouldn't be given full-automatic weapons, because it'll encourage profligacy with ammunition on the part of modestly-trained conscripts, and they can neither afford nor reliably transport such quantities of cartridges. So they stick with the semi-auto 10-round SKS for most recruits, and give the Geletian AYA-65 to 'elite' units and possibly to officers (so they can, uh, 'manage' a whole mutinous section at once). However, the LAR is, I think, AK-based, so they could bring that in as a replacement for the SKS, eventually, anyway.

Byz, meanwhile, is welcome to the Yugoslav AK-derivatives that I don't need, such as the Zastava M-70. In over-simplified terms, this means an AK that's slightly more accurate than the basic models, but slightly more maintenance-intensive. The Byzantines perhaps feel that their troops and their industry can cope with that if it means improved performance, while Tsalland and Chemaki at the time go for the more rough-and-ready approach. I thought they'd happily use the Tsag (IRL Soviet) 7.62x39mm cartridge.



While this is going on in South Eastern Europe and the Near East, Gandvik is marginally involved, but sceptical about co-operating with the Shield (old enemy) and Geletia (probably burned down a few churches with villagers locked inside during the war). The Rk.55 has more or less a Kalashnikov action, but Gandvik probably develops it based on knowledge of Kalashnikov's wartime work while in exile up there, not as part of a multi-national effort.

The unified Nibelunc might have tried to push the 7.92x33mm cartridge as an alternative to the 7.62x39mm, but been told to shove it, having backed the wrong horse in the war. Still, busy with their own unification, never mind everyone else's multi-national co-operations, they could keep using the 7.92x33mm StG 44 and 7.92x57mm Gewehr 43 or similar for a time. Then maybe G3 rifle in 7.92x57mm Mauser instead of 7.62x51mm NATO, because why not?

WoS has made everyone else in the world look about as effective as a Neanderthal using his granddad's femur for a club, adopting the comparatively space-age EM-2 rifles and .280" British intermediate cartridge in 1951.

Amerique has turned up a haughty Gallic nose to the whole concept of assault rifles and intermediate cartridges, adopting an M14 chambered for .30-06, because apparently it's better to disintegrate one enemy than put holes through several.

Valendia, I thought, taking a stubborn, "We didn't really lose the war!" attitude, refuses to get on-board with the multi-national effort, and would presumably continue to use either the French 7.5x54mm or Swiss 7.5x55mm as its full-power cartridge in MAS-49 and/or various Swiss battle/assault rifles, and later maybe 7.65x38 French, 7.5x43 French CRBA, or 7.62x38 Swiss (my personal inclination would be towards the Swiss round, but whatever) for more modern intermediate weapons.

Rome seems to have, to my mind, less obvious options. They've had a weird time of the war, and are in a weird position after it. Chrin has a good claim on a number of cartridges, most of which are shit and/or insane, because Italy/Spain. As I and TCB briefly discussed while talking about you all behind your backs, the IRL Italian Beretta BM-59 rifle, based on the American Garand rifle, could be a good post-war option for Chrin, perhaps as the Romans have been partly armed by American aid during the late stages of the war, and are familiar with the Garand. Cartridges they might use include the 7x57mm Mauser, a German/Nibelung design but one that is popularly known IRL as the 'Spanish Mauser', because it was that country that most embraced the cartridge. With a bit of modernisation, it seems that it might make a suitable fairly modern round for the BM-59, to serve during what would IRL be the Cold War era.



So then we get to the present day. I don't see much reason for 5.56x45mm NATO to be a widespread round in AMW. Possibly it arises as an American development for special forces using AR-15s or something, but why a nation like, say, Valendia, would adopt it, knowing that it means changing everything just to land a few decades behind what Walmington's already using, I don't know.

I think that full-bore rounds but shortened cases seem likely to have prevailed in AMW. WoS was radical, but even they ended up with a 7.3(x43)mm round. Tsalland and perhaps Byzantium 7.62x39mm. Valendia possibly 7.62x38mm or 7.65x38mm or 7.5x43mm. The Shield and Geletia maybe 7.5x38mm or 7.62x 45mm, though the 7x36mm Madsen-Otterup was possibly trailed with the LAR rifle Ian has been using, so maybe that's another option and the CSSR rounds could go elsewhere, such as to Nibelunc, who may otherwise have kept using 7.92x33mm for some time, and/or Rome.


Perhaps today the Shield's revolutionary government has developed the Russian 5.45x39mm round just to be different, because they're like that, for their (Ukrainian, AK-based) Vepr rifle, and maybe Amerique's using 5.56x45mm for some light alternatives to the .30-06 cannons, but otherwise, doesn't it make more sense this-ish way?

Well, rambling about things what're on my mind 'n' that.

[Chrinthania]

Heh, I won't kill myself, but, I have thought about running outside in the subfreezing temperatures at night while spraying myself with the garden hose while you've been on these tangents. Perhaps, though, you bring up quite interesting points. The problem is, as far as I am concerned, isn't the small arms and munitions of AMW, but the bigger picture that I'm assembling. I'm trying not to dodge the entire discussion, though. I just haven't gotten down to that whole what-kind-of-bullet-are-we-using question yet. My general shying away from the discussion stems from the ADHD nature AMW takes on discussion sometimes. I'll be working on tanks, someone talks machine guns. I'll be thinking history, someone talks about ships.

I suppose I will have to decide what I do eventually, but, at the moment, we have military weapons, and they shoot real bullets. Anything more specific is TBD.

(I should note that I've copied your discussion on here to a word document for later viewing when I do return to this discussion.)

[Chemaki]

My understanding about the FIS' small arms and why the country uses the calibers it does stems all the way from Eastern European (primarily Geletian) imports, which were mass-produced in the early half of the 20th century during the FIS' economic boom. The 7.62x52mmR was adopted as a universal cartridge for small arms as the Mosin Nagant (or whatever its AMW name is) was produced domestically in huge numbers. However, this was replaced by the 7.62x39mm during Yasir's rule as automatic firearms became commonplace (following the modification and domestic production of the imported Geletian Kaleshnikov in the form of the AK-63), and the 7.62x52mm was no longer suitable for a light infantry weapon. Due to huge surpluses in ammunition of that caliber, the PKM was imported adopted as a universal light machine gun, and munitions factories producing the 7.62x52mmR stayed in business. Meanwhile, the DShK was chambered for the 12.7x108mm, which was originally used in old anti-tank rifles...

Blah blah.

I'll write the rest in a bit.

[Beddgelert]

I'd say that nations primarily importing their arms should perhaps hold their horses before deciding to buy things from countries that may not end up making them

TCB tells me he may be doing away with the Mosin-Nagant in favour of something a bit more, uh, civilised in a 6.5mm Scandinavian calibre, so I wouldn't be surprised if the M-N and 7.62x54mmR end up Byzantine, with them having played a bit of a Russian role in AMW's Great War. Anyway, never mind for now, will get back to this later.

[Chemaki]

I'd say that nations primarily importing their arms should perhaps hold their horses before deciding to buy things from countries that may not end up making them

TCB tells me he may be doing away with the Mosin-Nagant in favour of something a bit more, uh, civilised in a 6.5mm Scandinavian calibre, so I wouldn't be surprised if the M-N and 7.62x54mmR end up Byzantine, with them having played a bit of a Russian role in AMW's Great War. Anyway, never mind for now, will get back to this later.

Well, the only reason I'm listing most of my arms as imported is that my claim doesn't really have any arms of its own. Historically, I'd rather have a few domestically produced rifles and machineguns during the early 20th century, and I'd love to have the Mosin-Nagant and the DShK as my own, but owing to the huge success and IRL prevalence of those weapons I'm sure other nations would rather lay claim to them.

[Walmington on Sea]

Lots of talking about small-arms via telegram. Not too much settled, yet, beyond that WoS is sticking with .455" (and .455" Auto) for side-arms, .280" British ((approx 7.2x43mm)) for our EM-2 series rifles and Taden machine-gun, and .280" Ross ((approx 7.3x66mm)) for the C14 Timberwolf sniper rifle and various reserve weapons. WoS has been using the .455" since 1891, the .280" Ross since 1907, and the .280" British since 1951, so has never had the slightest interest in plinking guns chambered for 9mm this, 5.56mm that, or 7.62 whatever ;)



On to a largely unrelated point, while I'm still playing for time as I try to figure out Walmington's position re. Ian and TCB's new thread, I'll bring up this notion I've been mulling:

At the moment, the Walmingtonians definitely act like theirs is the world's most powerful empire, but the trend seems to have been for fairly large and powerful claims. Other than the semi-active Shambles and Ajuran, and satellite or secondary nations like some of the Shieldian successor states, Chrin's new project ((if that's going ahead?)), and whatever's under Chivo's thumb at the moment, there really aren't any weak or little states, these days. Maybe the divided Congo will be another exception, but only time may tell.

I don't want to make WoS a superpower like we had in AMW V1.0, with a Canada-US-Mexico-covering USQ, and various Russia-plus empires, but I have spent a while wondering if I could/should boost the population of the 'English' territories, particularly Amberland, by claiming some small but densely populated territory elsewhere, such as Hong Kong, and cutting its population from 7 million to 5 million or such, but that seems a little cynical. I also tried adding some counties from the US states bordering Canada, to make the border look a little more organic, but that's a pain in the bum and only ended up adding two thirds of a million people.

So, I'm wondering if I should increase the colonial holdings. Turn Ceyloba into the whole island of Sri Lanka instead of just the Tamil Eelam inherited from BG, though with that part of the country still home to Tamil and Celtic minorities heavily supportive of independence, and perhaps take India's southern states, Tamil Nadu and Kerela, as the jewel in the crown, as it were.

This would mean a tremendous boost in population, with over 105 million in the Indian states and nearly 18 million in the remainder of Sri Lanka, but I imagine that only a few hundred thousand 'English' would be amongst that population, and economic growth would be marginal in the rural, restless colony.

Then Punducherry, most of which ((Yanam aside)) would be surrounded by the prospective colony. Absorb it, and move the population ((maybe 1.2 million people?)) to Amberland? Farm it out as American, Roman, Gandvian, Valendian, or other colonies? There are three separate enclaves within the potential claim.

I was also thinking that a greater Walmingtonian Empire might be even more distant from other PoN type and liberal democratic nations, a power bloc in its own right, regarding the Nibelung, French, Valendians, Romans, and Greeks et cetera as civilised, yes, but always as potential rivals as much as allies.

As I've said, I don't want WoS to be a true super-power in the modern sense, able to exert whatever influence it wishes on just about any country without significant opposition. I want a true global empire, able to fight any other single opponent, anywhere in the world, with a reasonable expectation of success or at least fighting them to a standstill, but one that's been struggling and straining to maintain its cohesion for some years now ((mostly since the exertions of the Great War and following prolonged Drapoel Wars, and in particular with the bloody 1980s conflicts in Drapol, Ceyloba, and the Spice Islands)).

I'm going to bed, now, but rather than just turn these thoughts over endlessly in my head, I wanted to put them in the public arena and see what if anything the rest of you think.

[Nova Gaul]

Still haven’t answered any of my request-for-information TGs WoS! Which are, I may say, more pressing than small arms for goodness sakes!

To wit:

Now, regardless of how any tweaks and nips to Dra-pol go WoS, I must say it is more or less critical to the history I’ve written (and more importantly, that I like) that the English exert a spectacular influence on Emesa between 1880 and 1920, roughly. The extent of this ‘cargo cult’ would be the catalyst for Emesan modernization, in everything from representative government, adopting a rational scientific paradigm, to going to far as to adopt Godfreyite Christianity lock, stock and barrel. Now I don’t know how Walmington would accomplish this sans a Drapoel colony. I’m speculating about a number of things right now: English missionaries might have been successful in the superlative, we might have a very positive outcome to the Commodore Perry/Japan scenario, we might even more fantastically have had a cargo cult scenario where the Emesans had been severed from the ‘other Romans’ for so long—and locked in perpetual life or death struggles with the Drapoel along the Devil’s neck for so long—that they actually viewed the English initially (with their crisp uniforms and powerful technology) as demigods. If Great Walmington was cynical enough, maybe they waited a year or two before dispelling these notions of quasi-divinity. Most likely, Emesa experienced a combination of all three. What’s important for me is not so much the means but the end, and the end being powerful enough to sublimate the Emesans’ paganism and superstition and slavery ways into stoic Anglophilia.

At this point, I’ve more or less made Emesa an unalterably Anglophile state, and truth be told I just don’t see any modern nation, which I very much wish Emesa to be, as practicing abject forms of mysticism, either pagan or monotheist. This is why I need both an English, and specifically a Godfreyite, influence.

Therefore I’d humbly ask that, whatever retcons you desire, you somehow figure out a way for the above quoted material to be effected re Emesa. I don’t care how you do it, just do it! Thank you.

Also, to that end, I think an English Hong Kong would be smashing, especially as I just added Hainan -Colchis- to my claim.

[Chrinthania]

I don't think of you as a superpower, per se, but as a nation with which to be reckoned if it really came down to a war. Perhaps I am in the minority on that position (as I can't speak for others), but I don't feel that Walmington is too powerful. It definitely has the bite to go along with its bark, as I've already stated. I believe that Walmington's main influence, at least as far as I see it, is economically. Because of your vast global empire, you exert a lot more influence on things such as stock markets and currency values, etc..... I don't really have any issue with the level of actual power you've accumulated since I came to AMW in 2009.

Addition expansions of the Walmingtonian Empire give me a slight pause. It's not population, mind you, but things like thinking about Hong Kong and the like. And, perhaps, this stems more from the idea that, at least at some point in time between today and when I first arrived, you weren't interested in actually playing the British Empire. Now, of course, this idea comes more from discussions with others over my time than with you directly and, as most assumptions are, could be completely wrong. Personally, I have no worries about your intentions in such matters, nor do I worry that you're getting 'too big' for AMW. If we're going to be frank here, I kind of miss the smaller Walmington-on-Sea which seemed to make do with hard work, determination, and a stiff upper lip. Understanding the reasoning behind your expansions, I, again, have no issue. I'm just feeling kind of nostalgic for that small nation that did immense things.

I have been feeling kind of nostalgic for AMW 2009 in recent days. There's a few people I'm missing right now, others that I'm certainly not upset they've left. But, in that pining for a by-gone time, I've come to the realization that superpowers, in a global sense, aren't probably a bad thing if they're played by people we trust. Certainly, you're one we trust. I don't have any issue with you becoming a superpower, but, if your desire is not to be one, then, by all means, have fun being important but not overpowering. I just think that, if you're bent on not becoming a superpower, that, perhaps, an expansion of any type isn't necessarily a good thing.

I was thinking a bit about the geopolitical situation globally. In reality, I should be worried about a lot of bigger nations (Yourself, Valendia, Nibelunc, Gandvik, Byzantium, etc...) as far as military strength, but, in practice, it seems the only true foe on the board for the Romans are the Geletians. Everyone else is either an ally, a friend, a trade partner, or a successor state to the Ancient Roman Empire. And, for the most part, I suppose the world is rather buddy-buddy in AMW with a few upstarts scattered here and there. There's not really any major world conflict to boost RP activity around these parts. There's not really one person we can look to and go, "I hope we don't piss him off." Certainly Depkazia, to a point, fills that void, and Beddgelert, Drapol, but, again, none of them, at the present, is in much of a position to really threaten global security. Though, if one of them does actually go on an offensive war, the rest of AMW will pounce on it like a cat on a mouse because we're all starved for conflict as it is (even if the real situation doesn't call for the entire world to go to war over it, as was seen in Arabia most recently).

I expanded Rome from the high-side of mid-range nation to the lower-side of big nation. While it gave me more people, I didn't really let it give a tremendous boost to the economy or geopolitical influence of the Roman Empire. Certainly, unlike Walmington, our priorities center around the Mediterranean (that traditional region that Rome really always concerned itself with) along with the greater Roman Catholic Church (of which seems to be rather hit or miss depending on the nation). The Romans aren't in a position to exert military force too far outside of the Mediterranean, even if we wanted to, simply due to the fact of how I'm setting it up. We're worried about Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East, and that's about as far out as I really expect any type of Roman influence to be felt.

But that hasn't kept it from really crossing my mind as of late. I think that you and I think alike in this avenue. If you feel the Romans are competition, then maybe we did compete at some time in the past. Maybe the Romans had some sort of global empire (a la the RL Spanish or Portuguese Empires) if future claimants wish to have that as part of their history. I had even gone as far as to map out some small splotches here and there that weren't important population wise to include in a "last vetiges of a Roman global empire" idea, but am not certain how small it would have to be in order for me to be happy with it. But, again, I'm open to some sort of historical international empire building spree to attempt to compete with Walmington that either failed due to Roman belief in the Mediterranean first, everything else second, or because they've gone their own way over the years (to which Valendia, Areopagitican, Aegyptus, Canaan, Eastern Roman Empire, and even Emesa fill in right now). Though, on second thought, those named nations were part of the ancient empire or an offshoot of the same, and there's been nothing else since the middle ages.

I suppose Rome also views you as its chief competitor in terms of empire-building. There's a lot to be said about the Roman mind still being at work in the modern age (even if the Romans, as they were in antiquity, are all gone). I've even made such mentions in recent IC posts (I believe in the Election Too Far thread). I'd like to think we may have even had a war between us over Gibraltar, with the Romans winning that war, but, perhaps, some of your new expansions were part of a global Roman Empire that we lost to you (meaning an overall Roman loss). I don't know, just throwing out ideas. Just something to keep that competitive streak going because, as far as AMW history works, you rose long after we declined. And, if the Romans are still kicking, particularly if we continue to call them "The Americas" (named for Amerigo Vespucci) the Romans had global empire-building intentions.

While Bali itself is just in its infancy as far as progress from idea to fully-functioning AMW nation, it's a small, 4-million-person island that could, if needed, be dropped if someone else came along with an idea in Indonesia and really wanted Bali. It's more of just an idea of playing something other than Westernized democratic nation (of sorts) in Europe/Americas. It is currently on a very long to-do list of AMW things that I have (beyond ensuring the offisite and IRC run smoothly).

[United Kongo]

@Chrin well in terms of a Roman global empire I had included in my history that the Romans controlled a number of Forts/Trade ports/colonies/whatever along the Congolese coast which they would use to trade guns to the Kongolese sultanate in return for ivory, Gold, diamonds all those other African goodies (on a side note I'm sure their is at least one pompous roman historian out their who claims that the Kongolese sultanate only grew so successful because of Roman guns), and Roman missionaries would also convert another pre colonial state, Loango, to Christianity (and provokes the Kongolese to wiping it out). I didn't really develop Roman influence much further from that, other then selling the enclaves to the Tsags in the mid 19th century. If you'd wanted to have had a more global empire at some point Central Africa could be a point of interest then

Also, in regards to the SFC's role in global politics, I always saw it as a 'sleeping giant' of such, in that it could have the potential to maybe be a larger player (or threat) but was hindered severely by technology and development issues, and lack of interest in participating int he global economy. Sought of a , we don't bother you, you don't get uppity about our genocide relocation. Although the way things are going with Emesa and Dra Poel , and Nilosahara and
Walmington, this could change

@Bedgellert Good stuff, I have a post that's been sitting around unposted for ages detailing Congolese weaponry, and I had the GeletianMd. 63 assault rifle basically listed as a huge influence in the Congo (militarily/Culturally), I was wondering seeing as the Congo bought up gigantic stockpiles of the weapon in the 60s, if perhaps it would be too far fetched to see a Congolese variety, especially given the SFC's rhetoric about not relying on Europe


oh yeah, as soon as the insurgency between Nilosahara and I heats up, their could be quite a few human rights abuses which might perk world interest

[Chrinthania]

Kongo, I had, momentarily, forgotten about that. I'm thinking, though, about playing off of Walmy here. Just not in the sense of "massive global empire" in the modern day. Maybe one of those yeah-we-did-it-and-it-wasn't-our-thing things. But, that's for the future.

[Walmington on Sea]

NG, Jean, Emesa, and the rest. I'm not actually sure what you're asking. Walmingtonian invasion of Dra-pol isn't going from history.

[Kyr Shorn]

Ok, so I have a very rough idea for what I want my recent history to look like, but I'll need some input.

During the rise of Colonialism on the African continent, and (I'm presuming at the moment due to a mutual Greek heritage) the sudden downturn of Byzantium's power, Aegyptus was forced to seek out new, strong allies to ensure it's security from the threats of Caanan and Areopagitican, and possible Colonization.

So King <insert name here> formed an unusual alliance with the Celts and the Kingdom became a Celtic Protectorate.

While not a colony in the strict sense, the Celts did gain an indornate amount of power in Aegyptus, along with some migration.

this would allow for Aegyptus to be on the side of the Oakists during the Great War, either invading Caanan, or Areopagitican, or the Walmington holdings in Nubia. (I plan to address the revanchist claims of some extremists in Aegyptus. To them any land that is touched by the waters of the Nile rightfully belongs to Aegyptus).

Either Aegyptus barely manages to break even, or loses the Sinai to Caanan or something like that.

The old Dynasty is toppled, the Protectorate ends, and Aegyptus either becomes a bit isolated, or plays it very quiet, until rise of the petrodollar allows the Kingdom to stride the world stage again.

Ok, what will work and what won't?

EDIT: In real recent news, Cass and I talked about Aegyptus allowing them to use airfields and possibly being part of the recent war with Areopagitican.

Then the use of nuclear weapons caused the previous King to balk at what was going on and things became a bit frosty between Alexandria and Munser.

Though the new King plans to mend some fences.

[Nova Gaul]

NG, Jean, Emesa, and the rest. I'm not actually sure what you're asking. Walmingtonian invasion of Dra-pol isn't going from history.

Oh, well, that's that then, thanks. Carry on.

[Quinntonia]

Hey, is there a fully updated version of the map that is available? Just want to get rolling on my official claim and do some map-math (that's a thing, look it up) in order to make things as accurate as I can/need to.

Okay,

I have two things to discussion, or at least mention. The first is, I am updating the map. Any changes to the map that you know of need to be submitted here or offsite. At the moment, I can only safely add Chemaki and Kyr. There is an issue of a potential expansion of Amerique which is in flux, and an expansion of Emesa, which may not have been settled yet. So, at the present, only Chemaki and Kyr will be added to the official map located on the offsite. Once we have closure on the outstanding issues regarding Emesa and Amerique, I will tweak the map again.

Secondly, in an effort to allow the cartographers of AMW (myself and Kyle/Hibernordia) a simper, easier time at finding the updates, please make sure expansions, changes, reductions, or anything dealing with the geographic location of your claim are posted solely in the applications thread. In so doing, we allow future members the ability to read through one thread to see what may or may not already be claimed. It also allows myself and Kyle one location to read through to ensure we've updated the map correctly.

EDIT: Ohairder..... Chemaki... I figured out the list of what you claimed. Next time, you do that and then tell us, okay?

I now return you to your normally scheduled lives.

Thank you.

[Chrinthania]

Hey, is there a fully updated version of the map that is available? Just want to get rolling on my official claim and do some map-math (that's a thing, look it up) in order to make things as accurate as I can/need to.

It is located on the offsite forum.

[Walmington on Sea]

Sorry that was so brief the other day, NG, I was in a hurry. I imagine that my talk of fleshing out Drapoel history and keeping the northern Sudrap Dynasty effectively independent of Walmington is what had you confused?

Basically, Drapoel history features periods of many petty kingdoms, city states and the like, and periods of more or less total subjugation around a central authority. Shortly before Europeans and Americans started to arrive in force in the region ((earlier Roman/Emesan migration notwithstanding)) there were four kingdoms, one bordering Emesa, one around the Myian ((Irrawaddy)) delta, one in Rakhine, and one, the Sudraps, in the north of Burma. The Sudraps conquered the others one by one around the time that Euro-American influence was reaching the region, but never had total control, or at least not total loyalty, in some of the other regions, enabling the Walmingtonians and Americans to get their boots in the door. Thus parts of Drapol end up in the Walmingtonian Empire, sometimes by conquest, sometimes by treaties with deposed/defeated rulers that the Sudraps considered illegitimate, while the Sudrap heartland, or at least parts of it ((likely the rugged Shan state and such)) remained independent. Perhaps other 'western' powers recognised Walmingtonian interest there, but the Sudraps didn't fall until presumably the middle of the C20th when the Communists used their failure to liberate/recapture other parts of Drapol to rally the masses.

I'm also thinking that perhaps Amerique used to rule a significant part of the coast, but lost it to Walmington during the Anglo-American wars, Songac being the last remnant of American Drapol.


Well, moving on. Quinn, I suppose I don't object to you having a claim in Great Britain, so long as it's recognised that the English race has already arisen in AMW, in RL East Prussia, and that a lot of British, and in particular English, culture and history is already tied up in WoS.

I'll come back to this tonight! More to say, yet.

[Chrinthania]

My rambling was just a simple explanation of my ideas on the whole matter. Though, to be honest, I really do miss the smaller, but powerful, WoS.

As for Quinn going to Albion, I don't think I have any issue with that, personally. Though, and maybe I shouldn't talk about it, but I will, I worry that the goal here is to nail the British military industry, build a powerful claim and attempt to cause more issues in the future. No offense to Quinn, but I'm not really looking forward to another reboot if that happens.

[Nova Gaul]

Yes, WoS, that was indeed my sticking point, but you cleared it up admirably. Many thanks!

[Walmington on Sea]

Hmm, the smaller but powerful, WoS, Chrin? There exists in the Walmingtonian Empire at present barely more than one English person to every 2.5 Romans. The entire Empire has a population a good ten million or more short of Rome, Nibelunc, or America, and half of them are colonial subjects in under-developed territories, unlike in the aforementioned powers. Valendians outnumber Englishmen close to 2 to 1. At present, Nibelunc's economy is worth £3.99 trillion, America's £3.68 trillion, Rome's £2.86 trillion, Valendia's £2.56 trillion, Gandvik's £2.44 trillion, Chemaki's proposed FIS's £2.31 trillion, and Walmington's £2.15 trillion. The Empire isn't even close to being in the top 5. Walmington is still small, but its power is in serious doubt.

What I'm wondering is whether I should be playing WoS as a great empire at all, or just, what, a cricketing Switzerland* with a fishing fleet?

I've been thinking, lately, of the Walmingtonian Empire as its own ally, and I think that I would like to do a little to highlight its separation from other liberal democracies. Make more of the King, make more of the national Church, make more of the House of Lords, and make more of the fact that the majority still believe in the old civilising mission. After all, both of the surviving aboriginal inhabitants of Canada now have fine careers in accounting, one understands the laws of cricket in full, and one's on the organising committee for her village fête this year! ((Wells up))

An example of what I'm thinking is that this Walmington would be more willing to go against Munstra on the Shield, and let national interests dictate policy ahead of any commitments to a wider international community. The Walmingtonians would continue to see the likes of Nibelunc, America, and Rome as civilised peers, and would not regard them as enemies per se, but there would be more focus on rivalry. We may all agree that the Gandvians or the Geletians are rum sorts, but may disagree on what, if anything, to do about that.

In WoS, Amberland ((East Prussia)) and the isles of Albion, being principally England ((Newfoundland)) and Red Island ((Prince Edward Island)), sort of stand-in for the union of Scotland and England, and have something like 3.2 million people instead of sixty-odd million. Royal Island ((Cape Breton Island)) is something of an Irish stand-in with 135,000 people and on-off unrest. Add the rest of Canada, New England, and Nobray ((remainder Canada, Maine, Alaska)) and the population of the Walmingtonian 'core' comes to less than 39 million people. Australia ((Patagonia)) and Fireland ((Tierra del Fuego)) stand in for Australia and New Zealand, and contribute 6.68 million white-majority mostly but not entirely loyal people living in a mostly first-world economy. There are also a third of a million whites in South West Africa, and the majority of them live in developed towns and cities or profitable farmsteads, while a sum total of a few tens of thousands live in other colonies. Something like 46 million Englishmen are doing a fine job of being mistaken for a great power in a world with 107 million Americans or 103 million Nibelung et cetera.

I'm actually quite happy with the Walmingtonians being outnumbered and feeling like history's underdog, but for so few to be so influential even today, I think that I need to increase the empire that's backing them. More Splendid Isolation and Empire First. At the moment, the English themselves make up half the imperial population.

I've got my British Isles, I've got my Bermuda in the Neptune Isles ((Galapagos)), my South Africa and Rhodesias in South West Africa, Egypt and Sudan in Upper Nubia, Middle Eastern territories in Mauretania, Hong Kong in Ide'tou, West African territories in St Thomas and Prince's Island ((Sao Tome and Principe aren't quite Nigeria and Ghana et cetera, but they'll suffice)), and I want to switch Tobago ((Puerto Rico)) down from a high-income economy to a more laid-back West Indian affair.

But Tamil Eelam just isn't the Raj. Thus I'm thinking of taking over the whole island. I don't think we've ever had anyone really want to take the rest of Sri Lanka. The tea economy would be safe, at least.

Whether there ought to be more than that I'm having trouble with. I really can't decide, even after sleeping on it for a couple of nights.

*Actually, the Swiss were, until their recent expulsion, ICC affiliates, and have been playing cricket for almost two centuries.

[Chrinthania]

Seems NS ate my homework. I had a nice reply, but, there was a glitch, so, I'm just going to wing it now.

WoS, I didn't mean to provoke any type of concern on your part. I was just thinking out loud. It wasn't meant to give you worry or make you feel smaller than anyone else.

It's not the size of your population but how you use it. There wasn't a lot of raiding from the German north of the Roman Empire due to the advancing Huns (who seemed to stop before they passed through Eastern Asia). Rome was able to amble on just having to deal with the Celts and the slow death of its gargantuan (for its time) empire. What's left is what's left. Yeah, there's 62 million in Italy, the remainder living on the Iberian Peninsula, Madeira, and Malta, but if we really want to get technical, the Romans themselves all live in Rome. Everyone else is a provincial. We've also had since 753 BCE to work on building and maintaining an empire in whatever form it takes in the present day.

I can tell you exactly how the Romans feel about the world in a simple statement: We're Romans, everyone else isn't. You think of yourself as more civilized, perhaps, than the Romans, and the Romans, conversely, feel the same about the English. You can remind us all you want about the size of your empire, we'll explain we did it before you 10th-generation great grandfather was in diapers. We'll also explain we don't have to wag our influence all over the world to feel superior while you explain to us that we're a bunch of limited-thinking-regionals that don't grasp the idea of globalization (or whatever you wish to say). You get the point. I'm all for what you're proposing here.

As far as expansion of the English empire, I have no plans to object to any ideas you have on expansion. If you feel you need more to feel more powerful, that's fine with me. The Romans will chalk it all up to English ideas on power versus Roman ideas on power.

If you really want to feel small, I just did up Nilosahara's population figured and he tops the population list at over 162 million people. Even the Romans are feeling smaller at this point.

EDIT

Speaking of Population, here is the ranked list according to population:

TOTAL WORLD POPULATION: 1,673,341,079
AVERAGE NATIONAL POPULATION: 55,778,036


1: Nilosahara: 162,280,193
2: Hibernordia: 137,353,407
3: Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire: 132,015,316
4: Amerique: 107,289,228
5: Western Roman Empire: 104,530,403
6: Nibelunc: 103,630,627
7: Gandvik: 101,207,089
8: Federated Islamic States: 98,962,525
9: Depkazia: 85,947,202
10: Valendia: 83,822,053
11: Aegyptus: 78,302,000
12: Walmington-on-Sea: 76,146,368
13: Congo: 71,712,867
-------------POPULATION AVERAGE (55,778,036)------------------------
14: Beddgelert: 55,704,499
15: People's Republic of Drapol: 52,799,804
16: Gull Flag Republic (Pre Kingsmount): 44,550,000
17: Arabia: 36,914,442
18: Areopagitican: 35,120,000
19: National Republic of Drapol: 18,257,088
20: Gallaga: 17,830,000 (Pre Kingsmount)
21: Ajuran: 16,052,786
22: Thortraia: 12,780,000 (Pre Kingsmount)
23: Tsagija: 8,674,242
24: The Javian Kingdom: 8,340,000 (Pre Kingsmount)
25: Editraequan: 5,690,000 (Pre Kingsmount)
26: Macedon: 7,912,971
27: Transpureto: 3,656,843
28: Pelopennese: 2,854,856
29: Ionia: 2,404,270
30: Wyclyfe: 600,000 (Pre Kingsmount)