AMW Big Discussion Thread

[Amerique]

Lusaka, we're also willing to export thousands of M1 Garands, Thompsons and early-model M14s, along with maybe a hundred Pattons, to the conflict zone. You know, as long as you misplace a crate of blood diamonds on the runway by the cargo plane.

Maybe a few permits to build sweat shops happen to fall on the laps of Amerique corporations...

[Iansisle]

Well, Lusaka, it does occur to me that your claim encompasses the range of the western Derby's eland, a close (but smaller and far inferior) relative of the common eland that were ever so popular among the aristocratic classes of the old Shield -- that alone could have led to a certain degree of support from Ianapalis -- though, of course, not as much as would have gone to a place like Nilosahara or Larkinia (if indeed they still exist). And, granted, the Empire never had a lot of money to splash around -- and never really got along with the Gandvians -- but it is something.

[/important]

[Lusaka]

I doubt there's much in the way of 'blood diamonds' in Lusaka. It's Derek's UARL in the south that has diamonds, and they're extracted either by state enterprises or community co-operatives. The north has the appropriate criminal infrastructure, but lacks the diamond deposits. I think the major natural resource available to the north would be phosphates.

In terms of population and economic strength, each of the Lusaka's is very loosely comparable to such countries as Cameroon or the Ivory Coast. If either of them received a hundred tanks, about eighty of them would probably never be crewed, and would gradually be picked apart to keep the other twenty running.

If I'm reading these responses correctly, it looks like the sectarian element of the north-south divide will perhaps matter chiefly to ordinary Lusakans and less so to the rest of the world. Presumably foreign powers are concerned more with the economic ideologies of the two leaders, one being about African self-reliance and public ownership, and the other about letting foreign corporations do whatever they like so long as it means they line his family's pockets and lobby their governments to help him shoot at the other.

It looks like the Lusakas will one day be able to have a proper war, at least. People with M1 Garands shooting at people with Rasheed carbines, one side supported by Pattons and the other by, what, lend-lease Grizzly tanks? And light civil aircraft with machine-guns strapped on dogfighting with helicopters most westerners would expect to see reporting on rush-hour traffic.

And yes, both Lusakas would happily exploit the native fauna for economic gain (the north more recklessly than the south, but Derek wouldn't be adverse to showing some rich white psychopath around a game reserve if it secures a bit of foreign currency for his nation). Roll up, roll up, be the first to... try making cheese from the milk of the world's smallest antelope?

[Europe - Prussia]

Like I said above, we could keep things simple with me keeping the regions of Catalonia, Navarre, Basque country and the north half of Aragon, with you keeping the entire population of Aragon and it's industrial complex. I'm open to other ideas if you have another one though so no worries. To tell you the truth I would give you those territories and establish the border at the Pyrenees seeing that the Spanish culture continues to exist through your nation but by now I have everything so intermingled that it would be too big of a hassle to rewrite my factbook. I know I sound somewhat lazy but please bear with me

Hold on a minute. I may be misreading what is highlighted in bold text in your quote. Perhaps, again, I should propose that, since you have superior French military kit, that all of Spain's military kit be left to the Western Roman Empire. At the moment, I am inclined to believe that is what you already said, though the statement itself could indicate just what's made in Aragon, which wouldn't be how I've read it.

Well, I just said just Aragon but for the sake of keep things simple, I agree with your idea of keeping the whole Spanish military kit. As you said, I have the French one plus some Swiss stuff so I don't need the Spanish stuff, especially if you need it more then I. All of the military factories IRL are in Madrid while the shipyards are in Cadiz and Ferrol so there shouldn't be a problem to begin with.

About our shared history, I think that things can go pretty much like RL, with Caesar conquering Gaul and all of that stuff. The changing point would be in the 476, which marks the fall of the RL Roman Empire; we need to figure out how the territories that form Valendia broke from Rome to form their own countries, which would lead to Valendia's eventual creation. Maybe some general gained power in Gaul and broke from Rome? or maybe the Franks overruned the Roman forces and they in the end allowed it because they considered the potential loss of troops 'not worth the effort'?

So, any thoughts?

[Chrinthania]

Yes, actually. I do have some thoughts about that. I'm not certain of the religious makeup of your claim, but of Catholicism is very big for your people, and the Western Roman Empire having a falling out with the Catholic Church in 476 AD, then that could be 1 flashpoint as to why your territory is broke free from the Western Empire. Now, option 2, between 476 and 480 a deep, there was a massive civil war in the Western Empire. There were several people claiming to be the new Western Roman Emperor, along with papal forces, all trying to vie for control of Rome. Since the war was kind of big and bad in over taxing for the poor Western Empire, it could probably give an enterprising General in your territory the ability to launch some sort of break away from the Western Empire. After that, Emperor Trajan II will have complete control of the Western Roman Empire and break away after 480 would be rather difficult.

[Beddgelert]

I'd think any time from 407CE on would probably represent a, "Hey, I haven't heard from Rome in a while, maybe we should just break away and form our own empire" moment for the Valendians, given that the Apennine peninsula was being pummelled by the Triarchy, no? Emperors were being used as Celtic footstools in 407, the imperial city itself is sacked in both 408 and 455, Rome quits Lpqy Magna in 410, the Empire is fighting (losing) defensive campaigns against the Celts both in Italy and the Saimonas in 419 and 427, and the Emperor himself is killed in battle with the Geletians in 475, though admittedly that probably marks the lowest ebb before the tide finally turns back in Rome's favour.

I suppose now's as good a time as any to finally point out a few errors in the current WRE history so far as they relate to early interaction with the Geletians. (I realise, of course, that it's all actually Jean's fault But whenever you feel like doing a tidy-up, Chrin, these are just the few things I noticed.)

Obviously repeated use of, 'Begdellen' is wrong for at least two reasons, and should be replaced probably with, 'Geletian'.

References to the Balkans need similar AMW-isation.

From Rome's perspective, Moesia Superior isn't across the Danube as seems to be suggested at 109CE, but on its right/southern bank. If Trajan does cross the Danu, he doesn't stay, and Moesia is established south of the river, certainly not beyond it.

Goths aren't a Geletian/Celtic tribe as seems to be suggested at one point on integration of barbarians into the imperial military.

The initial Geletian invasion of Italy (407CE) was lead by a man named Ollrix (Olrics in Geletian), and Akuta (Acwta in Geletian) only comes into play in the later campaign leading to the second Geletian sack of Rome (455CE), Jean must have been imagining an eighty year old Akuta on the rampage, I suppose!

There may be other things, but those were just the ones that used to annoy me in the time between Jean leaving Rome and Chrin picking it up.

Oh, query on more recent history: I noticed in a recent news post you wrote, "the Western Roman Empire may be forced to directly engage the Celtic Nation for the first time in 1500 years." Are you sure it's not more like 67 or so?

[Councordia]

Well, hey. if we're on the topic of WRE and history, I've been broken from them for about 600 years IC. We can edit that in, too. Right around the time of the Reformation.

[Chrinthania]

Well, I forgot about all that, Beddgelert. So, Valendia's separation from the Western Empire could have been a gradual event during that time. With Roman forces dealing with Celtic incursions, it probably amounts to a don't-worry-about-Gaul-while-Rome-is-saked kind of thing. It could very well have been given a lot more autonomy for some local proconsul to administer, who may have carved for himself some territory/declared himself an emperor/king when it looked like Rome was about to collapse.

After 480, Trajan II wasn't worried so much about expanding the empire, but stabilizing what remained of the Western Empire.

And, we don't count the Great War. We didn't fight you in your territory, we fought you on our own.

As to Councordia, well, if that's when you want to do it, that's fine with me. 600 years ago works. But, don't get the idea that the Western Empire was a Catholic Empire. The Reformation may have been a big deal for other nations, but, for the Western Empire, it was just a rather interesting affair in which the people themselves were left to decide whether or not they believed Luther or not. So, that being said, any separation wouldn't be specifically due to religious differences.

Of course, without my history really being fleshed out in any detail, there's not really anything for me to speak of, per se, that could give you impetus to separate. You tell me whether or not you want armed conflict for separation or a general "Rome was busy looking elsewhere while you did your own thing."

[Councordia]

A war of liberation based on religion (at least partly) was something I had in mind...something that profoundly affected Councordian culture and psyche, and propelled the current royal House into its current position. Of course, politics/economics would play a role. The Councordians are germanic in language and ethnicity, and they're also fairly egalitarian and have an independent streak a mile wide. Also, the region (in my thinking, this probably doesn't reflect RL geography/geology) has some valuable mineral and gold mines that the Empire could conceivably want to keep.

[Beddgelert]

Thoughts from an outside in the matter re. Councordia's independence war.

By the 1400s, with Valendia long-since independent of Rome, the WRE won't share a border with Councordia (assuming it exists in Austria and Bavaria etc), but then East and West Pakistan didn't share borders, and for a long time in history France was pretty fragmentary, so I don't think it's unrealistic. Access could also most likely be gained through the Grand Duchy of Tsalland (I've never been sure why he was a Grand Duchy with an Archduke, but whatever), which may well have been sympathetic, and in fact a possible factor in Rome's reluctance to let go despite not necessarily sharing the Councordians' religious motivations.

Given Rome's remoteness and, more importantly, Chrin's desire to play-up the empire's secularism and what I (perhaps wrongly) perceive to be a lukewarm interest in a sectarian conflict, perhaps the Councordian war of independence was almost more of a civil war. The province would have been administered remotely, and perhaps supporters of Rome tended to be Catholics, while independence advocates tended to be Protestants. Rome might have been inclined to say, "Okay, well, if you want to go, just go" but thousands of people in Councordia who saw themselves either as Roman or as Catholic might have strongly disagreed. Similarly, Tsalland, dominated by Orthodox and Catholic tendencies, might well have supported the Roman/Catholic element, and pressured Rome to do something about the Protestant uprising.

And that concludes my thoughts on the matter.

[Chrinthania]

I suppose the major issue for Rome wasn't the religious matter, but the idea of yet more of its long-standing empire breaking away. That would be enough to cause the emperor to engage the idea of military action. Of course, if sectarian violence becomes a major component of this conflict, chances are the Emperor would eventually abandon the fight and allow Councordia to go its own way.

[The Crooked Beat]

Well, in response to Lusaka's last post, Mali flew MiG-21s during the 1980s (though, granted, I don't think any are airworthy today), and Botswana operates what I've seen called Sub-Saharan Africa's most capable non-South African air force with its dozen or so CF-5s, so I doubt anyone would be particularly bothered if Southern or Northern Lusaka had at least a few fast jets in its arsenal, past or present, but it isn't a major point, of course. Maybe Derek could get away with buying a handful of BG's Soko J-20 Kraguj equivalents? If any aircraft seems ideally-suited for a small, cash-strapped Air Force, the Kraguj is it.

Though decidedly non-democratic, Gandvik is, in my mind at least, still something of an honorable nation, in that there are lines that Riga will not officially cross, and assassinating a foreign head of state is probably one of them. That's not to say there aren't elements within Gandvik's ruling establishment who wouldn't be more than happy to back a coup or engage in general subversion for profit, but such activities wouldn't necessarily receive high-level sanction, especially not now that the Principality is trying to reach out to Western Europe in a commercial fashion. Of course, with Gandvik's intelligence agencies operating as essentially a law unto themselves, there's plenty of scope for underhanded dealings.

No doubt a fair few Grizzlies would have ended-up in northern Lusaka, and maybe a few of these unusual machines as well. It would certainly make for an interesting match-up against the Patton, but if I was a betting man, my money would definitely be on the M48. Anyway, just some offhand comments, and it's wonderful to see this new Lusaka taking shape. I look forward to future intrigues!

[Councordia]

I like both the options proposed, and both of them would actually work quite well. Together.

[Walmington on Sea]

My only problem with the Councordian thing so far is the date. Luther was only born late in 1483, and didn't post his famous thesis until late 1517, so it'd be tough to have a Lutheran revolt 600 years ago :)

However, this being AMW, we do have Godfrey Walming, pre-empter of the Reformation, who began delivering anti-papal sermons probably in the 1470s, in Amberland ((East Prussia)), to where English Lollardy has also been transported in AMW, leading to the Godfreyite Reformed Church, if that's any help.

Amberland's progress through the Reformation otherwise broadly follows that of RL England, with the Godfreyites running off to the New World.

[Councordia]

I realize Luther was born in 1483. I was speaking in generalities. Less than 500 years. My bad.

[Cassanos]

For the record, Luther lived pretty much as IRL, supported by most lords of Saxony and Nibelunc, encountering resistance in Suabinc.

[Councordia]

impressed you all have it worked out in that level of detail

[The Amyclae]

With a new nation or two, or three if you count Lusaka, I guess this means that there could be a reason for me to pontificate about Areo foreign relations? Right?... Right?

Since the whole 'Papist v Going-to-Hell' dynamic has been dead for quite some time, assuming it was ever alive, there has to be some other reasoning behind the dictates coming out of Lpqy Magna. For better or worse, especially with the recent conflict in mind, Areopagitican will be looking to build alliances with certain of the new nations but by no means all of them. Of course, how to explain this consensus building? A better dynamic, which has been offered by Mod a few months back, is those of a classical bent should generally themselves more agreeable to each other while hostile to the modern, marginally more democratic, states. I'd add my own quirk, and perhaps point out that the ethnocentric constructions are generally opposed by the racially diverse.

Science, rationalism, logical reasoning, efficiency and all the common adjectives of the modern bureaucratic state are right out the window. What is left is a peculiar form of humanism, in the original non-secular sense of the word, that delights in its inefficiency. I think Concourdia has a good look about it, and so does Canaan. The two new Lusakan states seem to fighting over principles a romantic mind simply wouldn't understand, so Areopagitican will try to look the other way or shove the facts together in a way that it fits into their assumptions.

...Yeh, I'm just rambling.

[Lusaka]

Snippety

So I've decided that northern Lusaka will style itself the Senegambian Kingdom and the legitimate successor to Gandvian West Africa. Derek will probably deride it as, “The Semi-Gandvian Kingdom”. I think that the Gandvians might have been looking for any way out in the 1950s, and gone along with the power-grabbing of a native officer in Dakar who sets himself up as head of a transitional military council but then neglects the 'transitional' and the 'council' parts of that arrangement. He probably upset the colonial authorities quite a lot with his gung ho antics, but Riga just wanted out, and saw that he was willing to allow some Gandvian firms to keep their monopolies so long as he had political power.

Then he set himself up as King, or Damel, Adomas (Adam, the first man) and spent most of his reign organising purge after purge, so that when he finally died, civil war was the inevitable result of the power vacuum he'd left. Perhaps, though, his reign had seen some degree of economic growth, because he at least kept a lid on dissent and allowed Gandvian companies to continue exploiting phosphate, gold, diamond, iron, bauxite, uranium, fish, and timber resources, perhaps driving the long effectively-autonomous southern communities under-ground. The civil war then derails that, and at the end of it a Damel Vytautas is crowned, but his position is much weaker than that of Adomas, and so arises a Derek to restore the south's autonomy. Bush war dominates the late 1970s and early 1980s, and then Derek more or less wins in the south. Vytautas doesn't survive the defeat, and is replaced in a palace coup by Damel Tomas (Thomas), the current king of Senegambia.

I think that without the support of the likes of the USSR, or the wealth and comparative stability of Botswana, maintaining a significant force of fast jets would be a fools errand for either Lusaka, but COIN aircraft such as the Kraguj, and maybe light subsonic jets like the Galeb and Jastreb or other armed trainers seem likely to serve along-side light transport planes and/or helicopters.

Is the Stridsvagn 74 called that in AMW? I do like the idea of such an odd looking thing being involved. Derek will have cast-off tanks from Beddgelert in the 1980s and maybe Dra-pol in the 1990s, and nothing since, so probably myriad T-54 mutants, most of which he's pulled apart to keep a handfull running, up against a larger number of Strv.74 and Sherman variants that are in fine condition but lack sufficient trained and politically reliable crews.

[The Crooked Beat]

That all looks very strong from my point of view, Lusaka! I look forward to seeing this nation in action.

You should feel free to detail the Senegambian Kingdom's relationship with Gandvik as you see fit, since Riga might have done just about anything between independence and the present day. No doubt there's some Gandvian Jacques Foccart running around, making sure that everyone's palms are thoroughly greased. Maybe the Senegambian leadership could even buy continued Gandvian support by funding the political ambitions of certain figures, in line with that major French scandal of the 1980s. As always, just some thoughts, and whatever you decide is fine by me.

In AMW, the Strv 74 would be called the Panssarivaunu (Pav.) 74, that being the Finnish translation of Stridsvagn. All other characteristics would remain the same.

[United Kongo]

Hey all,

seeing as this is the discussion thread, this would probably be the best place to help fill in some of the SFC's history, basically it's colonial one which will have a large impact on the modern day nation. Would their be anyone willing to step in as SFC colonial ruler for the second half of the 19th century to the first half of the 20th.

Although this is still up for change, what I sought of had imagined was around the 1840s and 1850s growing interest about the interior of the Sultanate of Kongo rather then just the coastal trading posts, and so a number of expeditions and missionaries are sent inland to explore the interior and would eventually stumble upon the recourse rich interior and wealthy Congo trade network.

The Kongolese would not be happy to see them snooping around inland rather than staying on the coast where they can be satisfied with gold and slaves for guns, and the Christians would be seen as a threat to Islam in the region. Given the more Xenophobic and Isolationist mindset after a revolution years earlier, the Kongolese would be hostile and eventually attack the Europeans, leaving their home state outraged and demanding blood.

In retribution, a large European military expedition is sent sometime in the 1850s/60s, and aided by native allies utterly crushes the Kongolese army in a battle won by superior guns and luck. This forces the Sultan to submit himself as a vassal (or lose his throne and have his capital razed) and for the next 20 or 30 years or so European advisers/ Companies would move in to exploit the kingdom and take control until it’s official annexation as a colony around the 1880s/90s.

Anyway that’s pretty much it for now, decolonization could be worked out after I have a Colonial ruler, anyone interested?

Also Lusaka, I could perhaps see Interaction of some sought between the SFC and South Lusaka due to similar ideology some time down the track if your interested.

[Beddgelert]

I doubt you'll have trouble finding someone. While we wait for others to weigh in, a quick over-view of the likely candidates in my opinion, in case you want to think about the particular culture and language that might have been imported.

First off, there's Walmington, which essentially stands in for the British Empire in AMW, and represents the premier colonial power. The people are English (though they arose in East Prussia instead of the British Isles), and they still maintain colonies all around the world, including several in Africa, in Morocco, Sao Tome and Principe, Namibia and part of South Africa, and part of Sudan. Though they still control a large empire, they have also lost parts of it, most notably Dra-pol (in Burma). Obviously they're English-speaking, and their religion is Protestant of a sort. Their empire banned the slave trade relatively early.

Their rival in much of what would traditionally be thought of as the age of empire is Amerique, which -to grossly over-simplify- is something like a blend of France and America, and maintains the remains of an empire, including part of Western Sahara. They, I think, are also largely Protestant, and are Francophone.

Their origins are in another imperial country, Valendia, which is a bit of a Frenchy Prussiany deal, and which was involved in European colonisation in North America and maintains the remnants of empire elsewhere.

Gandvik, as we've just seen, was also involved in colonialism, but I get the impression that they probably didn't hold more than just Lusaka in Africa.

Both Eastern (Greek) and Western (Latin) Roman Empires might be candidates, but were probably rather more focused on the Mediterranean area than deepest Africa, though I'm sure both players would be willing to talk if you want to go that way.

My own nation would at the time have been the Geletian Triarchy, which I've thought of as likewise fairly Eurocentric, but because it did see itself as equal to the great Euro-American imperial powers, it might have given the Kongo a shot, if druidic Celts float your colonial boat =)

And then there's the Grand Duchy of Tsalland, a Slavic orthodox state on the Adriatic, which was much smaller and somewhat poorer than the big colonial powers, but I think might have been up to the task of controlling one large colonial territory. I mean, if the likes of Belgium and Portugal managed such things, it must be viable. Tsalland was destroyed by the Geletians, but that only happened about three years ago, so wouldn't have any impact on earlier colonial history.

Other remote possibilities would be Nibelunc, Cassanos, and Saxony, Germanic (and in Cassanos' case, Celtic) states in Central Europe. At the moment I don't think they have any stake in historic colonialism, but I wouldn't want to rule it out if Cass himself hasn't done so explicitly.

Most of the candidates would probably have fought to hold on to their empire, and have to be driven out militarily, which would be no mean feat, especially with the likes of Walmington and Amerique that have continued to be major powers that still maintain other colonies. Tsalland, though, was over-run by the Geletians in the Saimonan War of 1915/16, and would either have lost control of any colony, or perhaps transferred it to the victorious Celts. Geletia, for its part, was on the losing side of the Great War come 1945, and might have been forced to give up any over-seas holding, or simply been too broke to keep it up for long and given up, especially likely if it was a colony almost accidentally inherited from Tsalland. Possibly the Tsags would have tried to recover it like European powers walking back into their Asian colonies after WWII, but found it rather harder second time round.

Well, that's enough idea-spewing for now =)

[Chrinthania]

While Beddgelert has the 1,700th post in this thread overall, I have the 1,700th reply! And, for a tad bit of a ha-ha factor, this is also the beginning of page 69 of this thread (heh).

Anyway, well, having the luxury of having Spain and Portugal (for the most part) does offer the Western Roman Empire up as a potential colonizer. Of course, as Beddgelert says, we were/are more focused on the Mediterranean. Still, I'm not opposed to being a colonizer in the Age of Exploration and Colonization. I just don't want to get to a point where it would cause a real shift in AMW history. A few colonies, here and there, from an enterprising Emperor trying to reclaim Roman glory aren't out of the question. Of course, as would be the case, they wouldn't have probably held up as well as Americain or Walmingtonian colonies have over the years with us, most likely, losing them by revolution within the colony itself or having another, more powerful empire coming in to take over.

Understand, though, that Spanish and Portuguese culture as it is in RL would be more Romanized, so, chances are that, while maintaining some semblance of their RL counterparts, it is still Roman at heart.

That's my two cents.

[United Kongo]

hmmm, well after going through all these excellent digestions, I think I have put together something that could work.

The Romans would probably have been the first to go into the region, although they would not have been the focused on Conquest and Colonization due to their Mediterranean-centric view, and so would have confined themselves to a number of Trading posts and enclaves on the coast (like the Portuguese in Angola/Mozambique) between the 15th and early 19th centuries, content to trade Guns for Gold/Slaves/Diamonds.

During the early 19th century the slowing down of commerce in the Congo lead the Romans to lose interest and instead decide to Sell it’s possessions to the Tsags, who were interested in building their own colonial empire to increase their prestige. The Tsags would eventually conquer the region and formally annexed it as a Colony during the 1890s. The Tsags would then in turn lose the colony to the Geletians after the Saimonan war in 1916. The Geletians would hold onto the Colony until their defeat in 1945. After would I’d Imagine the Congo would be either briefly jointly administered by the victorious nations or given back to Tsagija before being granted Independence due to the strong independence movement, sometime in the late 1940’s or early 1950s.

Also, Tsagijan/Geletian companies and mercenaries would probably have a large impact post independence, with these groups supporting separatist movements in return for exclusive economic rights or hiring Mercenaries to protect their own interests.

[Cassanos]

Other remote possibilities would be Nibelunc, Cassanos, and Saxony, Germanic (and in Cassanos' case, Celtic) states in Central Europe. At the moment I don't think they have any stake in historic colonialism, but I wouldn't want to rule it out if Cass himself hasn't done so explicitly.

I think I did, but only on the IRC. Must remember to add more posts to my factbook at some time...
Anyway, no Nibelung state has ever engaged in overseas colonisation, though a decent number of Nibelungs, Cassanotians, Saxons etc. have emigrated to other nations' colonies.