AMW Big Discussion Thread

[Iansisle]

Collective security is probably very welcome on the Shield, where the Republic faces up to three potentially hostile countries (including two that they've fought in the last couple years) with double the Republic's population and five to twelve times its economic productivity. Cementing ties to Nibelunc and the democratic west, both military and economic, is vital to the survival of the revolution.

That having been said, the Republic is decidedly cool on the thought of sending soldiers to south-east Asia or even condemning Drapol as strongly as Walmington and other partners would probably like. At this point, the Shield has enough enemies and Bradsworth isn't keen to burn any bridges that aren't already toast.

The young republic is also, on a somewhat tangential point, absolutely desperate for capital. It is attempting to crash-modernize the country's infrastructure that was so long neglected under the Grand Empire. This means water treatment plants and waste-water facilities, modern and uniform railroad tracks, mass housing, a national highway system, transit pipelines, power plants, buildup of the military-industrial complex, a telecommunications network, more hospitals and fire stations and schools, and proper fertilization and irrigation techniques. This will cost...a lot more money than the Republic can readily afford, BUT it's also ready with favorable contracts for investors and lots of graphs with predicted future growth as a result of such infusions of cash, showing huge returns. There is a large pool of ready low-cost labor who are already producing gobloads of steel and concrete, so construction costs should be low. The humanitarian aspect will also be played up -- for every doe-eyed Drapoel on Chrinthani television, I'm sure there'll be a polio-riddled Shieldian orphan leaning bravely on his crude crutches while just his bottom lip trembles ever so slightly showing up on Nibelung commercials.

[Chrinthania]

WE talked, Ian. So you know where I stand on that. Chrinthania (and some willing corporations) are willing to invest in the GFR!

[Chrinthania]

Landmass? Not so much the problem. Size of the population/geography? Somewhat of a problem, but not exactly. The nation itself? Problem.

I should face facts. Since arriving in AMW, I have floundered on claims. I've a basic idea which has jumped around with me, but, for some reason, I've never been able to get it down. I'm fraught with concern over minor details and leaving the big picture blank. I'm not even sure what I want the nation to be. I think, to a point, LRR/TCB might be able to sympathize a little. The goal here is to play a nation you like, that you can work with, and enjoy. I've come to the real idea that I have just been stirring the ashes for a while. It hasn't mattered where the claim has been, I've jumped around, expanded, revamped, rebooted, and rewritten things time and time again.. more so than any of you know. Most of it never seeing the light of day.

AMW is a great place, and a group of people that I love and respect. It's a group that I wish to continue to be a part of, yet somehow I think it unfair to be so wishy-washy all the time. Never 100% sure of what I want, or where it should be, or how it should be. It is by far not a group from which I wish to resign, but it is a group where I believe I should put my best foot forward. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to impress (even though I wouldn't mind doing that ) but I should at least settle myself to a point that no one has to worry whether or not I'm going to go on another tangent about history, or location, or writers block, or whatever.

Here lately I have felt that Chrinthania is the problem. The nation itself. It was cool to be in Australia in AMW, and the US in AMW, and in the British Isles, but none of it has felt quite right. Perhaps I have allowed too much of the RL nation bleed into it. That's how I feel anyway. It's not original enough for my taste. So, it is with a sad heart, that I think it's finally time I dropped Chrinthania/Chrinthanium as a claim in AMW and worked on coming up with one that I like. Something a tad more original, but based off of the already-established history in AMW. Even just typing those words makes me feel a lot better. It is just not working for me no matter how I organize it. So I've got to do something new in AMW. An AMWer soul search, I suppose.

So it's back to the drawing board. No more Nate, no more Taylor, no more impetuous decisions about this and that. Though, I may just keep the surfers in some form. I've grown quite attached to them. I've already started getting something formulated in my head, but before I finally put it down in the applications thread, I want to research it and figure out how best it can work for what I want. Doesn't matter where, or what resources it has. Someone has to be a net importer, someone has to be a net exporter. Someone has to be poor, someone has to be rich. None of that is as important as getting something that is mine built and working the way I like it. It's completely unfair to myself and the group to do otherwise. Maybe, in the end, I could go back to some form of Chrinthania/Chrinthanium (but with a much easier to pronounce name).

So, now that I've settled my mind a bit, time to start reading.... and working cause it's time for me to work also.

[The Crooked Beat]

Given how AMW is, at its root, really about doing something fun and mentally engaging, when matters arrive at a point where playing a particular nation becomes a chore, there's certainly every reason to look into alternatives. And as one of AMW's most indecisive participants, I can certainly understand the feeling of a nation not working as it maybe ought to. By all means, it's always best to find something that seems logical and worthwhile, though, before making any major changes, it would probably be a good idea to speak with Walmington, Amerique, and other nations that stand to be most affected. (If of course you haven't done so already).

[Cassanos]

I'd have said pretty much what LRR did, only less eloquent and with a bad joke thrown in .
Chrin, I'm happy to hear you want to stay with us, and of course, whatever you think feels right is perfectly alright for me. I'd be happy to have your future nation as an ally, an enemy or whatever else we can come up with.

[Chrinthania]

I believe that I haven't mentioned (at least publicly) about any intentions on moving the claim itself, but it is definitely a possibility. I'm still in the brainstorming phase of this. Trying to decide what I want and how best to put it together. I'd love to have this all figured out right about now, but one thing is crystal clear, the sense of calm I have about it. So I'm on the right track. Where ever I end up, with whatever I create, understand that I will always think about allying with WoS and/or Nibelunc. Unless, that is, I become a maverick and go rogue. A totally Sarah Palin moment, but, eh, it works.

[The Amyclae]

Now that Areopagitican is humbler, and whose leadership cannot be properly considered a member of the apotheosis club, there could be more of a lean towards these wishy-washy enlightenment ideals. Enhancing the world through proactive international coalitions, if nothing else, could be a good front for shoring shrinking Christendom. Previously, I think we all know that Areopagitican would view the Parliament of Nations suspiciously—rightly, as it has turned out. There would be little help from the Exarchate (a title, now, more significant in the breach) and more than one veiled allusion to heretical (bestial?) comingling. I doubt that whomever the Parliament of Nations decided to intervene in was a friend of Areopagitican anyhow, so I would think the oil and ports would remain open to the travails of commerce.

In this new, toothless Areopagitican I would wager that any ‘opening of the windows’ would be met with an equally powerful drift away from any international organization that contains Walmington and Nibelunc in its membership. I assume Cass went ahead and dropped that tactical nuke on my poor head, after some sort of chemical attack was launched at Walmington some undetermined time before the big nuclear ka-boom. There’s not a lot of love there. Well, some love because I think even the most pious Areo-nun would tremble around the legs after seeing Cass’s hirsute visage.

That’s really all I have…? If I have any complaints about anything I’ll let you all know.

[Dra-pol]

...in which I talk more about the last Drapoel war to amuse myself while working on an over-due IC post, and address a few points from the earlier discussion a page or so back.

Broadly speaking, what happened at M'ko was a symptom of Hotan's forces being too successful for their own good. After effectively circumventing the PoN's strongest defences at the old border ((across the north of Rakhaing, Bago, Kayin, and Kayah regions of Burma)) and trapping the best western forces (except those in the English and French concessions on the coast), they were able to surge south faster than their logistical systems could cope with (plus the convoy route supporting the right flank was bombed heavily, presumably by aircraft flying out of the English concession at Ide'tou [Sittwe]).

The Communists reached M'ko before having secured cities further north, such as Ide'tou and Khiem'ko [Yangon], and arrived with mostly light forces and limited supplies, so set about booby-trapping the city, dispersing snipers, and preparing 'sleepers' throughout the city.

The Nationalist junta, fearing it was losing credibility as thousands of troops either deserted in fear of Communist reprisals or defected to what appeared to be the winning side, launched a counter-attack out of Khiem'ko with its strongest remaining forces, against the wishes of the English who were not prepared to support such a large, risky operation without having properly consolidated their remaining positions or shipped in reinforcements from the Empire. Despite going without English support, the Nationalists retook Ke'to [Bago] 50 miles north of the capital. This forced the Communists to pull back from M'ko, realising they'd over-reached themselves and might be cut-off.

Because most Nationalist forces had either disintegrated or were concentrated on Ke'to, and the English were reinforcing Ide'tou, it may well have been down to the Emesans to retake the apparently abandoned city of M'ko, presumably along with a handful of Nationalist representatives. They then walked into something of a sniper's alley, and an urban jungle of mines and snare-guns et cetera, not to mention Red Bamboo suicide commandos mixed into the terrified and shell-shocked population (so, yes, AMW's equivalent to the Pulitzer-winning photo probably happened at this point in M'ko, in the early 1980s). Certainly they at least nominally take control of the place, but people continue to die on a daily basis, even though, as it turns out, there aren't more than a couple of hundred Communists left in the city.

While the Emesans and local Nationalists were clearing M'ko, the main Nationalist counter-attack to the north-west collapsed due to lack of committed PoN support and the return of battle-hardened Communists from the Devil's Neck, effectively squandering resources that could have been used to defend Khiem'ko (essentially it was always a desperate Watch on the Rhine sort of operation bound to fail eventually), and Hotan's forces marched into the nationalist capital, leading to a renewed wave of panic and the further decline of Drapoel National Army morale.

So the Emesans had barely finished mopping-up in M'ko when the Unified People's Army came back, this time in greater strength. I assume the Emesans would want to hold the line there, and not allow the Communists to get behind them, south of M'ko, as then they'd be heading down the peninsula towards Emesa itself, with only one significant Nationalist city between the UPA and the Marcian Line. Also, M'ko is the biggest Drapoel port city in the region, the last one of significance to which the Walmingtonians could deliver supplies without having to go right around the Emesan peninsula.

For that reason, I don't think M'ko would be a candidate for primarily aerial supply. Probably the defenders would be resupplied from the sea by the Royal Merchant Marine until the port fell, at which point the principle order of business would be to run, really, really fast, to the next defensible position to the south, and eventually to M'aek.

1st Battle of M'ko: Early in the war, probably even in 1980; People's Army vanguard enters a poorly-defended city in panic, unprepared to find itself on the front line. Minimal fighting, mostly Nationalist police and perhaps a few Emesan liaison personnel being over-run by semi-elite light infantry.
Easy Communist victory achieved in a couple of days.
Purge of prominent anti-Communists, 'collaborators' follows.

2nd Battle of M'ko: Not more than a few months later; most Communists withdraw to take part in 2nd Battle of Ke'to, leaving behind snipers, booby-traps, and suicide-commandos to extract price in blood from substantial in-coming Emesan relief force.
Inevitable but costly Emesan-lead PoN victory achieved over several weeks as Emesan military learns house-to-house fighting the hard way.
Witch-hunt for Red Bamboo/fifth-columnists follows.

3rd Battle of M'ko: Begins not more than a few months later; large Communist force returns to engage Emesan defenders and what few Nationalist troops have managed to fall back and regroup in the city; WoS provides significant material support via the Port of M'ko, tackles Communist PT boats and fast assault craft operating off-shore, and provides naval gunnery and carrier air support.
Eventual Communist victory achieved after ((days/weeks/months?)) of very heavy fighting, many thousands of casualties on both sides.
City of M'ko largely flattened in battle, Communists advance south towards M'aek, Emesa; city remains in Communist hands to present day.

Battle of M'aek: begins not long after 3rd Battle of M'ko, but drags on in some form for the rest of the war ((years later)); Communists attempt to capture last major Drapoel city west of the central highlands that still divide Drapol today; preferring to see the war fought on Drapoel soil rather than amidst the Marcian Line, Emesa leads defence as Nationalists largely resigned to losing western territory, Emesans have to lobby hard to retain significant Walmingtonian material support, which they largely achieve.
Initial Communist assault in either late 1980 or in 1981 successfully resisted by Emesans who knock out dozens of pieces of armour on a narrow front; battle degenerates into positional war characterised by artillery duels, tunnel/counter-tunnel warfare, and increasingly by aerial combat between Emesan strike aircraft and emerging PAAF fighter arm, and (after the initial engagement) the rate of casualties declines to thousands per year rather than per week as was the case in the 3rd Battle of M'ko
Communists renew offensive in 1988 ((sometimes called 2nd Battle of M'aek, though fighting had never really stopped)), taking the city before RN nuclear strike halts them at the periphery of the Marcian Line.

Probably around the time of the (1st) Battle of M'aek, the Battle of the Three Pagodas Pass happens to the north as Red Bamboo guerrillas attempt to seize the strategic corridor into eastern Drapol ((what is now the NRD)), and are met by a primarily Avargan unit. Replacing the Battle of Andong in the old canon ((I wonder how many years ago we RPed that!)), discussions have styled this everything from a Camerone for the Avargans to a Gloster Hill. Most of the defenders are killed, but the momentum of the Communist attack is sapped, allowing the Royal Artillery to zero on the pass and prevent any further breakthrough to the east.

[Nova Gaul]

Some thoughts on the Asian War...(btw, I wonder what the whole series on conflicts in Dra-pol is called, or is each epoch labelled a different conflict??

Excellent as usual WoS, I concur totally with everything you’ve written. Re the Third Battle of M’ko, I would suggest months. With wars in imaginary history, bigger is better.

But, of course, there is just one thing I’d like to ask: In this history you’ve retconned can you give Emesa a Dien Bien Phu type battle in, say, 1981?

My vision would be for the Emesans to have attempted a massive, knock out blow to end, or at least to be publicly victorious against, the CPRD ‘centerpoint’. The Walmingtonians had a go of trying to crush to communists, then the Nationalists had their turn, and eventually the Parliament was convened to control the situation. Eventually, it would be the Emesan turn to try. I imagine using a mix of modern, near modern, and perhaps even Great War surplus aircraft (in 1980!). Over the course of a few weeks the EAF attempted to insert a division of paratroops deep behind enemy lines out past M’ko, in a favorable position—say some rugged foot hills near transportation lines or some such. The plan would be to outflank the siege and perhaps stop the Reds’ momentum. They would be supplied and supported by air (particularly the Huey). How about Operation Daylight?

Of course it’s an old story: the Emesans took the high ground and were overconfident, the Drapoel took the higher ground (mountains that the Emesans dismissed any chance of a force surmounting) and besieged the Emesans, and were victorious. Probably at this point Emesa lobbied Walmington to use the bomb on the communists, but were of course unsuccessful. The resulting losses in men and materiel at ? (your choice of battle name) meant the Emesans were unable to continue holding out at M’ko, and were forced to retreat on both fronts; the division that was decimated at ? was probably the 1st Imperial Infantry, probably the crème de la crème of the EAF at the time.

Anyway, just a thought, but I like the intensity of the hell that was M’ko (raging for months) mixed with an equally ferocious battle in the surrounding country at ? (which probably raged a few weeks longer that, as holding action which is probably one of the finest and most honorable moments in Emesan military history).

[Chrinthania]

So now I sit here, fleshing out the timeline of my history, and wonder what everyone needs from the Roman Empire prior to 475 AD. I want to make sure your established history doesn't find itself needing tweaks when, in reality, tweaking it from my side will be much easier. The under-construction factbook is started, and the OP is up and running along with the Timeline of History up to 494 AD. That history is borrowed from Nova Gaul, from the time of our reboot, and I want to make sure it's fine the way it is before I go too much in detail about the time after 494. I'll be working on tweaking the wording to fit my style over the new few days and completing the timeline by this weekend, I hope.

Something else playing on my mind and, more or less, solidified by chatting today, is the probability of not abadoning Rome as the capital of the Empire. Why go through the trouble to reconquer it, only to abandon it later? Also, as Beddgelert pointed out, it could be construed as a sign of weakness to move it from Rome. It's a much better middle finger to the Celts to keep the capital in Rome. Luckily, for this game, the name can be changed back to Western Roman Empire, or as we think, Roman Empire (the Eastern brother being considered a pretender to the Roman Empire).

[Kavoso]

Hey,

I am hoping to return to the group shortly, but I was wondering how I would go about applying again. Any details would be fantastic.

[Iansisle]

Second verse is pretty much same as the first. Throw an app up on the relevant thread, the community will review it, and we'll go from there.

[Kavoso]

Would it be appropriate to use the application I used before? That way I will be able to save what little information I have in my Factbook on the Forums.

[Iansisle]

Oh, yes, if the land is still available, that would be perfectly acceptable.

[Chrinthania]

As the guy keeping up with the cartographic portion of AMW, I humbly request that any and all changes be placed in the applications thread for ease of locating. Having to sort through the AMW App Thread, this thread, the Offsite, and hear about IRC chats and TG suggestions that never get told to me till weeks, or months, later is getting ridiculous. Every day someone tells me something new I didn't catch because it's scattered. Thanks in advance.

[Chrinthania]

Okay,

So I've been thinking (which, we all know, is never a good thing). AMW doesn't attract a lot of people to it these days. Perhaps that's not necessarily a bad thing, but, and I speak only for myself here, it leaves little in the way of RP opportunity. We need to do something to get more people into AMW. To that extent, I thought about the process I went through when becoming a member. I remember having to post my application, expand on it (as it wasn't very good IIRC), and then was left to sit around and wait until no real objections were offered. Then, I believe, I waited like a week or two before I could post on the offsite (even though I could see it all clearly after signing up).

I think one of our biggest issues is the lack of a clear, concise process by which applications are approved. Yes, I believe people should have a say, but, how long are we to leave people in limbo before they realize they're accepted? Or, if a quick response by the group as a whole is offered, how long are we going to dissect their application until we're all "comfortable" with what's been presented to let them into our ranks? I've noticed, as I am sure you have, some people simply stop paying attention--basically giving up because they were left to wait too long until they got a favorable response.

Now some of you may think that their reluctance to wait is a sign they weren't right for AMW, but I don't think that is always the case. Sometimes people have come here thinking this is a great group only to realize our utter lack of a cohesive approval process is frustrating. Some of these potential members moved on to other locations and are assets to the communities in which they now live. And I hear you when you say that our membership is small, thus we can wait till everyone chimes in. Yet, how many other groups require the whole of the membership to grant approval or--as is often the case in AMW--wait for people to not offer objection? Speaking for myself, I may also be inclined to not object to an application that others seem to like. Why? Because what if my objection caused a potential asset to our community caused them to be rejected, sending them into the arms of another RP group? Shaky argument, but it is still a valid one.

What I propose is the creation of a Membership Committee. We all trust each others judgement, right? We all strive for the same thing here, right? So why not make the process simple. It can be one person, or a few people. Whatever the group thinks is best (I'm of the opinion that 3 would be a good idea). And, if we agree to this, it can be done by an election process. It's all really simple in the end. The Membership Committee would be in charge of: 1) granting approval 2) maintenance of the application thread 3) assisting new players in becoming a part of the world we've all created. We even have an Application Puppet which could be used to give a potential member a fast response in a seemingly official capacity.

However, the process of accepting or rejecting applications is only part of our worry. We talked about my next idea ad nauseum before, but I think it is worth readdressing. We removed the map from the application thread because we didn't want people coming in and seeing that, say, Australia is free, so they want to play Australia. Quite honestly, it is a valid argument, but one that is prohibitive for potential members. Yet, considering how we work, a map is vital. Why? Because, if we're going to tell someone that their entire claim has a population congruent with the RL population of the area claimed, and their geography and natural resources are also tied to the same, how are they going to decide where to go? Certainly we can, with ease, explain to someone that claiming Japan just to play Japan is frowned upon (which I think is, to an extent, covered in the OP). Even with a map present in the app thread, we can direct potential members to areas in which their claim may fit better with the history we've created in AMW. It's just something to show them what is and what isn't available. We also have to realize that a map is a good idea for the few who do not take advantage of our offsite forum.

So, speaking of the app thread, the OP is rather lengthy. Yes, it's very well written, but it looks designed to keep people out rather than entice them to apply. We can condense the OP into a set of rules written in simple terms. We can go with in-depth with explanations as needed, but I think most people will catch on to the list of rules easier than the novella we have in place at the moment. It may not even be that the information in the OP needs to be consolidated, but we need to do something about the lead-in paragraph at the very least. Something catchy, something that grabs the readers attention, something that makes them want to be a part of this group even if there are a lot of rules to live by.

Yet, how will they know we're around unless we advertise? We have to take the opportunity to advertise this great group to the masses. Certainly I do that. Just look at my signature. Something like that, done by every member, could help to advertise AMW without violating NS terms or causing a flood of people that are just in it to win it. Still, adding a link in a signature isn't enough. We have to get RPs up and going. RPs that people read (trust me, they're out there reading them). AMW is slow-paced RP group. That's not a bad thing, but it doesn't get our name out there. Not when there are RP competitions between other regions (as they do in International Incidents) which get names out there and membership growing. We have to show them that this is where they want to be and we can, in the best way, do it by the very strength of our members putting out RPs. Doesn't matter if it's a war RP, a diplomatic RP, or a character RP (gasp! did he just say Character RP?!?). The more RPs we have going, the more people will see our group. The more people that see our group means the better the chances one of them will actually apply. And who knows, they could be the next Spyr or Iansisle!

Of course, we can only get more RPs if we get more members. And we're back at square one.

I would also like to address our "comfort zone" for claim sizes (which seems to be roughly 140-150 million people with an exception for highly-populated Asia). But, that's another post for another time. I doubt any of what I said will get any approval, but I've wanted to say it for a while, and now I have.

[Jatriqya and Hoya]

I fully agree with Chrin, I do think that the application process needs to be changed and Chrin's proposals do seem good to try out.

[The Amyclae]

l like it, and I feel that if anyone would be against the creation.... We need Ferkas' opinion.

[Ferkas]

I object!




With that out of the way, I continue to object, but really have no issues with the idea.

[Dra-pol]

Well, you have a point about the smallness of the current membership, at least, and it's probably right that we should make some little changes to encourage more interest.

For starters, I've finally realised that the first post in this thread still linked to a long-dead recruitment thread, so I've updated that (and hopefully will remember to do the same if and when we get a new recruitment thread).

Maybe we should ask that members follow Chrin's example (I know that some already do the same) re. links in signature. Probably not on a compulsory basis, since we don't want to create any more reasons not to join.

I'm not sure about the recruitment OP generally. It does seem sort of wordy, but I'm not sure how much of it, if any, is really superfluous.

[Iansisle]

I personally won't be using a signature, I'm afraid, as I personally don't think they're dignified. I've gone almost ten years without having one and I don't intend to break the streak now. However, as a voluntary initiative, I certainly don't mind.

As for the rest of the suggestions, I agree it's about time we tried something different. I'm fresh out of ideas to offer, so I'll just back Chrin's.

Except for the signature thing. I don't swing that way. =P

[Chrinthania]

Well, obviously, the signature idea wasn't something that was intended to be mandatory for all members. It was just a suggestion of one thing we could do.

As far as the OP of the App Thread, superfluous it is not, wordy it is. I am going to take a stab at rewriting it in a more concise manner without becoming too ambiguous about what the group is and how everything works. Once I finish it, I'll post it here for everyone to read/critique. I may also, if rewriting it doesn't work, attempt to make it look more eye-catching by playing with the BBCodes for aesthetic value. Again, before it goes live, it'll be posted here.

[Jatriqya and Hoya]

I do have a question though - what would the Membership Committee consist of? Would it consist of a couple members, say three, that would discuss the application with each other before reaching a decision, or would it have to be 2 out of the 3 that are okay with the application and it would proceed? Would the Membership Committee change every 3/6/12 months?

[Walmington on Sea]

I think we'd still need to take into account the opinions of neighbours or players whose nations are likely to be tied in some way to the history/culture/economy/whatever of the applicant's state, of course, even if said neighbours aren't on any prospective membership committee.

[Jatriqya and Hoya]

I think we'd still need to take into account the opinions of neighbours or players whose nations are likely to be tied in some way to the history/culture/economy/whatever of the applicant's state, of course, even if said neighbours aren't on any prospective membership committee.

Perhaps the membership committee could be fluid? Neighbors as well as a few 'general' members that change every so often?