OOC discussion: Obscenely Large Images

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Frankly, it looks like the inspiration for that image was a pile of vomit.

No one was asking for your opinions on the images themselves, just the issue of size. Frankly, your tone there is rather inflammatory and you probably ought to refrain from continuing in that manner. Thank you.

[Crystal Spires]

The appeal of images is to not face a giant wall o' text, to create immersion, and to spice things up. I agree that perhaps there is an issue of Size. Depending on the context a picture can be more effective than a big wall of text to unify what players can do to interact. They might all see the same scene a different way and it allows for perspective too.

[The Kangaroo Republic]

Well, I for one do believe that some images being used in roleplays are obscenely large, but the exact point at which one person could consider an image to be obscenely large definitely differs from person to person. I myself, for example, didn't find Lanos' nor Aezakmi's "lolhuge" header to be massive at all. Heck, it just might be someone might find my own nation's communique to be too large or pushing it if such a person would have rather strict standards.

If there is such strong subjectivity, then it'd be a problem when moderators would take full control over what size images are allowed to be in roleplay threads without being spoilered, so it'd generally be good if the OP him/herself kind of regulates the thread in regards to communiques being too large and/or pushing his or her personal acceptable boundaries.

Much like how the OP him/herself sets the bar for the roleplay quality, it could be similar for these headers and roleplaying images and whatnot, whereas mods could act when it gets to the point where it would be considered downright spamming.

[Maxen von Bismarck]

Frankly, it looks like the inspiration for that image was a pile of vomit.

No one was asking for your opinions on the images themselves, just the issue of size. Frankly, your tone there is rather inflammatory and you probably ought to refrain from continuing in that manner. Thank you.

Haha, er, okay. Because as we know he clearly has a deep and emotional attachment to the image and takes any insult of it as a personal attack on his character... Or maybe he's well adjusted.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

The appeal of images is to not face a giant wall o' text, to create immersion, and to spice things up. I agree that perhaps there is an issue of Size. Depending on the context a picture can be more effective than a big wall of text to unify what players can do to interact. They might all see the same scene a different way and it allows for perspective too.

I suppose that's part of the problem - differing opinions on what is or isn't 'immersive' and what constitutes good RP. Too much text that doesn't go anywhere can be irritating, sure. But if it's good writing, I find it's more an irritation to see people fall back on images rather than role-play. Never mind the fact that just because some players use a lot of words, does not mean that rp posts have to be massive novels in and of themselves. I'm afraid you will never be able to convince me that some slapped-together chopped image is 'better than words' to convey a scene, or 'more effective' than a well-written post.

I suppose we all either broaden our pool of players we can rp with, or limit ourselves with our concepts, our actions, and our choices. Perhaps this thing with picture sizes in rp is another dividing point to be aware of. I don't think it would be feasible to ask for an in-game function that limits the size of images, though there used to be a thumbnail thing one could use. I'm still not against the use of images myself, as a player or as a mod, but I still find the over-large ones an eyesore more than an asset. And I don't think that's likely to change.

[The State of Monavia]

My letterheads have not drawn much displeasure from anyone. I also advise everyone to take a look at this thread. It contains some advice on making government correspondence appear official-looking without overdoing anything.

By the way, New Hayesalia has a smaller letterhead. Can somebody please cut NH a break?

Monavian letterheads tend to be large, but they contain a lot of text and are posted as an image in order to avoid having to type out things in five languages and then BB code format them, so at least I have some reasons of technical convenience to justify my use of them. Besides, my letters tend to be longer than the letterheads anyway.

EDIT: Oh no! MY EYES ARE BLEEDING! AHHHHHHH!

[Crystal Spires]

I suppose that's part of the problem - differing opinions on what is or isn't 'immersive' and what constitutes good RP. Too much text that doesn't go anywhere can be irritating, sure. But if it's good writing, I find it's more an irritation to see people fall back on images rather than role-play.

Part of the problem I find common with roleplay is a lack of consensus to the scene, time of day, situation, weather, wildlife etc. This can lead to a hellish situation where people are all in different imagined locations because they assume from what is not said, or they don't have a scene to actually go on. A picture gives a unified consensus.

Then there's also a circumstance where a character colors a scene with their point of view. This can make things rather tricky when other characters are trying to interject on their perspective of a scene set. This is also rectified with a simple picture.

Roleplay is not a single person activity, and this is why cooperation is needed, yes, and sometimes innocent clashes in people's imagination happen and that clutters things.

Never mind the fact that just because some players use a lot of words, does not mean that rp posts have to be massive novels in and of themselves.

This is part of my point. The RP posts are supposed to be cooperative, and with a single sided description with words there's no cooperation, really.

I'm afraid you will never be able to convince me that some slapped-together chopped image is 'better than words' to convey a scene, or 'more effective' than a well-written post.

Not when it's a wall of text, it's demoralizing and it often discourages people form actually reading it.

I suppose we all either broaden our pool of players we can rp with, or limit ourselves with our concepts, our actions, and our choices.

Fair enough, we all have different tastes. Though I'm right there with you about the size issue. I made adjustments to fix it once you mentioned it.

Perhaps this thing with picture sizes in rp is another dividing point to be aware of. I don't think it would be feasible to ask for an in-game function that limits the size of images, though there used to be a thumbnail thing one could use.

That would be very convenient as a middle ground, but I don't seem to see the thumbnail thing there anymore. Perhaps that needs rectifying.

I'm still not against the use of images myself, as a player or as a mod, but I still find the over-large ones an eyesore more than an asset. And I don't think that's likely to change.

That's a fair criticism.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

As to the suggestion that scene etc can't be addressed properly in rp, I beg to differ. I've been doing this for nearly 10 years, and the only time I've had troubles with what you're talking about there is with people who don't pay attention, don't read, or don't care about the effort the OP has put into creating a scene/location/situation for others to rp in with them.

It isn't hard. Questions? That's what an ooc thread is for. Or tg's. I tend to post pics and such to help clarify descriptions in the ooc threads, tbh - and only in situations where I'm running a highly-detailed rp like the last PIT thread. You can see an example of detailed ooc here and the ic here for those curious.

Laziness or lack of effort should not be an excuse to picspam, imho. Imagination is awesome - it's what drives these rp's. But when the OP sets the stage so to speak, those participating ought to make an effort to not out-imagine their host, change things to their benefit, etc. That also is part of cooperative rp - blending and meshing. You put your creations into someone else's setting, and go from there. You don't start making stuff up on the fly on their behalf. So no, I guess I don't see the problem there.

Your comment on 'single sided descriptions' lacking cooperation? Well no kidding - people are SUPPOSED to describe their own things. One shouldn't need someone elses input into how they describe their own creation. Again, I'm not seeing your point.

If too much text is too taxing to read, I would suggest you're in the wrong place - this is a text-based forum, in case you hadn't noticed. If people would rather play on a children's picture book level ... well, there's plenty of free forum hosting services out there, many of which are utilized by myself and others for regional, alliance, and other NS-related uses. Again, given the ages of people supposedly participating, I am not seeing the problem with a well-written post as opposed to a page of pictures. Your idea of what constitutes a 'wall of text' may differ from others. Myself, I prefer to see more than a sentence or two, or I'm discouraged from participation. Personal preference I suppose, but hey.

[Allanea]

Don't a lot of people who use seals and such things in their RPs (I used to do it but these days I find it simpler to just write a post and post it, and add the words Official Message From Such and Such Group on top) take them from an automatic seal-generation site, usually says-it.com or something similar? I would think that seal size is dictated, for a lot of people, who (like myself!) are useless with a graphics editor, by the qualities of the software that makes them. This use of seals is the most prominent use of image files I see in RP, mostly intended to make posts feel more 'official', as if you were reading official letterhead.

It is my perspective - my stomping grounds are mostly International Incidents and GE&T that a lot of RP there consists of "$event occurs in nation Y" - "Nations X, Z, and E express official opinions about it", and "Nation offers X good for trade, seal is included to decorate storefront". Storefront orders tend to also be decorated with seals, to make them more "in-character" rather than simply "I want 5 cakes, will wire money". I still have a seal made by Says-It at my Allanean Arms storefronts, which went up when I made the storefront way back when.

[Maltropia]

My perspective on storefronts is that they need to be unique and eyecatching in order to be successful. Diplomatic communiques, on the other hand, don't need to be image-filled to work. Heck, I don't even use images, aside from the odd map. All that's needed is larger text, placed so that it's clearly visible, and you're set. Take a look at a Maltropian communique for an example of what I mean. I think it's perfectly fine without picspam at the top and bottom.

Seals are all well and good, and yes, they can make it look more official. But I think DLN's point is that when the images are massive or numerous, or when it looks like more effort's gone into the picture than the text, it stops being RP and turns into visual spam.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

<snip>Seals are all well and good, and yes, they can make it look more official. But I think DLN's point is that when the images are massive or numerous, or when it looks like more effort's gone into the picture than the text, it stops being RP and turns into visual spam.

That there, is exactly it. I've never argued against the use of pics in all situations. Never will. Not denying there's a time and place for them. It's the 'overuse of pics instead of' and overall size - as stated in the OP here. Just trying to get a feel from the playerbase on why they're used, and why so huge.

If it's a matter of 'I don't know how to make them smaller', reach out to those of us who have the tools and can do it. You've got entire threads in Factbooks and such from people who have made an NS career out of creating images for flags, seals, storefronts, etc. There are free sites like Photobucket (for but one example) where you can easily edit an image size inside their programming.

So no - never has been and I doubt very much there ever will be any real discussion about banning images from RP or the site in general. That isn't a concern.

It is the SIZE of them. And as an aside from me as a player, the frequency of those huge pics and why players use them so often (and in some of the examples that others have posted here, images with little other content to them).

[Kagetora]

Alright gonna throw in my two cents. Or might end up closer to a dollar by the time I'm done writing.

Firstly I'm going to say that apart from letterheads or seals, posting ANY pictures in IC threads are a bad idea. There is no reason to put them because everything is describable in words. Letterheads/seals have a place, and I enjoy a good letterhead or seal in communiques because it takes away from the drabness that most people write communiques with. If people want pictures in threads, well there's a reason that most critically acclaimed novels aren't picture books. You're SUPPOSED to use your imagination to interpret what you're reading. That's what makes reading FUN.

Like this, with caption and everything

Backtracking a little bit to the idea of letterheads and seals, I find they are most effective and look best when they're horizontally long, and vertically short. Anything that approaches a square as a header looks bad. It's ok to have something squareish if it's shifted off to the side. See right. Other than that, letterheads and seals should be HEADERS. If you've ever used Microsoft Word, notice that the header is relatively small relative to the body. For an example, see my thread where the headers are no taller than a couple dozen pixels. So remember, letterhead = header. Seals should be to one side, using the [floatright] or [floatleft] commands.

Part of the problem I find common with roleplay is a lack of consensus to the scene, time of day, situation, weather, wildlife etc. This can lead to a hellish situation where people are all in different imagined locations because they assume from what is not said, or they don't have a scene to actually go on. A picture gives a unified consensus.

Then there's also a circumstance where a character colors a scene with their point of view. This can make things rather tricky when other characters are trying to interject on their perspective of a scene set. This is also rectified with a simple picture.

Roleplay is not a single person activity, and this is why cooperation is needed, yes, and sometimes innocent clashes in people's imagination happen and that clutters things.

Agreed. It's not a single person activity, and sometimes the imagination differs. However, good roleplayers know how to concede small points that don't matter in their posts (Ex: exactly how cloudy it is, whether or not the path is pebbles or gravel, the time of day to a point). Other people have the right to fill in what isn't mentioned. However, if what isn't mentioned matters (in which case it should have been mentioned), the OP has the right to overrule every detail of a player's post. Discrepancies should be small between players, and if they're not, they need to be rectified, quickly.

If you have a large scene, for instance this, then it should be linked to so that everyone is still on the same page, but it's not offending people's eyes. You say that a wall of text can be demoralizing, and I rebut that with the idea that the type of person you probably want to attract is willing to read the entire thing. You need to find people willing to respond to your writing style positively. Don't alter your writing style to others, alter those you roleplay with to your writing style.

NH's smaller letterhead
Still, that's far too vertical and takes up too much space. If I had my druthers, it would be at best spoilered, at worst deleted.

So in summary and tl;dr:
Letterhead=header. Horizontally long, vertically short.
Seals that are squareish=[floatright] or [floatleft]
Important pictures should be linked to or kept in OOC threads

[Hippostania]

My perspective on storefronts is that they need to be unique and eyecatching in order to be successful. Diplomatic communiques, on the other hand, don't need to be image-filled to work. Heck, I don't even use images, aside from the odd map. All that's needed is larger text, placed so that it's clearly visible, and you're set. Take a look at a Maltropian communique for an example of what I mean. I think it's perfectly fine without picspam at the top and bottom.

Seals are all well and good, and yes, they can make it look more official. But I think DLN's point is that when the images are massive or numerous, or when it looks like more effort's gone into the picture than the text, it stops being RP and turns into visual spam.

I don't see why images would be considered as ''picture spam'' if they're well-made. A well made text RP isn't considered text spam, so why would a well made communique header or any other kind of picture be ''spam''? As long as it is related to the thread, I don't see why using pictures would be considered bad.

But I honestly belive that the situation is currently just fine. Don't fix something that isn't broken.

This isn't broken at all? A post full of giant images that could have had the SAME effect in a smaller format isn't a problem?

Sure, it might be a bit too big but I still don't see the problem. The page is going to take a few seconds longer to load and you have to roll your scroll wheel a few extra times; that's it.

[Panda Bears]

My communique is quite small.

I must say, i've only seen a couple huge communiques.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

My perspective on storefronts is that they need to be unique and eyecatching in order to be successful. Diplomatic communiques, on the other hand, don't need to be image-filled to work. Heck, I don't even use images, aside from the odd map. All that's needed is larger text, placed so that it's clearly visible, and you're set. Take a look at a Maltropian communique for an example of what I mean. I think it's perfectly fine without picspam at the top and bottom.

Seals are all well and good, and yes, they can make it look more official. But I think DLN's point is that when the images are massive or numerous, or when it looks like more effort's gone into the picture than the text, it stops being RP and turns into visual spam.

I don't see why images would be considered as ''picture spam'' if they're well-made. A well made text RP isn't considered text spam, so why would a well made communique header or any other kind of picture be ''spam''? As long as it is related to the thread, I don't see why using pictures would be considered bad.

This isn't broken at all? A post full of giant images that could have had the SAME effect in a smaller format isn't a problem?

Sure, it might be a bit too big but I still don't see the problem. The page is going to take a few seconds longer to load and you have to roll your scroll wheel a few extra times; that's it.

Well-made or not ... too much of it does fall under the 'picspam' rules, to be honest. Related, sure. An eyesore - can be, depending.

As for the second - the fact that you don't see the problem is, in fact, what is being seen as a problem. And as yourself and others who feel this isn't a problem set examples for newer nations and players, they see what you do, copy what you do, and the problem spreads.

Is it a matter of elitism? Perhaps on some levels. I myself won't touch a thread ic'ly if it's a mess of images and little to no content. Or a bunch of godmoding. Or any other number of things that simply will not work in the frame I've developed for my nation. Which isn't to say we haven't done silly over the years. We have. Often. Still, we all have our level of standards, and they all differ. That's fine - that's part and parcel of the whole open role-play environment, and no one should be able to tell you how to play your nation so long as it operates within the forum rules.

That's all beside the point of this thread which is, in the end, image SIZES. Not whether or not you can use them at all. For the record, page-breaking images have historically been removed, prior to the availability of the spoiler function, so the size issue isn't a new one. It's just that with the increased server sizes, images have not been policed, for lack of a better word, as tightly as they have in the past, where image-heavy threads could crash 'em, and create other irritating problems for users as a whole.

Yes, those days did exist, my friends. And they were dark days indeed. Hours spent trying to get One. Little. Post. Just to show up. And not be posted like, 7 times in a row due to server hiccups. So again ... not the use of images at question, but the sheer size of the damn things.

[Snefaldia]

Thanks for starting this topic! I've always struggled a little with using images to illustrate a post- back in the Jolt days I used to inline link to images I felt illustrated my post, but I've gotten away from this to develop my descriptive skills. Headers are great if they add to, but don't detract from, the post itself- and if they don't advance the storyline, what's the point? You're just showing off the thing you designed.

A really amazing example of using images to advance a storyline that I try to emulate is from Kelssek's 2009 election thread. Although it's a specific mode of RP (namely news bulletins and such) he uses headers in such a way that it creates a sense of immersion- you barely notice they're even there they're so good. But the icing on the cake is really the unique screenshots from KBC- they summarize the IC info in a quick graphic that sticks with the reader. I think the best one I ever saw (and my search-fu is failing to fiind it) was just an image in the post- but if was a cleverly created excerpt from a newspaper, complete with fake-news text and ledes to other stories. It may have just been an image, but it conveyed the same amount of information.

I think in general the rule of thumb should be: if it adds to the story, keep it, and if it's too large, it doesn't add much.

[Knootoss]

No bullshit. Just KNN.

---

“In other news, a recent review of all post blueprints showed that the Knootoss News Network letterhead is the largest that is being used in Knootoss”, the sexy anchor of ambigious gender read from the teleprompter, smiling at the viewer back home. “With us today is a bearded expert on the matter, who kindly agreed to put the matter into perspective. Welcome, Mr. Expert.”

“Thank you, sexy anchor. I'm glad to be here and will happily answer any of the prepared questions that you are about to read from the teleprompter while feigning spontaneity.”

“Great! First of all, can you tell us something more about how Knootoss uses letterheads?”

“Of course. Knootoss uses letterheads in different contexts. The KNN letterhead is used to convey the fact that the post itself describes something that is being transmitted on television... usually some plot point, cloaked by blatant media bias, crude talking points and obnoxious commercialism. The logo and the slogan put the reader in a mindset for such an event. Having a somewhat large logo and a slogan does, actually, lead to an anticipation of something similarly trite. This lessens any confusion when the characters suddenly start to talk about how delicious Pink Bunny Cola really is.”

“... and Pink Bunny Cola is delicious indeed. I love the Cherry variety that's now being sold in a supermarket near you”, the anchor said while beaming at the viewer. The next question was asked while the anchor looked at the camera, not the guest: “What other types of signature are there?”

“Well, there's the signatures of regular characters that can be affixed beneath posts. These signatures are good for posts that centre around talky-talky type dialogue with little other types of interaction. They give people an idea what the character who is talking looks like, lessening the impression that it is just a player talking. Aram Koopman, the Press Secretary and the Observer to the human rights .. freedom.. equality thingy have them. Characters who are only used in more serious or elaborate roleplays usually do not.”

“What if there are a lot of sequential posts? Is it helpful to keep spamming the signature then?” the anchor asked, incredulously.

“No, it's not” the nameless expert agreed. “Usually they can be posted once, and not during follow-ups. Or once for every page or every very large post, if it's a busy thread.”

“What about letterheads? The Dread Lady seemed very upset by those.”

“I'd like to think the Knootian letterhead is pretty civilised. Here. Show it on camera...” the expert asked.

Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Defence
"Omnia mutantur nos et mutamur in illis"

“That's nice...” the anchor said, then crudely interrupting the interview to turn to the camera again. “Do you think Knootian letterheads are too large? Call the number at the bottom of your screen and participate in our instapoll. You can also twat your opinion to @KNNTwats using the '#Obscenelylarge hashtag!”

[The State of Monavia]

My thanks to Dread Lady Nathicana for editing that monstrosity I found and linked earlier. The thing looked so absurd that I had multiple laughing fits over it and nearly cried several times.

I almost never place pictures in my RP posts because I am a competent enough writer to describe things in words. If I need to post a picture, it is linked in an OOC attachment to an IC thread or is put into an OOC thread. As for my letterheads, they take up about two inches of vertical space because of what they contain (lots of words that I would otherwise have to copy and paste from elsewhere).

I need to thank the player behind Kagetora for the kittens in teacups. This thread needed something to lighten it up.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Snefaldia: That is an AWESOME example of pics and sigs and headers done well - thank you for that!

Knoot: I nearly snorted my soda giggling over your post. XD

Monavia: Glad to help, and yes, the kittens are too freaking adorable for words, so a picture does indeed work best.

[Snefaldia]

Not satisfied, I kept looking for those two great examples from Kelssek (who by now probably thinks I have an strange fascination...)

here

and

here

Both of these posts are just images, but they say so much about life in Kelssek! It's so much more interesting than seeing the same immense header over and over and over again. There's a sense of realism, ripped-from-the-headlines, like you're actually looking at a real newspaper.

for those younger nations: while it may be grating, try taking a look at the RP conventions of the older nations. There's a reason a lot of them have been around since antiquity. Speaking personally, I try to take a little bit from everyone to enrich my own stories, although I definitely have a preferred style it's fun to think outside the box. I really don't need a huge image to show what goes on in Snefaldia, and as a trained historian I have an intellectual understanding that images, icons, headers really just reflect what the society is like.