AMW Big Discussion Thread

[Chrinthania]

I'm certain we sell off our surplus equipment and, in particular, that which we do not use anymore. The funds probably assist, in a small part, with paying for new development. I will work this stuff out when I can get behind an actual computer.

[Cassanos]

Now, more stuff! As for the engines, I assume that JuMo and BMW continued their development of jet engines, which was complemented by MTU and SCNECMA to create today's Eurojet. So, it looks like there is enough expertise for engines.

Military aviation (fixed wing)

I like your timeline, LRR, though I would really prefer to keep the Typhoonas Nibelunc's prestige project, possible co-developed with Chrinthani corporations. This is in no small part due to OOC reasons, as I prefer the Eurofighter over the – nonetheless very good – Rafale design.

After the Great War, the Nibelung military was faced with the need to re-equip a large portion of its new-found forces in Cassanos, Bohaemia and, eventually, Suabinc.
Turboprop-driven aircraft were considered obsolete and largely relegated to support and close-air-support-roles, in which redesigns of the Ju-287 „Stuka“ and the Focke-Wulf Fw-190 were deployed until the late 1950s.

Abstaining from the use of large bombers in favour of ballistic missiles, the Luftwaffe of 1948 was first equipped with a mix of Me-262 heavy and He-162 light jet fighters, Ju-388 medium bombers
and FW-190 and Ju-287 CAS-platforms, as well as a small number of Bölkow-built utility helicopters. In the light of new Valendian and Gandvian designs, namely the Dassault Mystére and the VL-15, a new generation of fighter jets was planned, which culminated in the 1953 deployment of the Habech (goshawk), for which I'd like to take Saab's design of the J-32 Lansen.

While a capable aircraft, Nibelung military planners were not content with the comparably small payload the Habech could carry and cooperated with Dassault in the development of the Mirage III for fighter and strike purposes, which was deployed with the Luftwaffe in 1957, where it replaced older turboprop designs.

The Luftwaffe maintained a mix of Habech fighters and Mirage light fighter-bombers as well as the yet-to-be-renamed P.1121 as a medium fighter-bomber well into the 1960, with the Habech being retired in 1972 and the Mirages in 1978, replaced by the Jaguar and Mirage F-1, respectively.
In the early 1970s, the PZL I-22 (good call, WoS!) was introduced as an advanced trainer and light ground attack aircraft, while a P.1121-based fighter design continued to serve until 2008.

Valendia and Nibelunc then embarked on designing new 4th generation combat aircraft, which culminated in the joint Tornado/Craha and the Mirage 2000 and LFA 80 Falcho, respectively. Delays in the development of the Craha led to the purchase of a small number of Virginian F-19s, which continue to serve as the Hraban medium bomber.

In the late 1980s, Nibelunc and Valendia began developing a new generation of multirole aircraft, which, while sharing many design features, split into today's Arnan and Rafale fighters, with Nibelunc also collaorating with the Chrinthanian Northrop corporation in building a dedicated heavy CAS aircraft, the Nibelung Gire[. Avarga may join in wherever you please, LRR, as with the LFA-80.

See the image below for a rough timeline and evidence of my lack of design skills:

Military aviation (rotary wing)

First helicopters were designed and built by Focke during the Great War for reconnaissance purposes and served into the 1950. In 1954/55, a large number of light Dassault-Focke Alouette II recon and Walmingtonian Royal Bankfield H-34 were purchased to equip the Heeresflieger (army aviation) and Luftwaffe, with Royal Bankfield S-61s joining the Bundesmarine for ASW-purposes in 1960.

In the late 1960s and early 1970s, the Alouette II fleet was complemented and slowly replaced by light Bölkow Bo-105s, with the H-34 giving way to the Royal Bankfield S-80/CH-53. The new Eurocopter consortium entered the stage with the lighter transport and utility helicopter SA-365 Dauphin. Deliveries of these new systems continued until the mid-1980s.

In the 1980s, the Nibelung military establishment began evaluating a new combat helicopter project. While the Bo-105 had been equipped with 20mm-autocannons and ATGMs in the early 1970s, it was not designed for true battlefield missions as it lacked protection.
Thus, Bölkow embarked on a cooperation with the Chrinthani Hughes corporation in designing a new helicopter gunship along the lines of the Walmingtonian S-67. This culminated in the gunship which is called the AH-64 Apache in Chrinthani service. The first of about 270 Nibelung AH-64s were delivered in 1991.

In naval service, the S-61s are only now being replaced with NH-90s in the ASW-role, while SAR is conducted by the Eurocopter SA-365N.

[Amerique]

If we'd like to kick-start the build-up to the Second Drapoel War, so to speak, we could always branch off of my last post in Something's New Under the Sun and the Emesan arms build-up in that thread. Alternatively, we could start a new one. Either way, I am excited by this turn of events.

[Nova Gaul]

Just to clarify things friends I think that given the Emesan retcon, we can say that everything in "Something New Under the Sun" is pretty much non-canon, if you will.

As I put on the offsite, I imagine Emesa modernized at the latest by 1900, given increased contact with Walmington. I don't think there would be an Emesan arms build-up per se either, as by 2012 I imagine Emesa has an equivalent military to RL Malaysia (small but well armed and highly maneuverable), with the proviso that it uses Walmingtonian (by and large) ships and aircraft.

Long story short, Emesa, while being the same population-wise and geographically, has gone from being a backwards pagan Roman successor state to a backwards pagan Roman successor state that developed a cargo cult affinity for all things English in C 19th, including joint-stock companies, Godfreyism, tea, and horse racing (which, conveniently, is what the old hippodromes could be used for now!)

[Amerique]

Shall I then just modify that old post and use it to start a new thread for all things Drapol?

[Nova Gaul]

From your keyboard to God's eyes, sir.

Oh, and I asked this before, but, since I am keeping the Emesan military exactly similar to the Malaysian military IRL (excepting Walmingtonian equipment, of course) I am, I think, just going to post a link to the Malaysian military wiki. ALthough a bit lazy, I don't think it is bad RP. If there are any objections, please let me know.

[Nova Gaul]

Hey all. So, to be proper, I am writing up a new Emesa factbook for the military (mainly a transcribed copy of the RL Malaysian/Singapore military, but with some AMW twists).

My question is that, given the conversation a few pages back about limiting tech. in AMW, do we in fact have UAVs in AMW?

[The Crooked Beat]

Some very interesting developments all around! I'm a big fan of the Buccaneer, and it would be great to have one in AMW, though I'm not sure as to whether Avarga would have been a customer. Any thoughts on what this aircraft might be called in AMW? Corsair? Freebooter? Brigand?

Lately I've been using BAe's P.106 concept to illustrate the Nibelung/Avargan LFA-80, so, er, there may be a slight conflict there potentially, but seeing as the Gripen is presently covered by Gandvik, that might provide a convenient solution. And Walmington would of course have been welcome to join that particular program. Maybe a bit heavier than what would be considered strictly ideal, but designed along Swedish principles with emphasis on short-field performance, ease of maintenance, and quick turnaround time between sorties.

The Fairey Delta II offers plenty of room for development too, if the RL Mirage III is any indication. Cheetah-C-like modifications could play a major part in providing Emesa and the NRD with a defense against North Dra-pol's air force.

Most of Saab's catalog is free for the taking, so there's no problem with Nibelunc appropriating the J-32. For the record, Gandvik will probably be retaining the FFVS J-22, Saab B-17 and B-18, but all other designs should be open for the community to divide-up as seems appropriate.

More Aviation Discussions:

As for projects involving Avarga at an engineering/design level, UHAA would certainly have wanted to join SEPECAT, since the Jaguar, with its ability to operate from minimally-prepared airstrips and maintenance-friendly nature, coupled with a formidable weapons payload and supersonic performance, is ideally-suited to Avargan requirements as they would have appeared at that point in time. The Jaguar might have been seen as a replacement for UHAA S.15s, basically Vickers-Supermarine 545s which, like their Super Sabre and Mystere equivalents, probably found themselves operating in ground-attack capacities after about 1960 or so.

The P.1121 project would also have attracted heavy Avargan interest. Maybe this could possibly set the stage for substantial cooperation between Nibelung and Avargan aerospace companies? This aircraft might even have been sought as a nuclear strike platform for when Avarga was still planning to develop an independent deterrent. Its multi-role capabilities may have been very competitive when first introduced as well. There also seems to be room enough on the P.1121 prototype for a big radar and plenty of advanced fire-control electronics. Assuming rough equivalency with the F-4 Phantom, payload would presumably be somewhere around 8,000kg/18,000lbs, though instead of a twin-engine layout a single very powerful turbojet or turbofan, something along the lines of the Rolls-Royce Conway or Bristol-Siddeley Olympus, perhaps built by MTU, would be called-for. I wonder if, in AMW, we shouldn't scrap the RL P.1121's retractable rocket packs, seeing as this isn't a feature that made it aboard many other contemporary aircraft and might take-up too much weight and space. As for variants, how about single-seaters for the first few major production batches, switching to twin-seat models later on as weapons and sensors become more complicated? Camera-equipped reconnaissance and specialized SEAD versions might be warranted as well. I'll probably designate P.1121s operated by Avarga's air force as S.17s.

I'm having a lot of trouble deciding what exactly Avarga needs in terms of its second combat aircraft. Ulusal Havacilik's participation in the Arnan/Eurofighter program is attractive indeed, but the Avargan Air Force, which can't really afford to operate more than two major types at once, and already has a pretty adequate air defense platform in the LFA-80, probably doesn't plan on buying any. A ground attacker seems like it would be useful to have available, and while the Craha/Tornado would be ideal, of course for a wide range of missions, especially long-range anti-shipping, the Gire might have been Avarga's choice. Military planners might have decided to concentrate on improving airborne anti-tank and close air support capabilities in preference to interdiction, possibly judging that, on its own, the Avargan AF probably stood little chance of making a serious impression on heavily-defended targets behind enemy lines. The Gire's (presumably) lower operating costs relative to a multi-engine supersonic jet, and more modest maintenance requirements, might even permit Avarga to support a fleet of 40-50 machines on top of its LFA-80s. Then again, they'd be very vulnerable to enemy fighters, especially as Avargan planning would not be based on assumptions of friendly air superiority.

A difficult decision! Maybe the Arnan is the best option after all...

I've made some charts, copying Cass's methods, to better illustrate Avarga's aeronautical history:





What fighter Avarga used during the Great War, admittedly, isn't a very important topic, but, being concerned with these things, I am eager to answer that question. In response to Walmington's suggestions, the main obstacle to Avarga adopting the MB.3 or MB.5 would be their massive 24-cylinder engines. Local manufacturing on license seems prohibitively difficult and resource-intensive given the generally overtaxed nature of Avargan industry during the Great War, and UHAA would not want to have to compete with Walmingtonian demands for a limited number of powerplants. Otherwise, they'd be a logical choice. I've definitely considered the J-22, but I think Avarga might already have pirated too much from Sweden, and a more original solution would be ideal. All things considered, the re-engined Fw 190 option is looking pretty good, since I have Avarga down as also operating a Mosquito-like fast bomber/heavy fighter powered by English Leland in-line engines at about that time, and license-built Stockley & Wychwood radials might have been in more abundant supply with F.4 production wrapped-up. Hopefully that makes some sense.

Regarding UAVs, I don't think anyone's ever moved to ban them, and for good reason, but without a USA to pioneer efforts in that field the upper limit in terms of capabilities is probably a great deal lower than in RL. Nobody's going to be bothered, I think, over a couple dozen or so reconnaissance drones along Predator lines or, in the case of our more advanced economies, even larger numbers of smaller UAVs for short-range observation, but any nation claiming to possess a decent-sized fleet of armed unmanned aircraft would probably have to do some explaining. But that's just my take on the matter, and where Emesa is concerned, that doesn't count for all that much.

[Nova Gaul]

Thanks for your thoughts on UAVs, TCB. I don't imagine Emesa has many, but given that Singapore and Malaysia have a few IRL, I was thinking a few 'primitive' models would be a sound addition. Also, as an aside, I have decided to, as IRL, give Emesa (Malaysia and Singapore) a small but essentially modern airforce, sans Hueys. It's all on the offsite, and if anyone (Chrin, Cass, WoS, etc.) object to me using the equipment I've listed please just let me know and I'll swap it out.

That said, given Emesa's retcon made "Something New Under the Sun" fairly obsolete, and given the speculation of Dra-pol in the news thread, I've launched a new thread for Emesa in SE Asia: Seeing Red.

Please feel free to get involved and kick off an awesome RP!

[Cassanos]

As for UAVs, just for the record, I'd like to note that the German-Canadian CL-(2)289 was in service during the 1980s and LUNA as a follow-on project as well as KZO for the artillery have been developed in the late 90s. Since that was before the whole world turned crazy for U(C)AVs, I'd like to keep those for their traditional roles - short-range stealthy reconnaissance and artillery guidance. Some may have been upgraded with laser illuminators for bomb-guidance.
I will not, however, use the EuroHawk or any Predator-offshoot.

/EDIT: @LRR sure, Avarga could buy into the Gire programme - however, it's a highly specialized aircraft. Would Avarga perhaps prefer a larger number of I-22 Alpha-Jet-lookalikes for CAS?

[The Crooked Beat]

Indeed, personally, I don't see any problem with that sort of thing. I've put down Avarga as using some of those same drones, and no doubt Gandvik has some UAVs puttering around somewhere as well. It's UCAVs that really start to pose problems.

As for the Gire, well, I'm thinking that it might not be the best idea after all. Avarga would certainly have wanted it for a rather specialized purpose, namely helping to counteract Aeropagitician's massive park of Abrams tanks, but Brimstone-carrying Arnans would probably do just as well on that front, and be able to operate without an escort in contested skies.

[Nova Gaul]

Going along with the reconnaissance-drone theme I am going to claim Emesa utilizes Singapore's Elbit Systems Hermes 450 drone fleet, older and strictly recon oriented. Probably they designed it as a safe, at least safer, way to monitor Drapoel activity. And I also believe, since we are on this general topic, that Emesa too utilizes the Tomahawk cruise missile - though whether bought from the Walmies or Chrin (if approved) I don't know yet. Of course, all of Emesa's models would be equipped with conventional payloads. Again, if amenable, I would say that the cruise missiles are produced in Emesa...again if Chrin and WoS would be amenable. Thinking things over, sustained cruise missile strikes against Drapoel bridges, factories, and communication centers might have replaced previous Emesan bomber strategies.

And I would also politely invite you two gentlemen - Cass & TCB - to please chime in on Seeing Red, and everyone else too!

[Beddgelert]

I know that WoS has Tomahawk under another name (being Raytheon-made), but I'll let you track that down yourself... I'd actually be a little surprised if they let you build them yourself, since it'd possibly necessitate a lot of assistance to get you started, eat away at their export earnings, encourage you to start trouble into which they'd be dragged, and increase the risk of the Drapoel getting their hands on the facilities or committing espionage against them. Not many nations can build really advanced cruise missiles. It's pretty much the USA, USSR/Russia, PRC thanks to ripping-off the USSR, joint European efforts, and only in the last couple of years a few other nations that have developed anything particularly sophisticated and accurate at hundreds of miles range, unless I'm much mistaken. I'd think you'd have to import them from WoS or build something simpler. (On that note, P-15 Termit- Gandvian? Okay if I keep building a Geletian knock-off of it in the manner of Silkworm?)

On UAVs, by contrast, aye, even Beddgelert has (since the 1990s) a number of UAVs, all small, unarmed reconnaissance, observation, and targeting types (though one of them does have payload capability enough that it could in theory carry a just-about-useful explosive charge if we ever felt inclined to waste it as a crude sort of guided missile, I suppose). For Emesa, though, I'd suggest using Singaporean drones before poaching Israeli ones (unless Acadzia's back, making them, and selling them to Emesa?): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:U ... _Singapore though you probably also find it easy to import Canada's: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:U ... _of_Canada In your position I think I'd do both, for what it matters, import some Walmy ones and build some Singaporean ones.

Largely pointless post about Geletian aircraft coming up

[Nova Gaul]

Good points BG. I'll go ahead and claim that Singaporean-built drones are the models that Emesa uses, and will have to defer to WoS (and possibly Chrin?) about cruise missiles. I expect that any Tomahawk equivalent would indeed have to be imported from the Walmies - hopefully WoS will let me know the situation about that, and maybe WoS assistance in launching Emesan spy/military satellites - but I do think that given the spectre of Drapoel aggression/NRD collapse Emesa would have desperately tried to develop some kind of domestically produced cruise missile...maybe one that is a bit cheaper (any strategy against the Drapoel would need mass-produced quantities) and simpler than any Tomahawk equivalent.

EDIT: Maybe something like the Pakistani Babur or Brazilian AVMT-300?

Emesa (the new one) is a modern democracy, after all, with a modern economy, and I should hope they are able to produce something like a low-tech cruise missile. If such a thing exists. On another note, all this recent Anglophilia has inspired me to whip up a steak & mushroom pie for dinner - followed by a sumptuous pavlova for dessert. Don't you all wish you were coming over!

[Chrinthania]

Being virtually uneducated in what Chrinthania actually makes in terms of missiles, and not having the ability to do tons of research right now, I will defer the answer until later on.

Anyway, with me still laptopless, I'm probably no good for doing tons of things right now. As to your TG, NG, I'm probably safe in saying that my reply may not be what you're hoping for exactly. Still mulling it over.

[Beddgelert]

Geletia's aviation history is relatively unimportant to the rest of the world, as the majority of it is in-house and not really export-oriented, but since this is in fashion...

After the Great War, Celert immediately withdrew our oldest aircraft types and some of the newest (notably the Saeth Arian), while the wartime stalwart DAG-80/81 remained in service due to such large numbers existing, half being cannibalised to keep a smaller number flying through the 1950s, along side a few new Vindos V-4, and RMI-1 reconnaissance bombers, they being the first turboprop powered aircraft (the turboprop being a Hungarian/Durcodi invention) and a prestige project for the generally deflated Celts of the era.

Many light trainers, liaison and touring aircraft, sail planes, utility seaplanes, agricultural aircraft, aerobatic and competition planes, ultralights, and research aircraft were built in short runs, keeping the Geletian aviation industry alive, but few useful military designs appeared while Celert was trying to avoid upsetting the Aventines. The Geletians got back to working on jets (having been involved in pioneering research but given up on it as a distraction to existing prop-engine production during the war) with the DAG-451 and DAG-452, the former of which eventually served as a light attack aircraft against Druidic insurgents. Then, in the same role, we get the Lacha I-20 Spioróg (notably exported to Areopagitican).

I think that the Soko G-2 Galeb and Soko J-21 Jastreb, being so closely related, might work best as a collaboration between Tsalland and Geletia late in Celert's life, projects diverging when when party wanted a light-attack jet and the other wanted a jet trainer. Possibly Geletia was happy with its various COIN aircraft and wanted the trainer (thus the G-2 Galeb by some other name, probably Gwylan or Faoileán), and then in the early '70s Areopagitican got involved and ended up with the G-3 Galeb-3 combining some features of both aircraft (chiefly the Geletian, but with the more powerful engine) for a combined trainer and light-attack jet. Unless Max has better alternatives these days.

I think that after Llewellyn took the throne in 1968 (amidst particularly heavy Druidic insurgency), the Principality joined the Warbler (Gnat) crowd via the Shield, buying some Colt-II kits for local assembly during the 1970s and deploying them as Korrigan (name of a Geletian cryptid meaning 'little dwarf'), while importing some higher-performance VL J21 (MiG-21) from Gandvik. Most Geletian aircraft were still primarily for ground-attack against light infantry and rebel villages, but with Llewellyn trying to hold on to Macedon, thus gradually irritating Lapolis and Constantinople all the more, a supersonic interceptor began to seem like a good idea, hence the Gandvian purchase.

In '78 the DAG-93 Fwltur (alternately) fighter-bomber was probably supposed to be the first Geletian-designed-and-built supersonic aircraft, but internal sabotage of design efforts by disgruntled workers prevented that capability being achieved until after the Celtic Spring of '82.

I think that in the final days of the (greater) Principality, Llewellyn may have bought a single consignment of VL J23 (MiG-23) configured for ground-attack or VL A27 (MiG-27) and maybe only received one or two before being forced to retreat to the northeast without the new, unready machines. After the revolution, Beddgelert embarked upon a radically different defence strategy, fearing counter-revolution and multi-fronted invasion. The 'swarm fighter' aspect of the Gnat-alike and 'people's fighter' MiG-21-alike surely appealed more than the relatively complex MiG-23 or MiG-29 (for the latter of which, presumably under development at the time as VL J29, Llewellyn was probably a pencilled-in customer-to-be), because... if Llewellyn, Lapolis, Constantinople, and maybe Ianapalis all come down on Akink, we're going to need more planes!

So Beddgelert spent most of the 1980s reverse-engineering whatever Gandvik calls the Tumansky R-29 turbojet from the handful of J23s or A27s they had captured and developing sensor upgrades for their captured ('defected' is probably a better term) J21s. This eventually lead to the DAG-21 Sleeaneyr (MiG-21 Lancer) and our current front-line fighters, based upon the IAR-95 Spey project. I think I've finally figured out what to do there (the Romanians kept coming up with new ideas and never got around to, y'know, paying to make any of them a reality, so I'm spoiled for choice on slightly different versions of the same general design).

Two versions will exist, one two-seat with a single upright tail fin, a multi-role fighter and armed conversion-trainer; the other single-seat with twin fins with a focus on air-superiority (probably retaining significant multi-role capability, but viewed as less-than-optimal for surface attack), both powered by Geletian knock-offs of the R-29 turbojet. They could be the current Sino-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder except for the turbojet instead of turbofan powerplant, giving better high-speed performance but inferior cruise endurance (top speed Mach 1.9 for the Geletian aircraft against Mach 1.6 for the Sino-Pak). One will take the Caoineag name, and one the Fampir, but I haven't decided which way around, as yet.

[Nova Gaul]

No problem re the aircraft/helicopters Chrin - take your time, I'll adjust the Emesa factbook as needed.

EDIT: Does anyone have any idea where I could conjure up some helicopters (modern-ish) for Emesa? Amerique, I think, has Boeing? Should I go with an aging Huey fleet after all?

BTW, steak and mushroom pie - SUCCESS! There are few things the English do better than pie! Edit 2: That is, except when a Frenchman conquers the English recipe book! God bless the Two Fat Ladies!

[Beth Gellert]

I hate mushrooms and I don't eat cow

Erm, upsettingly, though, my favourite pie is a local one alternatively known as a, "Catholic pie" of all things (also a Friday pie, for the same reason, and, as I call it, a butter pie), because my neck of the woods is one of England's comparatively few Catholic strongholds, and so Friday would be a meat-free day, by tradition. In much of the country/world, that means fish instead, but here I suppose we took it more seriously and came up with a pie of crust, butter, potato, onion, and scanty seasonings in the form of a pinch of salt and same of pepper. I'd have long since starved to death without it.

Helicopter wise, again, WoS... Sikorsky seems to be confirmed as all theirs, with Mr.Sikorsky being less Ukrainian and more, well, Shieldian. Sea King, Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, that... flying crane one... about half of the famous western helicopters, probably. They can drown you in helicopters if you want them. And as the prior discussion went, Amerique's Hueys with Walmingtonian engines in them is another way to go.

Also, one thing we do better than pie is French women.

Ba-dum-tish!

(Naw, but seriously I sometimes miss Mathilde!)

[The Crooked Beat]

Looks good on the aviation front, BG! There's certainly enough local talent, and a large enough pool of RL designs, for you to be pretty well set, as of course you've shown. We'll have to try and work all of these aircraft discussions into a big history of the aerospace industry in AMW. It seems as though, the more I read, these what-if light fighter projects from the 1980s-1990s are practically crawling out of the woodwork. Apparently Switzerland was even in on it, and so was Spain.

Too distracted to respond productively regarding the progression of Beddgelert's post-war aircraft line, but your description of Gandvian involvement is absolutely fine. At the very least, Riga would have been delighted to find more export customers for its military-industrial products, and given how there's a few nations between Geletia and Gandvik itself, Llewellyn's principality would probably not have been treated as a potential rival for regional dominance.

I have to admit, Gandvik's missile armaments are still in a state of total confusion, but for all intents and purposes a P-15 Termit/Styx should be available in some form, though there's a chance that it might emerge looking more like the Rb 04 in practice.

Just a minor note, for ease of organization, I've decided to rationalize Gandvik's designation system, and get rid of the Swedish-style naming. Gandvian aircraft will now carry a manufacturer code and model number, for instance VL J21 becomes VL-21, which should also make converting things from RL Russian to Gandvian a bit simpler. There's no reason to go changing things up, but so everyone knows, that's how I'll be naming things for internal purposes at least.

On helicopters, to second BG's statements, Walmington should really have everything that Emesa would need, if perhaps not everything in the RL Malaysian and Singaporean militaries.

Regarding domestically-produced cruise missiles, well, it It could probably be done, but it might not be the most efficient use of available resources. Maybe Emesa would be better-off developing an anti-ship missile for use against Drapoel FACs and landing craft, something along Sea Skua lines?

[Nova Gaul]

My my BG -- starchy Catholic butter pies, vivacious French women, well, my opinion of you has gone up considerably.

Thanks for the tips on helicopters and cruise missiles BG & TCB. I will troll through what WoS has already come up with and what's already been said and will push on from there. An absolute minefield, this. I can venture to say that (as WoS) has said GW wouldn't sell Emesa new tech, so the Blackhawks are probably limited to VIP transport, with perhaps a squadron being set aside for special ops? I am thinking that I will indeed have an aging Huey fleet after all (Maybe the largest operational one in AMW, not that that's a good thing) and complimentarily large heliborne infantry force. And for the heavy lift and sea helicopters, hopefully WoS and I can work something out -- apologies if I am rehashing over over territory.

As for cruise missiles TCBs I think you are correct, given Drapoel's insanely large surface fleet, ASW weapons would be very sensible, more so given Emesa's total dependance on maritime trade. However, really really really want to have some domestic missilery, outdated though it may be. And to that end I propose that - with WoS's blessings over the past AMW in time decades - that the Empire of Emesa developed and maintains a number of intermediate range ballistic missilesalong the lines of the 1950s/60s era American/British PGM-17 Thor. Not able to carry a nuclear payload (WoS has pointed out the English didn't deign to let Emesa have 'the bomb') they would be conventionally armed, and probably pointed at a number of conspicuous Drapoel targets (major factory complexes, railroad yards, big bridges, etc.) in the event of a Suloist invasion. Hardly new tech., but perhaps enough to give even a nuclear CRPD second thoughts about a conventional invasion into Emesa. A deterrent, in other words, limited though it may be?

[Walmington on Sea]

It's true that there is reticence in Great Walmington over providing Emesa with the very latest technology, both from fear of Communist espionage and perhaps a desire to keep a lid on everybody else's power and influence. We want you strong, but not *too* strong :)

WoS probably wouldn't have helped you to develop ballistic missiles -or may have briefly co-operated under one administration only for the next to stop the project- and may have tried to discourage you, but it's not like we'd have tried to veto the programme or threaten you or anything. Similar to the WMD situation, we'd have been concerned about provoking Da'Khiem and about the prospect of Emesa acting unilaterally. Actually, it is conceivable that towards the end of English administration in Singapore* we may have been starting to launch sounding rockets into the upper atmosphere, and viewed near-equatorial Singapore as a good place to carry out sub-orbital and orbital launches, so maybe you did get a lot of early rocketry knowledge from that, and then embark on your own ballistic missile programme when we left. Maybe we should look into the British Rainbow Codes for some early ballistic missile and rocket projects.

If you like, NG, I could draw up some options for Emesan military equipment (replacing RL Malaysian items with AMW equivalents while trying to balance the things that WoS would sell you against alternatives you could buy from someone else) when I'm done working out how to divide Canada into English counties (because I enjoy that sort of thing, as you may have noticed)! One question- would the Emesan army be using the same ammunition as WoS, or going another way? Singapore produces a lot of small-arms, some of which are really rather high-end, but of course IRL they're all in NATO (read- American) calibres, which the Walmingtonians would scoff at as absolutely useless in bringing-down a fanatical Drapoel suicide-charge, so we'd have advised picking our more formidable .280" and .455" rounds, of course!

After a few sleeps I think that I may have been a little pessimistic over Emesan capabilities when I suggested a Gnat-derivative as the whole of your air force, but I still think it'd represent the core, a fixed-wing equivalent to the work-a-day Hueys of your rotary-wing force, while the minority of more advanced Blackhawks-or-otherwise should perhaps be mirrored by a more capable jet in one or more elite squadrons (perhaps defending the lion city).

*I know that we've only vaguely discussed it, but I've pencilled in the 99 year lease of the island being from 1860 to 1959. The intention would have been to build an English fort to command the strait with heavy cannon (probably Armstrong Guns), thus declaring, "We are not amused'" to French, Valendian, and Byzantine ambitions in the region, eventually leaving the Emesans with a developed town fit for the industrial age. What happened, presumably, was rather more than expected- a Walmingtonian Hong Kong, answer to Franco-America's Macau in Drapol (at Songac (Cheduba)).

By '59, my thinking is, the city would be modern enough to have that recognisable English influence, but would have been back in Emesan hands for 53 years by today. And I can see Mountbatten standing to attention while the Walmingtonian flag is lowered and all that palaver. Also, if we were there until that recently, you'd have been left with semi-useful defences designed to withstand bombardment by C20th artillery and bombs, and maybe with some 15" rifles pointed out to sea, plus a modern port and airport and all that.

[Cassanos]

As for cruise missiles TCBs I think you are correct, given Drapoel's insanely large surface fleet, ASW weapons would be very sensible, more so given Emesa's total dependance on maritime trade. However, really really really want to have some domestic missilery, outdated though it may be. And to that end I propose that - with WoS's blessings over the past AMW in time decades - that the Empire of Emesa developed and maintains a number of intermediate range ballistic missilesalong the lines of the 1950s/60s era American/British PGM-17 Thor. Not able to carry a nuclear payload (WoS has pointed out the English didn't deign to let Emesa have 'the bomb') they would be conventionally armed, and probably pointed at a number of conspicuous Drapoel targets (major factory complexes, railroad yards, big bridges, etc.) in the event of a Suloist invasion. Hardly new tech., but perhaps enough to give even a nuclear CRPD second thoughts about a conventional invasion into Emesa. A deterrent, in other words, limited though it may be?

If I may chime in with my unwarranted and indubitably flawed reasoning, I am not quite certain whether this (that is, especially IRBMs from the 1960s) is a reasonable use of money and resources. This is largely due to those missiles' high cost, high vulnerability and extremely low precision (with CEPs of between 1,000 and 2,000m). Built for carrying large nuclear warheads, they would not lend themselves to use as weapons against rather small targets such as bunkers or bridges.
Airfields or large industrial complexes are another matter, but would require large amounts of expensive missiles to actually destroy, with no guarantee of success. After all, hardened aircraft shelters are built specifically to withstand a 500 or 1,000kg HE-blast, and World War II has demonstrated that actual industrial machinery, as opposed to buildings or railroads, is rather resilient to aerial bombardment.
Last, the Thor's liquid fuel necessitates a fueling period of 0.5 to 2 hours before use, a time during which the missiles are vulnerable if they are not sheltered in expensive siloes.
If I may suggest another course of action, take your inspiration from Indian, Iranian or Pakistani missiles, which reportedly have CEPs of between 40 and 200 metres and can in theory be fitted with terminal active guidance. Another option would be air-launched missiles along the lines of the SLAM, a modified Harpoon missile. Even then, I don't know whether Dra-Pol can be deterred from anything, but it would give you a better chance of hitting back - though one might wonder how much damage a few hundred 500-1,000kg warheads are going to do to a dispersed industry.

Now, Nibelunc is rather accomplished in building SRBMs, IRBMs and cruise missiles, but export restrictions would apply - that is, even though a democracy, Emesa can not receive Nibelung military equipment and might in fact be subjected to trade sanctions. Now, if Emesa were to officially abolish* slavery, on the other hand, Nibelunc would happily help defend Emesan interests against foreign aggression . I suppose diplomats have said as much IC already.

*As the caste system is officially abolished in India ^^.

[Nova Gaul]

First of all, my dear Cass, Emesa has been ‘retcon’ed: it has gone from being a backwards, pagan Roman successor state to a Anglophile parliamentary democracy (c. 1900) that—by means of a cargo cult affinity towards Great Walmington—has enthusiastically embraced all things English. All the updated information is on the offsite forum. We’re like Edwardian England now, sober Godfreyites and members of the CoE (Church of Emesa ) with a polytheistic/slaveholding past that has been stuffed firmly under the rug.

As always regarding the missiles you make an excellent point sir, and I shall keep that firm mind. I haven’t decided what missile program Emesa has/had yet, if any at all, but I suspect a large part of any program would be making Drapoel wonder if Emesa has the bomb after all, or not. I was thinking a handful of Thors might be conducive towards that.

That said, I am in total agreement with WoS, on all your points sir. Staring off with Emesa’s questionable missile program. It makes absolute perfect sense that Walmington would use Singapore, or perhaps a handy nearby island, for their rocket program (it would also make quite an impression on non-English—and English—ships traversing the Straits) and that when the lease for Singapore was up Emesans modified what was a purely scientific rocket program into a military priority. To that end the Rainbow Codes program is absolutely fascinating – I am thoroughly ashamed that I didn’t know such a program existed! There is SO MUCH about history I have yet to learn, *sigh*

I was thinking that the Blue Streak Missile Program might very well be analogous to some sort of combined Emesan/English rocket program – or, more likely, an English missile program that Emesans took over when Walmington signed Singapore over. Perhaps in time the Emesans were able to make a few advances, with English assistance, in targeting systems, and also perhaps in launching satellites.

So, I don’t know, perhaps the end result is the Emesan’s have a few dozen IRBMs that everyone wonders whether or not they’re conventional. Probably, the only people who know are the English, and hopefully for the Emesans they wouldn’t tell. If worse came to worse, and the Drapoel did invade, I expect the Emesans would launch them with fairly unimpressive results.

I would be very grateful indeed for any equipment purchase offers WoS. I do know that on the ground Emesa uses the English Stockley Mark VI E(mesa), but other than that I’m at a loss for jeeps, APCs, MRLS, etc. And since we have no NATO/modern USA in AMW, it really wouldn’t make sense for Singapore to have the vibrant small arms industry it has IRL, so yes, Emesa would buy Walmingtonian arms as well as larger military pieces, although I’d hope with small arms at least the English would let the Emesans manufacture them domestically.

As for aircraft, I think we established (and I’m very comfortable with) Emesa using the Wren, Warbler, and (just beginning to use) the Whimbre. Without having a gigantic and aggressive communist nation next door Emesa might indulge in the luxury of a small and modern air force. With the reality of Dra-pol, however, they’d need a large fleet of fixed wings to fend the Drapoel off, an equivalent of the large Huey force I am thinking. And indeed, most Whimbres would be tasked with defending Singapore and Palmyra.

And regarding Singapore, your timeline works perfectly for me, and is analogous to Emesa’s growth from a primitive Roman successor state in 1860 to a modern, mixed market, Common Law utilizing clone of Walmington in 1959…with Emesa’s Constitution coming in the middle, in 1900. I expect that the financial hub of Singapore also serves as a good link between Emesa and Walmington, and perhaps is home to an English expat community? Also, given Emesa’s desire to maintain a strong alliance with Great Walmington, I also expect Emesa to have given a permanent lease on an airfield/port in Singapore to the English.

But yes, it all sounds good.

[Walmington on Sea]

Hmm, yes, I suppose you could just stick with large numbers of the cheap and simple swarm fighter family and rely on being backed up by larger and more sophisticated RAF aircraft based in the country. A flight of Stockley Swiftsure (Avro Arrow) could serve as an effective deterrent to UPAAF incursion, it's probably just a question of where best to base them, given that Singapore's 700 miles from the border. Then again, maybe the historic connection to Singapore combined with growing pessimism about security on the mainland mean that Great Walmington prefers the comparatively safe bet of the island fortress, and is only really committed to defending Singapore where, yes, I can very easily see perhaps a couple of thousand wealthy ex-pats living variously in reconstruction English country houses or Roman villas on whatever Bukit Timah hill's called in AMW.

Bit of a run-on sentence there. Never mind.

I assume that the English Space Agency continued using derivatives of the Black Arrow and other rockets to orbit satellites at least until the 1990s, though maybe I should come up with something more advanced today. I think the Walmingtonian nuclear deterrent is probably still all in the form of free-fall bombs carried aboard Buccaneers, and cruise missiles aboard submarines. I don't really see much call for nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles in AMW as things stand, but Da'Khiem's progress on that front might change things in the near future. I suppose that it must already be getting harder to be sure that a cruise missile or Buc will get through the Chaoists' ridiculous air defence grid.

[Iansisle]

I would be very grateful indeed for any equipment purchase offers WoS. I do know that on the ground Emesa uses the English Stockley Mark VI E(mesa), but other than that I’m at a loss for jeeps, APCs, MRLS, etc. And since we have no NATO/modern USA in AMW, it really wouldn’t make sense for Singapore to have the vibrant small arms industry it has IRL, so yes, Emesa would buy Walmingtonian arms as well as larger military pieces, although I’d hope with small arms at least the English would let the Emesans manufacture them domestically.

Hope you don't mind me butting in. The Shield does manufacture a line of armored vehicles based primarily on the MT-LB (in AMW, UV70) and the OT-64 (in AMW, AV63) which includes artillery tractors, field ambulances, APCs, self-propelled guns, tank hunters, engineering vehicles, etc. They generally tend to be reliable, cheap, not terribly advanced, cheap, and amphibious. And cheap. Really cheap. They were mass-produced in the 1960s and 1970s, with some smaller-scale production continuing up to the Revolution. I don't see the Empire having any particular scruples about whom they'd sell to, outside of like Depkazia and Gandvik. There's also the Westerton Buck, which is a cheap jeep-a-like that's frequently mentioned (either as a troop transport or with a recoilless rifle mounted to it) although I haven't figured out exactly what RL vehicle I'd like to play that part. And of course the Shield produced a vast amount of artillery, both self-propelled and towed, both guns and MLRS. I'm still figuring out the particulars there, but I'll certainly be leaning heavily on the Soviet, Polish, and Czechoslovakian armories. Let me know if any of this is of interest to you, although I certainly understand if the more advanced Walmingtonian systems are preferred.