[Summit #3] Agenda Breakout Discussion [OPEN]

[Frisbeeteria]

This thread is for comments and commentary on the Agenda Breakout, as posted by the selected Summit reps in that thread.

When replying to a specific Agenda post, you should incorporate a link to that post by clicking the icon next to the relevant post and copying the URL. You may also [quote] relevant posts, though you need to be sure not to post in the Rep's Only thread. All posts by non-Reps will be removed, and offenders will be slapped with a large trout at the very least.

No threadjacks, please! If you need to expound on a point at length, post to the relevant Gameplay or Technical topic. Feel free to use the various Drafting threads already in place (assuming you have an invitation to [Closed] threads), or start your own Summit-related drafting thread if you wish.

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[Unibot III]

It's interesting how most of the reps are focused on piling and [violet] is still focused on tagging; there seems to be a real clash between those who want this conference to be about tagging and those who want this to be about piling -- piling as a topic was neglected since Day 1 because it wasn't mentioned in the original notation. I hope the admins rethink the problems facing R/D; few active defenders these days are actually complaining about the defense game in comparison to the liberation game which is a complete mess in comparison -- none of [violet]'s ideas will help piling and rolling updates would make it worse unless the Major "rolled" to 11 PM EST and never rolled again.

[violet] is so concerned with making "alternatives" more attractive than tagging, without recognizing that occupational raiding is dahm easy now and nearly non-competitive (it just takes a long time) -- raiders try to hold onto all of their "selected" choices all of the time now. It's inaccurate to say "because they tag-raid they don't hold onto their targets", since there is always an ongoing case of griefing-through-piling every month. All that these ideas seem to be doing is making the prize bigger, the time required shorter.. but not addressing the deficit of competitiveness due to piling. Except the regional officers idea, which doesn't help defenders against pilers and doesn't seem to be based on most real situations -- in all reality, most founderless regions are sleepy... these "regional officers", if they existed, would most likely be positions for griefers or sleepy natives (who were comparably less sleepy than their other regional mates).

This is a four-point plan to a particular outcome: a lot of regions being griefed and destroyed in a short period of time with no competition for the griefers -- I think [violet] needs to revisit what the other representatives are saying about how difficult it is to liberate, instead of just listening to how "boring" all this tag-raiding is.. because it's going to be one headache for myself, native communities, every defender who cares more about native communities and for the admin staff if the adopted admin position is to promote occupational raiding without first addressing how difficult it is to liberate occupations. Patience -- not liberators -- is the only thing limiting mass-griefing at the present moment; if you don't address piling, you're just going to be taking the last refuge for natives away and letting the whole dahm structure collapse.

I urge you to rethink your agenda before something egregious comes from it.

Yours,
Uni.

[Gest]

A rolling update will not make the game accessible to new people in fact it would do the opposite for it's a thinly disguised gameplay suppression scheme. The hope clearly is that eventually the most active people in gameplay will be made inactive for long stretches of time with the rotational shifts. Most people are served fine by two updates. The idea that new people will flock when this is implemented is preposterous. New gameplayers aren't made from thin air. They're created by being around veteran players. They learn from other people's experiences and by being integrated in groups. If this scheme was implemented then people who could train new players would themselves be out of the game for stretches out of time. The current update time isn't sacrosanct, there might be a better time that would allow more people to participate although there is something to be said about it being an established custom for a significant period of time, but this time shifting scheme is just a devious machination to create inactivity.

[Vladisvok Destino]

A rolling update will not make the game accessible to new people in fact it would do the opposite for it's a thinly disguised gameplay suppression scheme. The hope clearly is that eventually the most active people in gameplay will be made inactive for long stretches of time with the rotational shifts. Most people are served fine by two updates. The idea that new people will flock when this is implemented is preposterous. New gameplayers aren't made from thin air. They're created by being around veteran players. They learn from other people's experiences and by being integrated in groups. If this scheme was implemented then people who could train new players would themselves be out of the game for stretches out of time. The current update time isn't sacrosanct, there might be a better time that would allow more people to participate although there is something to be said about it being an established custom for a significant period of time, but this time shifting scheme is just a devious machination to create inactivity.

Speaking as someone who can currently only make 2 updates a week on average, personally I quite like the idea of either moving the time of update or moving to a system of rolling times. I realise that people such as yourself who are well served by the current timings would be against it and it would be worth investigating whether the people who would miss out because of the change are more/less than the people who would benefit from it, but it's something that should be seriously considered.

[Crushing Our Enemies]

If update times started regularly shifting, all it would do is ensure that no one could be update active for more than a few months out of the year. I should have addressed that in my #3 response...oh well.

[Mahaj]

And a rolling update would need to be announced. I'm worried that if it was a rolling update one day it'd just be like "surprise, Update is now at 3 PM EST!" and everyone's like "wait what?" and nothing happens.

[Jakker]

And a rolling update would need to be announced. I'm worried that if it was a rolling update one day it'd just be like "surprise, Update is now at 3 PM EST!" and everyone's like "wait what?" and nothing happens.

It would require a lot of coordinating on the part of the moderators and of the R/D organizations.

[Vladisvok Destino]

And a rolling update would need to be announced. I'm worried that if it was a rolling update one day it'd just be like "surprise, Update is now at 3 PM EST!" and everyone's like "wait what?" and nothing happens.

It would require a lot of coordinating on the part of the moderators and of the R/D organizations.

Not really, as long as a system is put in place in advance (for example, first day of the month) then the coordination required on the part of moderators would be minimal. As long as this information was publicly available all it would require is R/D organizations to link their troops to it.

[Crushing Our Enemies]

"Hi, I'm new, and I'd like to join your raiding group."

"When can you be online?"

"[random time range]"

"Great! Come back in April, when you can be useful."

[Vladisvok Destino]

"Hi, I'm new, and I'd like to join your raiding group."

"When can you be online?"

"[random time range]"

"Great! Come back in April, when you can be useful."

Whereas at the moment the conversation would go more like:

"Hi, I'm new, and I'd like to join your raiding group."

"When can you be online?"

"[random time range]"

"Oh sorry, neither update is between those time ranges, go away."

[Crushing Our Enemies]

That's why I think we need to make the times in between updates gameplay-able. The update should not be the only time to play. If we can bring back true stealth, then no one gets turned away, and the update still makes sense.

[Vladisvok Destino]

How would this change stop update "making sense"?

[Crushing Our Enemies]

Having the update time change every month would disrupt everything. How can we train people to be good updaters when we can't be online at the same time they are? It would guarantee that no one could be update active year round, and thus leadership during the update would have to be rotational. There aren't a lot of people who can call accurate update times, so it's entirely possible that we would end up with "dry spells" where no one who was update active knows how to raid.

[Unibot III]

A rolling update will not make the game accessible to new people in fact it would do the opposite for it's a thinly disguised gameplay suppression scheme.

I think that's exactly what is going and exactly why 10ki suggested it. But just to debate the content of the idea: the updates already are placed around peak times when roleplayers and others are still on NS but not roleplaying (which makes it good time to grab players for liberations) -- although I'd like to see the Major update moved an hour back to catch the American schoolkids, I think rolling updates would just make it more and more difficult to organize big missions.

[Sichuan Pepper]

Link to violets post : viewtopic.php?p=12108131#p12108131

It was suggested to make it more inclusive, not exclusive. It wont be convenient for everyone all of the time including myself however I believe over the course of a year everyone will have had the chance to be online at update if they want to participate in RD.
Right now it is the same people doing the same things and I can understand why some players feel it is working against them rather than making it work for them.
I have quite a number of nations in TITO that you would call non-updaters. I would like to see an opportunity for those nations to participate in update. It opens up not only the window to those nations to be active during update but also leadership chances in the organization. There are a lot of players that are overlooked currently simply because of time zones. I think there also may be players that do not participate in RD simply because of time restrictions. I imagine the same could be said for most defender / raider orgs but I cannot speak for them.
I imagine if admin decided to take on the idea that there would be plenty of warning given and it would be scheduled so not a sudden change.

[Xanthal]

There is something troubling about telling those who choose to participate in update activity daily that they won't be able to do that anymore, but I don't think it's necessarily an unreasonable price to pay for greater inclusiveness. I'll have to hear more from the raider and defender Representatives before taking a formal position.

[Cerian Quilor]

There is something troubling about telling those who choose to participate in update activity daily that they won't be able to do that anymore, but I don't think it's necessarily an unreasonable price to pay for greater inclusiveness. I'll have to hear more from the raider and defender Representatives before taking a formal position.

Here's the problem with a rolling update. Well, one of.

Raiders take target when update is a midnight EST. The raider point is a guy who can stay up till one the next day, and even two the day after that. But can he stay up till three, or make sure he wakes up (and is fully awake) at three? Four? Five? Six? A rolling update would render holding this impossible. There would also be periods when almost no raider activity happens. The vast majority of NS players come from the English-Speaking world. That means US/Canada/English-Speaking Carribean time zones, Australian ones, and British Ones, basically. yes, people from other parts of the world play, but much smaller number, when set against those from US.

A rolling update would lock many players out of R/D for most days of a given month. Yes, more people overall could take part in raiding, but less people at any given update, and occupations would be nearly a thing of the past. This would actually increase tag-raiding signifigantly.

[Vladisvok Destino]

Having the update time change every month would disrupt everything.

Not sure how that's relevant when the question was on what basis you claim it would stop update making sense, but ok.

How can we train people to be good updaters when we can't be online at the same time they are?

Do most raiders logoff as soon as update is over? If the change in timings is gradual (I realise the original suggestion was daily changes but personally I think once a month or something similar would work better.) Then surely there will be some level of cross-over before the original raiders are completely out of action?

It would guarantee that no one could be update active year round, and thus leadership during the update would have to be rotational.

Whereas at present you guarantee that people either can or can't be update active. Personally I don't see the problem with leadership being rotational as long as there is sufficient opportunity to make sure people are ready for leadership (see my comment above regarding timings.)

[Cerian Quilor]

If we did it monthly, then there would be entire MONTHS where almost nothing happened.

[Vladisvok Destino]

If we did it monthly, then there would be entire MONTHS where almost nothing happened.

Why?

[Unibot III]

I imagine the same could be said for most defender / raider orgs but I cannot speak for them.

On the contrary, if you switched update to certain parts of the day, I think the ability of groups to liberate would go down significantly; because where the updates are currently is actually fairly convenient for getting people -- the alternative timezone periods would be void of a lot of updaters for most groups.

It would be a bonus for raiders, they could get their few experienced updaters to stay up to an ungodly hour and raid with only TITO to watch out for ... I mean, since when is TITO a threat? All you have to do is raid one dump with enough puppets in it to fulfill TITO's standards and then switch and you've taken care of TITO. After that, TITO is compromised and you could take a region and hold it for months till the update-timezone changed to be more accessible for the actual defenders -- by then you would have probably let a dozen regions get griefed. But like you care, all you want is your opponents (other defenders) to be out of a job during the time-zone voids.

"Inclusiveness" my ass. If you wanted inclusiveness, you'd push for ways to include non-updaters into liberations, which you've rejected as a proposal because it might make liberating easier.

[Cerian Quilor]

If we did it monthly, then there would be entire MONTHS where almost nothing happened.

Why?

Becase there are time zones where compartatively few players live (and time zones where an outsized percentage of players live), and when the update is in the sweet spot for those time zones where few people live, or alternate, in the anti-sweet spot for the time sones where most people live, very little raiding activity would occur, because there would be far less people available to raid.

[[violet]]

where the updates are currently is actually fairly convenient

It's fairly convenient for people who play R/D now, because people for whom it's not convenient don't play. The group is self-selecting.

I just think it's a big barrier for someone interested in R/D that they need to be present at a particular time, especially in certain parts of the world. Maybe if they had a chance to try it out, they'd become committed enough to stay up late, but they're not going to do that otherwise.

It would mean that some people who currently play all the time would face periods when they couldn't, which is an obvious drawback, but I wonder if we'd get a much larger population of people who play sometimes, growing the whole community.

It would need to be coupled with some kind of visible timer, so everyone knew (roughly) when regions were going to update.

Anyway, I agree with the below, though: ideally we make R/D not all about the update, and then we can care about update times less:

That's why I think we need to make the times in between updates gameplay-able. The update should not be the only time to play. If we can bring back true stealth, then no one gets turned away, and the update still makes sense.

[Gest]

where the updates are currently is actually fairly convenient

It's fairly convenient for people who play R/D now, because people for whom it's not convenient don't play. The group is self-selecting.

I'm pretty sure the UDL liberated something tonight and a bunch of their players play at midnight so the idea that the current time zone is some land of milk and honey that divinely favors current game-players is preposterous. People make efforts to stay up.

Anyway, I agree with the below, though: ideally we make R/D not all about the update, and then we can care about update times less:

The update would still be important even in an all "political" universe. Stealth still requires coordination. This imposes a ridiculous amount of downtime for organizations, who are primary conduits for players to get involved in gameplay. We would need to train people seasonally in shifts but the most experienced players would eventually be locked out for the grievous sin of being active.

[Cormac Stark]

Just adding my voice to those who are opposing rolling updates as a solution. I agree that we need to get people who can't be online during one of the updates more actively involved, but we need to figure out ways to involve them outside of updates. Otherwise with rolling updates you're going to have exactly the long dry spells that many are predicting, and moreover you're going to have a lot of active players quitting the game altogether. I know many players who derive most if not all of their enjoyment of this game from R/D and the politics/interaction that surround it; forcing them into long dry spells practically means sending them an engraved invitation to stop playing altogether, or at the very least to take long breaks until update becomes accessible to them again.

Some will say: Good! These players will get involved in other areas of the game during these long dry spells. No, many of them won't. They have no interest in writing WA resolutions or roleplaying and they shouldn't be forced to by game-imposed dry spells anymore than WAers or roleplayers should be forced into R/D by making them take breaks from their activities.

The only rolling update proposal I could even remotely see myself supporting is a proposal that would rotate time zones to suit large blocs of players -- i.e., update that is better for Americans one month, update better for Brits the next, update better for Australians the next. But I think before we can even continue discussing this idea we need to see some cold, hard numbers. It would be ludicrous to cater to time zones in which we have very few active players to the detriment of the vast majority of active players.