AMW Big Discussion Thread

by **Iansisle** » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:07 am

Well, when you want cheap weapons there's a number of sources. My own country (the Shield), Geletia, Gandvik, and Drapol all leap to mind. Of these, Beddgelert and Gandvik tend towards the "top end" most closely mimicking former-Soviet capabilities, whereas Shieldian and Drapoel gear tend to be more improvised. Ideologically, most recently, Drapol would have been the most likely arms suppliers, as Hotan has shown a willingness to help bankroll Chaoist states. Of course, given the Geletian colonial history, there may well be a plethora of old Celtic weapons kicking around. And the Shield certainly never had a terrible amount of scruples about who they sold to.

So, uh, to get to your question directly there really isn't an AK family as such in AMW. Some of the weapons are produced (my own R10 is a Ukrainian bullpup based on the AK-74 -- of course, we can't even produce enough of those to supply our own forces yet!) but they all have unique names and unique histories. If you'd like, the Shieldian R63.3 might well fit your needs. I have a rather extended writeup of it here, although many of the references to other countries are now obsolete due to ex-nationing and so forth.

by **Beddgelert** » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:34 pm

I suppose that weapons left behind by the Geletians would be very old indeed, as we presumably left after the end of the Great War in 1945, right?

I doubt the Geletians bothered to deploy any tanks to Congo, but we may have left some tankettes thought more suited to operation on poor roads and forested terrain. That'd be essentially the R-1 Romanian licence-built AH-IV, Geletia's most numerous armoured vehicle during the war. IRL Ethiopia used them right up until the Ogaden War. Not much use in a full scale war, but they could be used as reconnaissance vehicles and for internal security in relatively low-threat areas.

This post in my factbook has a list of historic fire-arms used by Geletia. You can see our Great War era weapons, which may have been left behind, and also post-war weapons that... wouldn't have been, but could have been purchased, so long as you bear in mind that from 1945-82, Geletia was under the right-wing Christian Principality.

As for the Kalashnikov speficially, in the past obviously we just had it made by our Russian nations, but people kept coming along to play Russia, then changing it, then leaving, and coming back, and it was proving a pain in the backside, so I just took the Kalashnikov mechanism as a Geletian design, so that it'd be widely available. Obviously it won't be called Kalashnikov or AK, because... Slavs don't get on too well in Geletia.

Oh, of course, after 1989, a small part of Geletia, the breakaway Socialist Union of Y Berfeddwlad, has been under a Chaoist government. Colonel Kezo, the premier there, would most likely be very willing to supply Congolese Chaoists with Md.63/65 rifles, which are basically the Romanian version of the AKM, but firing 8x33mm ammunition (a fictional round only existing in AMW). This post has more recent Geletian arms, but Kezo doesn't have access to the very newest ones, like the Md.86, so just the Md.63/65, and AYA-65.

As Ian says, Dra-pol's probably a good source of arms, too. Cheap and Chaoist. Here is the CPRD's factbook on military stuff.

by **United Kongo** » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:30 pm

Ah thankyou, very helpful both posts. I think I'll use a mix as the current military would still have a lot of weapons that were bought off the Shieldans and Geletians between the 1950s to late 1970s back when the Communist weren't in power. No doubt hey'll be trying to phase these out with some Guns from Dra Pol however

Also Beddgelert, did you get my TG reply, I have a feeling it didn't go through.....

On another note, Beddgelert, Do you think their would have been any post colonial migration to Tsagija or Geletia from the Congo? I was thinking perhaps the Tsagijan government would have invited a number of Congolese migrant workers after giving the Congo Independence, perhaps to assist in rebuilding a pretty war ravaged state, maybe to fill in a labour gap for unskilled labour?

I'm not so sure about Geletia as it is a more populous and powerful state, but maybe the Triarchy let in a favorably viewed ethnicity s to migrate

small details anyway

by **The Crooked Beat** » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:03 am

In terms of small arms at least, and probably older artillery and armored vehicles as well, Congolese authorities would almost certainly be able to obtain Gandvian military equipment, details of which can be found here: http://s7.zetaboards.com/A_Modern_World ... 1002561/1/ . Although definitely a non-communist nation, Gandvik doesn't tend to be very picky regarding who it does business with internationally, and vast quantities of arms and ammunition, if not necessarily of an excessively modern design, may well have been offered-up in exchange for access to Congolese natural resources.

So that's definitely an option, should it hold any appeal, but Geletian and Drapoel weapons are just as good a choice, if not better, especially for a nation such as the SFC with left-leaning tendencies.

Also, a belated stamp of approval regarding BG's outline of the Great War. Looks excellent, as usual. The idea of a Central African Campaign is also very appealing. AMW's version of the China-Burma-India theater, perhaps, with a Walmingtonian version of General Slim leading a mixed force of colonial troops from across the Empire against Geletians and their own local levies. No doubt the Celts would have been at least as ferocious as the Japanese were in RL, though, one hopes, far less brutal and murderous. Or maybe the Dinassauts would make for a more appropriate RL comparison, given how important control of the Congo River would have been to operations there.

Avarga's role in the Great War would necessarily have been small, so determining its exact nature isn't important in an overall sense, but, being generally interested in these sorts of things, I have lately been thinking about whether or not it would make any sense for the Oakists to have tried an invasion of Avarga at some point. Ideally, this would have been rebuffed Finland-style, with defense preparations geared to face potential Gandvian invasion being used instead to defeat Oakist paratroopers and marines, but this might not have happened at all. Probably the waters around RL Denmark were mined very heavily, protected by an at least halfway modern Avargan military, and maybe the presence of such obstacles, coupled with what might have been insufficient assault shipping or spare troops, convinced the Oakist leadership that the potential benefit in disrupting Aventine communications did not justify the risks.

Depending on its level of involvement, it seems possible that Avarga might also have been able to contribute a ground division or two to the campaign in Northeastern Europe, sort of on par with the RL 2nd New Zealand Division in the British Eighth Army. Maybe an Avargan Freyberg to go along with it.

Not to mention, any potential Iberian campaign also looks to hold immense historical flavor, especially given what would have been an ample supply of Goumiers (or their English-language equivalent) on Walmington's part, ideally-placed to operate in rugged terrain. No doubt an Aeropagite corps would have been able to give an Aventine army fighting on that front a level of exoticism that Walmington's presumably more uniformly-organized forces may have lacked.

Napoleon certainly had enough trouble with Spain and Portugal, so I imagine Valendia's campaign in Chrinthania's westernmost provinces at least must have been fairly arduous, especially if the fight in Northern Europe or the Balkans siphoned-off any of Valendia's heavy forces. The thought of what a Valendian trooper from that period might have looked like is interesting enough. There's obvious French influences to draw from, including an entire world of uniforms and equipment that only ever saw limited service with Vichy forces in RL. Then again, those Swiss helmets really were something else...

Getting back to Northern Europe, I also like the idea of Walmingtonian troops holding-out on the Baltic spits. Oakist navies in the Baltic would hardly have had things entirely their own way, and Aventine coastal forces would probably have been able to keep isolated pockets of Amberlanders in supply almost indefinitely, possibly sparking some notable torpedo boat clashes as well.

Given how most of the Walmingtonian and Franco-American forces would have been forced to ship-in from overseas, I imagine the Atlantic theater must have been very important in our Great War as well. Granted, French submarines didn't exert a major strategic impact in RL (even if several individual boats met with considerable success), but if Valendia operated the same or similar designs in our scenario, the Valendian navy's submarine arm would still pose a major threat by itself. The RL French Navy, after all, had large quantities of very capable ocean-going classes in service as of 1940, and a focus on disrupting trans-Atlantic commerce might well have meant that such boats were built in still larger numbers by Valendia. And then there's the surface navy, with Valendia being capable, in theory at least, of fielding a quartet of formidable commerce raiders in the Richelieu, Jean Bart, Dunkerque, and Strasbourg-equivalents, plus an array of cruisers and some positively world-class destroyers. So clearing a path for Aventine convoys could have been quite difficult, depending on what Valendia's navy looked like at that point in time. Not that the Royal (Walmingtonian) Navy wouldn't have been up to the task, of course.

On the Northern European front, my line of thinking is that the Gandvians do at least a much more competent job of dealing with an Oakist offensive than the Soviets did for the Nazis, but still lose just about all of RL Lithuania and Belarus, while actually pushing the Shieldians back a distance in the Kursk-Voronezh neighborhood before being checked by a Geletian army in the vicinity of Kharkiv. From that point follows a few years at least of bloody battering with little territorial gain to show for Gandvian losses, a situation finally reversed in 1943 or so with the arrival of significant foreign troops and materiel, and maybe enlivened by a partially-successful offensive aimed at linking-up with Byzantium through Gallaga.

Anyway, I'm sure to have neglected to mention a lot of relevant details here, or gone over in too much detail things that have already been addressed, but this is a dangerous subject for me. Now, off to work on that response for Depkazia's new thread...

by **Iansisle** » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:17 am

Interesting to see that the Shield might have fielded the largest army of the Great War -- if perhaps out of necessity from appalling leadership, poor strategic decisions, and abysmal logistical situation. No doubt the large-on-paper force was what made them attractive to the Oakists to start with, if once the battles started they were found to be more of a liability than anything. I sort of imagine the typical Shieldian infantry unit in Gallaga as wandering around mountain passes waiting for an opportunity to shoot their officer with one of the few 1870s-vintage bolt action rifles (many of which even had ammunition!) and get interned by a passing Byzantine scouting force. "Quick, John, before the Gallagans show up -- how do you say 'I surrender' in Greek?"

[/way off topic and unhelpful]

by **Beddgelert** » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:51 am

Interesting stuff, TCB!

As it happens, of late I've been thinking of Geletia's military and industrial strength in the period as more comparable to RL Italy's at the time, with the assumption that in a world lacking the USA, USSR, 3rd Reich, and with a much reduced equivalent to the British Empire, such a power would be relatively greater, and the further assumption that soldiers of the Triarchy tended to have sentiments closer to those of their leadership than did many Italian conscripts and Il Duce. If more of the Italians had fought like some of those units in East Africa and Tunisia rather than the general picture elsewhere, and they were fighting from the start according to a unified strategy instead of whatever opportunity fell into Mussolini's lap...

Basically, my thinking is that Italy's population at the time and that of Geletia-proper were both in the mid 40 millions. Italy made colonies of the eastern Adriatic coast, so did Geletia, and Italy also kinda controlled part of Greece, along with Libya, much of the Horn of Africa, and so on, while Geletia controlled most of Greece, and the Congo. And both nations industrialised in the north (in Geletia's case, the Gwydd Works of Akink, aircraft factories of Siluria, and oil industry of Regnia) while the south of Italy was almost more like a third world state at the time, and Geletia's south was all about the old Highland Clans, which provided fierce warriors but in small numbers, and dug coal but did not build tanks.

Things differ in terms of some resource production, as Geletian oil and coal output far surpassed anything the Italians could achieve, but I think in terms of armies that could be raised and mechanised, the Triarchy's probably only a few percentage points ahead of the RL Italians in most respects. The main difference (even Geletian morale eventually collapses, it just takes longer) is probably that Geletia's industry, no larger or more advanced than Italy's, was preparing for the war for a good number of years, where as it seems to me that the Italians only launched a lot of new arms developments at the start of the conflict.

Just like the Italians had a few excellent weapons and a lot of terrible ones, Geletia had high quality armoured cars, world class aircraft machine-guns, an exceptional anti-tank gun, but, for example, never got an automatic rifle into service to match Amerique's Garand, Walmington's conversions, and the various similar weapons of Gandvik and the Nibelung states. And though the Ewrop tank was very good at the start of the war, it was still being built in 1944, and as mentioned in a recent post our most numerous armoured vehicle was a pitiful little modified Boiheaminc/Czechoslovak tankette, while our late-war medium/heavy tank, though a good contender for best tank of the war, never reached an operational strength greater than a few dozen hulls.

Also, we built battleships (IRL Austro-Hungarian Tegetthoff and Ersatz Monarch classes), but no aircraft carriers, and most of those battleships were distinctly dated, and lacking good under-water protection. And Geletia's air force lacked strategic bombers throughout the war, having (Romanian) fighter-bombers, (Bulgarian) dive-bombers, (Hungarian and Romanian) biplane reconnaissance/light bombers, and (Yugoslavian) light twin-engine bombers but nothing more until we over-ran Rome and looted tooling for (obsolescent) medium bombers... which we then used to bomb the Romans holed-up in Malta.

Geletia smashes the Roman fleet at Taranto and has success with an amphibious invasion that the Empire never expected to be feasible, takes Crete by air in the first such operation in history, occupies both Rome and Constantinople, advances several hundred kilometres across Anatolia, fights on three continents, supplies most of the Pact's fuel (especially once the Byzantines kick the Shieldians out of Baku, which I assume they'd make a priority) and wins victories on three fronts simultaneously, but ultimately can not make good losses once the war turns from one of manoeuvre to one of attrition. If Gandvik over-runs Shieldian iron mines, or the RAF just bombs them and their railways to bits, Geletia has absolutely no hope of sustaining steel production to match that of the Aventines.

But, ultimately, I think the Italian comparison holds for initial strength and to some degree in equipment production (though Geletia doesn't stop/switch in '43). The 22 divisions Benito threw at France, Geletia throws at Rome, and some of them prove no more effective than the hapless Italian Fascists did, getting thoroughly stuck against the best Roman defences in the Alps, though the amphibious component face little opposition and Rome is forced to capitulate with relatively little fighting on the Italian peninsula. The 8 divisions that started Italy's Greek campaign probably are equivalent to those spear-heading the crossing into Asia, but the other 20 divisions -at one point sent home by the Italians- follow-up quickly, and we've presumably a good two thirds of a million men eventually in Anatolia. Finally, the Italian Expeditionary Corps in Russia is answered by the Geletian Northern Front sent to Gandvik, for a couple of hundred thousand more combatants (er, not ignoring a tiny contingent of officers leading Congolese troops around the Great Lakes of Central Africa).

In all, Geletia perhaps contributes a solid 4 million men, armoured vehicles in the thousands (but not tens of thousands) and similar for aircraft, but by the second half of the war it's fighting with equipment suited to the first half, the percentage of mechanised to straight-leg forces is declining while for the Aventines it's increasing, and the quality of manufactures is declining as we have to make do with small quantities of low-grade iron ore from the Saimonas, and all of a sudden our shells are failing to pierce Aventine armour while our own armour plate is shattering against long-range hits from even the weakest enemy weapons.

Also, in a little note I find somewhat interesting, I think that a lot of Geletian fighter aircraft probably ended up with Valendian V-12 engines built under licence, and I would assume that development of the Hispano-Suiza 12 series was continued by Valendia and Geletia during the war. I'll be saying now that the Vindos V-4 (IRL Yugoslav Ikarus S-49) entered service late in the war, powered by a local evolution of the Valendian engine, but only appears in numbers akin to those of the Reggiane Re.2005 Sagittario, ie. a few dozen. Oh, and it probably has a Gebauer engine-driven twin-barrel machine-gun in 13.2mm TuF, instead of a couple of M2 fifties, because Geletia is just that awesome

Edit because why on earth did I call the S-49 an S-9?

by **The Crooked Beat** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:13 pm

Hmm, using Italy as an example does seem very reasonable, and with Geletia forced to shoulder a much larger burden of the war than Italy had to deal with in RL, it also makes sense for Geletia to have used its forces of similar strength in a much more effective fashion. No doubt our Great War, though fought with WWII technology, was in structural terms much closer to Europe's wars of the pre-Napoleonic period, pitting large numbers of great and middle powers against one another but without any one side necessarily holding a preponderance of means.

As for Geletia's Great War-era armed forces, though they apparently don't rank with Cassanos or Amerique in terms of technical advancement and mechanization, surely they matched or exceeded their immediate opponents in that respect, at least during the war's early part. Geletia would have had almost double Byzantium's population at that point in history, and it's easy to imagine Valendia's "panzers" having things mostly their own way against Chrinthanium if that army bore any close resemblance to the RL Regio Esercito. Gandvik, for its own part, wouldn't have started to pull ahead of Geletia until 1943 at the earliest. With that in mind, I wonder if my initial estimate for the Byzantine army might actually be a lot higher than it ought to...

I'm also interested in fleshing-out Valendia's role during the war a little bit more fully, since on the Oakist side it is probably, or at least has the potential to be, the most important military player, if Valendia looks anything like RL France did in 1939-40. After conquering Chrinthania and Swabia, the Valendians would presumably be able to commit a very large proportion of their armed forces to other theaters while still having more than enough left over for anti-partisan operations and home defense. From my own perspective, anyway, it looks as though there could even be a whole Valendian Army Group on the northeast front between Chrinthania's capitulation and the landing of a mainly Franco-American Army Group in Iberia. That would certainly go a long way toward offsetting the ineffectiveness of Shieldian troops in offensive operations, especially since Gandvian troops would have had almost nothing, short of field artillery firing over open sights, or dive-bombers for that matter, that could destroy something like a Char B1 during the war's early years.

EP of course has the final say as to what his troops did or didn't do, but my thinking is that the Valendians might have sent two expeditionary field armies to bolster the Oakist effort in NE Europe and another to help Geletia in the Western Mediterranean, while maintaining the equivalent of another army group to defend Valendia itself, suppress partisan activity in occupied Chrinthania, and protect against the possibility of an Aventine invasion attempt.

by **Chrinthanium** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:12 pm

I am both amazed and humbled by your military prowess, TCB and Beddgelert.

As far as what happens South of the Ebro, Valendia should be able to push southward and southwestward with relative ease at the beginning of the war. I figure that Valendia pushed as far south as Seville at some point, but never managed to get too far past there. Most likely because the remaining territory was crammed against the Atlantic Ocean and the Strait of Gibraltar and they had previously little land left to retreat to. Of course, the Roman Underground, aka the Resistance, probably begins as a few revolts here and there in a rather disorganized fashion, but, as the war continues and the partisans become emboldened by occasional success, they become a unified front of the war for the Romans in both Iberia and Italy. Coordinated attacks with assistance from the Roman military, Aventine allies, and sheer good luck help to cause some chaos around occupied territories within the empire. It wasn't so much that the Oakist military power could stop the Resistance from gaining ground, but that the Resistance was good at keeping them guessing and trying to figure out their next move. One day you attack a supply train in Tuscany, the next a ship in Sicily, then follow that up with some electric grid attack in Sardinia. The Oakists in the Roman Empire are more busy trying to cut down the Resistance than anything else after a while. Millions of Romans aren't going to just stand around and say, "Ciao" all day long while Celts and Valendians keep shooting at them and telling them what to do.

I wonder if Roman Underground fighting almost becomes akin to RL Iraqi Sectarian-type tactics at some point?

What Roma couldn't do militarily, it did with strength of national character. Fortunately for the empire, the Aventines finally land in Iberia and the Geletians begin to worry more about the war turning on them and protecting their own mainland allowing the Emperor and Imperial forces to retake the Italian Peninsula.

Europe-Prussia has been rather quiet on this subject. In fact, he's been rather quiet period. I hope he is doing well.

And some rather non-important information. I have been thinking that, since Chrinthania/Chrinthanium as nation names in AMW are no longer existing, that, perhaps, I will let the Chrinthania puppet finally die and just move the WRE and Paradise Islands here.

by **Nova Gaul** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:29 pm

Hello all.

As I get settled back into Emesa I wonder about its past. Originally, before its Godfreyite and Walmie retcon from paganism to Protestantism, I had written about an Emesan ‘golden age’ as Septimius Severus and his lot, freshly arrived in Asia, set out on voyages of exploration around the Far East.

So I was wondering if I might add a few tokens, use tokens, of this exploration for my claim. Namely, the islands of Hainan and Okinawa—and perhaps, if I am not seen as ‘power grabbing’, the Ryukyu Islands at large. Both would give me an opportunity to RP with any future China/Japan players, and would serve well as a artifact of what was one perhaps a brief Roman hegemony in the South China Sea. Perhaps it turns out, if and when we get more players in Asia, the Romans briefly controlled larger lands which were eventually taken back by the natives or themselves conquered from without. I don’t know.

As a ‘BTW’, I was pondering adding Taiwan instead of Hainan, but I thought that would be claiming a bit too much. Still, if the community was amenable, I’d love to have Taiwan (Formosa would be a perfect Emesan name) and the Ryukyu Islands, but I bow to the community.

They would add about 9 million people to my claim but not a lot of natural resources. Additionally, I think that during the Parliament of Nations campaign in Dra-pol, they would have gone from being backwater provinces to relatively important naval outposts, perhaps serving as English supply depots for Great Walmington’s campaign in Dra-pol. Hence, the Walmingtonians were kind enough to foot the bill for both islands’ initial modernization.

Thoughts?

by **The Amyclae** » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:58 am

Nova Gaul wrote:Hello all.

As I get settled back into Emesa I wonder about its past. Originally, before its Godfreyite and Walmie retcon from paganism to Protestantism, I had written about an Emesan ‘golden age’ as Septimius Severus and his lot, freshly arrived in Asia, set out on voyages of exploration around the Far East.

Ah, I must've overlooked this before... But are we/how we are dividing Lpqy Magna's only born-and-raised Roman Emperor Septimius Severus?

by **Chrinthania** » Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:34 am

Well, I have him dying in Rome in 211AD. So, he became Roman emperor and lived his life. From what I read, Emesa didn't take him to the far east, but his descendants.

Now, as far as the proposed expansion.....

Aren't Taiwan and the Ryukyu Islands a tad distant from Emesa to add to the claim? I only bring this up because, as one of the guys who deal with the big map of AMW claim, there's plenty of islands near you to add if you wanted to expand. I know that, possibly, in the grand scheme of things, it's probably not a big deal for me, just a curiosity as to why, in particular, those islands. And, well, couldn't a nation in Southeastern Asia RP with a nation in China or Japan without expanding?

by **Nova Gaul** » Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:32 pm

Righty-o on the emperors gentlemen, I am getting all confused here. I had no idea Septimius and his brood would be more popular in AMW than IRL. Maybe he gave the best advice in history though: “Be harmonious, pay the soldiers, and don’t worry about much else.”

So, that said, Max and Chrin are right, as I’ve learned from dredging through my history of Emesa:
“Rather than fight another series of civil wars in the East, however, and in fact sharing some degree of kinship with the Severan Dynasty, Emperor Aurelian offered the Palmyrene ‘emperor’ Severus Alexander III—grandson of the Roman Emperor Severus Alexander (himself a descendant of good old Septimius)—the option of removing himself and his partisans further east, where they could forge their own kingdom, which would ostensibly remain a client kingdom of Rome.”

So yes, the men who founded Emesa were from a wilting branch of the Severan family tree.

That’s a good point Chrin. Mainly, my reasons for wanting Hainan and the Ryukyu Islands were to set up the premise that circa 1000, Emesa was at the zenith of its ancient power and perhaps operated a fairly decent hegemony in Asia. Over time, as we get more players, or circumstances change, etc., this empire gradually fell apart. The reason I also wanted Hainan (or maybe Taiwan) and not, say, a part of Indonesia like a chunk of Sumatra, is the higher population there. I wanted to show the Emesans had been places without necessarily having to support a larger foreign population. Basically, I wanted interesting outposts of empire.

I guess I could role the Ryukyus and Hainan into one and take Taiwan, it’s exotic enough for sure. But anyway, those were the reasons I wanted to add Hainan and the Ryukyus. Thoughts?

by **Chrinthania** » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:39 pm

I can't speak for Max, but it seems that he's kind of got a historical sense of pride for having a Roman Emperor born in his nation. As for me, I was just going by your history as to what was going on with the Big Old List of Roman Emperors. So, yeah, that's cleared up.

As far as the expansion itself, meh, I don't really have any objections towards it.

by **Nova Gaul** » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:00 pm

Excellent. Interesting too. It seems Lpqy Magna, Western Rome, Constantinople, and Emesa are all really rather related. Example. Septimius Severus founds the Severan Dynasty (Lpqy Magna) which becomes an imperial dynasty first (Western Rome and Eastern Rome) and later a regional dynasty (Emesa) before the remnants of it flee east.

It almost seems we should have kind of a Roman Commonwealth in AMW. Because even though the successor states to what was a Rome probably--now that I think of it--much stronger than RL turned out very differently, it also turns out they have remarkable continuity.

Could be a fun RP.

Thanks. I'll await further objections and such, but will begin planning to incorporate 1) Hainan and 2) the Ryukyu Islands into Emesa's claim.

by **Chrinthania** » Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:08 pm

I've already raised the idea of a Roman Commonwealth to Max, whose representative is supposed to speak to Lypq Magna about it. I'm certain Hadrian II will be more than willing to discuss that when he comes on down to Emesa.

by **The Amyclae** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:09 pm

Chrinthania wrote:I've already raised the idea of a Roman Commonwealth to Max, whose representative is supposed to speak to Lypq Magna about it. I'm certain Hadrian II will be more than willing to discuss that when he comes on down to Emesa.

Oh, yeah... That thread. *hides*

I swear I'll get a response to it sometime this year. You can count on that.

by **Dra-pol** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:24 pm

Well, I've been looking things up, and it seems to me that Emesa as it stands is slightly smaller, population wise, than previously assumed. Singapore, using the CIA Factbook, has a population of 5,353,494; the Riau Islands Province of Indonesia (which was itself added to the claim to highlight that Emesa had dabbled in seafaring empire building, BTW) 1,685,698 according to the 2010 census; peninsula Malaysia either 21,940,500 or 22,434,200 depending whose stats I follow (the latter, higher total appears to be a Department of Statistics estimate for 2010), and the Emesan portion of Thailand about 8,326,063, though that's arrived at only by reading the latest estimates Wikipedia articles have on offer. So the total comes out at 37,305,755 or 37,799,455, using the best stats easily available, and we can assume that the real population is probably a couple of hundred thousand higher now, as some figures come from 2010. So, most likely about 38 million Emesans.

While I'm correcting things, though, while possibly having given himself a few too many people, NG seems to have done himself out of quite a bit of economic activity. If the per capita GDP indicated in his edited application has been stuck to (£9,784 though personally I'd round off to 9,800, because being that precise isn't always practical) the total GDP would be more like >£369 billion rather than ~£223 billion.

While we're here, because I think NG and I once hammered it out between us and may never have quite updated everyone else, I think we resolved to place the Emesan-Drapoel frontier a little south of where it generally appears on the maps, because it settled on Emesa's defensive line, which was built across one of the narrowest parts of the peninsula in the relevant region, in order that it be as short as possible, thus concentrating defences and funnelling attackers down a narrow and predictable path. If I'm reading the little map I sketched up correctly, Chumphon accordingly falls within the NRD, and only the two southerly districts -Kapoe and Suk Samran- or Ranong lie within Emesa. This means that about 0.64 million people who might have been Emesan ended up in the NRD.

Anyway, this all being said, I don't mind Emesa expanding again, so long as it's not too radical, and so long as NG's going to stick with it. I do wonder if the Bangka-Belitung Islands (1.22 million people) just south of Emesa's current holdings, and/or the Andaman and Nicobar Islands (0.38 million) out in the west might not have been viable alternatives to islands as much as 4,000km away. It even seems almost likely that the first Romans heading east might well have been shipwrecked in the often hazardous Andaman and Nicobars, and established themselves there before assailing Malaya. I'm not entirely convinced about the far eastern holdings, but my feelings in this matter are not strong.

The prospect of a Roman Commonwealth, meanwhile, is bound to be a controversial topic in Great Walmington!

by **Nova Gaul** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:12 pm

Well, first of all, very first, let me say I did not intend nor do I plan now to ever abandon my Emesa claim. My nation CTE’D was simply an unfortunate event which occurred because of an intense flurry of RL activity. I am not going to abandon Emesa, if for no other reason that I’d never live down the many jibes WoS/Dra-pol would throw at me. I’m here to stay, fortunately or unfortunately.

Thank you for clarifying the topics of Emesa’s population and economy Dra-pol. In the next few days I will be adjusting it to make it accurate. And yes, the border (and I have it memorized) runs from Ranong to the city of Lang Suan. Or wherever the isthmus is narrowest, that is where the Marcian Line or ‘DMZ’ would be. And while we are on the topic of the DMZ/Marcian Line, I think it’s worth noting that for various historical reasons there would be no passes or roads through it to either the NRD of CPRD, as once fortification started in about 400 I think it continues ever to today.

In regards to expansion of territory I trust what I planned or proposed, Dra-pol, was neither drastic nor grasping nor simply a power grab but would fit in with the general picture of Emesa. I agree on some further thought that colonizing the Ryukyus might be just a bit far away, and would gladly agree to your proposal for instead incorporating Andaman and Nicobar—though it doesn’t feel right, considering the stamp a former AMW player left on the place. But yes, that sounds good. I suppose they could easily enough be called the Zephyrus Islands, with Zephyr (Andaman) and Chloris (Nicobar).

I would really like to reiterate my claim for Hainan, though, as I think it would make perfect sense for the strategic island—probably originally a backwater interesting only because of some small amounts of mineral deposits—would be a lynchpin linking Emesa to her American and Walmingtonian allies. Besides, I even came up with an Emesan name for Hainan, Colchis—named for early discoveries of gold there, with its capital of Bipoli (Haikou).

And while we’re doing this, before I write make any changes and the discussion is ongoing, Amerique and I discussed that somehow Emesa could have served as a stand-in for Japan in a -very brief- naval conflict in the Pacific. I was toying around with this idea with Amerique, that maybe after Emesa industrializes under the English between 1910-1920 they make a grab for some far Pacific Islands. I don’t think it was a really great effort, in all honesty, but perhaps culminated in an Emesan drive to capture Hawaii? In any case it was a brief naval war with a few shots fire in the 1930s, after which I am sure Emesa and Amerique became the best of friends .

So those are some thoughts.

And also I very much am interested in the idea of a Roman Commonwealth: the Collegium Romanum!

EDIT: I just want to say Emesan interest in a sort of 'island empire' would have been restricted to a very brief period only probably in the 30s, when the English were thoroughly running Dra-pol. Otherwise, outside of that time frame, Emesan foreign policy would - quite understandly - be totally dominated by the lands immediately north of it. But I do imagine that during this time the Emesans managed to make contact with Chrin's Pacific claim. Basically I just want to provide Amerique with a very sub-Japanese stand in competition for his own Pacific desires.

by **Amerique** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:55 am

After about two months of conceptualizing my ideas and changes for Amérique, and with assistance refining those ideas by an ever-helpful and friendly Walmington, I have essentially boiled down some historical changes to Amérique, some minor, some major, mostly dealing with Walmington as a colonial authority, with the rest as improvements and comments upon the national character of Amérique.

Official Name: Grand Republic of America (French: la Grande République d'Amérique)
Claim: Minus Region of Oued Ed-Dahab-Lagouira, Suriname Plus Hawaii, U.S. Virgin Islands

There was always something which didn't quite sit ready or make sense about my early history which I wish to clear up with some slight changes. Namely, while it makes sense for Protestants, Franco-Norman and Breton nationalists along with other political dissidents to escape the Holy Empire of Valendia, why such separatists and members of religions hostile to the Habsburg rule in Valendia would have been given colonial charters by the Valendian Imperial government still eludes me. It is while trying to think through this that I came up with a more elegant solution, namely that early Amerique, in particular the Massachusetts & New Normandy colonies, began their New World safe haven under the protection of the Walmingtonians, gladly donning the maroon and accepting a protectorate status if it meant a chance to fight their former oppressors in Valendia, preventing them from asserting a foothold on the East Coast of North America (which I presume was New York and Outremer before being conquered by the Walmingtonians and American Provincials).

It occurs to me that much of the Normanisms and French loanwords that exist in the English language have so far gone unexplained in A Modern World and, in this new history, the Franco-Americans (specifically, the Normans who gave New Normandy her name) and Walmingtonians each influenced each other's cultures early on while the former was under the protection of the latter. Namely, the Anglo-Saxons who arrived in Great Walmington could gradually modify their more Germanic language with some influence from the Geletian mercenaries and the French refugees further south towards the current mongrelized language between Germanic, Celtic and Romance influences which is modern English without any William the Conqueror-type figures as in real-world English history. How Middle English spread to Amberland and the Shield and eventually mutated into the modern King's English would be at Walmington's discretion, and after discussing the matter with Walmington, he seemed quite elated to finally have a clear origin point for the birth of Middle English leading into Modern English which incorporates both of the groups that colonized the New World in AMW.

I also plan to expand on the role of the New World Hiberno-Gaels, which I will call the Fenians for short, in the national character of early Amérique. It is known that after their departure from Ireland predating the arrival of the Norse there, they settled briefly in the Azores before St. Brendan the Mariner returned with word of a glorious new Isle far off in the ocean with wondrous fish stocks, an isle which turns out to be the North American continent and their settlement of Fenia proper in Connecticut. They essentially form a kind of Irish Vinland and are stranded from contact with Europe. They follow up with a partial exploration of the rest of RL New England which is interrupted by the arrival of the French and Walmingtonians. As a result, the Normans, Bretons, Gauls and French peoples who formed the original Américain colonials regularly lived with and inter-mingled with the Fenian Gaels, combining into the first unique "American" colonial cultural character outside of Walmington. Unlike New Normandy, however, Fenia had much less autonomy as it was not in the Walmingtonian Empire as a protectorate but as an occupied colony. I know Walmington planned to have some Celtic Catholic Newry Islands out of St. Pierre and Miquelon, so perhaps they were a set of islands settled by the Fenians in a similar manner in pre-Godfreyite America.

At any rate, Amérique would have always hypocritically viewed the Isle of Albion as not really part of the American continent anyway due to its inhabitants being so attached to the traditions and old customs of Europe, while the Américains view themselves as a completely new, intrepid, progressive frontier culture, arrogantly seeing themselves as the world center of modernity. This of course means that they conveniently forget that there already was an "American" culture, the Natives, long before any of these colonist groups arrived with the exception of when culture and tactics are borrowed from Native American culture to supplement some American need or to replace some European custom in order to seem more "American" and unique without being too exotic. That being said, this is far from the view of the founder and first President Gilbert Lafayette, who had intended to leave the large territory east of the Ohio Valley to the Natives and greatly admired Amerindian culture. Some vestiges will exist in monuments to Chief Tammany (canonized in the American Episcopal Church as a saint) and to other tribal leaders who helped out the Franco-Hibernian colonists, and other token symbols of unity and brotherhood between Native Americans and Franco-Americans. Whether this differs from their treatment under the Walmingtonians in Canada or not is up to Walmington, but judging by the full Anglicization of Canada, I'm assuming they were, as historical, stuck between a rock and a hard place with one side being only marginally better than the other.

Another somewhat large internal change will revolve around making a unique history for Pennsylvania, which I hadn't quite yet decided what to do with historically other than the history covered during and after the American War of Independence in RL and how it would translate to AMW America. The current idea revolves around a revisit of the Kingdom of New France concept. Before the Valendian colonies of Outremer and New York (originally Neue-Westfalen under the Valendians) are lost to the Walmingtonian forces, a man arises in Philadelphia in what would become the State of Appalachia (which I'll rename to Capetia to fit the internal history) claiming to be a direct blood descendant of the line of Charlemagne and the current Pretender to the French throne as the House of Capet. While not recognized by either Valendia or Walmington, Valendia is too preoccupied with fighting the Walmingtonians over Neue-Westfalen and Outremer to commit to fully crushing a colonial rebellion and Walmington is similarly preoccupied and also somewhat amused by the new Pretender-King of the French. The Kingdom is only given some weight once a colony of Fenian exiles, Tír na Mairia, which had sought to settle in Maryland and West Virginia to escape Walmingtonian rule and survived mostly as mercenaries, joined the quest of the King Louis I of New France and the combined tribes of Mary's Land pledged fealty to King Louis I. The New French are known as surviving largely from trade and interactions with the Western Romans, Hibernordia, the Hanseatic League and other European commercial powers, and King Louis I funded the construction of a large palace previously unseen in the Americas outside of Jeanne-d'Arc (IRL Harrisburg, Pennsylvania). The Kingdom of New France was largely known for fantastical stories of high adventure either from their intrepid coureurs-des-bois who searched the Ohio Valley to set up fur trade stations and interact with the Natives or from the hard-to-believe tales of swash-buckling Cavaliers who formed the core of the Royal Guard and nobility in New France. Nevertheless, once the Walmingtonian Empire established sufficient control over the colonies of New York and Outremer, the New French tended to be a nuisance existing just outside of English control. In 1655, the Walmingtonians declared war on the Kingdom of New France, de-recognizing their King and viewing them as a rebel organization exerting control illegally over land rightfully acquired from the Valendians in the war. The generally placid and amicable relations the French-speaking colonials in the Confederation of New Normandy enjoyed with their English protectors and governors-general were forever tarnished once the English guns were turned on fellow Frenchman, Bretons and Normans who had similarly fled to the New World to escape Germanic Valendian occupation. In addition, the relative freedom granted by the New French to the Marylander Fenians struck a cord with the Gaels of Fenia themselves, leading to some rebellions which were put down by the Walmingtonian Army and New York Provincials, much to the disapproval of the Provincials themselves.

Going back to the origins of Amerique's New Normandy region: the initial New Normans were a privately-funded expedition of (non-Belkan/non-German) religious and political dissidents from Valendia, mostly formed in secret and making the crossing using trade vessels. They arrive and settle, interacting amicably with their occupied Gaelic and their more powerful English neighbors until Valendia comes a-knockin' in the New World, trying to reconquer the dangerous nationalists and dissidents, re-subjugating them and incorporating New Normandy into the fold. Both the New Norman settlements and the Walmingtonians have a beef with the Holy Empire's arrival in the New World, so the New Normans swear fealty to the Walmingtonian Crown in return for protection and some degree of autonomy. The Revolution occurs in the early 18th century partially due to the autonomy being threatened in order to pay for Walmington's expanding global empire and the cost of getting involved in European affairs (though it's billed largely as covering the expenses of the defeat of the Valendians and the New French).

The growth of Walmington itself which approached and surrounded the Confederation of New Normandy, also led to the Parliament in Walmington-on-Sea considering the eventual revocation of the protectorate and incorporation of New Normandy as a colony under an appointed governor, effectively ending the tradition of local direct democracies and individual parliament in the Confederation. While that idea was abandoned fairly soon after there was a riotous backlash from the Provincials, it didn't stop the propaganda machine of radical groups such as the Fils de la Liberté from using it as a rallying cry for rebellion. More conservative elements are courted by the ringleaders with the spread of a rumor that Walmington would impose the Catholic-esque Godfreyite Church (which I presume likely had happened in Walmington proper but was guaranteed to not be imposed upon New Normandy) and revoke religious tolerance, which would threaten the mostly Calvinist majority (which I'll call the Gallic Reformed Church, or Huguenots for short) and the minority of Unitarian and Deist free-thinkers. Unlikely alliances formed between the two groups, essentially, over a perceived threat to their religion (I admit I used Scotland during the English Civil War as partial inspiration for that part).

Also at stake is the increasing encouraged centralization by the protectorate government at the behest of Walmington. This led to some power loss from local meetings, a system of direct democracy which were a staple of the New Normans and New Yorkers and were particularly hard to reign in when it came to remote, intrepid communities of voyageurs and pioneers, becoming popular with Capetians and Marylanders as well. The centralization initiatives were done primarily to dissuade from foreign trade and cottage industries challenging the supremacy of the trust of the English East-of-India Company, which had begun to falter from homegrown American competition which threatened the financial security of the Empire. While not particularly grievous issues for most civilized peoples of the time, when trading corporations had begun to take center stage, it would have the potential of increasing the class divide in the American colonies and damaging their fragile domestic economy, for tradesmen who relied on local markets as well as trappers and merchants who relied on foreign free trade. While not an altogether unreasonable action by the representatives of the Walmingtonian Crown & Parliament, it was nevertheless used by the Fils de la Liberté as evidence of encroaching, primarily Anglophone, autocracy in Provincial matters. The Parliament of New Normandy and, later, the Parliament of New York and Land's End tabled demands to their Governors-General and the English Parliament to relent or their Union with the Crown would be forfeit. Martial law eventually was enacted in New Normandy (by order of the aristocratic Governor fearful of populism rather than by English Parliament, an often overlooked fact) and, by 1704 fighting had broken out in much the same way as the IRL American War of Independence. 1706 saw an official introduction of American nationalism as a concept.

New York, Outremer, Capetia and Mary's Land all joined rebellion for their own reasons. New York and Land's End (NY State and Grand Island) was the only one of the ex-Valendian colonies where Englishmen had been transplanted to try to counter-balance the presence of the Germanic and French migrants and, in order to get the colonists there, the English were less selective, allowing many non-Godfreyite (often Reformed) Englishmen to settle the area. They were thus the only solidly English area of North America where Loyalism was in short supply. Outremer and Capetia, while no longer under German overlords, did not find their treatment under the English all too fair either, or at least propagandists worked to make it seem that way. Mary's Land were mostly Fenians and thus treated the worst of the lot.

Not sure who could have aided the Revolution foreign-wise, but New York and New Normandy, by virtue of being previously under trusted status by the Walmingtonian authorities, already had their own well-stocked and well-armed regiments of regulars, some went Loyalist but most went with the Patriotes. The revolutionary war played out as expected, with more rag-tag asymmetric guerrilla warfare from the Republicans to harass the Royalists at first with a few sieges and field battles when well-stocked regulars were available. Initial foreign support or dealings with private arms manufacturers abroad would have been blocked by the Royal Navy until Caribbean privateers were persuaded to come on board with the plan to run blockades and open up the sea lanes, leading to the sparsely-populated privateer-infested Franco-American Caribbean possessions being given their own "statehood" after the War instead of being divided up amongst the mainland states or lost to Walmington. New Normandy had its own pre-Revolution navy as a protectorate which also aided in re-opening shipping lanes. As money, guns and direct military aid arrived at Republican-controlled ports during the War from all nations which had an interest in defeating Walmington (without the Valendians, likely), the war went in favor of the Republicans.

The other colonies/occupied lands involved in the Revolution soon join for their own reasons and budding Enlightenment Age sentiment leads to a vision for a coherent Republican system of government for the American continent. A revolutionary 'Destiny' which causes conflict for the next 150 years. This could also be a good explanation as to the date for Canada being given Dominion status, with the idea perhaps being conceived out of a perceived threat of the Revolution spreading to Canada too. Walmington will continue to view the American Republic as a minor state, an anarchic collection of merchants, sailors, trappers and farmers with no direction and the Wilderness Wars are undertaken without much worry or officiousness on the part of the Walmingtonians. Leading it to being largely a conflict of skirmishes punctuated by only a few short periods of declared war (much like the French & Indian Wars). The targets this time would be the Ohio Valley, the Illinois Territory, western Upper Canada (Canadian side of Lake Erie, Lake Huron, Lake Superior) and the West/Cascadian coast, which Walmington informed me he plans to call Aquilonia. Aquilonia, according to WoS, is to be the Anglophone analogy to the USA and inspired largely by the American Republic on the East Coast, though largely unsuccessful and renamed to New England afterwards, saturated with Loyalist arrivals to displace those with Patriot sympathies. By the conclusion of the Wilderness Wars period, the cause is lost in Aquilonia on the BC/Alaska west coast, won in the Ohio Valley and still in question in western Upper Canada and the Illinois Country by the time of the War of 1812. There is, of course, greater English presence in Upper Canada and greater American claims in the Illinois Country due to logistics and the possibility of interception by the growing Great Lakes fleets on either side.

The War of 1812 "finally" settles the question, with a "status quo ante bellum" officially but an unwritten gentleman's agreement for recognizing Walmingtonian legitimacy to the western Great Lakes region of Upper Canada and American legitimacy to the Pays de Illinois. Amerique holding their own at sea and occasional competence on land despite Walmingtonians outclassing them in both areas leads the major powers, Walmington included, to finally see Amerique as a legitimate state and regional power to contend with. We can flesh out the actual course of the battles later, but I presume they typically favored the Walmingtonians with the Americans able to pull off a few stunning victories here and there that won them some respect from their adversaries.

By the time of the Détente War (1880s?), the aggressive industrialization and open immigration policies of Amerique help to bridge the formerly wide gap between them and their English neighbors and the Americans are now not so much underdogs. Walmington is still among the top world powers with Amerique not yet in the running, but I imagine the war ends up being bloody enough and even enough to warrant a reassessment of the reasons for fighting on both sides. I also imagine that, unlike the European states, Walmington and Amerique both have officer corps which strongly cling to old conceptions of warfare, which helps make the Détente War a particular meat grinder as American Civil War formations are employed despite the chattering responses of the Maxim gun on one side and the Gatling gun on the other. There are certainly far more troops on the American side, though supply is an issue and many volunteer infantry are still armed with M1861 Springfield muzzle-loaders instead of the new breechloaders. In contrast, the Walmingtonians are outnumbered but boast the Maxim gun and breechloader rifles (Snider-Enfields?) issued to all units, not just the regulars. By the end, both sides wisen up a little and we see the first appearance of major trench warfare. I also imagine we could have some cool WWI-esque massive batteries lobbing shells across the Great Lakes constantly, trying to hit vital rail lines carrying troops and supplies to the front. The stalemate continues.

The Walmingtonians come to the realization that the Americans have reached the point of boasting fairly similar capabilities, albeit in different ways, to the Walmingtonians and, much like Britain and France, figure out that to continue fighting is to gravely cripple the success and futures of both their nations. After all, both nations have more in common with each other than with those effete, tyrannical, non-parliamentarian Europeans across the water and who constantly threaten both American and Walmingtonian interests, as well as Amberland. The Détente War ends inconclusively by truce with a new friendship brewing between the two nations out of shared commercial and colonial interests, a desire to keep maritime trade free and unmolested and a general distrust of the Great European Powers. This is what leads them together into the Great War, where their uneasy alliance is cemented into a strong and lasting partnership and their natural distrust for each other erodes and is replaced by a strong, honorable bond forged in the fires of global conflict. From here, I'll provide a short treatise on the role of Amérique in the Great War, largely based on what I had already planned but with capabilities of fighting with Valendia beyond colonial possessions in the Caribbean and naval war off of the Azores, now that there are actually staging areas available to jump into the fight in Europe.

by **Amerique** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:56 am

Oh, yes, and there's also the matter of Hawai'i. This I have not cleared with Walmington beforehand and is somewhat of a proposal:

The Hawaiian Islands are discovered in 1632 by a Walmingtonian Indiaman though remain largely ignored, given the tribal nature of its inhabitants and need for the use of resources in other parts of the Empire. The colony of Australia and the Strait of Wendsleybury (which is what I assume the Strait of Magellan would be called) acts more capably as a midway point to Drapol than the "Sandwich Islands" due to its position accessing the "Clipper route". The Hawaiian islands therefore go mostly unnoticed and untouched.

In 1791, interest is renewed oncemore when an American brig arrives at the islands and scouts them for a maritime trading company with plans for an outpost on the natural harbor on the island of O'ahu, which the Américains translate as the Port des Perles, or Harbor of Pearls. By 1813, at the height of the War of 1812, Commodore David Poitier of the American Navy returns to the islands, christening them the Îles-Madison, in honor of the President at the time and meets with young King Keawe II who unwittingly approves the plans for the American trade outpost in the Port des Perles. Much to the shock and disdain of their English rivals and of the East-of-India Company, whose mid-Pacific trade could be undercut by a new midway point from the Far East to both Hibernordia and Walmington's own Dominion of New England, the trade outpost is to form the nucleus of Ville-Marie, a colonial town on the island of O'ahu.

To counteract their rivals, the English East-of-India Company sets up their own trading outpost and mission on the Big Island of Hawai'i which, though lacking in a good natural harbor, would be close to the Court of the Hawaiian King. The English traders increasingly use gifts of various exotic trinkets from Walmington, whose real value is highly debatable, to secure the ear and support of King Keawe II, allowing many agents of the Company to become "advisors" in the Court on promises of assisting the modernization and sophistication of his demesne. In squabbles between local chieftains and the Company, King Keawe II often takes the side of the English and harbors the Royal Navy, which increasingly threatens trade in Ville-Marie. Eventually, the increasingly mad King removes chieftains and their right to tribal levies entirely. By the time the King had become incapable in 1833, he had signed away the Islands to the East-of-India Company for a particularly-amusing cuckoo clock depicting a man dropping his trousers every thirty minutes.

Walmington sends a Colonial Governor to the islands in 1841, and he was received by Mad King Keawe, who was still under the delusion of being King and welcomed the Governor's entourage with open arms and delight at the prospect of "more friends". The Governor entertained the Mad King for the rest of the Keawe II's existence, as he ended the resistance of the local chieftains to the English companies and kept the local population in check as he was still viewed jovially by the native populace. While the American Navy at Ville-Marie refused to recognize the new land claim of the "Colony of the Sandwich Islands", stating that Amérique had rightfully purchased the island of O'ahu as separate from the Hawaiian Kingdom, the American Republic was in no position to risk a war with the Walmingtonian Empire at the zenith of its power, especially with industrialization only recently taking root in Amérique while Walmington had already pioneered much of the Industrial Revolution. The Americans were escorted out by the Royal Navy in 1845 with a promise to the small population of Franco-American colonists, planters and missionaries that Amérique "will return" for them.

This promise was honored with the Détente War wherein the American Navy do indeed return while the Empire is stretched thin fighting on multiple fronts. While the American fleet is much smaller in firepower and tonnage than the Royal Navy flotilla, they nevertheless pull off a surprising victory, comparative to some naval battles of the War of 1812, aided largely by superior maneuverability and an underestimation of American seamanship by the Walmingtonian command. The battle for the islands is fought against a much larger than expected garrison of Company mercenaries and Royal Marines and, along with the capture of Sun'gachi (Songac) in the same war, the capture of the Azures in a colonial war with Valendia and several actions of the War of 1812 previous, is regarded as one of the events in which the American Corps of Marine Troops matured as a separate branch of the military, immortalized in the fighting song "From the Beaches of O'ahu". By the end of the Détente War, the Walmingtonians and Americans "buried the hatchet" over territorial grievances on the Hawaiian Islands, with the American Republic paying a hefty sum to the Walmingtonians in return for full control. The Îles-Madison, also referred to as Hawai'i, were then incorporated into the administration of the state of France Équinoxiale, or Tropical (New) France. With the growth of Ville-Marie (Honolulu) in the late 19th century and the 20th century to the largest city in the state, France Équinoxiale maintains two administrative capitals, one in Ville-Marie and a separate Atlantic/Caribbean one under the administration of a Deputy Governor in Cayenne.

by **Chrinthania** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:13 pm

I'm hesitant, NG, to want Roman (Emesan, really, since you're not fully Roman at this point) contact with the Paradise Islands due to the fact that would seem rather odd to have two claim that have such influence. Particularly if the main claim is the originator of Roman culture.

As far as Mod's post, I think the Western Romans would be the first to recognize the birth of the new American republic. Certainly the Romans may have been one of the greatest empires the world had ever seen prior to the rise of the Walmies, and this was probably our way of waking up to that fact. We may have been willing to ship supplies to the fledgling nation to give it some assistance in its war with Walmington without actually sending any troops. The Romans are quite aware of their reduce influence around that time and are probably trying their damnedest to work out how to still be relevant at that time.

by **Dra-pol** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:54 pm

Yep, that's mostly right by me, so far as the first post goes, Amerique, with a few inconsequential tweaks regarding military technology ((probably the range of artillery in the day precludes much cross-lake lobbing of ordnance, but the Walmingtonians would definitely have put Armstrong Disappearing Guns at key points such as narrows and near ports, and built ironclad warships on the lakes)).

I'm less than completely sure about the Hawaii thing, at the moment, simply because it seems like quite a significant thing to give-up if it had been in English hands, and hard for America, with no Pacific ports, to secure against Walmingtonian interest. It currently looks like quite a lot of losses for WoS during the later conflicts, which wouldn't necessarily be a problem if WoS weren't supposed to be still a global power. At the moment it seems surprising that America, very much North Atlantic, was able to make gains in the Indian and Pacific Oceans against a nation with ports in Canada, Chile, East Africa, South Asia, and a somewhat subordinate ally on the Malacca Strait. Company troops in Hawaii might have proved lacklustre, but short of capturing Gokarna ((Trincomalee)) it seems improbable that the Americans could have lasted a week in the Bay of Bengal as an aggressor. I think Songac should probably be a long-standing possession, and one that keeps its head down during the Anglo-American wars in order to survive, or else one that the English capture and later hand back in exchange for something occupied by the Americans elsewhere in the world. I assume we'll have to find someone or something else to pin-down or worry the English East Indies and Pacific Stations if they're not to simply counter-attack after any American upset in Drapol or Hawaii.

Still, Chrinthania perhaps raises a good point. Historically, perhaps the only major empire in reality that surrendered its hegemony to a challenger without going down swinging was Britain, peacefully accepting the rise of the USA during the C20th. Rome is not the sort of empire to do that, and, seeing the rise of the Walmingtonians, would most likely have tried to assert itself at English expense.

Meanwhile, in Dra-pol...
'Back in the day', many years ago, Dra-pol was a hermit state that'd refused virtually all outside contact, and when it was forced open by a USA-like nation, it resisted with bolt-action rifles apparently obtained from Japan during WWII ((back then we had a Japan... and a WWII!)) and little else. Gradually, over the years, with all the wars ((Dra-pol was invaded by a larger version of the USA, an alternate China, half of India, and numerous other supporting powers, and never fully defeated)) it almost accidentally turned into a sort of double-sized North Korea, and became industrialised and in command of vast armoured and aerial forces.

In the new AMW, I suppose I'm having trouble enjoying that, or justifying it. If Director Hotan has all this industrial might behind him like a mini USSR, how can I justify the National Republic and the foreign concessions still existing, after all? Indeed, why is Singapore a glistening city of towers rather than a smouldering stack of ruins?

So I think that I'm going to refocus on the old set-up, in which the Chaoists were more about the peasantry than workers. The CPRD will still be an exporter of rice, gemstones, timber, natural rubber, sugar, tea, and to a much smaller degree some fuels, with a focus on aid to Y Berfeddwlad, Wyclyfe, and Congo, but industry will also be more collectivised and based on human-power, as it was back when the Quinntonians first invaded and AMW was conceived. Oh, and opium, too, obviously.

I'll be doing-up the history a bit, too, which may be of some relevance to the imperial powers that later arrived in the region. There will have been four ((ethnically and culturally linked)) nations amongst the Drapoel that came to prominence during the Middle Ages, with the Sudrap Dynasty dominating the highlands of Upper Drapol and headwaters of the Myian, seated at (amongst other short-lived capitals) Da'Khiem and the palatial residence at Wangsan; the Ide Kingdom of the west coast, centred on the port city of Ide'tou; around the fertile Myian delta the Kingdom of Ke, seated at Ke'to; and the easterly Pin'drap Dynasty, which had its capital at Kheol and M'aek during different periods.

The Sudraps, armed with early gunpowder weapons in addition to elephant and cavalry troops, come down the Myian, or Iron River, and destroy the Kingdom of Ke, while the Pin'drap are probably warring with the Emesans on 'the Devil's Neck', and the Ide may be skirmishing with them at sea and maybe raiding the Zephyrs. The Sudraps are by this point unstoppable, and conquer the remaining states in turn, but perhaps have less than total control there and local authorities exercise considerable influence on the coast beyond the Myian Delta when the English and Americans begin to arrive. Thus Walmington and America extract concessions from authorities that the imperial government up in the old Sudrap state considers illegitimate, and generations of conflict ensue.

Accordingly, the National Republic might style itself as a successor to the Pin'draps in hopes of gaining support from the local populace... and this might have some part to play in the rather sub-par relationship with Emesa, who wonder why they should side with the Pin'draps, who fought them for centuries, against the Sudraps, who fought them for decades.

I'm thinking that we go back to part of Dra-pol never being conquered, as was the case in AMW V1.0. This would be the core of the old Sudrap Dynasty, in Upper Drapol, or northern Burma. In the Great War, they become if not officially a signatory to the Pact of Oak then certainly a co-belligerent, and take a significant role in fighting against WoS, Emesa, and America, in Lower Drapol, the prospect of their victory threatening strategic supplies of rubber, tin, medical opiates, and so on.

Well, before I get sleepier and my rambling becomes dreamier, I should head off.

by **Nova Gaul** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:36 pm

It’s a good point Chrin and I concur.

And, my dear Amerique, although I’d love for Emesa to provide you with some competition in the Pacific, I just can’t get my head around the Emesans could ever conceive of launching an operation, successfully let alone at all, against a nation with the resources of the Grand Republic. I wouldn’t be playing Japan to your U.S., and in fact a correspondingly witty analogy even escapes me right now. A free Taiwan against Imperial Japan? Something like that at any rate. The more I think about it, and the more Dra-pol is presenting fascinating new histories, the more I see Emesa being obsessed with its Northern neighbor, especially if English dominance after Dra-pol gets through is anything less than total for an extended period of time.

Now, regardless of how any tweaks and nips to Dra-pol go WoS, I must say it is more or less critical to the history I’ve written (and more importantly, that I like) that the English exert a spectacular influence on Emesa between 1880 and 1920, roughly. The extent of this ‘cargo cult’ would be the catalyst for Emesan modernization, in everything from representative government, adopting a rational scientific paradigm, to going to far as to adopt Godfreyite Christianity lock, stock and barrel. Now I don’t know how Walmington would accomplish this sans a Drapoel colony. I’m speculating about a number of things right now: English missionaries might have been successful in the superlative, we might have a very positive outcome to the Commodore Perry/Japan scenario, we might even more fantastically have had a cargo cult scenario where the Emesans had been severed from the ‘other Romans’ for so long—and locked in perpetual life or death struggles with the Drapoel along the Devil’s neck for so long—that they actually viewed the English initially (with their crisp uniforms and powerful technology) as demigods. If Great Walmington was cynical enough, maybe they waited a year or two before dispelling these notions of quasi-divinity. Most likely, Emesa experienced a combination of all three. What’s important for me is not so much the means but the end, and the end being powerful enough to sublimate the Emesans’ paganism and superstition and slavery ways into stoic Anglophilia.

And important too is that any history we concoct doesn’t derail what looks to be exciting RPs ahead! (Too, given the changes you suggest, I think I can keep my last few posts as Emesa—which very much deal with both Dra-pols—in tact…I think.)

Another upshot is that a decrease in Walmingtonian influence in the 70’s and 80’s, which tied Emesa firmly to the English as the Parliament of Nations battled it out with the Kurosites, would leave the modern Emesan state far more predisposed to consider a Commonwealth sort of arrangement with the Western Empire. And although Emesa would be somewhat leery of Areo eccentricities and Greek—Constantinopolitan—pagans, perhaps a Freudian fear, I think the basic cultural framework between all states involved would be similar enough to give this idea legs. Interestingly enough, given that there are four actual claimants to the original Imperial Throne of Rome, we would even have something of a Tetrarchy I suppose!

by **Amerique** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:57 pm

I had originally considered some more inconsequential island chains, but there isn't actually very much in the western Pacific beyond Hawaii and French Polynesia. Regardless of whether I add Hawaii or not, I can't quite come to terms with a nominally anti-imperial republic attempting to assert hegemony over the Americas and nowhere else being able to justify a colony in North Africa, which is why I decided to just drop that claim, which you can feel free to incorporate into Mauretania. Maybe it was once held by the Americans as a protectorate with a puppet emir but lost in the War of 1812 or the Détente War and given to Walmington as a result. If anyone wants a part of Guyana, I've left Suriname open right now.

I'm not that set on Hawaii, of course, it was just an idea to have some Pacific islands as a halfway point to Songac for maritime trade (as well as some interesting Presidential vacation spots

). It is certainly more accessible from Western Canada, of course. I could easily change the capture of Hawaii to the capture of the Azores in a naval war against Valendia when it comes to shining moments in early Marine history. Aquilonia and Canada would have had American settlements when the Western Frontier wasn't yet settled but were lost in the Wilderness Wars and the War of 1812. As far as Songac goes, I can change it to say it survives in the Sea of Drapol after being acquired by the American Maritime Company by becoming a "Free City", technically a separate state under American protection. It's a status that continues until this day and helps Amerique wash its hands of any claims of colonialism or imperialism conveniently as well as avoid unwanted attention during the Détente War (I presume). Much like a mini-Hong Kong.

by **Chrinthania** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:03 pm

Four claimants to the original Roman Throne? Who is the fourth? Eastern Empire, Western Empire, and Emesa are all that I see. Without Rome actually falling and fracturing as it did IRL, the Western Empire, which continues to identify itself solely as Roman, probably exerts its claim to that Throne and, in fact, the Western Emperors still sit on that throne, figuratively speaking. The goal of a Roman Commonwealth would be to finally put an end to any type of bickering on this account through some means that, in future, we can all agree upon. In fact, I'd like to organize this OOCly if at all possible because all of the potential members aren't always available to fully RP anything due to RL constraints.

The potential members are, based upon the extent of the AMW Roman Empire of Antiquity:

Western Roman Empire (AKA Roman Empire)
Eastern Roman Empire (AKA Byzantine Empire)
Areopagitican
Canaan
Valendia
Beddgelert (though we doubt this would ever fly with the other nations involved let alone Beddgelert)

Also, potential members include:

Emesa, as a Roman Legacy State (Founded by Romans with Roman principles in place even if they've been changed to fit the local landscape over time, but never having been a portion of the United Roman Empire.)
Future applicants, if their dispositions and histories are agreeable to such a notion, who take the lands of England, Wales, the sliver between Valendia and Nibelunc, and Egypt into their claims.
Future applicants who use the Roman Empire as their colonizers (thought, I don't really see that happening too often, if at all).

Now, onto Hawaii....

While I don't have a problem with Mod claiming Hawaii, WoS does raise an interesting point. It doesn't make sense for it to be Americain. Without ports on the Pacific Ocean, without any reason to go into the Pacific (No WW2 type naval war, etc....) I just don't see it making complete sense.

AMW Big Discussion Thread

Who is online