The Blackfyre Rebellion - A Game of Thrones RP (OOC)

[Yaruqo]

This app looks great! Excited to have some Crownlands lords.

Not sure if you did this on purpose or not, but Ser Dallar Reyne is married to a Rykker, unhappily. Perhaps Ser Dallar and Lord Davos, or at least Ser Hoster will have some beef.

Accepted

Not at all on purpose, I wanted to kind of give them some background since, as far as I could find, before the Defiance of Duskendale and the downfall of House Darklyn, there wasn’t much that could be found of House Rykker. Thought it’d make sense to establish them as knights or something under the vassalage of the Darklyns.

[Acroticus]

This app looks great! Excited to have some Crownlands lords.

Not sure if you did this on purpose or not, but Ser Dallar Reyne is married to a Rykker, unhappily. Perhaps Ser Dallar and Lord Davos, or at least Ser Hoster will have some beef.

Accepted

Not at all on purpose, I wanted to kind of give them some background since, as far as I could find, before the Defiance of Duskendale and the downfall of House Darklyn, there wasn’t much that could be found of House Rykker. Thought it’d make sense to establish them as knights or something under the vassalage of the Darklyns.

Hmmmm I see. Maybe I should rework my characters actually. How would you feel about having a woman from House Darklyn unhappily married to Ser Dallar Reyne? It would make a lot of sense given Davos's position on the council, and given that Ser Dallar would be unhappily married, it would still give Davos a reason to oppose the Reynes in some respects.

[Yaruqo]

That would make sense. We can say that she’s the younger sister of Lord Davos to up the stakes.

[Acroticus]

That would make sense. We can say that she’s the younger sister of Lord Davos to up the stakes.

That would be great!

Here i what I had written for her, when I thought that the Rykkers owned Duskendale (you are correct, they would not have at this point). I would be happy to switch the names if that works for you, or please let me know if you would like to change anything.

Lady Dyanne Reyne (25 years old) - Formerly Lady Dyanne Rykker, Lady Dyanne was married to Ser Dallar in 252 AC. She detests Ser Dallar, and generally remains at Duskendale, only occasionally traveling to King’s Landing. Dallar is not very fond of her either, and for many years they failed to sire an heir. However, just recently Lady Dyanne announced she was pregnant. It is unclear whether the timing works to match Dyanne’s last trip to King’s Landing, and a number of lords speculate that the child is not Ser Dallar’s, although no one has made such an accusation.

[Of the Quendi]

Hmmmm I see. Maybe I should rework my characters actually. How would you feel about having a woman from House Darklyn unhappily married to Ser Dallar Reyne? It would make a lot of sense given Davos's position on the council, and given that Ser Dallar would be unhappily married, it would still give Davos a reason to oppose the Reynes in some respects.

That would make sense. We can say that she’s the younger sister of Lord Davos to up the stakes.

Tsk. The one member of the Small Council (well excepting Lucerys) who seems to be Jaehaerys' appointment and Jaehaerys' man and now you are arranging for him be related to the bloody Reynes.

[Acroticus]

Hmmmm I see. Maybe I should rework my characters actually. How would you feel about having a woman from House Darklyn unhappily married to Ser Dallar Reyne? It would make a lot of sense given Davos's position on the council, and given that Ser Dallar would be unhappily married, it would still give Davos a reason to oppose the Reynes in some respects.

That would make sense. We can say that she’s the younger sister of Lord Davos to up the stakes.

Tsk. The one member of the Small Council (well excepting Lucerys) who seems to be Jaehaerys' appointment and Jaehaerys' man and now you are arranging for him be related to the bloody Reynes.

Haha the Reynes have stacked the Council, no doubt

[Yaruqo]

Lady Dyanne Reyne (25 years old) - Formerly Lady Dyanne Rykker, Lady Dyanne was married to Ser Dallar in 252 AC. She detests Ser Dallar, and generally remains at Duskendale, only occasionally traveling to King’s Landing. Dallar is not very fond of her either, and for many years they failed to sire an heir. However, just recently Lady Dyanne announced she was pregnant. It is unclear whether the timing works to match Dyanne’s last trip to King’s Landing, and a number of lords speculate that the child is not Ser Dallar’s, although no one has made such an accusation.

That should be fine!

Tsk. The one member of the Small Council (well excepting Lucerys) who seems to be Jaehaerys' appointment and Jaehaerys' man and now you are arranging for him be related to the bloody Reynes.

Considering his sister is miserable with her Reyne husband, he’s probably going to be motivated to bug them a bit. You’re good

[Of the Quendi]

Haha the Reynes have stacked the Council, no doubt

Well once Jaehaerys has used them to defeat the Blackfyre the Reynes shall get their due.

Considering his sister is miserable with her Reyne husband, he’s probably going to be motivated to bug them a bit. You’re good

Glad to hear it.

[Acroticus]

Haha the Reynes have stacked the Council, no doubt

Well once Jaehaerys has used them to defeat the Blackfyre the Reynes shall get their due.

Haha well what exactly do you see the status being between Jaehaerys and Alastor Reyne? Jaehaerys is sick, but saw well enough to appoint Alastor Hand of the King in the first place.

[Of the Quendi]

Haha well what exactly do you see the status being between Jaehaerys and Alastor Reyne? Jaehaerys is sick, but saw well enough to appoint Alastor Hand of the King in the first place.

Well he didn't really appoint him as much as just inherit him from his father. I think Jaehaerys knows that House Targaryen is in a weakened position, and is aware that he needs help ruling, so Alastor is a necessary evil.

[Acroticus]

Haha well what exactly do you see the status being between Jaehaerys and Alastor Reyne? Jaehaerys is sick, but saw well enough to appoint Alastor Hand of the King in the first place.

Well he didn't really appoint him as much as just inherit him from his father. I think Jaehaerys knows that House Targaryen is in a weakened position, and is aware that he needs help ruling, so Alastor is a necessary evil.

Ah well that puts the Reynes in a weaker position than expected haha

[Dragos Bee]

Would it be out of character to ask for City Charters for Fairmarket and other Market Towns as the Tullys if I were to take them?

[Of the Quendi]

Ah well that puts the Reynes in a weaker position than expected haha

I don't think that necessarily weakens the Reynes much. Dependency is at least as reliable as love.

Would it be out of character to ask for City Charters for Fairmarket and other Market Towns as the Tullys if I were to take them?

Why would the Tully's be interested in something like that?

[Dragos Bee]

Ah well that puts the Reynes in a weaker position than expected haha

I don't think that necessarily weakens the Reynes much. Dependency is at least as reliable as love.

Would it be out of character to ask for City Charters for Fairmarket and other Market Towns as the Tullys if I were to take them?

Why would the Tully's be interested in something like that?

Oh, right; it's only the King who can grant a City Charter and only the King who can get money from it.

[Laurel]

I don't think that necessarily weakens the Reynes much. Dependency is at least as reliable as love.

Why would the Tully's be interested in something like that?

Oh, right; it's only the King who can grant a City Charter and only the King who can get money from it.

A town/city is a significant source of income to the lord paramount in whose region it resides, in the form of beings hubs for trade, and there’s a lot of money to be made from import duties, port fees, warehousing fees, and other taxes. The Iron Throne gets its piece, of course. Maidenpool or Stony Sept would be good options for growth, if House Tully had more influence/power over their lords.

[Dragos Bee]

Oh, right; it's only the King who can grant a City Charter and only the King who can get money from it.

A town/city is a significant source of income to the lord paramount in whose region it resides, in the form of beings hubs for trade, and there’s a lot of money to be made from import duties, port fees, warehousing fees, and other taxes. The Iron Throne gets its piece, of course. Maidenpool or Stony Sept would be good options for growth, if House Tully had more influence/power over their lords.

Yes! I was thinking of getting City Charters for every market town in the Riverlands, btw.

[Acroticus]

A town/city is a significant source of income to the lord paramount in whose region it resides, in the form of beings hubs for trade, and there’s a lot of money to be made from import duties, port fees, warehousing fees, and other taxes. The Iron Throne gets its piece, of course. Maidenpool or Stony Sept would be good options for growth, if House Tully had more influence/power over their lords.

Yes! I was thinking of getting City Charters for every market town in the Riverlands, btw.

Hmmm not sure it would make sense to change the world that drastically. If you would like to be a House that pulls wealth from a market or city though, the Hightowers and Manderlys are available!

[Laurel]

A town/city is a significant source of income to the lord paramount in whose region it resides, in the form of beings hubs for trade, and there’s a lot of money to be made from import duties, port fees, warehousing fees, and other taxes. The Iron Throne gets its piece, of course. Maidenpool or Stony Sept would be good options for growth, if House Tully had more influence/power over their lords.

Yes! I was thinking of getting City Charters for every market town in the Riverlands, btw.

Maybe too drastic for Westeros. The Lord Paramount needs to be very strong lest these towns/cities grow out of their control.

[Dragos Bee]

Yes! I was thinking of getting City Charters for every market town in the Riverlands, btw.

Maybe too drastic for Westeros. The Lord Paramount needs to be very strong lest these towns/cities grow out of their control.

OOCly, that's the idea. ICly, very good point - Shortsighted desire for wealth can only go so far...

[Of the Quendi]

A town/city is a significant source of income to the lord paramount in whose region it resides, in the form of beings hubs for trade, and there’s a lot of money to be made from import duties, port fees, warehousing fees, and other taxes. The Iron Throne gets its piece, of course. Maidenpool or Stony Sept would be good options for growth, if House Tully had more influence/power over their lords.

We don't really know much about city governance and economics work in Westeros. We know that city charters are a thing (because The World of Ice and Fire mentions that Fairmarket, Lord Harroway's Town and Saltpans where denied them), but what would be in such charters is not, to my knowledge, ever specified. We also know that Aerys II apparently raised and lowered tariffs on Oldtown, Lannisport and King's Landing according to his fancy, suggesting to me quite significant royal authority over chartered cities (if indeed these places have charters).

Going by medieval European customs from England and the HRE it was however the crown more so than the local nobles who benefitted from city developments. Chartered cities got some liberties to do their own things outside of the feudal system, replacing a local lord (or bishop) with their own, usually guild based, semi-democratic and meritocratic governance. The local lord might of course benefit from the growth that having a market and some industry might bring to his region but since he wouldn't directly benefit from tax and tariffs of the city (which would go directly to the crown), I would say the English and HRE case seem to suggest that the crown is (apart from the city itself of course) the principal beneficiary from the wealth of cities.

In the Westerosi case the mention of Aerys II's tariff policy also seem to suggest to me that the Iron Throne exercise quite a lot of influence over the cities. Though again it is highly speculative, since GRRM devotes little attention to the affairs of cities and Westeros appears to have no equivalent to the European medieval commune movement to temper its feudal nature.

Maybe too drastic for Westeros. The Lord Paramount needs to be very strong lest these towns/cities grow out of their control.

OOCly, that's the idea. ICly, very good point - Shortsighted desire for wealth can only go so far...

Excellent point about the danger of a weak lord giving his towns autonomy only to find them difficult to control. There is no shortage of examples of that in medieval European history.

Anyway I understand that you have a personal sympathy for cities Dragos but what would be the IC reasons for House Tully to feel that way? They are feudal lords, why would they want their towns to gain autonomy or even independence from their rule?

[Dragos Bee]

A town/city is a significant source of income to the lord paramount in whose region it resides, in the form of beings hubs for trade, and there’s a lot of money to be made from import duties, port fees, warehousing fees, and other taxes. The Iron Throne gets its piece, of course. Maidenpool or Stony Sept would be good options for growth, if House Tully had more influence/power over their lords.

We don't really know much about city governance and economics work in Westeros. We know that city charters are a thing (because The World of Ice and Fire mentions that Fairmarket, Lord Harroway's Town and Saltpans where denied them), but what would be in such charters is not, to my knowledge, ever specified. We also know that Aerys II apparently raised and lowered tariffs on Oldtown, Lannisport and King's Landing according to his fancy, suggesting to me quite significant royal authority over chartered cities (if indeed these places have charters).

Going by medieval European customs from England and the HRE it was however the crown more so than the local nobles who benefitted from city developments. Chartered cities got some liberties to do their own things outside of the feudal system, replacing a local lord (or bishop) with their own, usually guild based, semi-democratic and meritocratic governance. The local lord might of course benefit from the growth that having a market and some industry might bring to his region but since he wouldn't directly benefit from tax and tariffs of the city (which would go directly to the crown), I would say the English and HRE case seem to suggest that the crown is (apart from the city itself of course) the principal beneficiary from the wealth of cities.

In the Westerosi case the mention of Aerys II's tariff policy also seem to suggest to me that the Iron Throne exercise quite a lot of influence over the cities. Though again it is highly speculative, since GRRM devotes little attention to the affairs of cities and Westeros appears to have no equivalent to the European medieval commune movement to temper its feudal nature.

OOCly, that's the idea. ICly, very good point - Shortsighted desire for wealth can only go so far...

Excellent point about the danger of a weak lord giving his towns autonomy only to find them difficult to control. There is no shortage of examples of that in medieval European history.

Anyway I understand that you have a personal sympathy for cities Dragos but what would be the IC reasons for House Tully to feel that way? They are feudal lords, why would they want their towns to gain autonomy or even independence from their rule?

1.) Yes, and people have pointed out that GRR Martin neglecting Medieval Cities and Communes (as well as Guilds) to focus entirely on Feudalism and Feudal relations weakens his claims that he's portraying Medieval Times 'as they really are'. Note that it's irrelevant to the matter at hand, though; I just wanted to remark on it.

2.) I was thinking of giving House Tully a weak lord who got himself into debt and needed money in the short to medium term.

[Lunas Legion]

We don't really know much about city governance and economics work in Westeros. We know that city charters are a thing (because The World of Ice and Fire mentions that Fairmarket, Lord Harroway's Town and Saltpans where denied them), but what would be in such charters is not, to my knowledge, ever specified. We also know that Aerys II apparently raised and lowered tariffs on Oldtown, Lannisport and King's Landing according to his fancy, suggesting to me quite significant royal authority over chartered cities (if indeed these places have charters).

Going by medieval European customs from England and the HRE it was however the crown more so than the local nobles who benefitted from city developments. Chartered cities got some liberties to do their own things outside of the feudal system, replacing a local lord (or bishop) with their own, usually guild based, semi-democratic and meritocratic governance. The local lord might of course benefit from the growth that having a market and some industry might bring to his region but since he wouldn't directly benefit from tax and tariffs of the city (which would go directly to the crown), I would say the English and HRE case seem to suggest that the crown is (apart from the city itself of course) the principal beneficiary from the wealth of cities.

In the Westerosi case the mention of Aerys II's tariff policy also seem to suggest to me that the Iron Throne exercise quite a lot of influence over the cities. Though again it is highly speculative, since GRRM devotes little attention to the affairs of cities and Westeros appears to have no equivalent to the European medieval commune movement to temper its feudal nature.

Excellent point about the danger of a weak lord giving his towns autonomy only to find them difficult to control. There is no shortage of examples of that in medieval European history.

Anyway I understand that you have a personal sympathy for cities Dragos but what would be the IC reasons for House Tully to feel that way? They are feudal lords, why would they want their towns to gain autonomy or even independence from their rule?

1.) Yes, and people have pointed out that GRR Martin neglecting Medieval Cities and Communes (as well as Guilds) to focus entirely on Feudalism and Feudal relations weakens his claims that he's portraying Medieval Times 'as they really are'. Note that it's irrelevant to the matter at hand, though; I just wanted to remark on it.

2.) I was thinking of giving House Tully a weak lord who got himself into debt and needed money in the short to medium term.

Honestly the first is what most annoys me about GoT. It gets fairly close-ish many times but then it misses something critical or ignores something critical and suddenly something vital to the fabric of the social-political landscape of the Middle Ages is just gone.

[Dragos Bee]

1.) Yes, and people have pointed out that GRR Martin neglecting Medieval Cities and Communes (as well as Guilds) to focus entirely on Feudalism and Feudal relations weakens his claims that he's portraying Medieval Times 'as they really are'. Note that it's irrelevant to the matter at hand, though; I just wanted to remark on it.

2.) I was thinking of giving House Tully a weak lord who got himself into debt and needed money in the short to medium term.

Honestly the first is what most annoys me about GoT. It gets fairly close-ish many times but then it misses something critical or ignores something critical and suddenly something vital to the fabric of the social-political landscape of the Middle Ages is just gone.

Yes!

[Lunas Legion]

Honestly the first is what most annoys me about GoT. It gets fairly close-ish many times but then it misses something critical or ignores something critical and suddenly something vital to the fabric of the social-political landscape of the Middle Ages is just gone.

Yes!

The Faith of the Seven is one of the big ones, since it doesn't have anywhere near seemingly the historical influence the Papacy and Catholic Church had or the (to a degree) the moderating influence the Church had on medieval conflicts. Just as an example with the Peace/Truce of God movements you had armies flat-out refusing to fight IIRC because it was a Sunday or a saint's feast day and that medieval rulers were willing to enforce this on their subordinates. GoT has all the window dressing, but none of the actual substance of medieval religion.

[Dragos Bee]

Yes!

The Faith of the Seven is one of the big ones, since it doesn't have anywhere near seemingly the historical influence the Papacy and Catholic Church had or the (to a degree) the moderating influence the Church had on medieval conflicts. Just as an example with the Peace/Truce of God movements you had armies flat-out refusing to fight IIRC because it was a Sunday or a saint's feast day and that medieval rulers were willing to enforce this on their subordinates. GoT has all the window dressing, but none of the actual substance of medieval religion.

YES!

But let's continue this elsewhere; we're derailing the thread.