AMW Big Discussion Thread

[The ByzantineDiscidium]

The Suez canal exists, but it's called the Pharaoh's Canal and trying to send warships through it will go down with Premier Leonidakis like killing his wife and burning his house down. Even if it is to try and strike the Areos. Speaking of striking the Areos, was that African war/diplomacy thread ever actually created, or does it remain locked away in that dark hellhole that is Max's mind?

I don't think it was ever created, which seems to have unintentionally worked out well for Max, considering he's now at daggers with Western Europe.

[Old Tyrannia]

The Suez canal exists, but it's called the Pharaoh's Canal and trying to send warships through it will go down with Premier Leonidakis like killing his wife and burning his house down. Even if it is to try and strike the Areos. Speaking of striking the Areos, was that African war/diplomacy thread ever actually created, or does it remain locked away in that dark hellhole that is Max's mind?

I don't think it was ever created, which seems to have unintentionally worked out well for Max, considering he's now at daggers with Western Europe.

Yes it was. This is the umpteenth time I've had this discussion; the Kemetics built it with Oakist funding just prior to- possibly in preperation for- the Great War. I remember you offering to have the Arabs build it- to be honest, there was nothing the Caliphate could build that the Kemetics couldn't at that point. Kemet had already had three canals in the same place during the pre-Caesarean period.

[Chrinthanium]

I think ByzD was referring to the War/Diplomacy thread, not the canal.

[Old Tyrannia]

I think ByzD was referring to the War/Diplomacy thread, not the canal.

Ah. Sorry, it's just that I've had the same discussion soooo many times with various people...

[Maxen von Bismarck]

The Suez canal exists, but it's called the Pharaoh's Canal and trying to send warships through it will go down with Premier Leonidakis like killing his wife and burning his house down. Even if it is to try and strike the Areos. Speaking of striking the Areos, was that African war/diplomacy thread ever actually created, or does it remain locked away in that dark hellhole that is Max's mind?

I don't think it was ever created, which seems to have unintentionally worked out well for Max, considering he's now at daggers with Western Europe.

*peers inside brain*

It does seem that the thread never got past the fourth circle! Though that OT spark has currently increased its odds of escaping from those dark recesses by a substantial percent.

Slightly more seriously, but does no one else feel bad for Kyr? Poor guy, if we go with Cass's proposed naval exercise(s) he'll be one of the few sizable navies left out. First he gets his diplomat singed and now he can't even play with everyone else on my doorstep? Quite the short end of the stick!

Anyhow, there are quite a few good ideas floating about in this netherworld called the Discussion Thread. I don't have terribly much to add beyond being ready to deal with whatever you "damnsecularists" happen to throw my way.

Going back to the African conflict thingy, I was under the impression that Chemaki would be the one initiating it? Though, of course, if everyone is looking at me to start another thread I'll be happy too. I do have a knack for pressing that "New Topic" button. It's a talent that few others possess.

[Chrinthanium]

I've started 100 times as many threads in the last year than you have. My God's bigger than your God, and my heretics are fire retardant. Nananana doodooo!

Seriously, though:

If Kemet doesn't want military ships crossing his Canal, then sobeit. WE'll just go around Africa, Wang CHunging our way to the Med.

[Chemaki]

Going back to the African conflict thingy, I was under the impression that Chemaki would be the one initiating it? Though, of course, if everyone is looking at me to start another thread I'll be happy too. I do have a knack for pressing that "New Topic" button. It's a talent that few others possess.

Well, the whole idea I have is the Ghamadullan military crossing into your turf, and Khemet's to 'reacquire' some political refugees. So I can either do it, from the viewpoint of the refugees/military about the cross over the border, or you can do it, from the viewpoint of locals/managers of the refugee camp/camp guards. Regardless, the opening post would require some co-operation, since it is Khemet's/Aero's land, but my people, so we'd need to read up over each other's cultures and histories to 'figure out' how a refugee situation would happen in the first place (although I guess we could RP this from the very source, which would be a Juntau-Nieger conflict) and its finer details, before we go into the pan-Saharan conflict (official name stamp applied).

[Modravia]

Having reached the point wherein I'm satisfied with my factbook on the off site, it'd be nice to establish Hironeidan's overall position in the international community.

If it's foreign backing for Hironeidan you're looking for, the Modravian Commonwealth is always looking for allies and/or places to export its political ideology to. As soon as I get around to writing it down, that is. For now, assume something of your standard leftist fare combined with promotion based on skill and merit and the internal technocracy of the late post-Stalin Soviet Union.

Allies/friends of convenience is fine too.

[Maxen von Bismarck]

Going back to the African conflict thingy, I was under the impression that Chemaki would be the one initiating it? Though, of course, if everyone is looking at me to start another thread I'll be happy too. I do have a knack for pressing that "New Topic" button. It's a talent that few others possess.

Well, the whole idea I have is the Ghamadullan military crossing into your turf, and Khemet's to 'reacquire' some political refugees. So I can either do it, from the viewpoint of the refugees/military about the cross over the border, or you can do it, from the viewpoint of locals/managers of the refugee camp/camp guards. Regardless, the opening post would require some co-operation, since it is Khemet's/Aero's land, but my people, so we'd need to read up over each other's cultures and histories to 'figure out' how a refugee situation would happen in the first place (although I guess we could RP this from the very source, which would be a Juntau-Nieger conflict) and its finer details, before we go into the pan-Saharan conflict (official name stamp applied).

My internet is on and off until I get back to the uni, but I'll be happy to post something on Sunday. If that's okay with you?

[Chemaki]

Sure, I can do that.

[Dra-pol]

Kemet's on a one-way sealane to a Bonstocking, I see. Good to know some things haven't changed!

Now, it has been suggested to me that maybe the time has come to think about a post-Spyr AMW. This is not something that I think any of us who RPd with him (or, indeed, had the pleasure of reading his curve-setting factbook) are ever really going to be enthusiastic about, but with his account having CTE quite some months ago I think perhaps it is time to move on.

However, as has been put to me, I agree that we should first of all take care to preserve his factbook, both because it's an interesting read and a good example for newcomers, and because we hope he'll some day return to pick up the pieces. On that note, I also agree with the suggestion that we should try to assign all of the world's remaining population before we give away Spyr's land. We're not exactly short of excess space or population, these days.

Some members may be wondering why this seems like such a big deal when we cast off other claims within days of their account's CTE, but Spyr's one of the original AMWers, and perhaps the only one whose claim remained essentially unchanged from the start (granted, borders shifted once but within the same region and without breaking the continuity of the claim).

Even Dra-pol made a big change early on, and that brings me to the second part of the post...


Apparently at least one or two of you remember that AMW's confused adolescence saw Dra-pol shift from ill-defined East Asian jungles to the tidy confines of a North Asian peninsula, a move undertaken for convenience's sake in view of other prospective AMW states existing at the time. Now isolated by the increasingly pungent corpse of the Strainist zombie, I'm seriously contemplating a return to newly-vacant South East Asia. It's something I considered around the last reboot, but decided against. Unfortunately, Spyr hasn't returned, and I can't honestly remember any other reasons behind my decision at the time. Maybe someone short-lived was there at the time?

I've been putting-off a much needed and almost total over-haul of Dra-pol's factbook in any case, so now I'm thinking, why not go the whole hog, and put Dra-pol back where it was supposed to be? The poor Drapoel were supposed to live in humid jungles, and they've been getting bloody snowed on, after all.

I just can't help feeling that I'm forgetting a good reason to not do this. I'm sure it's something Spyr would point out if he were here, so I'm asking if anyone thinks it would be a bad idea, I suppose.

It's likely that Dra-pol relocated would cover Burma and adjacent parts of Thailand, and I'd make efforts to keep the population close to that of the Korean peninsula. Walmington's city-sized foothold on the coast would remain, though I'm not yet sure where, and probably the Thai areas would be equivalent to the old south, still under occupation.

Now, this would be Yashiman occupation. But if we conceed, for now, Spyr's demise, we should perhaps also put to sleep Yashima. If I can find someone else to bring capitalist imperialism and Christian preachiness (Walmington works to a point, but more manpower is required, and ideally from someone who isn't... me. That's no fun.), perhaps we can erase Yashima until such time as Spyr returns?


Sharing of thoughts on all parts of this post much encouraged.

[Chrinthanium]

Post Spyrliptic AMW.. what a terrible thought

But, one that must be considered nonetheless. While giving away his land LAST is a great idea, I think moving Drapol to SE Asia works well. Though, I must say, I cannot think of a reason not to other than a potentially Earth shattering realization that the Chrinthani can keep you well under control.

I'm all for it.

If there is no Spyr, then there is no Yashima either.

[Belgeland]

Well there were several centuries of European imperial dabbling in S.E. Asia that might help explain the anti-Christian tendencies of the Drapoel, even the Chrinnies might have tried to invade Dra-pol at some point in the past. Maybe it isn't one enemy, but many, that are responsible for the nation being so insular. Perhaps there is a Hong Kong/Macau type situation over there, rather than a large area under foreign occupation, maybe both?

I am of the notion that it is time to take Spyr off the map (maybe that'll make him return!) as well as Yashima. Given that the Great War has greatly changed the way the Pacific War would have worked, it doesn't really make sense to keep it as it is now anyway. At the very least, moving Dra-pol and removing the rest would allow East Asia to move out of the current stasis it has been in recently.

I would be willing to have a Macau-esque port over there (as my 'empire' would have been based solely off such ports, with no major land holding) if it helps, though it wouldn't be a hugely Christian colony, perhaps a large, private missionary was based there, perhaps they also had some mercenaries to 'defend' the city-port from the Drapoel, perhaps invading Dra-pol and attempting to control it at some point - with it obviously becoming too expensive to continue and the missionary collapsing due to finances. I don't really want any sort of strength over there, anything I had now would be a relatively minor port, long since been made irrelevant by modern shipping, primarily being a way for black market goods to move in and out of Dra-pol or something. If this doesn't help, then please ignore it. Just a thought off the cuff.

[Old Tyrannia]

Kemet's on a one-way sealane to a Bonstocking, I see. Good to know some things haven't changed!

I'm not sure what this means, so I think it would be wise to ask...

[Maxen von Bismarck]

Kemet's on a one-way sealane to a Bonstocking, I see. Good to know some things haven't changed!

I'm not sure what this means, so I think it would be wise to ask...

A fellow who tried to close the Straits of Malacca and got gang banged.

[Old Tyrannia]

I'm not sure what this means, so I think it would be wise to ask...

A fellow who tried to close the Straits of Malacca and got gang banged.

I'm not closing the canal, I'm just stopping naval vessels from getting through. I mean, these are paranoid Communists- do you think they would ever allow another nation to send military forces through their greatest economic asset?

[Chrinthanium]

I swear you are way too reactionary. Paranoid communists? Yes, Chrinthanium, the land of the pot-smoking surfer hippies who lives to drink, screw and get high is really interested in starting military action with Kemet. You'd be allowing us to fuck with Areopagitican, and flex our military muscle in his direction with that certain come hither look. Not to mention the revenue lost by not allowing military ships through the canal.

In future, if Kemet ever changes his claim, the canal should be NPC to avoid this kind of stuff.

[The Crooked Beat]

Ah, well, that is quite a change you're proposing, Dra-pol, and as I'm not one known for catching nuances my advice in that respect probably wouldn't be excellent. If we hadn't undergone so many revisions from when AMW was started, and if Spyr were still around, things would of course be very different, but I can't help but think that a relocated Dra-pol, if not strictly a good idea, may still be worth a try. Dra-pol is definitely one of AMW's most interesting nations, most enduring for sure, and as one of few surviving AMWers who ever saw Drapoel arms in full bloom, I'd say anything that leads to a more active role for Dra-pol is desirable. There simply isn't very much going on at that end of the world, after all. At the same time, it is a big change, and I too can't help but feel that there must be something that we're failing to consider at present. If you decide that this is something worth doing, you'll certainly have my full backing, for what it's worth.

[Chrinthanium]

The dynamics, as I see them, and as were discussed in IRC also, were that it would move it closer to Chrinthanium, potentially giving Drapol more incentive to be so insular. As stated, it's possible that we even tried to invade it during our "land grab" phase.

It would also come with a small Walmingtonian city-state like port along with it, thus giving Walmington another ally that's not just in name only. Chrinthanium would, most likely, be a lot more friendly with the former attempted colonial master. There is also the fact, in my honest opinion, the reason SE Asia isn't filling is because there is no one else there. People come in, finally see the map, and go, "Well, if no one is there... then who do I RP with?"

It also gives me another dynamic: at present Chrinthanium really has no enemies or nations it would consider "less than desirable" to befriend, even if we're not really friends with the African nations. I really like the idea, and would think that, since Drapol started in the jungles of SE Asia, that it probably is best suited for that region of NS.

Just another tossing of my two cents.

[Dra-pol]

((Actually, Bonstock just tried to levy a new transit fee on traffic through Malacca, and in doing so united the world in dislike, so when he started to pursue military ambitions in Asia it wasn't just his direct opponents and their allies, but an intercontinental coalition that fell upon him, keen to rid the world of his -as the Igovians might say- unmutual regime. Even TCB invaded, right? Anyway, that's not what I came to talk about!))

Thanks for the input so far. Apologies in advance: this may be a fairly long post. It's a surprise to me, too, but I find that I'm actually looking forward to getting Dra-pol involved in RP again! Many ideas, suggestions and questions result.

A little bit on the origins of Walmington's involvement, first... Walmington's empire, much like Belgeland's potential one, was chiefly commercial, with outposts at the port city of Mogador, the tiny islands of St.Thomas and Prince's Island, a sort of waystation on the Cape, the tiny economic hub of the (Nilosaharan) Spice Islands, the trade missions of the Ceyloban north shores, and the twin-city concession in Dra-pol. There were never enough Walmingtonians for them to spread themselves thin by trying to colonise half the world. Chrinthanium's a sort-of exception, because it was perceived to be essentially empty for most of its extent, and the Godfreyites (wrongly) imagined that they could control vast areas of land with minimal manpower, and in doing so stake claims to any mineral deposits that may be unearthed... it was probably never intended that they should end up ruling over a large non-Walmingtonian population, but (I'd imagine) their outposts, being based on trade and emerging industries, would have attracted Chrinthani settlers from the countryside and outback, and before they knew it the Walmingtonians were masters of a subject population, putting them at odds with the local powers who suddenly saw their people following someone else's laws and paying someone else's taxes. I (and Walmingtonian historians who haven't been sucked into the romantic imperial mythology) tend to think of the empire in Chrinthanium as having arisen more out of naivety than malice.

Any exceptions beyond that were essentially private ventures by the Wayne family. Waynesia is the obvious example, and again had at first a lot to do with a perceived emptiness arising from an extremely low population density prior to Walmingtonian involvement. The Waynes went chasing diamonds, big game, and ranch land, not so much military victories and imperial subjects, and went at first in the name of family profit, not of king or country.

* * * * * * * * * *

Walmington's involvement in Dra-pol is also a private construct, and one that I think may be helped enormously by a relocation to Burma and western Thailand.
The Henry Wayne Company of the Cape would have arrived on the shores of the medieval hermit kingdom at the dawn of the C20th chasing legends of rubies the size of fists, and forced the Drapoel to open the gates just a crack, with a string of complicated and unequal treaties couched in language designed to manipulate the sheltered imperial court. The treaties were regarded by the Company as giving it exclusive economic rights in Dra-pol, and by the Drapoel as a sort of mercenary contract obliging the Company's ships to prevent further unwanted intrusions by the industrial countries.

In the first half of the C20th the Company effectively turned the Drapoel Emperor into a sort of employee answerable to the shareholders, making Dra-pol a Company asset. Possibly by then the Company could have restored Walmingtonian commercial interests in Chrinthanium, too, enabling some Chrinthanis (especially those with a Walmingtonian or Godfreyite connection in their history, and/or those priviliged/conservative sorts unhappy with the liberal direction the Empire was taking?) to get around the Godfreyite monopoly in Dra-pol by working for or with the Waynes?

So, Dra-pol wasn't actually a Walmingtonian colony, more a client state.

During this time, I'd imagine that the likes of Belgeland and all the Catholic countries would, for one reason or another, be deeply unhappy with the Company monopoly. At the time, tiny Walmington was making an absolute killing from North American coal, iron, fish, and banking services, West African phosphates, cocoa, coffee, and cotton, South African diamonds, wool, and lamb, East African spices, and Ceyloban rubber and low-grown tea, so the addition of Drapoel rubies, sapphires, pearls, hardwood, opiates, and oil probably made Walmington by some margin the richest country in the world, while the Protestant Godfreyite Church was the only one allowed to conduct missionary work in Dra-pol, where the population was exploding.

With Spyr gone, we need someone else to have hosted in the 1920s and '30s the Drapoel government in exile. Of course it was lead by none other than the latterly-infamous 'Brother Sulo', but at the time it may have just appeared that, well, this was not only an anti-Walmingtonian movement but also the first republican group in Drapoel history. So it may have been supported by those who hated the Protestants' spiritual monopoly, or those who hated the Cape Company's economic monopoly and Walmington's imperial protectionism.

The late 1930s saw the Drapoel Free Army (directed by Sulo) gaining ground against the Company-backed Emperor and, being directed by a profit-driven private company with little or no governmental over-sight and desperately little manpower for direct policing, the counter-insurgency campaign was one of the most brutal chapters in world history, bombing a troublesome village off the map being deemed easier in the long-run than building and staffing a police station.

I think the withdrawal by 1945 from the north still works, with RL Kachin, Sagaing, Shan, Chin, Magwe, and Mandalay forming the initial Suloist Free Republic of Dra-pol, but being isolated from the outside world by Company control of the coast to the south (and, nicely, working out at a population not much above that of North Korea). Meanwhile, the south had seen major industrialisation through Company investment, trade with Chrinthanium, and as part of the Godfreyite Empire's role in supplying belligerents in the Great War. In 1948 a southern mutiny is put down harshly, and then in 1950 Suloist forces storm south with greater organisation than the Company thought them capable of (perhaps having brought in military trainers from anti-Walmington European countries?). Thus we get to keep the massive to-and-fro war that ends in stalemate and Sulo's demise. I'm tempted to work in a Belgeland concession somewhere around here, which could be made either by Sulo in return for support against the Walmingtonians, or perhaps more likely by the Company, which negotiates it as some sort of settlement for debts accrued in the conflict? That may not be an essential point for me, but it might be one way to get someone else involved down in this part of the world, and it could even be that one of the highly-developed Twin Cities is given over to Belgeland.

The Three Day War in 1963 is something I'd like to keep for reasons internal to Dra-pol. It's supposed to start when a foreign ship is sunk off the coast, maybe by a suicide speedboat, the Communists (who took power in the north after Sulo's decline in '53) blamed, and the Company able to justify a punative strike on the north. If Belgeland takes a concession, it could be one of their vessels that's destroyed, and maybe the Company reacts because Brussels isn't keen on getting militarily involved itself? As a consequence of the war, the other of the Twin Cities (used to be Hamhung and Hungnam) is perhaps made a direct Company possession, leaving the two most developed cities adjacent to one another, one Walmingtonian and one Belgen.

Still in 1963, after the Three Day War, Protestant missionaries and diplomats are allowed back into the now Kurosite People's Republic as part of the peace deal, but the new temporary Director (Kurosian II) does not tolerate them for long before crucifying the lot. This causes the Company and the Belgens to fortify the perimeter of their concessions and leads to the Company's relative neglect of the wider south, where upon the Red Bamboo guerrilla army emerges and lays siege to the Twin Cities.

Though not directly invested in an imperial sense, Chrinthanium may be alarmed to see these hard-line Kurosite Communists slaughtering Christians and fighting a brutal conflict with the Walmingtonians and Belgens (the latter of whom are perhaps wondering what the hell they've got themselves into, and concentrating mainly on trying to evacuate people through the concession while the Company lobs artillery rounds at wave after wave of peasant militamen), and perhaps be compelled to lend some degree of support to the westerners. I'm not sure how Chrinthanium feels about that, but maybe they take a 'stemming the tide' view to the militant Communists and send a relief force to the Twin Cities with defensively-minded rules-of-engagement? I can see them landing rescue helicopters on the roof of the Belgen governor's residence or something ;)

* * * * * * * * * *

1975 is where my old history becomes harder to transfer, I think. I was going to have Yashima take advantage of the Company's beleaguered state to invade the south and take it for themselves (except the Twin Cities, now perhaps held exclusively by the Company), only to get bogged down with the Red Bamboo. They would then play Quinntonia's old part in the Reunification War in the 1980s, which saw half of the south recovered by Hotan and involved more casualties than I can explain if Walmington has to do it. 2.6 million North Americans can't take-over from 450 million, or even from 19 million Yashimans, since it'd mean the loss of every healthy adult male in Walmington!

But if I just erase those wars I lose a lot of Dra-pol's attitude to the outside world, and I lose Hotan's reputation.

Really, I need most of the south to be occupied come the end of the '63-75 war (Kurosian's Rage), and then much of it to fall in Hotan's '80-88 invasion, which has to cause massive casualties all around, and may or may not end with somebody dropping a tactical nuclear device on the north's forward staging area.

Is there perhaps some scope for an international effort against Kurosian and Hotan? An attempted United Nations with Walmington, Chrinthanium, Belgeland, and perhaps others thinking they can fix the world and stop repeats of the '63 slaughter of Christians in Dra-pol (which did, after all, see hundreds, perhaps thousands of white westerners, including ranking diplomats, wealthy capitalists, and Christian missionaries tortured to death and displayed in public, maybe reported in some of the first globally-distributed and widely-seen television footage).

How it might work:

Kurosian's Rage ends in relative stalemate in 1975, the Communists lacking firepower to dislodge the Company and the Company lacking manpower to subdue the Communists. The Walmingtonian Crown finally steps in and strips the Company of its mandate amidst public outcry over its cruel tactics, taking direct control of the Twin Cities (or half of them, if Belgeland is still involved at this point), and inviting a coalition to 'stabilise and rebuild' South Dra-pol and protect it against Kurosian's fanatical KPRD. This they spend five years doing, while Walmington secretly assassinates Kurosian and wounds his right-hand man, Hotan, who survives to succeed his mentor as Director. Then, in 1980, a recovered Hotan invades the south, bypassing the internationally-policed demilitarised border through a series of assault tunnels dug during those five years.

Thus it is a number of countries that absorb the allied casualties (first time around I was up against seven), Walmington taking the heaviest losses relative to population, South Dra-pol taking the most over-all, and others (Chrinthanium? Belgeland? Virginia? Hironeidan? Niebelunc? Anyone who wants to be a do-gooder, or increase their profile on the world stage, or fight communism, or steal gemstones and smuggle heroin, really, and is prepared to work along-side the Walmingtonians). As the '80s drag on and losses increase, more and more partners abandon the coalition, the UN-or-whatever disintegrates, and a desperate Walmington drops the bomb, stopping Hotan in his tracks. The end result is direct Walmingtonian rule over the Twin Cities, an independent capitalist Republic of Dra-pol full of craters and mass graves and probably under a military junta covering maybe quarter of the country, and a Kurosite People's Republic dominating most of the country, exhausted but feeling that it has stood up to the entire world and caused the collapse of an intercontinental alliance, all hail Hotan!

[Cassanos]

Just real quick, aside from the fact that, naturally, Dra-Pol's line of arguments makes a lot of sense and you have my complete approval (not that you'd need it):

I have tried to keep Nibelunc out of colonial adventures so far, also to limit its influence in the world and maintain the image of a Euro-centric nation. However, I think that a Nibelung involvement in the Drapoel war and subsequent peacekeeping would make a lot of sense.
1. It's just what the Nibs do. Being do-gooders, that is. And, of course, being absolutely horrified by the Company's actions and the military junta, so they'd likely leave the country sooner than others (which might help in dissolving the alliance?).

2. It would give a very nice focal point for Nibelung-Chrinthani relations if they had fought alongside one another during the war, and would also give a suitable reason for a mutual defence agreement.

[The Crooked Beat]

Well, I certainly don't have much to add. It seems as though our dear leader has matters well in hand. Perhaps the military response to Hotan's invasion could have been Aventine-led, or something to that effect, the unexpected bloodiness and brutality of that intervention perhaps setting the Aventine bloc towards its present-day decline? I'm sure we'll be able to work out a suitable set of pretexts.

As an aside, if you're looking for someone to host the Drapoel government-in-exile, I'm seriously considering a return to India, where I'll hopefully be able to stay put. It seems like Hindustan worked best for me, and everything since hasn't really been as good. What I've got in mind is sort of a Hindustan-lite, consisting of Kerala, Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, and Tamil Nadu. Population would of course be huge, 227,297,943 judging by my figures, but I hope you'll all trust me when I say that this country wouldn't exactly be a world power. Probably Brazil-like in terms of wealth and Holland-like in ambition, though I'd imagine that covert government actors would be extremely keen on taking advantage of opportunities offered by our newly-existent golden triangle.

The catch, and it's a big one, is that, if approved, I'm not going to be around for something close on four months after the beginning of February, maybe a post per month maximum. I'm very sorry that I didn't think of this earlier, but I'm still very much interested in AMW and I feel that, if we are still around in four months' time, this could be a positive development. If you gents are leery, I understand completely, but I thought I'd at least throw it out there before it's too late.

Also, take this as Gandvik's official deletion. Might as well let someone else take over in that part of the world.

[Modravia]

I'd imagine that, given the particular regions claimed and the population, it might actually be poorer than Brazil. In any case, this might give Marathas inspiration to do something other than post about domestic affairs.

[Chrinthanium]

TCB: I've no problem with putting you on hold for four months until you can come back and recreate your Hindustan-lite. You're an asset and a good player.

Drapol:

Chrinthanium's a sort-of exception, because it was perceived to be essentially empty for most of its extent, and the Godfreyites (wrongly) imagined that they could control vast areas of land with minimal manpower, and in doing so stake claims to any mineral deposits that may be unearthed... it was probably never intended that they should end up ruling over a large non-Walmingtonian population, but (I'd imagine) their outposts, being based on trade and emerging industries, would have attracted Chrinthani settlers from the countryside and outback, and before they knew it the Walmingtonians were masters of a subject population, putting them at odds with the local powers who suddenly saw their people following someone else's laws and paying someone else's taxes. I (and Walmingtonian historians who haven't been sucked into the romantic imperial mythology) tend to think of the empire in Chrinthanium as having arisen more out of naivety than malice.

Now, I have an idea of Walmingtonian history works in Chrinthanium, something which I've been needing to get from you for some time. The way you have it would actually, most likely, cause us to not be so upset about things. Percieved threats from Walmington turning out to be a really big misunderstanding (for lack of a better word).

Though Chrinthani history itself has changed greatly. There actually was Chrinthani empire there already when Europe and Walmington came calling. Though, like Walmington, it was a loose empire where minimal force was used to maintain it. Perhaps that's how the Walmingtonians were able to get their settlements. The Chrinthani allowed it until their people seemed to "switch sides" causing us to get upset about it and, eventually, kick you out.

Any exceptions beyond that were essentially private ventures by the Wayne family. Waynesia is the obvious example, and again had at first a lot to do with a perceived emptiness arising from an extremely low population density prior to Walmingtonian involvement. The Waynes went chasing diamonds, big game, and ranch land, not so much military victories and imperial subjects, and went at first in the name of family profit, not of king or country.

* * * * * * * * * *

In the first half of the C20th the Company effectively turned the Drapoel Emperor into a sort of employee answerable to the shareholders, making Dra-pol a Company asset. Possibly by then the Company could have restored Walmingtonian commercial interests in Chrinthanium, too, enabling some Chrinthanis (especially those with a Walmingtonian or Godfreyite connection in their history, and/or those priviliged/conservative sorts unhappy with the liberal direction the Empire was taking?) to get around the Godfreyite monopoly in Dra-pol by working for or with the Waynes?

I'm good with Walmingtonian commercial interests returning to Chrinthanium by this point. I've no problem with this.

So, Dra-pol wasn't actually a Walmingtonian colony, more a client state.

During this time, I'd imagine that the likes of Belgeland and all the Catholic countries would, for one reason or another, be deeply unhappy with the Company monopoly. At the time, tiny Walmington was making an absolute killing from North American coal, iron, fish, and banking services, West African phosphates, cocoa, coffee, and cotton, South African diamonds, wool, and lamb, East African spices, and Ceyloban rubber and low-grown tea, so the addition of Drapoel rubies, sapphires, pearls, hardwood, opiates, and oil probably made Walmington by some margin the richest country in the world, while the Protestant Godfreyite Church was the only one allowed to conduct missionary work in Dra-pol, where the population was exploding.

With Spyr gone, we need someone else to have hosted in the 1920s and '30s the Drapoel government in exile. Of course it was lead by none other than the latterly-infamous 'Brother Sulo', but at the time it may have just appeared that, well, this was not only an anti-Walmingtonian movement but also the first republican group in Drapoel history. So it may have been supported by those who hated the Protestants' spiritual monopoly, or those who hated the Cape Company's economic monopoly and Walmington's imperial protectionism.

Chrinthanium could host the government in exile as some sort of 'We know how you feel' policy.

Though not directly invested in an imperial sense, Chrinthanium may be alarmed to see these hard-line Kurosite Communists slaughtering Christians and fighting a brutal conflict with the Walmingtonians and Belgens (the latter of whom are perhaps wondering what the hell they've got themselves into, and concentrating mainly on trying to evacuate people through the concession while the Company lobs artillery rounds at wave after wave of peasant militamen), and perhaps be compelled to lend some degree of support to the westerners. I'm not sure how Chrinthanium feels about that, but maybe they take a 'stemming the tide' view to the militant Communists and send a relief force to the Twin Cities with defensively-minded rules-of-engagement? I can see them landing rescue helicopters on the roof of the Belgen governor's residence or something

Yes, the Chrinthani would be rather upset by this. We would assist in trying to evacuate people, keeping the peace, and that sort of military involvement. It furthers the idea that Chrinthanium isn't really interested in making war, but becoming a force used to keep the peace. That the Chrinthani military may be able to sustain a war, but defensive/rescue purposes are its main focus.

* * * * * * * * * *

1975 is where my old history becomes harder to transfer, I think. I was going to have Yashima take advantage of the Company's beleaguered state to invade the south and take it for themselves (except the Twin Cities, now perhaps held exclusively by the Company), only to get bogged down with the Red Bamboo. They would then play Quinntonia's old part in the Reunification War in the 1980s, which saw half of the south recovered by Hotan and involved more casualties than I can explain if Walmington has to do it. 2.6 million North Americans can't take-over from 450 million, or even from 19 million Yashimans, since it'd mean the loss of every healthy adult male in Walmington!

But if I just erase those wars I lose a lot of Dra-pol's attitude to the outside world, and I lose Hotan's reputation.

Really, I need most of the south to be occupied come the end of the '63-75 war (Kurosian's Rage), and then much of it to fall in Hotan's '80-88 invasion, which has to cause massive casualties all around, and may or may not end with somebody dropping a tactical nuclear device on the north's forward staging area.

Is there perhaps some scope for an international effort against Kurosian and Hotan? An attempted United Nations with Walmington, Chrinthanium, Belgeland, and perhaps others thinking they can fix the world and stop repeats of the '63 slaughter of Christians in Dra-pol (which did, after all, see hundreds, perhaps thousands of white westerners, including ranking diplomats, wealthy capitalists, and Christian missionaries tortured to death and displayed in public, maybe reported in some of the first globally-distributed and widely-seen television footage).

How it might work:

Kurosian's Rage ends in relative stalemate in 1975, the Communists lacking firepower to dislodge the Company and the Company lacking manpower to subdue the Communists. The Walmingtonian Crown finally steps in and strips the Company of its mandate amidst public outcry over its cruel tactics, taking direct control of the Twin Cities (or half of them, if Belgeland is still involved at this point), and inviting a coalition to 'stabilise and rebuild' South Dra-pol and protect it against Kurosian's fanatical KPRD. This they spend five years doing, while Walmington secretly assassinates Kurosian and wounds his right-hand man, Hotan, who survives to succeed his mentor as Director. Then, in 1980, a recovered Hotan invades the south, bypassing the internationally-policed demilitarised border through a series of assault tunnels dug during those five years.

Thus it is a number of countries that absorb the allied casualties (first time around I was up against seven), Walmington taking the heaviest losses relative to population, South Dra-pol taking the most over-all, and others (Chrinthanium? Belgeland? Virginia? Hironeidan? Niebelunc? Anyone who wants to be a do-gooder, or increase their profile on the world stage, or fight communism, or steal gemstones and smuggle heroin, really, and is prepared to work along-side the Walmingtonians). As the '80s drag on and losses increase, more and more partners abandon the coalition, the UN-or-whatever disintegrates, and a desperate Walmington drops the bomb, stopping Hotan in his tracks. The end result is direct Walmingtonian rule over the Twin Cities, an independent capitalist Republic of Dra-pol full of craters and mass graves and probably under a military junta covering maybe quarter of the country, and a Kurosite People's Republic dominating most of the country, exhausted but feeling that it has stood up to the entire world and caused the collapse of an intercontinental alliance, all hail Hotan!

I'm pretty open to you using Chrinthanium as you see fit for your history. I look forward to being more active with you on AMW!

[Modravia]

After discussing it with Beddgelert wherein I expressed a desire to be a heavy supporter of North Dra-pol historically, it was suggested to me that I take on the role which Spyr held in Dra-pol as a way of helping out a political movement and, later, a nation which is like-minded ideologically, if not in practice.