AMW Big Discussion Thread

[Iansisle]

Ah, Napoleon. I'd be glad to get this all hammered down, so I can add it to my own factbook. I feel bad, having been ignoring the Shield a bit lately for all the excitement in North America.

Y'know, the more history is discussed, the more the Romans are beaten up and invaded. I'm beginning to feel like a red-headed step child.

HEY! That's my shtick! Back the hell off, hook-nose!

On a more helpful note, the Napoleonic Wars are quite important to the Shield as well. Most likely by early nineteenth century, the Shield is seen as one of -- if not the -- most powerful countries in Europe. During the mid-eighteenth century it fought a war on three fronts (against Gandvik, an alliance of Nibelung states, and Geletia) and emerged more-or-less victorious on all three fronts, then turned its attention to the east and absorbed tracts of land in Depkazia and elsewhere almost the size of Europe itself. During this time, however, the tactics it had pioneered during the War of the Nibelung Federation were swiftly outpaced by developments in Western Europe and the social and bureaucratic cost of territorial absorption led to virtual stagnation. As the only conflicts in the late eighteenth century were against Gandvik and Depkazia, where things worked out just fine, nobody really noticed that the High King had no clothes.

If we were to pick real-life powers as an analogue to the general role our countries play in AMW's Napoleonic Wars (ie: Valendia as France (duh), WoS as the UK, Beddgelert as Spanish/Russian partisans, etc) then I think Austria is the most natural fit for the Shield (and not just because of the pimp uniforms). As for casus belli, the most natural cause would seem to be various meddling amongst the Nibelung states, which the Shield regarded as its own private playground at that point. The Valendians could, for example, support an anti-Shieldian throne claimant or revolution in Bohemia, which would force the Empire to respond. With all the great military minds of the Shield from the earlier wars either dead or senile, bing-bang-boom we have our Austerlitz.

I also like the concept of, like in RL, several smaller, interconnected wars, allowing the conflict to drag out over a longer period and giving Napoleon a larger impact on history. Shattered by defeat, the Shield retreats to lick its wounds while Napoleon goes to add pressure on England, who responds by subsidizing the Shield, who emerge again and are smashed again. Lather, rinse, and repeat as much as needed. I believe Napoleon occupied Vienna four times IRL, after all! This can all be supplemented by secondary conflicts (like Russia-Turkey IRL) between the Shield and Gandvik, with the latter seeking to take advantage of the former's difficulties.

There was also the bit about, after unsuccessfully trying to bar Napoleon's march to Constantinople, the Shield switches sides and joins him in the march, only to be picked apart by Celts (after the Valendians presumably ignored our warnings about how fucking scary those mountains are, no for real). I always liked that bit because it allows the Shield to lose the same war twice -- as I said, Chrin, back off!

For Waterloo-a-like, I'm happy to lend whatever battlefield you need. Perhaps we could even cement that distant fondness that the English feel for the Shieldians with a Blücher-like intervention when the English were hard-pressed. It would be a rare moment of glory for Shieldian arms -- I suppose we can have one or two of those, despite my better judgement! (Fun side note: apparently Blücher in AMW was English.)

[Chrinthanium]

As I said in the discussion thread, and following J&H in the whole hole-filling thing, I would like to request a slight modification to my claim, by adding the Euro-hole that exists between my own claim and Cass' claim. Realistically speaking, no one will ever claim that place, not only because is small, but because is in between two great powers. That hole also greatly bothers me, through that is a matter more about aesthetics and uniformity so is not very important.

Now, about numbers:

Luxembourg: 520,672
Saarland: 990,718
Rhineland-Palatinate west to the Rhine: 3.360,610
Total: 4,872,000

Valendia: 106,311,570
Total: 111,183,570

It it's necessary, i'll make some concessions. Not on territory obviously because then the whole point of doing this would be lost, so maybe lowering my GDP and per capita?

Also, I have an idea for a small secondary claim in Africa (because that continent really needs more movement) which goes along the lines of BG's proposal, but much more crazier. I'll most more about it later when I have it fleshed out

I'll reply to this over here since it's definitely more discussion.

I see your point about giving up territory. Fact of the matter was, when I offered to do it there were 2 reasons: 1) the large size of the proposed expansion and 2) it wasn't incorporated much into the claim yet.

To point 1.... I was originally adding 32 million people to the claim and decided that one of the best ways to counterbalance the addition beyond any type of GDP/GDP per capita adjustment was to reduce some of my European holdings. Quite honestly, I didn't want to become a third-world nation in economic terms to justify the claim. Not that anyone would require me to do so, but I knew I was going to have to do a few cuts to the economy.

To point 2.... Since I hadn't really thrown it into the mix, it was the easiest part of the claim to eliminate. Also, ever since I added it, I kept hearing in the back of my mind all those times where I said it could be a nice claim for a new player in a continent rather lacking in room for such a person. Thus, it became part of my idea to redo the empire. My current expansion added 2 million-ish total to the population. So there wasn't much of an adjustment to be made overall.

No, I don't think you have to give up anything for your addition. But, one can argue that if you give up some here and take some there, very few other adjustments have to be made overall. Not that AMW is really worried about all that too much these days. I think we're easier on larger claims than when I first arrived. We even have the Asian Exception (allowing for a larger claim due to the populations in Asia without as much issue) in AMW now.

All that to say this.... I think you expansion makes sense. It wasn't terrifically populated and it filled in a gap that was less-likely to attract attention than a most-of-Austria-part-of-Bavaria claim.

Onto other things.....

As I rework the Roman Empire in my mind, I really am wanting to keep a competition with the British and Americans going here. While in the modern day we probably don't compete in the same manner, in the past we probably did gobble up land here and there. Some of it still part of Rome, some if it other nations now. I've really, seriously been mulling over a final expansion of the Roman Empire in a global capacity more similar to how the Portuguese did it with trading ports up and down the coasts of Africa and Asia. Granted, it won't be that many ports, though. So, I want to throw this out to your collective critique and questioning.

To this end, after reviewing some history, I'd like to suggest the following final expansion of the Roman Empire. Everything listed in this request/discussion is the balance of everything I thought about adding. It's a bit large, population wise, but I will still be less populous than Walmington. It doesn't add entirely too much land to the empire itself. I will also give a brief idea as to why I believe it can work in the context of history of the empire. It would be nice to be granted all of it, but AMW doesn't always do that, so I'm just "going for the gusto" here with it and leave it up to discussion.

1: Western Cape Province, South Africa. Population: 6,116,300 (2014 estimate via Wikipedia). Roman explorers and traders sailing from the Congolese shores found a smattering of trading posts along the Southwestern coast of Africa which coalesce into a region of the empire. An important post for the Romans as it becomes not only an important stop between burgeoning trade between Rome and Asia, but a necessary stop along the long and arduous route from the Mediterranean to the Pacific. After abandoning commercial pursuits in the Congo, the tip of Africa becomes the focal point of Roman interaction in the African continent outside of the Mediterranean. A full province of the Roman Empire, the empire is responsible for its defense and its citizens are full citizens of the Roman Empire. In the modern age it remains one of Rome's most important possessions.

2: Kozhikode District (Calicut) of Kerala, India. Population: 2,878,498 (2001 estimate via Wikipedia, 2,613,683). Vasco de Gama lands in 1498 as part of a trade mission of the Roman Empire, establishes a trading port in Calicut, and begins Roman interaction in Asia. Spices, silk, tea, and other exotic goodies from Asia gain a foothold in the Roman Empire over time (tea, though, not nearly as important to Rome as coffee, thus I will always defer to Walmington as truly introducing Europe to tea). From "Calicut", the Romans reached the western coastline of the Chrinthani continent and established colonies there that would, eventually, fold into what would become the Chrinthani Empire. It is a special-administrative region of the Roman Empire which is not a full province. It is a client-state of the Roman Empire. The citizens have the Latin Rights and can attain full citizenship if they move to other locations within the Roman Empire, specifically the European provinces or Roman South Africa.

3: Hong Kong, PRC. Population: 7,112,688 (July 2014 estimate via CIA World Factbook) The last-remaining Roman possession on the East Asian mainland is one of its most magnificent cities. A centuries-old trading-post-turned-financial-center, Margaritalum remains the empire's most important centers of commerce. It became the first port from which Asian wares would be transferred to the Roman Empire. It would be the first point-of-contact for the Romans to the far east. A blend of Roman and Asian culture, the city is a special-administrative district of the empire with a special tax status and capitalism rum amok. The Romans are responsible for its defense and all citizens are Roman citizens.

Total proposed additions to the Roman Empire: 16,107,486, bringing Roman population globally to 142,869,772.

With regards to internal restructuring, under the claim already approved, I'm probably going to drain about 1 million from Jamaica and move that into the European provinces as well as about 3 million from the Brazilian portion of the empire and fold them into the European provinces as well. Should this final expansion go ahead, I would drain an additional 1 million from Western Cape Province and about 1 million from Calicut and fold them into the European provinces. Furthermore, the Brazilian portion of the empire will function like I have described Calicut, where it is a client-state of the Roman Empire with its citizens having the modern-day-version of the Latin Rights.

[The Crooked Beat]

To chime in very briefly, I'm personally a bit uneasy about the idea of moving population from peripheral areas to what I think we can all agree are Rome's core regions, not so much because I think Chrin would necessarily abuse the privilege, but because I think it sets a bad precedent. Granted, Walmington, if I'm not mistaken, filled Denmark with quite a few more people than live there in RL, but Italy and most of Spain and Portugal by themselves, as we've already established, make Rome one of the largest nations in AMW, and the numbers involved don't seem at all likely to change the strategic balance very much at all. I suppose I'd just like a bit of background on why this would be happening.

[Chrinthanium]

To chime in very briefly, I'm personally a bit uneasy about the idea of moving population from peripheral areas to what I think we can all agree are Rome's core regions, not so much because I think Chrin would necessarily abuse the privilege, but because I think it sets a bad precedent. Granted, Walmington, if I'm not mistaken, filled Denmark with quite a few more people than live there in RL, but Italy and most of Spain and Portugal by themselves, as we've already established, make Rome one of the largest nations in AMW, and the numbers involved don't seem at all likely to change the strategic balance very much at all. I suppose I'd just like a bit of background on why this would be happening.

Well, it was simply because of the way the Roman Empire works, regardless of big cities elsewhere, there's nothing more important than being in the mob in Rome where you can, if you're clever enough, potentially grab a position of power. I've always seem the "home provinces" as where most far-flung Romans would wish to be because of it being the nexus of Roman power. I doubt it would shift the balance of power in Europe. It isn't millions of people thrown into the military, just several million scattered across the major cities of the empire. That doesn't mean they can't, in the modern day, make a name for themselves locally. And, if TCB objects strongly, I can just leave the populations where they are. Of course, the population rule in AMW as far as I remember is that you can shift the populations around within your claim to add to already-existing cities/regions or to build new ones that aren't there IRL (provided a city could, potentially, be there logically) providing that the overall population doesn't exceed or reduce what the total population would be IRL of all those areas combined.

Again, though, if you feel that strongly, I'll not do it.

[Beddgelert]

I actually think TCB raises a good point, but of course have my own completely different thoughts, based largely on Chrin's response.

The notion of Romans flocking to Rome makes sense to me. It seems likely to be a hyper-city, dwarfing the Empire's second city, whatever it may be, as London does Manchester/Birmingham/whatever-other-stupid-suggestion-you-have-for-the-UK's-second-city. Most nations have a large capital, but then several other cities only a bit smaller. A few, such as the UK, are overly reliant on one mega city. I can very much see a Rome that is still centre of Empire being exactly such a hub.

But, it seems to me that the way to proceed would be to draw people from Milan, Madrid, and maybe other cities such as Lisbon, and stick them in Rome. Turn them into other large-ish cities, like Vallencia, Naples, Seville, Turin, and so on, rather than being the massive cities they are.

Most of WoS's empire is dirt-poor and probably a net drain on British power in an age when supersonic jets and guided-missile warships are needed to protect it. If the Roman Empire serves mainly to boost the population of wealthy European Rome, the British are going to want to add something significant to their holdings to keep pace.

[Nova Gaul]

I actually think TCB raises a good point, but of course have my own completely different thoughts, based largely on Chrin's response.

The notion of Romans flocking to Rome makes sense to me. It seems likely to be a hyper-city, dwarfing the Empire's second city, whatever it may be, as London does Manchester/Birmingham/whatever-other-stupid-suggestion-you-have-for-the-UK's-second-city. Most nations have a large capital, but then several other cities only a bit smaller. A few, such as the UK, are overly reliant on one mega city. I can very much see a Rome that is still centre of Empire being exactly such a hub.

But, it seems to me that the way to proceed would be to draw people from Milan, Madrid, and maybe other cities such as Lisbon, and stick them in Rome. Turn them into other large-ish cities, like Vallencia, Naples, Seville, Turin, and so on, rather than being the massive cities they are.

Most of WoS's empire is dirt-poor and probably a net drain on British power in an age when supersonic jets and guided-missile warships are needed to protect it. If the Roman Empire serves mainly to boost the population of wealthy European Rome, the British are going to want to add something significant to their holdings to keep pace.

I think that's called the 'Rank-Size' rule in the made-up subject of Human Geography BG. You can add Korea to the list. Don't bother going outside Seoul. Don't.

I don't see a problem with your additions Chrin, personally. It makes sense, if Rome is to be a proper empire as such, although I think BG is right that is would spur on Walmington at least to keep pace. It seems Valendia really has no imperial interests, because they have Switzerland I suppose.

However I would add something from my own end. If you do claim Hong Kong, I'd like to add Taiwan to Japan's claim. I've been thinking about this for a while, but did not want to seem overly ambitious. But to me it makes sense, given Taiwan is so close to the Ryukyu's that Japan would have colonized it, and it Hong Kong is rampantly capitalist you'll need some people to (or to have) trade (or traded) with. It has a largeish population (22 million) but no natural resources, like Japan itself, so I don't think the addition would really alter my claim all too much. And I can make up a war in my past. Maybe the Japanese got a taste for war after fighting with the pirates, and conquered Taiwan in about 1910.

In any case the claim (Taiwan) is not hugely important to my own, but I think fairly sensible, as all this talk of the great empire's would have Japan hopping up and down so as not to be forgotten. Taiwan would (especially if it was militarily conquered and contain a different people) really give Japan a claim at being a proper empire (though a smaller regional one) along the lines of the English and Romans. As I said tough, I'll not object at all if I encounter resistance to the idea. But I support your claim Chrin.

[Chrinthanium]

I think that's called the 'Rank-Size' rule in the made-up subject of Human Geography BG. You can add Korea to the list. Don't bother going outside Seoul. Don't.

I don't see a problem with your additions Chrin, personally. It makes sense, if Rome is to be a proper empire as such, although I think BG is right that is would spur on Walmington at least to keep pace. It seems Valendia really has no imperial interests, because they have Switzerland I suppose.

However I would add something from my own end. If you do claim Hong Kong, I'd like to add Taiwan to Japan's claim. I've been thinking about this for a while, but did not want to seem overly ambitious. But to me it makes sense, given Taiwan is so close to the Ryukyu's that Japan would have colonized it, and it Hong Kong is rampantly capitalist you'll need some people to (or to have) trade (or traded) with. It has a largeish population (22 million) but no natural resources, like Japan itself, so I don't think the addition would really alter my claim all too much. And I can make up a war in my past. Maybe the Japanese got a taste for war after fighting with the pirates, and conquered Taiwan in about 1910.

In any case the claim (Taiwan) is not hugely important to my own, but I think fairly sensible, as all this talk of the great empire's would have Japan hopping up and down so as not to be forgotten. Taiwan would (especially if it was militarily conquered and contain a different people) really give Japan a claim at being a proper empire (though a smaller regional one) along the lines of the English and Romans. As I said tough, I'll not object at all if I encounter resistance to the idea. But I support your claim Chrin.

Personally, I have no issue with you claiming Taiwan. I really can't have an issue with a 22-ish million addition when reviewing my recent history.

I actually think TCB raises a good point, but of course have my own completely different thoughts, based largely on Chrin's response.

The notion of Romans flocking to Rome makes sense to me. It seems likely to be a hyper-city, dwarfing the Empire's second city, whatever it may be, as London does Manchester/Birmingham/whatever-other-stupid-suggestion-you-have-for-the-UK's-second-city. Most nations have a large capital, but then several other cities only a bit smaller. A few, such as the UK, are overly reliant on one mega city. I can very much see a Rome that is still centre of Empire being exactly such a hub.

But, it seems to me that the way to proceed would be to draw people from Milan, Madrid, and maybe other cities such as Lisbon, and stick them in Rome. Turn them into other large-ish cities, like Vallencia, Naples, Seville, Turin, and so on, rather than being the massive cities they are.

Most of WoS's empire is dirt-poor and probably a net drain on British power in an age when supersonic jets and guided-missile warships are needed to protect it. If the Roman Empire serves mainly to boost the population of wealthy European Rome, the British are going to want to add something significant to their holdings to keep pace.

Well, Rome is quite the center of the empire. While IRL Milan is the financial capital of Italy, and Rome its political capital, in AMW, Rome is everything to the empire. Hong Kong, you say? Definitely a megacity in terms of population and power within the empire, but it isn't Rome no matter how many people and skyscrapers it can jam onto the Pearl River Delta. It doesn't matter how many Spaniards live in Matritensis (IRL Madrid is bigger than Rome in terms of population), or Italians in Mediolanum, or whether the industrial center of Rome is in Cisalpine Gaul.... Rome is the ancient and eternal capital where millions of people throughout history have had their fortunes made or their dreams squashed.

I suppose I can keep the outlying populations contained where they are while increasing the population of Rome via other means.

[Chemaki]

Well, Rome is quite the center of the empire. While IRL Milan is the financial capital of Italy, and Rome its political capital, in AMW, Rome is everything to the empire. Hong Kong, you say? Definitely a megacity in terms of population and power within the empire, but it isn't Rome no matter how many people and skyscrapers it can jam onto the Pearl River Delta. It doesn't matter how many Spaniards live in Matritensis (IRL Madrid is bigger than Rome in terms of population), or Italians in Mediolanum, or whether the industrial center of Rome is in Cisalpine Gaul.... Rome is the ancient and eternal capital where millions of people throughout history have had their fortunes made or their dreams squashed.

I suppose I can keep the outlying populations contained where they are while increasing the population of Rome via other means.

Whilst there's no doubt that Rome is the heartland and capital of the Empire, it's worth considering the actual geography and demography when you're deciding about cities. With over 150 (170? 180? I haven't been keeping close track of your expansions) million spread around the globe, Rome is going to find it hard to be the center of the Empire in much but name and sheer prestige (as you've pointed out in your post). After all, Rome in the Ancient Era, to many citizens of the Roman Empire, was a far-flung spring of civilization, important nevertheless, but most people in the Empire never even lay their eyes upon Rome, let alone made it the focal point of their lives. I can't imagine Romans living in Hong Kong or Central America care much about the city of their namesake beyond a nationalist/cultural pride, and large populations of Romans living outside of the Italian peninsula (Hispania, America, Asia) would probably have their own sprawling cities that would rival Rome in fiscal power and population, if not prestige and history.

If you want to go the other way and have everything concentrated in Rome like the Brits with London, that's equally viable, in that case making Rome a center of finance, industry, etc. Point is that at the end of the day, the larger a city is the more important it is, so it's rather silly saying that there are cities in the Empire larger than Rome, but for some reason don't have the same economic/cultural traction. If Rome was the largest city in the Empire, perhaps London or Moscow-sized, then it would make sense that the city was at the heart of everything... but a city of two million somehow concentrating the entire nation's political and economic power is far fetched at best. Why would businesses invest in Rome, as opposed to a more lucrative emerging market in the colonies? Why would Rome remain the political or cultural focus for people who live on the other side of the world, and perhaps have never even been to the city? You seem to be hyping things up so Rome to the Empire is like Mecca to the Muslim world: the latter has religious scripture and tradition to make it so important, and I just can't see Romans in a multicultural, disparate society all gazing upon the capital without a very good reason (not just the whole "it's where our ancestors came from" schpiel). I think it could be an interesting concept to play with, exactly why Rome is still so important in the modern world, and what about the Empire's culture makes people venerate it so much?... just writing it off as historic prestige seems rather lazy, especially when you can think of something more unique and inventive that relates directly to Roman culture and the Empire.

When I was writing about Dubai I could have just said that its wealth was due to heavy investment and tourism, an artificial city of 12 million springing up overnight because someone put enough shiny lights and buildings out in the desert. But things rarely work out so easily in the real world, and I took the challenge of explaining Dubai's importance and significance in a more detailed, original way. I thought long and hard about how such a transformation could happen, and why Dubai would be so important, beyond the typical lazy arguments of "it's got a lot of investment" or "it's prestigious". Now I have paragraphs of history about a port in the Persian Gulf dotted with skid rows and walled districts, the Middle East's answer to IRL's Victorian London, New York, or Shanghai, and even with its newfound oil wealth and heavy investment, it still keeps its rough history and character, a veneer of civilization on one of the most dangerous urban areas outside of the Shield. See? A lot more rewarding to challenge yourself to come up with a comprehensive explanation, and use it to think more deeply about how your nation ticks, than simply trying to find the most convenient excuse.

[Chrinthanium]

-snip-

142,869,772 Romans globally as currently proposed

I would never look to Dubai as to why cities prosper. Not that it doesn't have its own historical reasoning for being there, but considering the powers that be invested the GDP of a few small nations to build up that city in the last 20 years (with particular issues as a result), Dubai is pretty much an intentionally-planned city built upon the Field-of-Dreams premise of urban development. If you build it, they will come. Yet, Dubai wouldn't be there if the UAE didn't centralize itself into its capital.

I never said Rome was going to be a city of 12 million. But it may get a population boost to at least become the empire's largest European city. And, I don't even have to shift populations to make that happen. Recent research on my end suggests I can just expand the borders of the City of Rome to where the RL borders of the Province of Rome sit and bring total population to just over 4 million, making it AMW Rome's largest European city. The rest of the "big" cities around the world that are inside the empire will be what they are. As I said, I can leave the populations where they are. There's no more need to interject opinions on the subject anymore.

Now, I have to get back to work--both literally and figuratively, and fill in the history blanks I still have on the page while dispatching cabs all over the town. Later.

[Chrinthanium]

I went ahead and created a day-in-the-life thread for AMW. I know at least a few of us have, at times, expressed an interest in this sort of thread. A place where AMWers can post one-off ideas that don't or can't support an entire thread on their own or showcase what life is like for people in their nations. Furthermore, such an idea is also helpful to those who might be suffering a bit from lack of inspiration or writer's block. This thread is a collection and a compilation of ideas and AMW fiction rather than a single-idea thread. The stories do not have to take place in the current time frame. The could be recounts of past war stories and important historical moments, or what life is like for a citizen in your nation. There's no limit to the amount of stories anyone in AMW can post in this thread. For every single citizen in our nations there is a story waiting to be told.

How does it help with writer's block? Well, from personal experience, I've learned that free writing can--at least somewhat often--help deal the death knell to writer's block and help inspire ideas inside me. I also know that I have had plenty of ideas that worked well as a one-off short story rather than an entire thread. I know my hard drive has story fragments and partial ideas strewn across it hoping to see the light of day. However, a lot of these ideas really can't support a single thread on their own. Perhaps you have a few ideas and stories like that as well. What better place to give them life than a thread like this?

I also know what it is like to be stuck having to deal with the real world and how that can seriously cut into the more in-depth types of stories that AMW loves. Sometimes things get so busy that we simply don't have the time to RP as often as we wish. As for myself, I know that the way my life goes, I don't really have the time required to work on length documents detailing troops movements or planning out behind-the-scenes strategy for diplomatic or militaristic campaigns. Sometimes, at least in my life, it's that my schedule is so busy at times I can't even concentrate long enough to throw together a detailed and well-laid-out story idea. But, a thread like this doesn't require as much time in planning and strategy. No, it's not a cop-out on the more detailed threads that define AMW, but, like the free writing I spoke of earlier, gives us a place to keep the creativity flowing. Perhaps, one of the ideas we put into this thread can spur on something else further down the road that becomes a long, detailed thread full of sex, violence, intrigue, and fun.

Also, there's a chance it could help spur a little more activity in our group. AMW isn't the most fast-paced group ever to grace the NS forums, but anything we can do to create an uptick in our activity is, more-than-likely, a good thing.

Anyway, I've kicked things off. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=317625

[The Amyclae]

Hey all, is there anyone in my region of the world that would like a little roleplay? Nova Gaul?

Nice thread Chrin, I hope to contribute soon.

[Nova Gaul]

Heya! Well, I think California has done a good job on convincing Japan to stay out of the Americas. So, not likely to see the Yamato cruising down to Mesoamerica anytime soon, I'm afraid.

...that said, I mentioned a while ago I was toying around with the idea of including Taiwan in the Japanese Empire. I never got around to doing so. If you'd like, you're more than welcome to play Taiwan as Japan (now in 'destroy' mode after the California's attack and what it sees as a world conspiracy) tries to bully you into the Empire.

Also happy to entertain other ideas.

[Chemaki]

Hey all, is there anyone in my region of the world that would like a little roleplay? Nova Gaul?

I'd be eager to do some sort of peacekeeping RP in Anahuac, and let the FIS flex its muscle a bit and repairing any relations hurt by its loose affiliation with Japan. Certainly the States would have in interest in aiding the revolution and perhaps influencing the Commmunists to a more moderate form, and although attempting it alone would be absurd, it would happily work with a local power like Zion or California to provide relief efforts there, securing the borders and providing asylum to refugees (shipped halfway around the world into the economic machine Dubai) as some sort of 'Stability Pact'. Would be nice to RP something outside of the Middle East for once.

[Amerique]

Hey, Chemaki, the American Republic, while opposed to Japan and the Anahuac government, is also somewhat skeptical of the rebels and is not militarily involved in Anahuac beyond peacekeeping and humanitarian efforts to do with refugee protection and extraction. Perhaps the FIS can join the efforts and expand on the work together? It would need TCB's approval, of course.

[The Crooked Beat]

Hmm, I'm not sure there's an especially large scope for peacekeeping or humanitarian work in Anahuac at the moment, unless for instance the Californians were to threaten a withdrawal of support for the PRPM if those elements weren't allowed in. While the government forces would love to take advantage of any way to boost their international legitimacy, cooperation on that front would also require Amerique and the FIS to deal very closely with the Gulf States, which has recently taken over as the government's main supporter.

As for the revolutionaries, as far as they're concerned there isn't any sort of refugee crisis to be concerned about, and any foreign peacekeepers would not only delay the achievement of total victory in Anahuac itself, but would possibly also impede the transmission of all-out revolutionary warfare to the Gulf States. I'll have to think about it some more, but I don't think either side in the war would be terribly interested in the arrival of foreigners who aren't going to provide direct military assistance against the other side.

Out-of-characterly, this has a lot to do with the fact that I don't really want a better future for Anahuac, and that under the PRPM, I intend for things to get, if not necessarily worse, at least no better, between all the various schemes of class warfare, agricultural collectivization and crash industrialization that the Kurosite leadership very sincerely and fundamentally intends to implement at some point not too distantly ahead (though who knows if I'll ever get around to it in RP). There's obviously nothing stopping foreign powers from using their considerable means to intervene, but unless that intervention carried a very strong note of Californian approval (and even then the Kurosites will be wanting to kick out the Californians sooner or later), it would have to be unilateral or very nearly so. Maybe there's room for a Bay of Pigs-style invasion by a manufactured third force, which could be immensely interesting, but in domestic political terms there isn't much to go for between extreme right and extreme left.

Open of course to further thoughts and discussion, but not sure that peacekeeping or refugee assistance would be the best way to go about things, given the nature of the local situation.

[Amerique]

Refugee assistance and humanitarian work would mostly have operated under the assumption of very porous borders, especially along the coasts, as is common in most modern civil conflict zones. There were plenty of escapees and refugee camps for some of Africa and South America's conflict zones, for example, without any need for an organized Western intervention force or official UN peacekeeping mission. The mission described in my post was mostly related to extraction of refugees and assistance in camps established by civilian aid organizations (the Red Cross, or its AMW equivalent, for example) and the airdropping of aid into affected areas or civilian zones where there was considerable collateral damage and the front had since moved on from. Transponders on the aircraft involved would prevent any shootdown incidents, though as was seen recently in Ukraine's Donbass region, there could still very much be a likelihood of its occurrence, if you would like such an incident occurring, and it would incur some penalties on whichever faction was responsible/admitted culpability.

In the meantime, the OSS and its clandestine oversight in the operation is very much ramping up towards a Bay of Pigs-style incident as we discussed on the IRC, probably composed in equal parts of ex-pats, political refugees, mercs and allied agents, though I'm waiting to direct it at whichever faction is close to assuming control of the nation.

[Chemaki]

Out-of-characterly, this has a lot to do with the fact that I don't really want a better future for Anahuac, and that under the PRPM, I intend for things to get, if not necessarily worse, at least no better, between all the various schemes of class warfare, agricultural collectivization and crash industrialization that the Kurosite leadership very sincerely and fundamentally intends to implement at some point not too distantly ahead (though who knows if I'll ever get around to it in RP). There's obviously nothing stopping foreign powers from using their considerable means to intervene, but unless that intervention carried a very strong note of Californian approval (and even then the Kurosites will be wanting to kick out the Californians sooner or later), it would have to be unilateral or very nearly so. Maybe there's room for a Bay of Pigs-style invasion by a manufactured third force, which could be immensely interesting, but in domestic political terms there isn't much to go for between extreme right and extreme left.

Far from it, I don't have any real out-of-character intention to give this peacekeeping RP a happy outcome, and was looking more to any attempts to help muddying the situation further (think how messy peacekeeping/refugee operations get in Africa, for instance). As Amerique pointed out, I don't think anyone is too keen on deploying soldiers inside Anahuac, and aid efforts would be limited to (at least in the FIS' case) stationing a squadron of ships nearby, picking up boatloads of refugees (mostly Ummah expatriots), and airdropping supplies in. Perhaps some unprovoked attack by Anahuac or the PRPM, whereby one of the Ummah's planes are shot down whilst delivering supplies (or some suchlike circumstance) provokes the FIS into retaliation. This could be a co-ordinated Bay of Pigs effort with Amerique, or a simpler task of throwing missiles back (a tactic the Ummah is very fond of) to try and neutralize any anti-air/anti-ship capability along Anahuac's Pacific coast, before retreating and watching from a distance.

[Kyr Shorn]

The day in the life thread is giving me ideas... I just need some time to actually write is all.

[Chrinthanium]

That was the goal of the thread. Give the creative juices a place to flow without fear of having to maintain an entire thread. Perhaps one idea put up there could take off on its own at a later time, or, perhaps it'll slowly fill with one-post stories that really have no where else to go. We need to boost activity in AMW and I thought this was one way to do it. I worry that we won't get too much interest from potential applicants if we just sit around doing precious little as a whole. At least with the "Day In The Life" thread, there's a chance to put some more work out there if, for no other reason, to keep us from looking dead even though we're alive and well.

[Chrinthanium]

Okay, so it's been brought to my attention that there are people pushing for change in AMW. And, I have to admit, AMW is in need of change. We can't simply limp on as we have been if we want to attract more people to our amazing group of personalities. So, I'd like to present a few things that I see to you all. I'll start with ideas that were brought to my attention first as to give my opinions on those and then move on from there.

The Great War and the potential shift to an AMW timeline sent in the 40s and 50s: I suppose that part of AMW's overall problem is this reluctance to let the Great War go in the modern day. In the current timeline, we're almost 70 years removed from its ending, yet we're still fighting it. We're still hanging onto it like a crutch. I have always been skeptical of its importance in a fictitious world anyway, but kept on with what AMW seemed to want. And, really, I'm cool with keeping a Great War in our history, but, even in RL, we've let go of World War 2 and World War 1. We should be able to do this in AMW.

Now, setting AMW backwards in the 40s and 50s, though, wouldn't be something that I would want to do at all. Modern tech means not only modern age to me, but also modern day. I'm already pretty against rehashing the Great War over and over in AMW, and setting AMW's time line so close to its conclusion--or right smack dab in the midst of it--would be something I just wouldn't want to do. It would be something that would shift me away from AMW.

I think we can also be a bit more accommodating when it comes to populations. Certainly I am not advocating for the allowance of billions of people in one nation the size of Germany, but, there are ways to keep populations realistic without being based on exact census counts. For instance, if you claim France, but only want 25 million people, I think we should allow that. If you want to put 100 million there, fine. Perhaps some leeway in that area would be beneficial to people who want to join AMW. I mean, if we can already shift populations, and break up the interior into whatever and however many provinces we want, then we should be willing to give a little bit here.

Available technology. Well, we've pretty much pinned that down to the location of a claim. If you claim where Boeing was started, or where its HQ is, you get Boeing. If you don't want it, then you can give it to someone else. Eh, I'm rather fond of this, but it does limit other players a bit. Perhaps we should push for more creativity and sharing in this department? I mean, if you give someone a bigger claim, as a matter of national pride, they may want to build their own cars, planes, tanks, trains, etc... even if IRL there isn't a corporation or an industry in there naturally in the claim that fulfills this. I know AMW isn't against this practice, though, but, perhaps we should be willing to help out more. Say if you claim Detroit, perhaps you can keep Dodge, but give away Ford? I dunno, just spitballing here.

I have two claims and I don't do much with either. So, I don't really see the need to have two. In fact, I think, apart from certain time-honored dual claims, most people should get one claim. I can't imagine AMW without both Walmington and Drapol, or the Shield and California, but they have historical precedence in AMW. Me, I can live with just one claim. Perhaps most others can as well.

We have to nail down some form of bare minimal activity level in AMW. Really, that's part of the major issue here. I don't think it is too much to ask that our members post at least one in-character post everyone three months. Simply popping in to inform us you haven't died shouldn't cut the mustard. Waiting till someone CTEs is also something that can be eliminated. I can make a claim, then keep my nation 'active' by logging in once every 28 days. We should expect some bare minimum level of activity. Nothing too strict, as I said, though.

Superpowers. AMW went through a superpower phase, then there was the no superpowers phase, now were drifting into middling-on-the-verge-of superpowers. Perhaps there is logical reasoning to have a few superpowers, but, in general, I think a few superpowers are fine, the rest can be middling/regional powers as it is IRL. We should cap populations, though, perhaps around the 200-300 million mark since, IRL, there are very few nations that large.

Economics. The ever-so-hard-to-pin-down GDP question. How do we determine it? What makes us decide what is and what isn't a reasonable number. Maybe we really do need to hash this out, or, at least base it on how the claim is organized and set up internally. Lots of internal turmoil leads to a lesser GDP. Stable nations tend to have higher GDPs. We should loosen the purse strings here a bit while attempting to maintain some balance between rich and poor. Not sure how to go about this, but we could simply come up with a GDP matrix based on population, industry-level, and internal stability. Probably wouldn't be all that hard to come up with.

I think that's where my mind is at the moment. If I come up with anything else, I'll let you know.

[Chemaki]

I think we can also be a bit more accommodating when it comes to populations. Certainly I am not advocating for the allowance of billions of people in one nation the size of Germany, but, there are ways to keep populations realistic without being based on exact census counts. For instance, if you claim France, but only want 25 million people, I think we should allow that. If you want to put 100 million there, fine. Perhaps some leeway in that area would be beneficial to people who want to join AMW. I mean, if we can already shift populations, and break up the interior into whatever and however many provinces we want, then we should be willing to give a little bit here.

Agreed here; I do think that if we can justify shifting our populations around within our claims (for example having a city in the middle of the desert of 12 million, heh heh) then a bump-up or bump-down of population should be allowed too. Nothing too drastic, since populations are largely tied to how many people the land can support (e.g. if you're going to claim Libya and say it had 20 million people instead of 6, you're obviously going to have some pretty major issues as to how you keep them all supported). To be honest my personal preference is to keep roughly to modern population guidelines, and I don't think we'll have a lot of current members drastically changing their populations, which should hopefully set a standard for sensible population claims. However, if you're a developed nation in Africa or the Indian subcontinent, or an undeveloped nation in Europe, you should have the leeway to shift your population to reflect that, provided you have some reasoning for it.

Available technology. Well, we've pretty much pinned that down to the location of a claim. If you claim where Boeing was started, or where its HQ is, you get Boeing. If you don't want it, then you can give it to someone else. Eh, I'm rather fond of this, but it does limit other players a bit. Perhaps we should push for more creativity and sharing in this department? I mean, if you give someone a bigger claim, as a matter of national pride, they may want to build their own cars, planes, tanks, trains, etc... even if IRL there isn't a corporation or an industry in there naturally in the claim that fulfills this. I know AMW isn't against this practice, though, but, perhaps we should be willing to help out more. Say if you claim Detroit, perhaps you can keep Dodge, but give away Ford? I dunno, just spitballing here.

I'm in this exact same position personally, and being able to use tech from other nations (specifically in my case the USSR due to my claim in Tajikistan) would be immensely useful for me. Certainly I think that if, for example, I ask to use some Russian companies that Gandvik aren't using (Mikoyan and Myasishchev) and he is fine with it, and we are both considerate and leave Russian arms for future claimants, then there should be no obstacle to me taking a small slice of Russia's huge variety of military tech. When you factor in that the US and former USSR, along with a lot of Western Europe, are entirely spoiled for choice whilst most of the rest of the world relies on US/Russian imports, it's certainly going to be a headache to sort out what gear could be used. When you think that most Eastern European, Chinese and North Korean systems are based directly off of the USSRs, it doesn't make sense for a North Korean or Chinese claimant to have Gandvian-based technology despite not holding any relations with Gandvik. Essentially what I'm saying is that players should have the rights to hash out what technology they claim, and if compromises need to be made they must be done so in the interest of fairness both to current and future claimants, and try to reflect historical relations, economic and military power.

Superpowers. AMW went through a superpower phase, then there was the no superpowers phase, now were drifting into middling-on-the-verge-of superpowers. Perhaps there is logical reasoning to have a few superpowers, but, in general, I think a few superpowers are fine, the rest can be middling/regional powers as it is IRL. We should cap populations, though, perhaps around the 200-300 million mark since, IRL, there are very few nations that large.

I think that superpowers aren't particularly necessary to good roleplay, and certainly they don't add much to it. International co-operation along the lines of the UN and NATO can easily be done in AMW without a head state, and whilst degrees of difference in the balance of power make for interesting scenarios, the top-power nations in AMW all have worldwide military and economic capabilities, huge cultural influence (look at Greece and Rome) and, on the whole, stellar standards of living and development. Giving players more and more land and people would only give them more to write about and consider; likewise, a superpower nation could only really work if a very active player commandeered it and was prepared to write reams of roleplay involving almost every other nation in the world. Having a nation so powerful it influences other nations across the world in their histories and current events, played by an inactive player, will just grind most RP to the halt as the person playing the superpower would be overwhelmed by the sheer volume of stuff he needs to sort out. Think about the history the USA has tied into with virtually every other nation on Earth. Then imagine trying to contact every other player with AMW and figure out how your superpower influences their nations, one by one.

Economics. The ever-so-hard-to-pin-down GDP question. How do we determine it? What makes us decide what is and what isn't a reasonable number. Maybe we really do need to hash this out, or, at least base it on how the claim is organized and set up internally. Lots of internal turmoil leads to a lesser GDP. Stable nations tend to have higher GDPs. We should loosen the purse strings here a bit while attempting to maintain some balance between rich and poor. Not sure how to go about this, but we could simply come up with a GDP matrix based on population, industry-level, and internal stability. Probably wouldn't be all that hard to come up with.

I really do think we need to talk this over properly, since GDP is a rather strange and intangible subject that isn't tied to any one industry or factor. Think about the US and the huge amount of money it gets from exporting its brands across the world via global corporations, or the amount of money the UK gets from its banking sector. Japan has absolutely no natural resources yet it managed to maintain a healthy GDP by producing high-tech goods. Iran's GDP is floundering because it has economic sanctions placed on it. Many European nations are in turmoil because despite being developed and stable, they did not have any industry or exports to the rest of the world and had poor economic policies so their economies tanked, leading to turmoil (think of riots in Greece).

Now I know barely the tip of the iceberg when it comes to economics (I did an A-level in Geography), but it doesn't take much to create a reasonable model of GDP. All we need to do at some point is get our heads together, think about how our nations would trade, what industries our nations would have and how they'd be run (State-run? Independent? Heavily taxed? Loosely regulated?), and base rough assumptions off of there. For instance, although the Roman Empire hasn't got much in terms of natural resources compared to, say, Byzantium or Depkazia, it has a higher GDP because Roman culture and business is ubiquitous; I can imagine a lot of people in the Middle East buying Roman goods, using Roman companies, investing in Roman banks. Likewise, a nation reliant on natural resources would have to corner its own market; I have natural gas reserves that are as large as Gandvik's yet are untapped, because there's little demand for it (why ship it in from the Middle East when you can pipe it straight from Europe?). Like populations, economies should be a flexible thing as long as you have a good reason, and come up with something more imaginative than saying "Uh, Oil?".

[The Crooked Beat]

Suppose it's fairly obvious to all concerned, but I'm a major proponent of moving to an earlier date, simply for aesthetic reasons if nothing else. Clearly I'm no sort of storyteller and quite unable to come up with anything in the human-interest line, being little short of obsessed with tanks, aircraft, and warships, and of those I've come to slightly despise the more modern varieties for being, well, too capable and alternatively, to my mind, uninteresting and overly confusing to RP with. From that limited perspective, I think we can say fairly confidently that military matters are easier to deal with earlier-on, since, in addition to being recognizably modern, the weapons of say 1940-1960 quite simply lack the modern era's technological sophistication. A battle between Aegis-equipped destroyers, personally, interests me little to not at all. And not to mention, the trajectory of technological development these days basically means that all weapons worth having are going to come from a tiny handful of countries. Do we want a world where everyone either has to have a Eurofighter (or -gasp- an F-22) to play or go home, or a world of wacky and wonderful jet fighter designs, none of which are necessarily generations and exponential quantities of expenditures away from one another?

While I'm rambling on, I'm going to semi-demand that Rome use the F-104S in large numbers. Or else! Besides, Aspide-equipped, it's just about the perfect match for anything Geletian and MiG-21 (or equivalent) related. Neither really good at much besides going fast. And fast! West Germany operated (and lost) hundreds!

So I guess, to be completely honest, war-obsession is what brought me to RPing to begin with, and the early-mid Cold War's definitely my preferred setting.

As for military equipment, a subject upon which I will attempt to refrain from expounding at excessive length, I think that, generally, nobody's going to ask that many questions if people use analogs and equivalents of other things. If the industrial and technological capabilities are there, and buying from overseas isn't an option for whatever reason, there's no reason why a particular country wouldn't be able to do a particular thing. Gandvik clearly is unfairly well-endowed in the defense-industrial arena, but if someone wanted, say, to basically have an Su-27, but call it a TV-38, that wouldn't be a problem. We can't, after all, expect people to design everything from the ground up, and searching the internet for various prototypes and what-if one-off designs, while occasionally interesting, is probably not what many people really want to do, and in some cases will leave big gaps in capability.

Granted, if we, say, were to move back to the 1950s-1960s, a lot more options would open up (and if Valendia would allow it, I'd definitely switch Gandvik over wholeheartedly to the Mirage III, maybe that zany Super-Vautour too), but as we approach the present day in time the sheer fact that world-class aircraft, ships, and tanks have become so shockingly expensive, and therefore have become almost exclusively the province of the wealthiest and most powerful few nations, effectively means that, in an AMW characterized by great powers rather than superpowers, we'll have to make up some things that aren't there in RL.

Otherwise, eh, I don't know. I can't shake the feeling that we've gone really wrong somewhere, but that the thrill, so to speak, isn't totally spent, and that by changing things around we can recapture a little of the old-AMW and pre-AMW magic, in a world less structured than linked, one pieced together a bit more loosely, though maybe it's all a reflection on the fact that Gandvik is such an unexamined shambles!

Maybe we've (I've certainly) become too wrapped-up in structure and assembly, puzzle-piecing together a believable world, at the expense of RP, but obviously a lot of people are doing a lot of really interesting things with their claims and there's no valid reason to ask anyone to abandon that. My thinking is that a more scalable world, of more fluidly competing Great Powers existing in a more explicitly 17th-18th century environment, borders less clearly pinned-down, overseas land-grabs (but I would hope in a fashion fundamentally different from previous RP efforts), and definitely more navies of the non-missile-centric variety, could lead to a bit more activity without forcing on anyone changes which are, in a fundamental way, more than cosmetic.

[Chrinthanium]

I mean, I get that a 1950s gun is easier to deal with than a gun made in 2014. I understand Ageis-equipped naval vessels lack a certain romanticism for true naval battle. But, you know, that all went out the window because of the Cold War. These things were developed at a time where everyone was worried someone in either Moscow or Washington was going to push a button and end the world. They were developed to give us the edge over the so-called enemy. That's why computers needed to talk to each other. That's why satellites were launched into space to track enemy ship movements. All of the technology that inhibits the romanticized naval battle is a direct result of the Cold War.

Maybe I'm just stuck in the mindset that today is better than yesterday because of the very technology we have. Maybe that's because, unlike some, I was a kid before most of the information age broke loose upon the world. I remember a world where if you needed to call someone you had to find a pay phone and you had to remember the number. Then, you had to hope they were home otherwise no dice. And, well, at the time it was great because we didn't have all of this technology we have today. I like it. I think it enhances, not inhibits. The fact that 10,000 men no longer have to die because weapons have become sophisticated is a good thing to me.

I think shifting the time setting is a bad idea. I have to wonder what's the point of calling this a modern RP group. Really, there isn't. New applicants are going to come in and when they realize there is no internet, there are no Nimitz carriers, there are no cell phones, no home computers, no cable television.... and then they go to another group where modern really means modern. That's all well and good if AMW is to be a Cold War era RP group, but that's not how it's billed.

Even if you shift the time line, you still have countries that have the bigger weapons and ships because they have deeper pockets. You still have the nations that can put a man on the moon while others simply watch with wonder and amazement because they can barely afford to feed their people. And, you know, that didn't change in the modern day. The rich nations got richer and the poor nations got poorer. The modern day isn't any less rich-versus-poor than the 1940s or the 1970s. It's just the rich have better toys than they did in the 1940s and 1970s.

I don't know anymore. Everyone yearns for the AMW of the past. All the rules we have are set up to preserve the AMW of the past. That somehow if we keep the group as it was, the AMW of the past will suddenly pop up again and everyone will be happy again. But the AMW of the past is gone. It's like when a loved one died and people keep their room just the way it was because somehow that meant they weren't really gone and, just maybe, they might come home again and ask why the room was changed.

AMW can be a great group again, but we have to change some of our basic rules. You want to attract more people to AMW? I promise you that switching the timeline from present day to 40-70 years ago won't do that. You want to fill our map? We have to do more than sit around and only offer people the potential for a global conflict born out of a previous global conflict that happened long before they even knew what NS was, let alone AMW. We have to do more than sit around and hope someone RPs. We have to be active. We have to show people we're out here. We have to do it with more than wars, and threats of wars. Yes, they have their place, but, we also have to show people that they can come to AMW even if they don't want to RP war. We have to show them that they can create characters that can live in AMW without them having to be presidents, emperors, or diplomats of any kind.

What does it say that I'm in an FT RP with someone I don't know that well, but here, in a group I've been privileged to be a member of for over 5 years, I've no ideas at all because, frankly, no one wants to RP anything other than war and detente and things of that ilk. And, I'm not even upset at that fact, really. I know how AMW works. So I just bide my time hoping someone with inclinations towards my kind of RP will arrive. That's if they make it through the mess of an apps process (another topic for another post).

If you want to trim back the military tech a bit, I don't really see an issue with that. If you want to RP historical moments, I don't have issues with that. But to simply push us into the past altogether would be the death knell for AMW.

[Beddgelert]

Eh, maybe we can have it both ways.

A lot of us have secondary claims in AMW. Maybe we shouldn't have, but should stick them in a parallel RP world. Beddgelert in one, Abargrapt in the other. The Shield in one, California the other. WoS in one, Dra-pol the other. Gandvik and any one of TCB's myriad other periodic ideas. Rome and Chrinthanium. Maybe?

This thought brought to you by Jura 10yr old malt.

[Chrinthanium]

Eh, maybe we can have it both ways.

A lot of us have secondary claims in AMW. Maybe we shouldn't have, but should stick them in a parallel RP world. Beddgelert in one, Abargrapt in the other. The Shield in one, California the other. WoS in one, Dra-pol the other. Gandvik and any one of TCB's myriad other periodic ideas. Rome and Chrinthanium. Maybe?

This thought brought to you by Jura 10yr old malt.

Quite possible. A Modern World and A Pre-Modern World could work. Regardless, I think that if we do it in two dimensions, then I can handle it all.