AMW Big Discussion Thread

[Nova Gaul]

Sounds very good. I think we can, and I want to, keep Singapore ‘Singapore’, ‘City of the Lion’, maybe an allusion to Walmingtonian heraldry. Besides, it goes well with ‘Palmyra’. At any rate I am sure it would be the least Latin and most Anglo city in Emesa (and the most progressive, with universal local suffrage), and I’d wager as well an English expat community you’d find a fairly large segment of Nationalists who want a more secure locale. English would actually be the main language there, I think, and while I’m on the subject on language I think in Emesa (as an affect of the Walmingtonian Cargo Cult) most people probably speak English, and have been, since the early 1900s. The Syro-Latin-Malaysian combination native language would still be known and used, but most people indeed would have been taught English since birth.

The Wren (probably known to Emesans as the Alpha) would be an ideal airplane for the Empire, I think. One feature they'd want universally would be the nose-cone mounted IRST. As you say, built in Walmington and assembled in Emesa, probably in Singapore, actually, where I’d say even today you’d find a Walmingtonian military base, probably as a stipulation of the treaty of independence.

Has anyone claimed Bell Helicopters, yet? I was thinking that, if not, it might have been founded by a WoS engineer who set up shop in Palmyra (Kuala Lumpur). That would give Emesa one good native defense industry for domestic use and export, and, far more importantly, let me use the Bell UH-1N Twin Huey—which fits Emesa like a glove.

Their whopping sound makes Red Bamboo cower!

[Walmington on Sea]

I assume that Bell's pretty well covered, being -in RL to AMW terms- founded by a Franco-American, based in Chrinthania, and owned by a company from Franco-America that sort-of/partly moved to Canada when Mod and I switched places, with a manufacturing plant there, too. If it's not already clearly claimed, I expect it's because Mod and Chrin haven't settled exactly on which of them gets it (being as I'm fine with AMW-ised Sikorsky).

The engine of the UH-1 Huey at least is clearly from Amerique, and the Franco-Americans have had a stake in Drapol for generations, too, holding the island of Songac, so were allied to WoS and by extension Emesa in most of the conflicts of the C20th.

Whichever one of them gets Bell, presumably the Stockley-Wychwood powered Twin Huey would have been made available to Emesa, perhaps after Franco-American and/or Emesan experience of using the Huey in Drapol, where the rather timid 'whopping' of such machines (as compared with the greater report of a more heavily armed and faster Royal Bankfield revolverplane carrying more troops) is more likely to illicit Pavlovian salivation in the Red Bamboo, since, based on the Huey's Vietnam experience, there's a more than 40% chance they're about to kill a crate full of foreign devils ("7,013 UH-1s served in Vietnam and of these 3,305 were destroyed. In total 1,074 Huey pilots were killed, along with 1,103 other crew members").


On the Wren, that's fine, and I'd tentatively suggest that Emesan jet fighter history runs something like this:

1960s-70s: Warbler T.1 two-seat combat-capable trainer

1960s-70s: Warbler Mk.I one-seat light fighter (stubbier nose, smaller wing)

1970s-90s: Warbler Mk.II one-seat light fighter (improved hydraulics to address unsatisfactory maintenance characteristics; strengthened wing with 4 instead of 2 hard-points, allowing carriage of 2 bombs/rocket-pods along with drop-tanks; improved control surfaces for better take-off/landing performance)

1970s-present: Warbler T.2 two-seat combat-capable trainer (T.1 with hydraulics upgrade and other detail changes)

1980s-present: Wren one-seat light fighter (redesigned 5% thickness wing for high-speed performance, reheat function added to motor for ~Mach 1.5 dash, IRST device and capability to launch Elliot-Raytheon Rascal short-range AAM (Sidewinder) and Gavel light AGM (surface-attack missile based on Rascal/Sidewinder for use against armoured vehicles, unhardened buildings, small coastal ships etc))

present?: Wychwood attempting to market Whimbre one-seat light multi-role fighter to Emesa (redesigned near-double-delta wing for greater lift; adjustable canards to compensate for loss of agility in new wing; more efficient modern turbofan engine for less fuel consumption and greater sustained thrust; greater internal fuel storage and ability to carry slightly greater payloads to slightly greater range; ability to deploy up to two Elliot-Raytheon Googly satellite-guided 1,000lb glide-bombs)

[Nova Gaul]

It stands to figure that Bell has been claimed, of course—I’ll happily settle for whatever Huey-like helicopter that can be bought. Provided it cuts along with that iconic sound, though. The vulnerable nature of the helicopter (of which Emesa would have fielded far fewer than the Americans) but its simplicity meant Emesa, probably, could have bought many for low prices.

The Emesans, when they were fighting the Reds, would have had to battle and control all along the difficult Malay Peninsula to access Sul-pol above. Helicopters like the Huey would have been used to supply disparate outposts of the asymmetric war effort. You’d also have naval and amphibious operations by the Emesans, along with infantry and mobile campaigns, and the strategic bombing using the antiquated Lancasters as we discussed before.

Emesa’s war effort against Red Dra-pol—though of course a motley effort—was a total effort nonetheless. I.E., from conscription to Why We Fight type propaganda. Everyday citizens’ lives were involved with the war effort, a sporadic war but a war that lasted far longer than the Great one in Europe. Emesan casualties would have exceeded 100,000 probably over the various campaigns. It would also not have been until probably 1985, 1986 that public protests against the war took place. For their own reasons, both the Liberals and Conservatives wished to first – maintain Walmingtonian hegemony and two – when that failed, uphold a strong Nationalist regime that could fill the vacuum. But when the Nationalists began to lose ground quickly and the Parliament of Nations had failed it was clear that Emesa could not battle Red Dra-pol alone. Hmmm…I think actually this is how the Labo‘u’r Party started in Emesa!

The jet schedule is perfect. Seeing as the Liberals are in power right now, I expect the Ministry of Defense would be eagerly trying to buy the new Whimbres. Currently the existing fleet would be composed of Warbler Mark II’s (anti-ground)and Wrens (interceptor), though the Emesan models would be ‘Beta IIs’ and ‘Alphas’ respectively. The new Whimbre would, of course, in Emesa be a ‘Delta’. Manufactured in Walmington, assembled in Singapore.

[Amerique]

I tended to look at Bell Helicopters as Américain, though that may be bias from my living so close to Buffalo, where Lawrence D. Bell is revered as a bit of a hometown hero and there's a museum dedicated to him and the company commemorating its foundation and first manufacturing plant in Buffalo, NY. I just assumed that with WoS using Sikorsky and Chrin having Hughes Helicopters, McDonnell and Boeing that Bell would be the Amerique equivalent. Just my two cents, in any case, I have been subjected to the Buffalonian pride first hand.

As for use, the Huey would have been a primary component in the American contribution to the Drapol War and the lessons learned means that the Walmingtonian-assisted Twin Huey is now in widespread use as a replacement in the Army of the Republic with the Venom on the horizon and the V-22 Osprey (if Chrin permits) as a joint Chrinthani-American venture in use by the Marines (though it probably wouldn't manage the monsoon jungles of Drapol very well. The Bell 412 would also be a good utility helicopter for export with some of the lessons learned from the Huey in the Drapol War incorporated on a tighter budget than the Twin Huey, perhaps a good fit for Emesa and some NRD military units. I quite relish the thought of a potential 'modernized Vietnam War' RP in Drapol, of course.

[Dra-pol]

The NRD may well use an AMW version of the Bell CH-146 Griffon, the Canadian version of the 412, along with various Royal Bankfield (Sikorsky) revolverplanes (as the Walmingtonians call them). More than likely the Nationalists absolutely hate the Griffon, underpowered for the climate, but for the most part their superiors don't care. Or didn't, until Bong started shooting them.

On that note, there may well be a new round in the Drapoel wars, soon. It has been 24 years since the last major battles, and a whole new generation has grown up under Hotan and the corruption of the NRD, which has become little more than a kleptocracy. At the moment the NRD has very little chance of defending itself, especially in light of the shootings in parliament and destruction of a significant part of the political and military elite.

Once again most of the minor parties (Social Labour, English Industrial Democrats, Liberal Alliance) in WoS advocate abandonment of the NRD and possibly of Ide'tou, while the opposition (Tories) are making noises (unpopular ones) about going the opposite way and re-asserting imperial control over Lower Drapol, and the government (Whigs) could yet go either way, with most back benchers probably in favour of cutting losses in Drapol and increasing defence aid to Emesa in anticipation of a Nationalist collapse in the next few years.

It seems that Avarga is similarly sceptical about the Nationalists' prospects, but of course they don't have as much to lose as Amerique does in its Hong Kong like holding, and nobody has as much to lose as Emesa (well, except the surviving Nationalists, obviously).

[Chrinthania]

There are a lot of military things that I have not decided upon yet. At this time military is about the last thing I'm worried about. I'm currently working on a few other things for my factbook. If it is extremely important, I will be more than willing to investigate. However, if you can wait a little bit for me to research the osprey, I will come to you with my answer. I have not decided on anything that is not concerned with the boeing corporation. And even as the boeing corporation is concerned, there are many things that I must research. Again, military is the farthest thing from my mind.

[Nova Gaul]

The NRD may well use an AMW version of the Bell CH-146 Griffon, the Canadian version of the 412, along with various Royal Bankfield (Sikorsky) revolverplanes (as the Walmingtonians call them). More than likely the Nationalists absolutely hate the Griffon, underpowered for the climate, but for the most part their superiors don't care. Or didn't, until Bong started shooting them.

On that note, there may well be a new round in the Drapoel wars, soon. It has been 24 years since the last major battles, and a whole new generation has grown up under Hotan and the corruption of the NRD, which has become little more than a kleptocracy. At the moment the NRD has very little chance of defending itself, especially in light of the shootings in parliament and destruction of a significant part of the political and military elite.

Once again most of the minor parties (Social Labour, English Industrial Democrats, Liberal Alliance) in WoS advocate abandonment of the NRD and possibly of Ide'tou, while the opposition (Tories) are making noises (unpopular ones) about going the opposite way and re-asserting imperial control over Lower Drapol, and the government (Whigs) could yet go either way, with most back benchers probably in favour of cutting losses in Drapol and increasing defence aid to Emesa in anticipation of a Nationalist collapse in the next few years.

It seems that Avarga is similarly sceptical about the Nationalists' prospects, but of course they don't have as much to lose as Amerique does in its Hong Kong like holding, and nobody has as much to lose as Emesa (well, except the surviving Nationalists, obviously).

Time to get Palmyra on to lobbying the Tories, then. "Please, it's no bother, have a few million pounds to help out with the next by-election."

Although I haven't yet codified it on the factbook, please consider the last several posts canon and reflective of Emesa as is.

As for the good ole Huey, I imagine Emesa probably still uses more in 2012 than any other country in AMW. Probably because of war surplus, the Emesans slapped some more armor on them and a few extra rocket pods and made them into jungle gunships or some such. But I imagine the Bankfields would also be a prized item, and Emesa would buy as many as Walmington could sell -- again, roughly fitting into the parameters of Malaysia's RL military.

As you point out WoS Emesa absolutely could not afford to let the Nationalists and Concessions fall. That would, in fairly short order, mean the collapse of their own state. It wouldn't take much of a subtle nudge from the Walmie Opposition for Emesa to gear up for an all-out jungle war.

"Back to Sul-pol lads! Bring along the paraffin!"

[The Crooked Beat]

Having been a participant in the first Drapoel war all those years back, the prospect of a proper round two is of course extremely enticing, but as much as I'd like to get involved OCCly, in IC terms, options do appear fairly limited. Gandvik, of course, isn't going to stick its neck out under any circumstances. Avarga, for its part, probably has treaty obligations, but Eminliman would not be prepared to honor them in any meaningful fashion. Committing funds and personnel to a war that most already consider lost, in support of a ruling establishment that shows such little interest in its own defense, when added to the immense budgetary pressures imposed by this war with Aeropagitician and human losses numbering probably in the thousands, might amount to political suicide for the present government. Not that a battalion or two would change the overall picture anyway, of course. So, well, a cop-out, but one that Avarga's leadership won't feel too bad about.

That said, covert agencies might at least try to rescue some people who've been friendly or helpful to Avarga if things really start to turn sour, while some officers, disgraced in the Aeropagite war, could be interested in assignments with little prospect of success or survival as a means of restoring their damaged reputations. The commander at Bizerte, Vice-Admiral Walter Slade, is a good candidate for just such a mercenary appointment, but this is all getting too far ahead of events as it is.

On the subject of helicopters, the UH-1 series does look like a logical choice, if only for its low cost and probable abundance post-war, but as a weapon against the modern UPA, Huey gunships might be found wanting. Against an enemy lavishly-supplied with AAA guns and man-portable SAMs, increasingly mechanized as opposed to foot-mobile, they may not be especially survivable, even beefed-up modern twin-engine versions like whatever AMW's equivalent of the RL UH-1Y happens to be. No doubt still perfectly adequate for general utility roles, though. And then there's the whole Royal Bankfield catalog, the S-61 and S-70. A few modernized S-58s might not be entirely out of order. And then of course Chinooks, if Chrinthania is willing to sell them.

[Walmington on Sea]

All quite right, of course, TCB.

I imagine, though, that cost is often an over-riding issue for both the corrupt NRD and the not-particularly-rich Emesa. When politicians are faced with probably the largest military in the world (twice the size of the Byzantine Empire's), fielding over 25,000 armoured vehicles, over 1,400 combat jets, and more than 700 helicopters, conceivably some would want to do as much as possible to match their quantity while relying on the Americans and Walmingtonians to provide a technological edge.

When it actually comes to a new round of fighting, they may quickly be made to realise that adding heavy armour to already arguably under-powered Hueys and deploying them in hot and humid conditions against the greatly-improved UPA is a recipe for unmitigated disaster, but perhaps on paper the desk-jockeys think, "We have hundreds of helicopters, and we've improved them with new armour and weapons! We're fine!" (To be fair, the UPA's own helicopters, which include some with archaic radial engines, and many extremely small types, are also likely to be lost at a high rate, I suppose.)

You have made me decide that, yes, the DNA will deploy old Royal Bankfield S-58s along with Anglo-American Bell-Canada Griffons. Maybe I'll apply the name 'Wessex' to it, as with the British version IRL, if I can settle on which (if any) bit of Canada (or Amberland) to call such!

Right, I should get back to finishing off the updating of WoS and Dra-pol factbooks so I can make progress towards this interesting RP future.

Edit- Oh, I don't know if I've mentioned it before, but I've started using, "Parliament of Nations call-signs" for some aircraft, mostly Gandvian types in UPAAF service, adopting NATO designations for Soviet aircraft, such as Fishbed and Fulcrum, since we don't have a NATO and I imagine that Gandvian aircraft are mostly known to the Anglosphere for their role in the Drapoel Wars and shadowing/being-shadowed-by RAF aircraft over the Baltic. Does that make sense to everyone (well, mostly the TCB, really)?

[Nova Gaul]

I too am working on updating the Emesa factbook, should be up by next week.

Indeed to some MoD official a fleet of Hueys - with armor - would seem to solve all of Emesa's military helicopter concerns. And as WoS points out, given concerns and the nature of the potential enemy (potentially a genocidal enemy) hundreds of antiquated - but armored - Hueys would be seen as far better than, say, a few dozen modern attack helicopters.

I too am looking forward to a potential RP regarding this!

Given the significant odds in Red Dra-pol's favor, as well, Emesa would be forced to utilize a military strategy that holds the Marcian Wall (DMZ) on the ground while employing her navy and air force to break the Reds ability to wage a war. Part and parcel of the strategy, from Emesa's POV, would be the restoration of the Nationalists...as opposed to a prolonged direct occupation. But how does one hurt a Suloist nation by navy blockade? Therefore, in any major war scenario, Emesa would be forced to fall back on a strategy that worked during the Drapoel insurgency: strategic bombing.

Given Emesa's rather lackluster campaigns against the Reds in Sul-pol during the war years, one thing I imagine that they can point to with success is the Lancaster bombing campaign. I don't know who sells them (I imagine Gandvik might) but one military item that Emesa would pay top dollar for, out of its limited resources, would be a fleet, approximately two wings, of strategic bombers. Something along the lines of the Tupolev Tu-16 model. Thus the Emesan strategy would be to break Red Drapoel's infrastructure to such a degree that it cannot resist the "Nationalist liberation". Whether or not this Nationalist liberation is able to occur is the question, of course, which would only drive Emesa closer to the Walmingtonians in a desperate attempt to keep them in the region.

EDIT: Also, Emesa would probably have a few paratrooper battalions designed to go behind enemy lines and seize strategic positions, perhaps in anticipation of a Nationalist advance.

[Amerique]

On that note, there may well be a new round in the Drapoel wars, soon. It has been 24 years since the last major battles, and a whole new generation has grown up under Hotan and the corruption of the NRD, which has become little more than a kleptocracy. At the moment the NRD has very little chance of defending itself, especially in light of the shootings in parliament and destruction of a significant part of the political and military elite.

Well, whenever you're ready to start that, I'm definitely game. My last post in "Something's New Under the Sun" was largely intended to start a storyline with the potential to escalate into a second Drapoel War or just continue with the same-old, same-old. It should definitely be interesting if that happens, given that the time since the Drapoel War built up Songac under the assumption that the status quo would always remain in place as long as all sides were profiting off of the new found Sea of Drapol oil. As a result, I imagine there are several UPA artillery batteries pointed at Songac for show which will go absolutely apeshit once hostilities begin over some incident or another. It should be interesting to RP what a mini-Hong Kong or Singapore being levelled by modern artillery barrage should turn out to be, especially for such a densely-populated space. It would turn out to be a brutal and bloody war indeed.

[The Crooked Beat]

As it happens, Gandvik doesn't actually operate much of a strategic bombing force, having decided at some point during the 1950s that, with air defense equipment advancing at such a rapid rate, and ballistic missiles looking more and more capable, the development of aircraft that could not only carry a useful bomb load but survive long enough to deliver it would not be supportable in budgetary terms. That and the Tupolev line went to Unreal's Thracia, if he's still around, so Emesa would have to deal with them in order to acquire RL Russian heavy bombers. Chrinthania seems to have a pretty solid claim on all of RL America's bomber aircraft, but there's a chance that these, being part of the nation's nuclear deterrent, might not necessarily be available for export. Chrin will have to chime-in on that point.

There might be an argument to be made against Emesa sinking resources into strategic aviation. If anything, past experience in Dra-pol seems to demonstrate how a combatant without, at first, any air force to speak of, and after that always operating at a marked disadvantage in air power, can still retain enough industry and logistical capacity to permit aggressive operations on a major scale. Hitting North Dra-pol with enough force to put a serious dent in its military production and transport network, using conventional as opposed to nuclear weapons, would probably tax the resources of AMW's most powerful nations immensely, and may not be a viable option for countries whose means are more limited. An air force does not only have to physically bomb or launch cruise missiles at its targets, but must also provide fighter escort, electronic countermeasures and SEAD support, all of those tasks requiring aircraft that could be used elsewhere. In a Drapoel context, focusing on tactical air power, close air support and interdiction, might hold out greater promise, as it could be prohibitively expensive to maintain a fleet of strategic bombers sufficiently numerous or modern as to stand a good chance of seriously curtailing Drapoel military capacities, especially when the numerous UPAAF and associated air defense missiles are thrown into the mix.

At least, that is how things look to me.

[Walmington on Sea]

Yet again, I agree with TCB (and in keeping with the current discussion on the RMB, I feel like a lot of LibDem novelty T-shirts from the last UK General Election could be re-used with one slight edit), but have more to add.

In the original wars, Dra-pol was (conventionally) bombed extensively between 1950 and 1988, which achieved the derailing of one UPA mechanised thrust and contributed to the disintegration of formative Kurosite and later Hotanite air forces, but did little to check the activity of the Red Bamboo. It was always, I think, first and foremost light infantry, espionage, infiltration, tunnel warfare, and guerrillas who brought about the UPA's gains.

Now Hotan has enormous artillery and substantial air forces, but I'm not sure that they've ever been really significant in the past, meaning that there was always precious little of strategic value for the invading powers to bomb except civilian population centres (perhaps in hopes of incidentally killing current or would-be Red Bamboo recruits, or terrorising people into turning on the Communists since they couldn't reach the bombers).

Maybe from the Emesan point of view, simply killing as many Drapoel as possible seemed like a viable strategy, especially before they really understood that it was probably impossible to wipe-out the Drapoel race with conventional weapons and that WoS wasn't going to give them the bomb. However, I dare say this sort of thing came to more than just testbeds and enabled them to give it a good go with blockbusters and tallboys and what not...

Stockley Oak... with jet engines, and weight saved/speed increased by deleting guns.

It didn't really work, because Sulo and K-II were primitivists, and by Hotan's time there were just too many Drapoel as the population had been rising so quickly, to say nothing of the territorial gains made. Not enough infrastructure worth bombing, too many people and too much territory to bomb intensively. But perhaps the growth of Drapoel territory and population only made the Emesans more keen to bomb it!

[Nova Gaul]

WoS & TCB, you both make superb points.

Firstly, to TCB, you are correct that for a middling country like Emesa any force, say beyond a few squadrons, of modern strategic bombers would surely be cost prohibitive. My suggestion of that was, basically, in response to the fact that, since 88’, the Emesan military would have been going over the successes/failures of their various conflicts with Dra-pol over the last few decades. Among their only tangible successes, and it is of course questionable as WoS points out, was a prolonged (and at the time unchallenged) bombing campaign against Dra/Sul-pol using antiquated Walmingtonian Stockley Oaks and Lancasters. In a hot jungle war that pitted fairly listless Emesan draftees (ostensibly part of the Parliament of Nations but in practice, I suspect, fighting the Red Bamboo in the lonely parts of Sul-pol) against an ideologically motivated foe with great numerical superiority Emesans would take some pride in the fact they dropped thousands of tons of bombs on the Drapoel Reds – with varying degrees of accuracy – and generally were able to blow vast tracts of the jungle to hell.

As WoS pointed out a few posts back, perhaps Walmington didn’t mind selling Emesa those old bombers, as it would place the blame for such strong tactics on Palmyra.

In any case, that was more or less my reasoning for wanting Emesa to have a modern bombing force. But novice that I continue to be, I didn’t really appreciate all the accoutrements that would have to go along with the bombers themselves. My only thought was that the Emesans would look at what worked in their campaigns, what didn’t, and in general what had been possible.

So then, I guess I will stick with keeping the Emesan military as is (a carbon copy of Malaysia’s, except they use Walmingtonian jets, tanks, etc., as has been discussed before), which is to say a small but modern military with a high degree of mobility and flexibility. The meat of any strategy of a modern Drapoel War would be to hold the Marcian Line (fortified over two thousand years). Besides that, they could supply the Nationalists by sea and air I suppose.

I do think it would be accurate to say that, like Malaysia, Emesa has a small but high caliber navy, probably natively built with Walmingtonian assistance. I guess that if it came to war, Emesa might try helping the Nationalists blockade Dra-pol, FWIW. I guess that if they sunk enough resources into such a project they might be able to attempt an amphibious landing in the north of the Malay Peninsula, once. Maybe in coordination with a NRD offensive?

In any case, at the end of the day, the government in Palmyra (certainly the Conservatives) probably is fairly fatalistic about the whole thing, seeing that the end of the NRD is nigh. And while the Liberal Government continues to cozy up to the Tories in the City, trying to rekindle Walmingtonian interest in a very lost venture, Emesa has neither the ability nor the will to take on Red Dra-pol alone.

Staving them off at the Marcian Line, however, would be doable. And I seriously doubt the powers of AMW would allow Emesa to fall, allowing the Reds to seize the Straits of Malacca and Singapore. That, at least, is Palmyra’s hope!

[Nova Gaul]

Oh, a quick addendum. I am working on redoing the Emesa factbook right now. When it comes to Emesa's military, could I just post a link to the RL Malaysian military? With the understanding, of course, that any American etc. equipment is Walmingtonian?

I want to get a new guidebook up, but the military (though small) is described in great detail, so I thought this might be the easiest route. This leaves me my free time to concentrate on the altered history/government as described above. THoughts?

[Chrinthania]

TCB, I've no aversion to exporting to you whatever you need. While Chrinthania is a tad more particular in who they deal with, money talks and bullcrap walks (not to put too fine a point on it).

[The Crooked Beat]

Not that this especially concerns Avarga or Gandvik, but that seems like a pretty reasonable way to go about it, given who's likely to be involved with Emesa on military terms.

In response to Chrinthania's comment, that is of course very convenient for Avarga, though in that particular case I was more referring to possible Emesan requirements. No surprise that wasn't clear in my post. :/ In any event, a few Chinooks might fit in very well with Avarga's army air corps.

I don't want to take the focus away from Drapoel discussions, but, having recently purchased an extremely interesting book on the post-war British aircraft industry, appropriately titled Project Cancelled,, I've recently been thinking about some possible directions which Europe's aviation powers might have followed in AMW. In particular, there could be a lot of potential for cooperation between Valendia and Nibelung in both civil and military domains. Unlike in RL, where French and German manufacturing and design capacities were wrecked by the Second World War, the Nibelung states and Valendia would probably have emerged from our Great War with their aeronautical establishments in much stronger shape. Nibelung in particular would have been able to take immediate advantage of its early technical lead, if RL provides any guidance in that respect, while Valendia would presumably have kept building and engineering aircraft throughout the war years without having to labor under restrictions similar to those imposed upon Vichy France.

As relations between Western Europe's two dominant powers, erstwhile Oakist allies to boot, warmed over those immediate post-war years, I wonder whether their respective governments might have decided to pool their resources on a few high-profile efforts, possibly starting with a high-level ministerial meeting some time during the late 1940s or early 1950s?

Civil/Transport Side:

High on that list of cooperative projects could have been a European challenge to Chrinthania's growing dominance of long-range airliner and transport markets, as represented by the Douglas DC-6 and Lockheed Constellation. The return of Fw 200s from military service, and maybe a smoother development and increased production of Valendian SE.161 Languedoc airliners might have provided continental airlines with firmer foundations post-war, but the development of a Trans-Atlantic platform to challenge Chrinthani offerings could have been an important initial focus. Focke-Wulf's RL Transocean project could be a good place to start, and there's a decent chance, given how much of present-day Nibelunc remained neutral, that civil programs such as that remained in development during those war years. Maybe a few of these had even flown by 1945, and by 1950 or so had found their way into commercial service.

Europe's next hurdle would be a Trans-Atlantic jet, something to rival the Boeing 707. Perhaps the Airbus consortium was formed during the early 1950s to address that exact issue. Recognizing jet propulsion as the way forward, this embryonic Airbus decides to undertake a dual program, with a primarily Valendian-led team dealing with a shorter-range airliner that becomes the RL Caravelle, while a group of Nibelung manufacturers lead efforts to develop a jet for ocean crossings, something that ends up approximating the RL Vickers V.1000? Maybe this could be the Airbus A200 or something to that effect.

That would more or less carry Airbus into the present day, with its A300 series appearing in the early 1970s.

Avarga's UHAA would have been interested in buying-into Airbus at some point, though it's not really a factor in the large airliner business, and in piston/turboprop utility markets it would have faced competition from many quarters for much of its initial post-war history. RL CASA, though, as part of EADS/Airbus Military, seems to be doing pretty well today with its C-212 Aviocar and C-235/295 designs, so perhaps there might have been some agreement between Valendian, Nibelung, and Avargan governments to concentrate developments on that end of the scale in UHAA. Meanwhile, for short-haul/regional markets, I wonder if AMW's Airbus hasn't possibly negotiated some sort of licensing deal with Walmington's Stockley corporation, to build a portion of continental sales for RL Bombardier CRJ700 jets and Dash-8 turboprops, which could also make Walmington more willing to supply Stockley-Wychwood powerplants, especially AMW's versions of those ubiquitous Pratt & Whitney Canada turboprop engines.

Another question revolves around the A400M, in RL a project that Airbus appears to have botched badly, but one that still has promise and, in AMW, might have been carried-off more successfully. Is there a chance that Valendia and Nibelung might be developing or have developed this aircraft as a Transall/Hercules replacement after all?

Military Side

Given how Valendian and Nibelung aerospace industries emerged from the Great War more or less intact, in AMW there may not have been a need for that flood of American types that characterized Western European air forces post-war. RL France is of course a major exception to that trend, but I wonder whether, in those first years, early Nibelung jets like production versions of the Focke-Wulf Ta-183 and improved Me-262s might have found employment in wider Europe.

In any event, it seems likely that, up until 1955 or so, Valendia and Nibelung basically dealt with their combat aircraft requirements in-house, yielding that succession of Dassault designs from Ouragan to Super-Mystere and probable Nibelung equivalents, which I'm sure can be pulled from one of those Secret Projects books, a lot of which are kicking around Scribd.

Various national efforts might have been brought together at first by supersonic research, with Valendia and Nibelung agreeing to pool their efforts on that front during the late 1940s and early 1950s, perhaps even leading to Europe's first supersonic manned flight around that point in time. In RL, of course, Germany bought (and built) hundreds of Lockheed F-104s, which, in retrospect, does not seem to have been a great choice. Accordingly, maybe Dassault's outstanding Mirage III was our first Eurofighter, funded by both Valendian and Nibelung governments against a common requirement, and perhaps constructed in both countries as well.

I'm thinking that matters might have diverged from reality most sharply in terms of a European F-4 Phantom, something along the lines of Hawker's unbuilt P.1121. This would have given both of Western Europe's major powers a solid, capable, and home-grown fighter-bomber to fill the space between Mirage III and Tornado, a sort of heavy counterpart to the lighter Mirage. Maybe this could also be a Nibelung-led project, to counterbalance Valendian Dassault's heavy output of fighter designs.

Matters might have proceeded more or less in RL for a while at least, with the SEPECAT Jaguar becoming a Nibelung-Valendian project and the Mirage F1 replacing Mirage IIIs. Perhaps Valendia could have even bought into the Tornado/Craha project, replacing Britain and Italy as in RL and providing Valendia with an important interdiction/strike capability that RL France did not possess. This pattern of partnership could have encountered some turbulence during the 1970s and 1980s, with Valendia opting to pursue the Mirage 2000 while Nibelung develops the LFA-80. Differing requirements in terms of short-field performance and intended role might have been important factors in motivating this split. Either that, or Valendia could have been on board with LFA-80 as well. LFA-80 could even be the Mirage 2000.

That would bring Western Europe up to the Rafale/Eurofighter period. Given how we don't have a UK or an Italy, most of North America seems to be going its own way, and export opportunities a la India may be a bit rare in AMW, it might make good economic sense for Valendia and Nibelunc, and perhaps Avarga too, to have cooperated on their current-generation fighter. I'm thinking that the Rafale might be a good contender for AMW's Eurofighter (or Eurofighter 3, depending on how things turn out), so that we can keep the RL Eurofighter Typhoon on hand for any future UK or Italian player.

Here's a brief timeline, for organizational purposes:

-1945-1955 (approx): Dassault, Focke-Wulf, Messerschmitt, Dornier etc. working largely independently
-1948-1952: bi-national research effort leads to first manned European supersonic flight, gathers important data
-1955-1962: using new research on supersonic flight, Valendia and Nibelung work on pair of common fighters, a light Mirage III for traditional fighter missions and a larger, longer-range P.1121 equivalent for tactical nuclear strike, interdiction, and long-range interception
-1962-1973: SEPECAT Jaguar and Mirage F1
-1973-1985: Valendia and Nibelunc part ways over next-generation tactical fighter, developing Mirage 2000 and LFA-80 respectively, but both adopt Tornado/Craha for strike missions
-1985-2000: Work on next-generation Eurofighter, emerges as RL Rafale

Engines

One major problem for building a European aviation industry independent of both Britain and the United States is an acute shortage of powerplants. Turbomeca and SNECMA provide good coverage over helicopter and fighter requirements, but it might be necessary to appropriate some RL British designs, or at least proposed designs, to address everything that is needed. As most of that would have occurred retroactively, it is not so much of a problem. Perhaps it would be adequate to assume that BMW, Daimler Benz, and Junkers built everything called-for in this proposed outline, but not addressed by RL French production?

Anyway, I apologize for my overpowering use of the conditional tense. All things considered, it seemed appropriate. This is a lot to consider, and probably not something that most people stay awake at night thinking about (hopefully, anyway), but might still be interesting to figure out and would maybe help set Western Europe apart as a more distinct aircraft-producing bloc, less dependent on North America. If this strikes Valendia and Nibelunc as an attractive proposition, I'd be happy to fill-in the necessary details, and if not, that is of course fine as well.

[Cassanos]

As for a future war in Dra-Pol, I’d like to participate in the thread, but Nibelunc would not send any forces this time. While a Nibelung brigade and some air assets were involved in the first war, the Nibelungs were quickly disillusioned by the development of the NR’s government and unilaterally broke their agreement with Sul-Pol. While today, a much greater involvement would be possible, it would be considered not worth the effort to prop up a corrupt dictatorship and a slave-holding nation.

TCB, excellent points about the European aircraft industry. After the Great War, Junkers, Heinkel, Focke-Wulf, Arado and Fieseler were running at full tilt and almost completely unharmed by the war. Dornier, as I have found out, is based out of Friedrichshafen and Manching and thus just outside my territory, as is Augsburg’s Messerschmidt. Only a few kilometers, but there you are.
Unfortunately, I am not as well-versed in the history of aviation as you are, and will thus be relying largely on your ideas.
Anyway, I’ll try to address the points you made and, as usual, will be stealing your formatting .
Civil/Transport Side:

Civilian airlines would indeed be using Fw-200 and Ju-90 transports (some reconverted from military service, while long-range (that is, transatlantic) flights being conducted by imported Chrinthani jets and Fokker F-27 turboprops. Valendian success with the Caravelle and their own designs led to the development of Fokker’s F-28 Fellowship in the early sixties.
Now, if Valendia is amenable, we can say that after the Caravelle and the Fellowship, the Airbus consortium was founded in 1965 by Fokker and Dassault in an effort to reduce skyrocketing design costs, and later joined by Junkers and other corporations. As for UHAA joining as well, I am absolutely in favour of it, not least because, as you said, CASA allows us to have some aircraft smaller than a transoceanic passenger liner.
As for military transport aircraft, Nibelunc probably tried and failed to build up its Ju-252 and Ju-290 as viable rivals of the Valendian Noratlas, and went on to buy Chrinthani C-130s while Valendia pursued the development of the Transall. Nowadays, the redesigned and refurbished C-130J Super Hercules is the Luftwaffe’s tactical workhorse, but as you noted, a replacement is going to be needed quite soon, and maybe a simpler A-400M is the way to go here. Would Valendia and Avarga join such a programme?

More on the military and engine (and rotary wing) aspects later, but I have to go to work now.

[Walmington on Sea]

I think Walmingtonian co-operation with European aerospace industry will have waxed and waned frequently and rapidly, with the English usually keen to get along with Nibelunc (many, especially in Amberland, still feel a distant kinship with the Saxons in particular, and I'd imagine that the Nibelung nations made up a significant minority amongst English North America's immigrant population for several centuries), but frequently delaying over licencing and technology sharing when Stockley, Chassire, or Wychwood had a major product waiting to hit the market and keen to avoid competition.

Of course Walmington's first jet powered airliners will have been these Stockleys which, I don't know, may be called Jetliners, or may steal the Comet name, or something else.

Now that WoS has expanded a bit, and historic relations with Chrinthania have changed radically, I'm unsure about how much if any of my military aviation I ought to change. Currently we're essentially flying two Chrinthani fighters -one as a strike fighter, the other a light multi-role aircraft- with Walmingtonian engines and sensors, plus one Walmingtonian interceptor. I was tempted at one stage to use one of BA(e)'s prototypes/design studies that eventually lead to the Eurofighter, but for some reason... I didn't.

I also wonder what on earth we used instead of the Canberra and the V-bombers for all those years, having nothing, really, after the jet-powered Lancaster. Possibly a nuclear strike variant of the Avro Arrow? And could the CF-100 Canuck be turned into a Canberra-esque light bomber?

Curse you, TCB, for raising this topic!

[Horusland]

May I ask what makes this RP special from the others? And if it's still working? (The initial post was in 2009.....)

[Nova Gaul]

AMW has been active, continuously, from about 2002-2003. This is our ten-year. A few players have been around that long, some have left us, some are recent arrivals, and some are in between.

What makes our group special, Horus, is that we are a region of role-players who have a vested commitment in seeing that both our countries and the community are awesome.

We are dedicated to realism (mostly), quality, and collegiality. Thank you for your polite inquiry.

[Horusland]

AMW has been active, continuously, from about 2002-2003. This is our ten-year. A few players have been around that long, some have left us, some are recent arrivals, and some are in between.

What makes our group special, Horus, is that we are a region of role-players who have a vested commitment in seeing that both our countries and the community are awesome.

We are dedicated to realism (mostly), quality, and collegiality. Thank you for your polite inquiry.

OK. That sounds great. Except for the quality part. I suck at that.
Well, sorry for disturbing, then.

[Nova Gaul]

No bother at all Horus! If you are interested in learning more about the region (and a 19th century spinoff) here is the link to the application thread: AMW Application Thread

All the best!

[The Crooked Beat]

TCB, excellent points about the European aircraft industry. After the Great War, Junkers, Heinkel, Focke-Wulf, Arado and Fieseler were running at full tilt and almost completely unharmed by the war. Dornier, as I have found out, is based out of Friedrichshafen and Manching and thus just outside my territory, as is Augsburg’s Messerschmidt. Only a few kilometers, but there you are.
Unfortunately, I am not as well-versed in the history of aviation as you are, and will thus be relying largely on your ideas.
Anyway, I’ll try to address the points you made and, as usual, will be stealing your formatting .
Civil/Transport Side:

Civilian airlines would indeed be using Fw-200 and Ju-90 transports (some reconverted from military service, while long-range (that is, transatlantic) flights being conducted by imported Chrinthani jets and Fokker F-27 turboprops. Valendian success with the Caravelle and their own designs led to the development of Fokker’s F-28 Fellowship in the early sixties.
Now, if Valendia is amenable, we can say that after the Caravelle and the Fellowship, the Airbus consortium was founded in 1965 by Fokker and Dassault in an effort to reduce skyrocketing design costs, and later joined by Junkers and other corporations. As for UHAA joining as well, I am absolutely in favour of it, not least because, as you said, CASA allows us to have some aircraft smaller than a transoceanic passenger liner.
As for military transport aircraft, Nibelunc probably tried and failed to build up its Ju-252 and Ju-290 as viable rivals of the Valendian Noratlas, and went on to buy Chrinthani C-130s while Valendia pursued the development of the Transall. Nowadays, the redesigned and refurbished C-130J Super Hercules is the Luftwaffe’s tactical workhorse, but as you noted, a replacement is going to be needed quite soon, and maybe a simpler A-400M is the way to go here. Would Valendia and Avarga join such a programme?

I keep forgetting about Fokker! Good to know that the F27 and F28 (and many more besides) are in fact available in AMW. That certainly gives Nibelunc an important commercial aviation asset during the initial post-war decades. Do you think Nibelunc, Valendia, or both would have tried to compete with the Boeing 707 in some way? They didn't in RL, but given both parties' available resources, it seems plausible for them to have done so. At the very least it gives us room to revive some RL British what-if designs. As for AMW not having Messerschmitt, or not yet anyway, what do you think the main Cassanovan fighter type would have been during the Great War? Maybe the PZL.55 and .56 make an appearance at some point. Bohemia has the Avia B.135, which was apparently a highly-rated aircraft with performance comparable to the Bf 109, and which might make a good substitute.

My appropriation of CASA is probably less than strictly fair, but, while headquartered in Madrid, its factories at least are in Seville, so I figure Avarga's claim is somewhat legitimate. The current UHAA C.35, which is basically a twin-engined Pilatus Porter, will probably become the C-212 Aviocar, anyway, and if that becomes a problem there's still the Miles Aerovan to pirate!

Avarga would definitely be interested in the A-400M. UHAA probably doesn't stand to be quite so significant an element in the program as CASA is in RL, but might still build structural components or something along those lines. An Avargan requirement might amount to 5-7 examples.

I think Walmingtonian co-operation with European aerospace industry will have waxed and waned frequently and rapidly, with the English usually keen to get along with Nibelunc (many, especially in Amberland, still feel a distant kinship with the Saxons in particular, and I'd imagine that the Nibelung nations made up a significant minority amongst English North America's immigrant population for several centuries), but frequently delaying over licencing and technology sharing when Stockley, Chassire, or Wychwood had a major product waiting to hit the market and keen to avoid competition.

Of course Walmington's first jet powered airliners will have been these Stockleys which, I don't know, may be called Jetliners, or may steal the Comet name, or something else.

Now that WoS has expanded a bit, and historic relations with Chrinthania have changed radically, I'm unsure about how much if any of my military aviation I ought to change. Currently we're essentially flying two Chrinthani fighters -one as a strike fighter, the other a light multi-role aircraft- with Walmingtonian engines and sensors, plus one Walmingtonian interceptor. I was tempted at one stage to use one of BA(e)'s prototypes/design studies that eventually lead to the Eurofighter, but for some reason... I didn't.

I also wonder what on earth we used instead of the Canberra and the V-bombers for all those years, having nothing, really, after the jet-powered Lancaster. Possibly a nuclear strike variant of the Avro Arrow? And could the CF-100 Canuck be turned into a Canberra-esque light bomber?

Curse you, TCB, for raising this topic!

Given how WoS is now as big as France and the UK, and possibly less inclined to sabotage itself than the latter, I don't think anyone would be perturbed if Walmington started building more of its own aircraft. There's a rich history of abandoned British projects that could be mined profitably while leaving plenty for any potential UK player, plus of course Avro Canada and Canadair, though I've had less success finding information on their what-ifs.

As a home-grown alternative to the Super Phantom, how about the BAE P.110? This one also looks good, as perhaps a lower-risk alternative, pretty comparable to the F/A-18 or F-15. With those leading-edge root extensions and twin engine power, that latter design study could probably be extrapolated into a very successful aircraft in an AMW context.

As for the light multi-role design, I'm sure any one out of that interesting spread that you posted a few pages back could be re-purposed, but if something a little larger is necessary, how about the BAC P.45, in RL a contender for the Jaguar's spot, or fellow hopeful Hawker Siddeley HS.1173? Another design that looks to be very suitable for the F-20's role is the BAe P.163.

To fill Walmington's requirement for a Canberra equivalent, there's the Gloster Jet Bomber, or the Gloster P.109. The latter looks like it would be a good Canberra substitute, and while four-engined according to the design studies that I've seen, there's no reason why you couldn't say that later variants used only two jets when more powerful models became available. The former strikes me as more suited toward longer-range activities, maybe as the next step away from jet-powered Lancasters? The CF-100 probably has plenty of potential as a night-time interdiction platform, but without an internal bomb-bay, turning it into a worthwhile medium bomber might take an excessive amount of re-working. I don't see any reason why the Avro Arrow couldn't be used for nuclear toss-bombing or something to that effect, though some eyebrows might be raised if it starts sporting Skybolts!

Well, that just about exhausts my stash of prototypes and design drawings. Always interesting to see what's out there! A complete redesign of Walmington's air force, even if Chrinthania wasn't so friendly in years past, probably isn't in order, but if any of those concepts look attractive, by all means feel free to use them, and the same goes for everyone else.

Also, with the Bf 109 not available, I was wondering if anyone would object if I appropriated the Supermarine Spiteful/Seafang/Attacker for Avarga? Not the most original solution, I know, but different enough from the Spitfire so as not to be too tangled-up with that line, and a good airframe for English Leland engines. Then again, maybe the Avargan HA-1112 could become an all-original design until someone comes along to claim Messerschmitt. The simplest solution might just be Double Wasp-powered Fw 190...

*indecision*

[Walmington on Sea]

Skybolt? I know you meant to say Blue Steel :P (Not that I can imagine any way for it to fit aboard the Arrow, anyway, but never mind that!)

Gloster jet bombers, though! I had utterly forgotten about those.

Anyway, I suppose that's not so important as the current line. The P.110 (and P.106) was one I'd been looking at, though I can't quite get over how 'American' some of the others look to me (I know, I know, I'm currently using the F-20 and Phantom).

I think that, compared to its British likeness, a more fastidious Walmington with fewer rival companies, no NATO-like obligations, and an enduring imperial commitment might have produced fewer designs and then developed them to the extremes of their potential. Certainly in more-British-than-the-British Walmington a character such as the Lord Duncan-Sandys would have been gently humoured all the way to a well-paid posting somewhere exotic, and the notion of side-lining manned aircraft programmes packed in his attaché case for the urgent attention of, if not camels, then certainly penguins, such as his new constituents may be.

In short, I think it's finally time to throw caution to the wind regarding my gentle pruning of British aerospace artefacts, and bring back the Buc. Walmington may have committed in the early '60s to a Joint Force Buccaneer development, eventually produced the supersonic proposal, and ended up with different landing gear and more capable avionics et cetera. Likely the RAF in AMW got the back of the Admiralty's hand when it dared to sniff at the notion of using land-based variants of ostensible naval aircraft, the RN remaining more important to WoS's lasting empire and the RAF not really having a Battle of Britain event to its credit. (Note that I've dropped the, “W” because the qualifier, “Walmingtonian” was initially meant to distinguish Godfrey's forces from those of the British crown... in a world without said, Walmingtonians have no interest in anybody else's ego, and feel that it's everyone else's job to differentiate themselves from the benchmark English :) )

Basic Trainer: Wychwood-Raytheon Wheatear (Beechcraft T-6 Texan; designed by Elliot-Raytheon and [Chrinthani company], airframe built by Wychwood)

Basic Jet Trainer: Wychwood Warbler Mk.II-T (Folland Gnat Trainer with improvements to hydraulics, landing gear, control surfaces in similar fashion to HAL Ajeet, updated avionics; widely used in colonies to train pilots for COIN work)

Advanced Jet Trainer: Don't know! Buy/licence-produce Alpha Jet if Nibelunc and/or Valendia are using it? Find out if anyone's using the PZL I-22 Iryda/help the Shieldians fund it to completion? What's the situation with Aero Vodochody in Nibelunc?

Colonial Fighter: Wychwood Wren (extrapolation from Gnat with thin-wing, afterburner, bush tyres, and IRST device, Rascal (Sidewinder) compatibility)

Light Multi-Role Fighter: I'm seriously considering Fairey Delta-2 developed into a Mirage-III equivalent fighter, and progressively modernised, though I do find myself reminded of just how terrible America was at making early jet engines, compared to Britain at least. Hey, look! Most of the performance for only a few times the displacement, half a decade later! Useless! Possibly the P.110 or P.106 might have replaced it and taken over some interceptor and strike roles as well, but I'm not sure.

Interceptor: Stockley Swiftsure Mk.IV (evolved Avro Arrow with Mach-3 capability, supercruise, true fly-by-wire, new materials for heat resistance and weight reduction, modified landing gear for more fuel/weapons stowage)

Strike Fighter: [name pending] (Blackburn Buccaneer joint service supersonic upgrade; possibly responsible for deploying Umsobomvu Device (likely akin to Red Beard) in 1988)

I might still buy some Phantoms from Chrinthania, perhaps surplus aircraft to be hurriedly refurbished by Chassire during the Drapoel Wars because we had too few Buccaneers to carry out attacks, while most other aircraft were too light or short-range for some missions.

Most support and transport aircraft can probably remain the same, though I expect I'll make one or two changes eventually.



As for Avarga and the 109/190/Spiteful, are the Molnar-Bankfield Mb.3 and 5 not suitable? Or, for greater local initiative, if Gandvik isn't using Swedish (FFVS J 22, perhaps eventually with a 1,200hp rather than 1,065hp Stockley-Wychwood engine?) and Finnish (VL Myrsky, Pyorremyrsky) aircraft, are any of them free for Avarga to take?