New Civilizations [OOC | Always Open]

[Orostan]

average tribal person according to G-Tech

[G-Tech Corporation]

Well, Paris can't possibly be a less favourable opener than Roskilde. ;p

Alas, but the bog iron is so plentiful.

[G-Tech Corporation]

1. Populations were rural because they had to be spread out to cultivate the best land. I have less people total than in a medium sized city. There is no reason for me to not have denser farming towns of a few thousand people, and there's no reason it would reduce productivity. It's a ten minute walk, maximum.

So, which is it - four hundred thousand people distributed across ~a hundred settlements of a few thousand each, or a few dozen settlements of greater size? I've heard you argue both.

2. There is no reason that would make my state less centralized. I do not need that many bureaucrats to run a 400,000 person empire. The Roman Empire in its later stages was run by a few thousand guys in Italy. I don't even need most merchants to be literate. Non-integrated people are non-integrated at this point after more than a decade of the state existing because they live in a remote area. They would still exist but their integration would be a logistical challenge rather than an issue of state capacity. If I was running an organized national police force or a bunch of other institutions you'd associate with a modern state maybe I would have problems but I'm not doing that. A bureaucrats job is to collect taxes, keep records on those taxes, and plan the economy. The job isn't that much more of an addition because even an illiterate person can make a mark on a slip of bamboo for every iron ingot that comes out of a furnace. The biggest issue I think would exist is coordination and putting together long term economic plans which would actually require a lot of work and more bureaucrats.

...if you want me to assess your level of central control and economic coordination as equivalent to the late Roman Empire, I'm happy to work with that for your explanation of what the YRS functions as. But based on your posts, I think you want a much higher level of logistical and political control than that. Which circles back to the initial problem.

3. Convoy protection is what provincial armies are doing most of the time. It's not like every summer there is some campaign. Authorities generally don't know bandits are in an area unless they start robbing people. It is entirely possible for a tribe of bandits to travel the length of China and not be detected by anyone as long as they don't cross a common travel route or go near a border which is being watched. 90% of what a provincial army does is being a deterrent and walking around looking dangerous. The other 10% is massed attacks on bandits in which the Chinese usually outnumber the bandits. The action they deploy for is always defensive in nature because they're getting rid of a force attacking a trade route or trying to sack towns. They probably don't even have pitched battles with bandits that much, the moment a bandit tribe is detected and the Chinese start looking for their camp is the moment they start moving on most likely because fighting isn't profitable.

See, here's our fundamental disconnect: you think that China's enemies are scattered bandit groups who only pose an intermittent threat to isolated portions of the state. That is not, however, the case. China's enemies are existing polities who have social cohesion and political leadership. Just like China, they will be marshalling armies and sending out those armies to endeavor to capture, loot, or seize Chinese territory and goods for their own during campaign seasons. Fundamentally these polities outweigh China heavily in terms of populace - while she might be able to achieve local force superiority by deploying her central armies or grouping together provincial levies from a variety of towns, such consolidations inherently leave regions of China undefended and vulnerable to attack.

If you want to work with the system you've mooted, tell me why China can outweigh, in absolute numbers, agrarian societies with significantly greater command of arable land and total land area. If you can give me a convincing argument for that, I'll accept the premise that China's provincial armies are capable of offering an effective defensive of all of her territories and the trade routes between them.

[Culway]

Author Application
Name: Rhoam Ackman
Age: 35
Height and Weight: H: 6’11” W: 195lbs
Physical Description: Mostly muscle, averagely smart for this time period, accurate, fast, intimidating, and careful
( Optional ) Picture:

[Orostan]

1. Populations were rural because they had to be spread out to cultivate the best land. I have less people total than in a medium sized city. There is no reason for me to not have denser farming towns of a few thousand people, and there's no reason it would reduce productivity. It's a ten minute walk, maximum.

So, which is it - four hundred thousand people distributed across ~a hundred settlements of a few thousand each, or a few dozen settlements of greater size? I've heard you argue both.

2. There is no reason that would make my state less centralized. I do not need that many bureaucrats to run a 400,000 person empire. The Roman Empire in its later stages was run by a few thousand guys in Italy. I don't even need most merchants to be literate. Non-integrated people are non-integrated at this point after more than a decade of the state existing because they live in a remote area. They would still exist but their integration would be a logistical challenge rather than an issue of state capacity. If I was running an organized national police force or a bunch of other institutions you'd associate with a modern state maybe I would have problems but I'm not doing that. A bureaucrats job is to collect taxes, keep records on those taxes, and plan the economy. The job isn't that much more of an addition because even an illiterate person can make a mark on a slip of bamboo for every iron ingot that comes out of a furnace. The biggest issue I think would exist is coordination and putting together long term economic plans which would actually require a lot of work and more bureaucrats.

...if you want me to assess your level of central control and economic coordination as equivalent to the late Roman Empire, I'm happy to work with that for your explanation of what the YRS functions as. But based on your posts, I think you want a much higher level of logistical and political control than that. Which circles back to the initial problem.

3. Convoy protection is what provincial armies are doing most of the time. It's not like every summer there is some campaign. Authorities generally don't know bandits are in an area unless they start robbing people. It is entirely possible for a tribe of bandits to travel the length of China and not be detected by anyone as long as they don't cross a common travel route or go near a border which is being watched. 90% of what a provincial army does is being a deterrent and walking around looking dangerous. The other 10% is massed attacks on bandits in which the Chinese usually outnumber the bandits. The action they deploy for is always defensive in nature because they're getting rid of a force attacking a trade route or trying to sack towns. They probably don't even have pitched battles with bandits that much, the moment a bandit tribe is detected and the Chinese start looking for their camp is the moment they start moving on most likely because fighting isn't profitable.

See, here's our fundamental disconnect: you think that China's enemies are scattered bandit groups who only pose an intermittent threat to isolated portions of the state. That is not, however, the case. China's enemies are existing polities who have social cohesion and political leadership. Just like China, they will be marshalling armies and sending out those armies to endeavor to capture, loot, or seize Chinese territory and goods for their own during campaign seasons. Fundamentally these polities outweigh China heavily in terms of populace - while she might be able to achieve local force superiority by deploying her central armies or grouping together provincial levies from a variety of towns, such consolidations inherently leave regions of China undefended and vulnerable to attack.

If you want to work with the system you've mooted, tell me why China can outweigh, in absolute numbers, agrarian societies with significantly greater command of arable land and total land area. If you can give me a convincing argument for that, I'll accept the premise that China's provincial armies are capable of offering an effective defensive of all of her territories and the trade routes between them.

1. The most common settlements would have between five and ten thousand people. I would have between thirty and forty important cities/towns, a few of which would be large cities or towns.

2. I do not need the degree of control you think I do. A centralized state in the bronze age is a relative term. If the late Roman Empire could have a couple thousand men run an empire of millions I can have a few hundred at most run an empire of 400,000. There is no reason why my state should require some exceptionally large number of bureaucrats or complex system of control.

3. So you are telling me that the state which controls the most fertile and historically populated areas of the country is outnumbered? I hope you mean to imply that I'm being defeated in detail rather than having to fight states which have a million or more people under their control. If you're trying to say that I can't put enough guys in one spot to defend myself from one enemy state without weakening myself somewhere else the best thing to do would be to either temporarily abandon territory until I can retake it with the central government army or simply put everyone in the yellow river valley. The population is supposed to be very sparsely distributed according to you, who has argued that I have less than half a million people total in my state. If that's true how can any state which is working with a more spread out population most likely do what you want them to do?

How is it possible to say that I have less arable land when controlling more land than anyone else around me? Does having more than a hundred guys in a settlement mean they can't farm now? Should having larger towns put on the most fertile land not mean I can cultivate more land of higher quality? The average town doesn't need to be large enough so that walking to a field outside the walls would take a long time.

[Suriyanakhon]

average tribal person according to G-Tech

Based bandits.

[G-Tech Corporation]

average tribal person according to G-Tech

Based bandits.

Truly all bandits are ancaps salivating over the prospect of dismantling such a cringe communist dystopia as the Yellow River State.

[Orostan]

Based bandits.

Truly all bandits are ancaps salivating over the prospect of dismantling such a cringe communist dystopia as the Yellow River State.

You have no right to talk about dystopias, you created the "Empire of Man".

[Melon Heads]

Truly all bandits are ancaps salivating over the prospect of dismantling such a cringe communist dystopia as the Yellow River State.

You have no right to talk about dystopias, you created the "Empire of Man".

I think he might have been being sarcastic mate lol

[Suriyanakhon]

You have no right to talk about dystopias, you created the "Empire of Man".

I think he might have been being sarcastic mate lol

Pretty sure that G never intended for the Imperium of Man to be a utopia, considering it's specifically named after a dystopia, so it falls flat anyway.

It's almost like we're supposed to be creating flawed states lead by flawed people with a load of complexes and psychological damage rather than our own version of Plato's Republic (unless the point is that Plato's Republic would suck).

[G-Tech Corporation]

I think he might have been being sarcastic mate lol

Pretty sure that G never intended for the Imperium of Man to be a utopia, considering it's specifically named after a dystopia, so it falls flat anyway.

It's almost like we're supposed to be creating flawed states lead by flawed people with a load of complexes and psychological damage rather than our own version of Plato's Republic (unless the point is that Plato's Republic would suck).

Personally I try to write real political systems lmao

[Suriyanakhon]

Pretty sure that G never intended for the Imperium of Man to be a utopia, considering it's specifically named after a dystopia, so it falls flat anyway.

It's almost like we're supposed to be creating flawed states lead by flawed people with a load of complexes and psychological damage rather than our own version of Plato's Republic (unless the point is that Plato's Republic would suck).

Personally I try to write real political systems lmao

Have written myself into a corner in regard to that tbqh.

[Melon Heads]

Personally I try to write real political systems lmao

Have written myself into a corner in regard to that tbqh.

Don't have to write intricate political systems with realistic problems if you're still trying to figure out how to read

[G-Tech Corporation]

Personally I try to write real political systems lmao

Have written myself into a corner in regard to that tbqh.

Oh? How do you figure?

[Based Illinois]

Hey yall, what's the IC looking like right now if I may ask?

I'm looking to set down somewhere and want to know what's moving and shaking in the world atm.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Hey yall, what's the IC looking like right now if I may ask?

I'm looking to set down somewhere and want to know what's moving and shaking in the world atm.

Hmm. Hard to summarize. There are a lot of things going on, but that mainly won't effect most places you could drop a character. Any areas you're particularly interested in? That'll help narrow down an abbreviated history.

[Suriyanakhon]

Have written myself into a corner in regard to that tbqh.

Oh? How do you figure?

Hanajima's political system developed too rapidly and is too much like the Heian period (which wasn't really my intention) to be realistic.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Oh? How do you figure?

Hanajima's political system developed too rapidly and is too much like the Heian period (which wasn't really my intention) to be realistic.

True, true. Perhaps the introduction of ironworking could promote regressive forces, and usher in a period of decentralization and a reversion from the political height of Hanajima's current coherent era. After all, the advent of iron armor did, in certain polities, lead to the loss of political cohesion. Tribal entities and kinship groups were more able to compete against mass central armies, because iron armor and weapons actually meant smaller armed groups could meaningfully compete with larger government forces. That could lead to Hanajima's government making concessions to tribes and clans, leading to a more turbulent warlord/feudal era.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Author Application
Name: Rhoam Ackman
Age: 35
Height and Weight: H: 6’11” W: 195lbs
Physical Description: Mostly muscle, averagely smart for this time period, accurate, fast, intimidating, and careful
( Optional ) Picture:

Not a bad start, friend... but there is another 75% to the application

[G-Tech Corporation]

1. The most common settlements would have between five and ten thousand people. I would have between thirty and forty important cities/towns, a few of which would be large cities or towns.

Sounds reasonable - think about this though. Even at the small end, your five thousand person city is consuming, at the very low end, ten million kCal per day. An acre of farmland in the Neolithic, generously, produces about fifth of a bushel of cereal crop. Back of the napkin math, twenty thousand calories. So this village needs to be cultivating, assuming they get only 75% of their calories from crops, nearly three hundred square miles of good growing land to feed themselves.

I'll be conservative here, and assume you've tripled production since arriving. So we only need a hundred square miles, which means, assuming again absolute optimal conditions where every square inch in a circle around the city is perfectly fertile, the furthest fields will be eleven miles ~ 18 km out.

Thus you see my point. A farmer working a field on the periphery needs to walk two or three hours just to arrive at his farmland, unladen and at speed. With tools? With a draft animal? That's a very significant inefficiency.

2. I do not need the degree of control you think I do. A centralized state in the bronze age is a relative term. If the late Roman Empire could have a couple thousand men run an empire of millions I can have a few hundred at most run an empire of 400,000. There is no reason why my state should require some exceptionally large number of bureaucrats or complex system of control.

You say you don't need the degree of control I think you do. My assessment of the Yellow River State is that she is far more logistically ambitious and centralized than any analogous state of the bronze or iron ages. Thus far you've told me precisely nothing that dissuades me of that view, save to compare the YRS to examples which don't track one to one.

3. So you are telling me that the state which controls the most fertile and historically populated areas of the country is outnumbered? I hope you mean to imply that I'm being defeated in detail rather than having to fight states which have a million or more people under their control. If you're trying to say that I can't put enough guys in one spot to defend myself from one enemy state without weakening myself somewhere else the best thing to do would be to either temporarily abandon territory until I can retake it with the central government army or simply put everyone in the yellow river valley. The population is supposed to be very sparsely distributed according to you, who has argued that I have less than half a million people total in my state. If that's true how can any state which is working with a more spread out population most likely do what you want them to do?

Do you really control the most fertile and historically populated areas of the country though? Your stated model of large central cities with no political control beyond sounds exactly like controlling is not what you are doing - your people are only using a small fraction of their rich floodplain.

I'm not insinuating you're fighting a state with a million or more people under their control - but I'm completely happy stating that you're fighting a large panoply of states with a million or more people under their control, across the interior and exterior perimeters of your empire.

How is it possible to say that I have less arable land when controlling more land than anyone else around me? Does having more than a hundred guys in a settlement mean they can't farm now? Should having larger towns put on the most fertile land not mean I can cultivate more land of higher quality? The average town doesn't need to be large enough so that walking to a field outside the walls would take a long time.

I've given you the math above on fertility and arable land; the choice is yours as to how you think your state should evolve to deal with that reality. I'll just note that, as far as I have been able to assess, your last sentence is incorrect.

[Suriyanakhon]

Hanajima's political system developed too rapidly and is too much like the Heian period (which wasn't really my intention) to be realistic.

True, true. Perhaps the introduction of ironworking could promote regressive forces, and usher in a period of decentralization and a reversion from the political height of Hanajima's current coherent era. After all, the advent of iron armor did, in certain polities, lead to the loss of political cohesion. Tribal entities and kinship groups were more able to compete against mass central armies, because iron armor and weapons actually meant smaller armed groups could meaningfully compete with larger government forces. That could lead to Hanajima's government making concessions to tribes and clans, leading to a more turbulent warlord/feudal era.

Perhaps, I did have a plan for some Buddhist and animist holy men destabilizing the government and forcing it to give them positions or allow their armies to exist parallel to the state.

[Melon Heads]

True, true. Perhaps the introduction of ironworking could promote regressive forces, and usher in a period of decentralization and a reversion from the political height of Hanajima's current coherent era. After all, the advent of iron armor did, in certain polities, lead to the loss of political cohesion. Tribal entities and kinship groups were more able to compete against mass central armies, because iron armor and weapons actually meant smaller armed groups could meaningfully compete with larger government forces. That could lead to Hanajima's government making concessions to tribes and clans, leading to a more turbulent warlord/feudal era.

Perhaps, I did have a plan for some Buddhist and animist holy men destabilizing the government and forcing it to give them positions or allow their armies to exist parallel to the state.

Could always have a plague :B

[G-Tech Corporation]

True, true. Perhaps the introduction of ironworking could promote regressive forces, and usher in a period of decentralization and a reversion from the political height of Hanajima's current coherent era. After all, the advent of iron armor did, in certain polities, lead to the loss of political cohesion. Tribal entities and kinship groups were more able to compete against mass central armies, because iron armor and weapons actually meant smaller armed groups could meaningfully compete with larger government forces. That could lead to Hanajima's government making concessions to tribes and clans, leading to a more turbulent warlord/feudal era.

Perhaps, I did have a plan for some Buddhist and animist holy men destabilizing the government and forcing it to give them positions or allow their armies to exist parallel to the state.

Honestly, you might not even have to go that far. The wanton Chinese aggression could easily raise fears of coastal invasions to which the central government would struggle to respond; local entities and clans would likely have strong political support for mobilizing local military formations, militant monasteries and the like, and those could be the point of growth for a feudal system of responsibilities and obligations which your political consensus might prefer over the current centralization.

[Ralnis]

Has Taiwan been colonized?

[Suriyanakhon]

Has Taiwan been colonized?

Not yet, although it's officially part of Hanajima and some exiles have been living there.