New Civilizations [OOC | Always Open]

[Ralnis]

How advanced are the proto-Polynesian cultures as of right now?

[G-Tech Corporation]

How advanced are the proto-Polynesian cultures as of right now?

Hmm. Depends what you mean - there are cultures that are ethnically proto-Polynesia in Indonesia and other parts of SEA that are pretty advanced. The actual Austronesians are basically only just starting their migrations, so they're effectively nonexistent on what we consider the Polynesian islands.

[Ralnis]

How advanced are the proto-Polynesian cultures as of right now?

Hmm. Depends what you mean - there are cultures that are ethnically proto-Polynesia in Indonesia and other parts of SEA that are pretty advanced. The actual Austronesians are basically only just starting their migrations, so they're effectively nonexistent on what we consider the Polynesian islands.

Other parts of SEA that aren't touched by the influences of China our wanderer?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Hmm. Depends what you mean - there are cultures that are ethnically proto-Polynesia in Indonesia and other parts of SEA that are pretty advanced. The actual Austronesians are basically only just starting their migrations, so they're effectively nonexistent on what we consider the Polynesian islands.

Other parts of SEA that aren't touched by the influences of China our wanderer?

Sure. There are only minor Chinese influences into Vietnam/Malaysia, but they've got decent bronzeworking and world-leading maritime prowess.

[Ralnis]

Other parts of SEA that aren't touched by the influences of China our wanderer?

Sure. There are only minor Chinese influences into Vietnam/Malaysia, but they've got decent bronzeworking and world-leading maritime prowess.

In relation to China?

[Kreigsreich of Iron]

I assure you, I make my personality the personality of my characters. For instance, the writing sample I submitted was something I might have written. Just ask my friends.

*throwing up of hands*

Alright, alright, you’re confident. Accepted. I look forward to seeing what you do with the proto-proto-Gauls.

I am nothing if not confident.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Sure. There are only minor Chinese influences into Vietnam/Malaysia, but they've got decent bronzeworking and world-leading maritime prowess.

In relation to China?

Well, not YRS-grade metallurgy, no, or mass ship fabrication techniques. But Polynesian shipbuilding is going to be well-proven for the open ocean, compared to the riparian designs of Aaron.

[Ralnis]

In relation to China?

Well, not YRS-grade metallurgy, no, or mass ship fabrication techniques. But Polynesian shipbuilding is going to be well-proven for the open ocean, compared to the riparian designs of Aaron.

Hmm, might just become King Kamehameha and make an Asian Sea Peoples to push YRS out of the seas. Warcyfle reborn?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Well, not YRS-grade metallurgy, no, or mass ship fabrication techniques. But Polynesian shipbuilding is going to be well-proven for the open ocean, compared to the riparian designs of Aaron.

Hmm, might just become King Kamehameha and make an Asian Sea Peoples to push YRS out of the seas. Warcyfle reborn?

Seem like a legitimate stratagem. Just keep in mind that you'll need secured supply lines to Thailand/Vietnam if you want metals better than flint or obsidian for your warriors. The Pacific Islands aren't exactly known for their ore-rich compositions.

[Ralnis]

Hmm, might just become King Kamehameha and make an Asian Sea Peoples to push YRS out of the seas. Warcyfle reborn?

Seem like a legitimate stratagem. Just keep in mind that you'll need secured supply lines to Thailand/Vietnam if you want metals better than flint or obsidian for your warriors. The Pacific Islands aren't exactly known for their ore-rich compositions.

No, but starting a maritime nation close to major suppliers and Japan allows for a massive middle-man that can grow from the trade. Extend this to Australia tribes around the coast and you have a widespread culture and trade network that brings a lot of materials to force the Pale Emperor to give up the seas to the powerful Polynesians.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Seem like a legitimate stratagem. Just keep in mind that you'll need secured supply lines to Thailand/Vietnam if you want metals better than flint or obsidian for your warriors. The Pacific Islands aren't exactly known for their ore-rich compositions.

No, but starting a maritime nation close to major suppliers and Japan allows for a massive middle-man that can grow from the trade. Extend this to Australia tribes around the coast and you have a widespread culture and trade network that brings a lot of materials to force the Pale Emperor to give up the seas to the powerful Polynesians.

Certainly possible. Especially as I'm sure China has been happily deforesting their already-deforested hinterlands to drive industrial growth, and thus will have a difficult time with shipbuilding.

[G-Tech Corporation]

That was a fun post Melon. I enjoy seeing the stories of how folks accommodate themselves to new social fabrics with zero social capital, I think, the most of our Author arcs.

[Melon Heads]

That was a fun post Melon. I enjoy seeing the stories of how folks accommodate themselves to new social fabrics with zero social capital, I think, the most of our Author arcs.

Thank you! I've had fun trying to figure out how to have them integrate into Waset culture, though I realize that my writing and characterization may not be the most accurate to how people may have actually behaved in that time and place, it is fun to write this kind of isekai situation. And at the end of the day people are just people, and I like to believe that most people are inherently kind. (Which is a bit naive yeah but it helps my depression damnit)

Not going to lie, sometimes I get a bit turned around with the more geopolitical, war based or technology based discussions yall have, I sure as shit don't know how to make metal weaponry and armor like some of yalls characters are doing and figuring out. >_> It is still cool to read though and I enjoy seeing the updates even if I can't comment much on them. Of course, if there ends up being another plague of some kind I may have an advantage here... : P Guess we'll have to see where the story takes us

[G-Tech Corporation]

That was a fun post Melon. I enjoy seeing the stories of how folks accommodate themselves to new social fabrics with zero social capital, I think, the most of our Author arcs.

Thank you! I've had fun trying to figure out how to have them integrate into Waset culture, though I realize that my writing and characterization may not be the most accurate to how people may have actually behaved in that time and place, it is fun to write this kind of isekai situation. And at the end of the day people are just people, and I like to believe that most people are inherently kind. (Which is a bit naive yeah but it helps my depression damnit)

Not going to lie, sometimes I get a bit turned around with the more geopolitical, war based or technology based discussions yall have, I sure as shit don't know how to make metal weaponry and armor like some of yalls characters are doing and figuring out. >_> It is still cool to read though and I enjoy seeing the updates even if I can't comment much on them. Of course, if there ends up being another plague of some kind I may have an advantage here... : P Guess we'll have to see where the story takes us

To me, that comes from the natural evolution from a hierarchy of needs being gradually fulfilled. I think most Authors went through a period just like you are in now, laboring to establish any living situation and credibility within their community. Then slowly but surely folks progress up from there to less immediate needs, like security for their friends and family, freedom from want, the simplification of manual labor... and then you end up an autocratic despot!

[Doje Islands]

To me, that comes from the natural evolution from a hierarchy of needs being gradually fulfilled. I think most Authors went through a period just like you are in now, laboring to establish any living situation and credibility within their community. Then slowly but surely folks progress up from there to less immediate needs, like security for their friends and family, freedom from want, the simplification of manual labor... and then you end up an autocratic despot!

Just those things one needs to live a fulfilling life.

[Melon Heads]

To me, that comes from the natural evolution from a hierarchy of needs being gradually fulfilled. I think most Authors went through a period just like you are in now, laboring to establish any living situation and credibility within their community. Then slowly but surely folks progress up from there to less immediate needs, like security for their friends and family, freedom from want, the simplification of manual labor... and then you end up an autocratic despot!

Just those things one needs to live a fulfilling life.

It's like one of those pyramid diagrams of what a person needs in life, Maslows Hierarchy of Needs, starting at life necessities such as air and water at the bottom of the pyramid, but at the top instead of self actualization it's "Be the next/first Alexander the Great" and a sunglasses emoji

[G-Tech Corporation]

Just those things one needs to live a fulfilling life.

It's like one of those pyramid diagrams of what a person needs in life, Maslows Hierarchy of Needs, starting at life necessities such as air and water at the bottom of the pyramid, but at the top instead of self actualization it's "Be the next/first Alexander the Great" and a sunglasses emoji

Honestly, I don't think it even gets into egomania or megalomania. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, after all. You start out just wanting to make sure that your friends don't get robbed by bandits every winter, next thing you know the tribe next door is building a confederation threatened by your new military patrols, then you have to make sure they won't destroy your new home out of fear... and so on and so forth.

[Melon Heads]

Probably a stupid question but re: the NS zombie event thing is it safe to assume my population will go back to normal after the event is done? Cause as of right now my country isn't looking too hot.
( °□°）

[G-Tech Corporation]

Probably a stupid question but re: the NS zombie event thing is it safe to assume my population will go back to normal after the event is done? Cause as of right now my country isn't looking too hot.
( °□°）

Oh totally. That’s how it always goes.

[Melon Heads]

Probably a stupid question but re: the NS zombie event thing is it safe to assume my population will go back to normal after the event is done? Cause as of right now my country isn't looking too hot.
( °□°）

Oh totally. That’s how it always goes.

Ok thank you lol I just wanted to check. Would be kind of miffed to lose almost all my guys when I was almost at 750m.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Oh totally. That’s how it always goes.

Ok thank you lol I just wanted to check. Would be kind of miffed to lose almost all my guys when I was almost at 750m.

Heh yes. I think plenty of folks would be very grumpy if that happened - hence why it doesn’t.

[Melon Heads]

Just realized Nanowrimo starts today and I had forgotten to prepare for it, whoops. :T Any of yall do that project before, or plan on doing it this year?

[G-Tech Corporation]

My apologies for missing this, Oro. Bottom of an OOC page is a traditional place to lose things when the page moves forward.

1. They grow it themselves. Every city and town has agricultural areas surrounding it and keeps food reserves.

Mm. I could probably go find the math somewhere, but it isn't desperately important. My only note here would be that there are pretty valid reasons for ancient settlement patterns revolving around a large number of small agrarian villages rather than large cities and towns ringing in fields. Assuming you're keeping all of your farmers, or a very large majority of them, within the walls to protect them from enemy attacks, you're going to lose large amounts of agricultural productivity making those workers transit in and out of their city every morning/evening/etc.

Not to mention storing their tools within the walls, stabling their draft animals there, and whatnot. Proximity to economic instruments is pretty important to efficiently using those economic instruments. You can absolutely decide that China's interests are best served by her farmers needing to spend significant portions of their day commuting back and forth between their fields and their warehouses/homes, but just keep in mind that will have impacts, rather substantial ones.

2. What does "ball and stick" mean?

Essentially, what I discussed above - you've concentrated your people out of their small sprawling villages into a smaller number of larger settlements connected via trade routes.

Why does having a centralized state mean I am able to use LESS resources? That doesn't make any sense.

This isn't my decision, this is what you decided when you stated months back that the MPS only integrates citizens it can effectively control/provide resources to. This was when Joohan asked you how the MPS handles large-scale demands on her bureaucracy, and you clarified that the bureaucracy was care to only integrate a number of citizens it can effectively monitor and supply, not just whoever happens to show up.

By that logic, China's size is limited by China's bureaucracy, which is a burgeoning entity growing steadily. That steady growth means the MPS has a functional level of control of both citizenry and goods, but also means large swathes of inhabitants who would normally be integrated into Chinese society under other more permissive social models... aren't.

I don't need guys on trade routes 100% of the time, I need them to destroy nearby bandit camps and convoy protection can handle the rest. Provincial armies do not need to be spread thin because their job is to destroy large groupings of bandits inhibiting trade or causing other problems. If a tribe is so large as to endanger control of a province a central government army shows up and enslaves a lot of them while killing the ones China's forced labor system can't take on. There is no reason for anything you describe to be happening, it goes against every structure I've been trying to build.

"Convoy protection can handle the rest" - so there's a tertiary level of military forces which is below even the provincial armies that protects convoys?

See, I fundamentally disagree with your argument here: that your provincial armies are capable of deploying for offensive action to destroy enemy concentrations. You yourself have stated previously that that is not a task the provincial armies take on.

They never clear out large parts of the countryside on their own.

Even if we put that premise aside for a moment, your statement here just isn't reflective of China's capabilities.

If a tribe is so large as to endanger control of a province a central government army shows up and enslaves a lot of them while killing the ones China's forced labor system can't take on.

I don't know anything about the makeup of tribal entities around China that leads me to a conclusion where there are less than, say, a hundred tribal entities that can meaningfully threaten China's holdings. China has dozens of cities, each of which borders both large interior and exterior spaces where polities exist with little love for China. Again, even if China had five times as many central campaign armies than she does, for a total of ten, and only two in every ten enemies of China bothers to engage in raiding every raiding seasons... that math has at least ten Chinese cities under military threat which the Chinese central armies can't respond to due to being busy elsewhere.

Not every military threat of scale can be responded to simultaneously by the central armies. Nowhere close. Thus the task of containing those threats falls to the provincial armies... who as we've discussed before, face an uphill battle to see victory.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

Well, Paris can't possibly be a less favourable opener than Roskilde. ;p

[Orostan]

My apologies for missing this, Oro. Bottom of an OOC page is a traditional place to lose things when the page moves forward.

1. They grow it themselves. Every city and town has agricultural areas surrounding it and keeps food reserves.

Mm. I could probably go find the math somewhere, but it isn't desperately important. My only note here would be that there are pretty valid reasons for ancient settlement patterns revolving around a large number of small agrarian villages rather than large cities and towns ringing in fields. Assuming you're keeping all of your farmers, or a very large majority of them, within the walls to protect them from enemy attacks, you're going to lose large amounts of agricultural productivity making those workers transit in and out of their city every morning/evening/etc.

Not to mention storing their tools within the walls, stabling their draft animals there, and whatnot. Proximity to economic instruments is pretty important to efficiently using those economic instruments. You can absolutely decide that China's interests are best served by her farmers needing to spend significant portions of their day commuting back and forth between their fields and their warehouses/homes, but just keep in mind that will have impacts, rather substantial ones.

2. What does "ball and stick" mean?

Essentially, what I discussed above - you've concentrated your people out of their small sprawling villages into a smaller number of larger settlements connected via trade routes.

Why does having a centralized state mean I am able to use LESS resources? That doesn't make any sense.

This isn't my decision, this is what you decided when you stated months back that the MPS only integrates citizens it can effectively control/provide resources to. This was when Joohan asked you how the MPS handles large-scale demands on her bureaucracy, and you clarified that the bureaucracy was care to only integrate a number of citizens it can effectively monitor and supply, not just whoever happens to show up.

By that logic, China's size is limited by China's bureaucracy, which is a burgeoning entity growing steadily. That steady growth means the MPS has a functional level of control of both citizenry and goods, but also means large swathes of inhabitants who would normally be integrated into Chinese society under other more permissive social models... aren't.

I don't need guys on trade routes 100% of the time, I need them to destroy nearby bandit camps and convoy protection can handle the rest. Provincial armies do not need to be spread thin because their job is to destroy large groupings of bandits inhibiting trade or causing other problems. If a tribe is so large as to endanger control of a province a central government army shows up and enslaves a lot of them while killing the ones China's forced labor system can't take on. There is no reason for anything you describe to be happening, it goes against every structure I've been trying to build.

"Convoy protection can handle the rest" - so there's a tertiary level of military forces which is below even the provincial armies that protects convoys?

See, I fundamentally disagree with your argument here: that your provincial armies are capable of deploying for offensive action to destroy enemy concentrations. You yourself have stated previously that that is not a task the provincial armies take on.

They never clear out large parts of the countryside on their own.

Even if we put that premise aside for a moment, your statement here just isn't reflective of China's capabilities.

If a tribe is so large as to endanger control of a province a central government army shows up and enslaves a lot of them while killing the ones China's forced labor system can't take on.

I don't know anything about the makeup of tribal entities around China that leads me to a conclusion where there are less than, say, a hundred tribal entities that can meaningfully threaten China's holdings. China has dozens of cities, each of which borders both large interior and exterior spaces where polities exist with little love for China. Again, even if China had five times as many central campaign armies than she does, for a total of ten, and only two in every ten enemies of China bothers to engage in raiding every raiding seasons... that math has at least ten Chinese cities under military threat which the Chinese central armies can't respond to due to being busy elsewhere.

Not every military threat of scale can be responded to simultaneously by the central armies. Nowhere close. Thus the task of containing those threats falls to the provincial armies... who as we've discussed before, face an uphill battle to see victory.

1. Populations were rural because they had to be spread out to cultivate the best land. I have less people total than in a medium sized city. There is no reason for me to not have denser farming towns of a few thousand people, and there's no reason it would reduce productivity. It's a ten minute walk, maximum.

2. There is no reason that would make my state less centralized. I do not need that many bureaucrats to run a 400,000 person empire. The Roman Empire in its later stages was run by a few thousand guys in Italy. I don't even need most merchants to be literate. Non-integrated people are non-integrated at this point after more than a decade of the state existing because they live in a remote area. They would still exist but their integration would be a logistical challenge rather than an issue of state capacity. If I was running an organized national police force or a bunch of other institutions you'd associate with a modern state maybe I would have problems but I'm not doing that. A bureaucrats job is to collect taxes, keep records on those taxes, and plan the economy. The job isn't that much more of an addition because even an illiterate person can make a mark on a slip of bamboo for every iron ingot that comes out of a furnace. The biggest issue I think would exist is coordination and putting together long term economic plans which would actually require a lot of work and more bureaucrats.

3. Convoy protection is what provincial armies are doing most of the time. It's not like every summer there is some campaign. Authorities generally don't know bandits are in an area unless they start robbing people. It is entirely possible for a tribe of bandits to travel the length of China and not be detected by anyone as long as they don't cross a common travel route or go near a border which is being watched. 90% of what a provincial army does is being a deterrent and walking around looking dangerous. The other 10% is massed attacks on bandits in which the Chinese usually outnumber the bandits. The action they deploy for is always defensive in nature because they're getting rid of a force attacking a trade route or trying to sack towns. They probably don't even have pitched battles with bandits that much, the moment a bandit tribe is detected and the Chinese start looking for their camp is the moment they start moving on most likely because fighting isn't profitable.

4. Their job is to go to a bandit camp near a trade route and get rid of that. Most of the time they only have to fight a little bit because by the time a big army gets anywhere the bandits will have left if they could.

5. Any significant threat to a province requires an enemy to spend time trying to besiege a settlement. Doing that effectively requires time and resources. The worst thing bandits can do is raid vital trade routes - which is why a provincial army would be protecting convoys. Every Chinese province has thousands of men it can raise for a short campaign and if they lose that campaign they have a central government army they can call on to deal with the threat. The objective of a provincial army is not to destroy a large bandit tribe which has the resources to take cities but to give them enough problems so that the central government army can arrive or neighboring provinces can put together a force to relieve them.

I am not trying to be everywhere at once. I do not think provincial armies would have serious issues doing their jobs. When they're asked to fight a giant horde of bandits on their own they are being asked to do something which is not their job and which they are not going to be competent enough to do. I don't think that would happen very frequently anyways because any group which allows its territory to be used for that type of border raid would be destroyed, and any bandit tribe doing that in China's interior is making itself a big target.

I think we have a basic disagreement over China's defensive strategy. I am telling you that my strategy relies on having fewer settlements which can be better defended. Even if I lose a town or two the time it takes a group to pillage that town is time a province can organize its defenses and call on other provinces for aid. I will still be taking economic losses and losing people to bandits - they just will not be state threatening losses because I have a military system set up to deal with the issue in a way which will under the worst of conditions slow down the enemy a lot.

The bandits who still exist and are actual bandits and not what at this point would be ideologically motivated rebels would be making deals with the central government to live in their patch of land and trade for the stuff they want because that's more profitable than trying to fight hordes of peasant soldiers who are very motivated to kill them. I think having a giant mass of people who think only of pillaging Chinese cities is unrealistic at this point because even if they outnumber the Chinese significantly, a province is always going to be able to destroy the one which attacks. If they get coordinated and start organizing simulations attacks or joining together to go for larger settlements that is why I have multiple provinces who can send aid to their neighbors. If all of these provinces are under attack that's why I have a central government army.

The average bandit tribe which invades a province will be outnumbered by the provincial army. Their success rests on stealing shit and moving before the Chinese can organize a response. A large tribe or tribal alliance which invades a province and has staying power because they outnumber or are better soldiers than the locals will have to deal with other provinces sending aid first and then a central government army they have almost no chance of surviving a fight with. In addition if they come back after the campaigning season ends they will probably have to fight a provincial army which spent the off-season training with the central government army.

It is not profitable for bandits to be doing what you think they are doing and if it was I would simply move the entirety of my population into the north china plain which has a carrying capacity of tens of millions and is easier to protect. Most bandits who are opportunistic would make deals with the Chinese to trade for what they want. The ones that aren't would be in the minority.