1618: Alternative Divergence [AH][OOC-OPEN]

[Tracian Empire]

Just as a question, what is a good sized army for Wurttemberg during this time period? From what I know, the Imperial army never numbered more than 45,000 troops marching together at a time so it would be significantly less than that. Would 15,000 troops make sense for a realm of 415,000?

The Imperial Army did eventually reach a height of 80,000-90,000, but that was relatively later on. Presently the Imperials have around 25,000 men.

So Württemberg could likely follow a similar scenario. 15,000 men would be feasible with a financial effort, Baden-Durlach, which would be your main regional rival, managed to gather around 13,000 by 1622. So presently your army would likely be smaller, 6000 to 8000, but you could take steps in the IC to increase it, particularly since the Catholic League will likely help financially.

[Zapatha]

Just as a question, what is a good sized army for Wurttemberg during this time period? From what I know, the Imperial army never numbered more than 45,000 troops marching together at a time so it would be significantly less than that. Would 15,000 troops make sense for a realm of 415,000?

The Imperial Army did eventually reach a height of 80,000-90,000, but that was relatively later on. Presently the Imperials have around 25,000 men.

So Württemberg could likely follow a similar scenario. 15,000 men would be feasible with a financial effort, Baden-Durlach, which would be your main regional rival, managed to gather around 13,000 by 1622. So presently your army would likely be smaller, 6000 to 8000, but you could take steps in the IC to increase it, particularly since the Catholic League will likely help financially.

Ah okay that makes sense, thanks Thrace.

[Tracian Empire]

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For the people who have reservations in progress, please tell us if you're still interested/still working on your apps. Delays are no issue, but we want to see who is still interested before removing inactive people from the map.

[Ovstylap]

Still going but have a Christmas social function with work tonight and a friend from the capital up tomorrow so still delayed unfortunately, sorry that this week didn't see the Egypt app up yet for reasons aforementioned!

[Tracian Empire]

Still going but have a Christmas social function with work tonight and a friend from the capital up tomorrow so still delayed unfortunately, sorry that this week didn't see the Egypt app up yet for reasons aforementioned!

Yeah, that's alright, don't worry about it

[Ovstylap]

Hello OP, I am sorry to say but I am not going to be joining after all now.

I thank you for your supportiveness in having my reservation for a while, and I think that you've got a fantastic RP going with some great writers. Essentially I have academic deadlines coming up, then I have a bunch of training, before then we head into the holidays and the like, and I wouldn't want to finally get an app out which is very important for your own nation as an adversary, and then be keeping everyone waiting, and I don't want to overextend from my other RPs and thus have to drop out of more. I apologise for any inconvenience that has caused in advancing the Roman Empire narrative.

I hope that this is okay, and perhaps at a less full on time in 2023 I'll be able to join this or another RP of yours as I'm loving the quality of it all!

Cheers,
Ovsti

[Yaruqo]

Working on an application, but likely won't get it done until after Thanksgiving and/or this Friday.

Reservation

Nation Name: The Despotate of Taurica
Territory: Consisting of RL Crimea, Kherson, Mykolayiv, Odessa, Zaporizhzhia, Donetsk, Dnipropetrovsk, and Kirovohrad oblasts in modern day Ukraine
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*Note: Reservations will last for 48 hours. The OP board reserves the right to be subjective in regards to accepting and removing reservations.

[Tracian Empire]

Hello OP, I am sorry to say but I am not going to be joining after all now.

I thank you for your supportiveness in having my reservation for a while, and I think that you've got a fantastic RP going with some great writers. Essentially I have academic deadlines coming up, then I have a bunch of training, before then we head into the holidays and the like, and I wouldn't want to finally get an app out which is very important for your own nation as an adversary, and then be keeping everyone waiting, and I don't want to overextend from my other RPs and thus have to drop out of more. I apologise for any inconvenience that has caused in advancing the Roman Empire narrative.

I hope that this is okay, and perhaps at a less full on time in 2023 I'll be able to join this or another RP of yours as I'm loving the quality of it all!

Cheers,
Ovsti

Don't worry about it, it's understandable, and you'll be more than welcome to return to this roleplay or to join any other future roleplays that we'll be doing in the future.

[Tracian Empire]

Working on an application, but likely won't get it done until after Thanksgiving and/or this Friday.

Reservation

Nation Name: The Despotate of Taurica
Territory: Consisting of RL Crimea, Kherson, Mykolayiv, Odessa, Zaporizhzhia, Donetsk, Dnipropetrovsk, and Kirovohrad oblasts in modern day Ukraine
#AltDiv (Do not delete this, it is used to keep track of the apps)

*Note: Reservations will last for 48 hours. The OP board reserves the right to be subjective in regards to accepting and removing reservations.

Reservation accepted

[Yaruqo]

Full Nation Name: Despotate of Taurica|Δεσποτᾶτον τῆς Ταυρικής
Majority/Official Culture: Roman (Ρωμαϊκή-Romaïkí). Much like their former suzerains, the Taurians base their perception of culture around the concept of Ρωμανότητα-Romanótita (Romanity, or Romanism), as well as a focus on the usage of the true Roman language, the (Ρωμαικα-Romaika|Roman/ Roman language) what some may call “Greek”, the one true Orthodox Christian faith, and obeisance to the royal authority of the δεσπότης-despotes|despot.
Territorial Core: Consisting of RL Crimea, Kherson, Mykolayiv, Odessa, Zaporizhzhia, Donetsk, Dnipropetrovsk, and Kirovohrad oblasts in modern day Ukraine
Territorial Claim: Seeking to expand their dominion for defense and trade, the Taurians seek to push into neighboring territories that hug the Black Sea, while maintaining distance from Constantinople's borders. Plainly, they look to the what is IRL Kyiv, Azov, Rostov, and parts of Circassia
Capital City: Χερσόνησος-Khersónēsos/Χερσών-Kherson
Population: 2.7 million

Government Type: Caesaropapist absolute monarchy with bureaucratic and militaristic elements
Government Ideology/Policies: The Despotate of Taurica maintains many of the same institutions and systems as Constantinople, institutions that it has had since it was formed as a theme centuries ago. They are oriented towards the encouragement of trade, the expansion of their borders, and the defense of their possessions and subjects, as well as their Romanity.
Government Focus: Taurica aims to become a great bastion of the north, both with regards to the construction of defenses and as a beacon of culture and education in an otherwise savage landscape (at least, savage in the eyes of the Taurians).
Head of State: His Majesty, Despotes Sebastokrator Anastasios Dalassenus Komnenos, the Most Fortunate
Head of Government: Prōtomagistros Manuel Tzimiskes
Government Description: Much like the Basileía Rhōmaíōn, the Despotate of Taurica possesses a highly administrative and bureaucratic caesaropapist absolute monarchy, with the Despot holding the supreme authority in both secular and religious matters. The monarchy is embodied in the person of the Despot, which rules the nation as a hereditary despotic autocracy. He is, much like other monarchs that espouse absolutism, anointed by God and Christ, and is considered to be the law animate. All the authority in the state emanates from him. While not as expansive as the civil and military bureaucracies of the Constantinople, the Despotate has done its best to mirror the institutions and structure of the Empire. A smaller Senate, consisting of only the most prominent landowners and appointed members from the ranks of the honestiores, has advisory and consultative powers.

Majority/State Religion: Imperial Roman Church
Religious Description: Roman Orthodoxy, also known as Eastern Orthodoxy. The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church practices what it understands to be the original faith passed down from the Apostles. In Taurica, the Church is governed by the autonomous Archbishop of Khersónēsos and falls within the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, though there is a growing movement among some of Taurica's clergy that desire for an autocephalous patriarchate to be established.

Economic Description: While the economy of the Despotate is advanced, the vast reaches of the steppes also means that the frontier regions are prone to raiding from nomads. The economy of the steppe regions is primarily agricultural, though fortified towns boast some industries. Closer to the heart of Taurica, where raids are nonexistent, one sees more developed economies and industries that make Taurica a hub of Black Sea trade, with Khersónēsos serving as a primary destination for those traders who wish to sell their goods beyond the reaches of the Black Sea. The Despotate state, like its Imperial neighbor, controls trade, maintains a strong monetary system, controls interest rates, and directs the actions of guilds and corporations.
Major Production: Wine, tobacco, fruit, silks and other textiles, honey, grain, traded furs, artisanal goods.


Army Description : The Taurian Army maintains many of the traditions and organization from the Roman Empire, though they have also incorporated units and strategies learned from their wars with nomadic tribes to ensure their legions aren't vulnerable to the volleys of mobile horse archers and light cavalry skirmishers. The Army maintains a smaller theme system to better defend the steppe provinces. Lke the Roman Empire, Taurica generally uses "a combination of musketeers and pikemen, and use a clearly established formation system, with a hierarchical system of units and officers ranging from the regiment-sized tourma(τούρμα) to the ten man kontoubernion(κοντουβερνιον)." The tagmatic forces consist of around 20,000 men, including the royal guards units, while the thematic forces could theoretically, at full mobilization, boast an additional 30,000 men.
Army Weakness : The themes bordering the nomadic hinterlands often face harassment from the tribes that live there, and if resources are not devoted to the improved defense of the borderlands, the themes may not be strong enough to thwart a more organized offensive.
Naval Description : The Taurian Navy is a small, specialized defensive force that focuses on the protection of trade vessels within the Despotate's waters, though they often cooperate with the Roman Navy in the Black Sea to maintain the security of their shared trade routes. They primarily use galleys and galleasses, manned by professional soldiers and sailors, and they make use of naval forts and fortifications, especially those situated along the Kerch Strait.
Naval Weakness : While it is a capable defensive force, its reliance on cooperation with the Romans means that its power projection and offensive capabilities are limited.
Further Military Description : "The armies of the themes (θέματα - thémata) and the forces organized and recruited by the provinces with the same name. The soldiers of each theme are being granted land to work as long as they serve in the military, in order to support and to equip themselves, which gives the Taurian armies a constant supply of peasant-soldiers without the use of conscription. The military organization is not neglected, and the units can mobilize relatively quickly in times of need. Under the authority of the themes, but of a different type are the akrites - (ἀκρίτης), irregular troops formed by soldiers which are granted land next to the Despotate's borders. They act as border guards in times of peace, and as scouts and raiders in times of war. In case of enemy invasion, they try to protect the local population and to harass the attackers until the thematic forces are raised."

"The tagmata (τάγματα) are the standing armies, usually garrisoned around the capital. They are formed by professional and loyal soldiers, and represent the core of the Despotate's forces. They are divided in distinct regiments with traditions, the oldest among them hailing from the martial reforms of the Roman Emperor Alexios the Great, though as Taurica expanded, new regiments have been formed to maintain readiness and a unique Taurian identity. An important part of the tagmata is represented by cavalry forces, including horse archer regiments drawn from former nomadic tribesmen, and they make extensive use of firearms. The are paid regular salaries, and also benefit from an organized auxiliary force which serve as support corps. They are well trained and are held to an extremely high standard, usually recruiting already experienced soldiers from the themes."

National Goals : Fortifying the hinterlands, expanding along the Black Sea coast, modernizing the army, establishing new public works and centers of learning, and improving its status as a legitimate, independent European state.
National Issues : Border raids tend to disrupt most fortification efforts, and Taurica cannot expand if its borders are not secured against nomadic raiders. While the army itself is not resistant to change, the lack of experts in modern warfare means that Taurica will need to recruit foreign specialists. The establishment of public works and centers of learning comes down to money, which might be harder to come by if Taurica prioritizes investments in military reform and border defenses. And as for its status, many European monarchs perceive the Despotate as a vassal of the Roman Empire, despite its independent status. If it can differentiate itself from Constantinople, perhaps it might be the recipient of newfound respect.
National Figures of Interest :

• Strategos Petronas Kamateros - the first strategos of the then-Theme of Cherson
• Doux Michael Dalassenus - the first doux of Taurica
• Despotes Sergios Dalassenus Komnenos - the first despotes of an independent Taurica
• St. Joachim the Confessor - the first Archbishop of Khersónēsos, who was canonized for proselytizing and converting tens of thousands of new Taurians into the embrace of the One True Church.

• Despotes Sebastokrator Anastasios Dalassenus Komnenos
• Prōtomagistros Manuel Tzimiskes
• Archbishop Theophanes
• Megas Domestikos Sergios Toros
• Prince Justinian Dalassenus Komnenos, younger brother of Despot Anastasios
• Princess Anna Dalassenus Komnenos, twin sister of Prince Justinian, younger sister of Despot Anastasios
• Parakoimomenos Akakios Argyris, the close confidant of Despot Anastasios

National Ambition/Aspirations : A sovereign and secure kingdom, perhaps even an empire, that encompasses the northern Black Sea and into the rich fertile lands of the Dnieper and Don river valleys.

History :

• During the reign of Emperor Justinian the Great, Roman rule is re-established over the southern portion of the Taurian peninsula. By the end of the 6th century, the province was reconstituted as the Province of Khersónēsos, which also included Bosporos and the southern coast of Taurica.
• c. 840 - With the expansion of the Province of Khersónēsos' borders to incorporate the peninsula proper, Constantinople appoints Petronas Kamateros as the first strategos, or military governor, of the newly constituted Theme of Khersónēsos.
• By the end of the 10th century, incursions from the Kyivan Rus' threatened the theme. Constantinople fails to prevent the Rus' from sacking Khersónēsos, eventually negotiate a peace with the Rus'. The city quickly recovers, the city's fortifications rebuilt and expanded to the harbor near the start of the 11th century.
• 1084 - 1186 - After proving himself under the command of Alexios the Great, Michael Dalassenus, a merarchēs from a line of military men, was appointed as the first doux of Taurica in 1084. During the height of the Komnenoi period, the Dalassenus family would marry into the Komnenoi, and would serve as loyal administrators and military commanders, repelling Rus' and Cuman raids and expanding the borders of the province beyond the Taurian peninsula, including establishing a foothold on the other side of the Bosporos Strait, a fortress town called Tamatarcha that served as a "sister" of the port town of Bosporos on the opposite side of the Strait.
• 1190 - 1203 - Under the Angeloi dynasty, tensions between Constantinople and Khersónēsos had spiraled rapidly out of control. The Dalassus family, long loyal and devoted to the Komnenoi that they owed their position to, found itself sidelined and the needs of their northernmost territories overlooked, which became clear in 1190 when the Empire failed to assist the Taurians in repelling an invasion from the nearby Cumans, resulting in their loss of Tamatarcha and total control over the Bosporos Strait. In 1191, as the Angeloi emperor and court grappled with the Anarchy, Sergios Dalassenus Komnenos, the ruling doux at the time, heard a rumor that Constantinople was aiming to revoke Taurica from him and, possibly, punish his family for their perceived disloyalty. Doux Sergios raised his flag in rebellion, and pressured the Archbishop Theodoros to anoint and proclaim him a despotes of Taurica. The rebellion lasted for three years, when Emperor Isaac II Angelos, facing Crusader and Bulgarian threats, granted Doux Sergios and his family rule over the despotate in perpetuity, also giving them the right to title themselves as sebastokrator, in exchange for a yearly tribute. This tribute was paid up until the Crusaders invaded in 1203, and the reigning despotes, Isaac Dalassenus Komnenos, ceased paying tribute to Constantinople, formalizing the Taurians' independence from the Empire.
• 1203 - 1260 - Once the independence of Taurica had been established, the Dalassenus Komnenoi regime went to work on expanding their holdings and pushing back against the neighboring Cumans and Rus'. Unable to muster the forces necessary to retake Tamatarcha, the Taurians focused on expanding northward, hoping to assimilate the Cumans into the Despotate and mitigate the threat of raids. The wars bore mixed success, though it wouldn't be for another two centuries when the current borders of Taurica would be established. With the apparent collapse of the Roman Empire at the hands of the Latins, Taurica established trade with the Latin princes and various successor states, remaining neutral in the warring disputes between them.
• 1261 - Despot Manuel Dalassenus Komnenos provides the Palaiologoi two thousand troops in their campaign against the Angeloi in Nikaea, in exchange for a formal end to the tributary status of Taurica.
• 1261 - 1417 - A relatively quiet period in Taurian history, the Taurians maintained peaceful relations with their neighbors, focusing instead on internal investments towards infrastructure, political institutions, economic reforms, and the development of some border fortifications. During the Black Death, Taurica suffered from its point along the Silk Road as the Plague traveled along the trade routes and spread through its port cities. It would take another fifty years for the Despotate to recover from the Plague's societal effects, which had broken down law and order, stability in the countryside, and prompted opportunistic raids from the Mongols. By 1417, Despot Justinian II Dalassenus Komnenos had set his sights on lands controlled by the Golden Horde.
• 1417 - 1430 - By 1417, the Golden Horde had begun to disintegrate under its own weight, with claimants and khanates breaking away and weakening this remnant of the once-great Mongol Empire. Despot Justinian II waged a war that would consume the remainder of his life and reign, fighting to win more territory and consolidate his gains, taking lessons from the Palaiologi Restoration. Once or twice during this Warring Period, the so-called Crimean Khanate managed to push through Taurian defenses and besiege Khersónēsos, though they were never able to seize the city. By 1430, the Khanate had been pushed back to Azov, and a peace treaty was signed between the Khanate and the Despotate. Justinian II would pass away two years later, having successfully expanded his kingdom's borders and, at least for now, ensured its security.
• 1430 - 1618 - Over the next two centuries, the despotate would focus on incorporation, assimilation, and reformation. During this period, the Roman Renaissance would wash onto Taurica's shores. At times weathering raids and attempting to maintain and improve relations with Orthodox and Catholic neighbors, by 1618, Taurica is in a position that can make it a regional powerhouse, a bookmark in history, or be erased entirely. The young Despot Anastasios Dalassenus Komnenos, having assumed power two years ago, hopes that it will be the former under his reign.

RP Sample: 2025 RP as Syria

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[Tracian Empire]

Full Nation Name: Despotate of Taurica|Δεσποτᾶτον τῆς Ταυρικής


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Not realising that the app still isn't ready I took a look at it, and there is a point that I need to mention ahead of time - that of the sections from your app that are lifted directly from mine. I don't mind them directly, particularly since Taurica as a concept is going to be deeply connected to the Roman Empire, but I feel like they are problematic for two main reasons. The first is that people might simply look at your app and consider those sections to be plagiarised, and then there is the issue that these sections don't entirely fit.

Take the government description as an example. While it's likely that the despotate would have a system similar to the court in Constantinople, the Byzantine worldview is that only the Emperor is the Viceroy of Jesus Christ. So if the Taurican monarch is just claiming the title of Despot, they can't be the Viceroy of Jesus Christ, they'd have to claim the imperial title for that. The religious description again similarly doesn't work because it's written from Constantinople's perspective - Taurica would either be an autonomous church under the Ecumenical Patriarchate or be in schism with Constantinople. Or in the military, the tagmata forces of Taurica would likely trace their origins to maybe forces of the Komnenoi army, depending on your history, but likely not as far back as Constantine the Great.

So I think that here it would be the best to remove these sections and to write them yourself so as to ensure that they work for Taurica. App length and detail aren't that much of an issue as long as the app concept is alright, and Taurica is pretty interesting.

[Yaruqo]

Full Nation Name: Despotate of Taurica|Δεσποτᾶτον τῆς Ταυρικής


#AltDiv (Do not delete this, it is used to keep track of the apps)

Not realising that the app still isn't ready I took a look at it, and there is a point that I need to mention ahead of time - that of the sections from your app that are lifted directly from mine. I don't mind them directly, particularly since Taurica as a concept is going to be deeply connected to the Roman Empire, but I feel like they are problematic for two main reasons. The first is that people might simply look at your app and consider those sections to be plagiarised, and then there is the issue that these sections don't entirely fit.

Take the government description as an example. While it's likely that the despotate would have a system similar to the court in Constantinople, the Byzantine worldview is that only the Emperor is the Viceroy of Jesus Christ. So if the Taurican monarch is just claiming the title of Despot, they can't be the Viceroy of Jesus Christ, they'd have to claim the imperial title for that. The religious description again similarly doesn't work because it's written from Constantinople's perspective - Taurica would either be an autonomous church under the Ecumenical Patriarchate or be in schism with Constantinople. Or in the military, the tagmata forces of Taurica would likely trace their origins to maybe forces of the Komnenoi army, depending on your history, but likely not as far back as Constantine the Great.

So I think that here it would be the best to remove these sections and to write them yourself so as to ensure that they work for Taurica. App length and detail aren't that much of an issue as long as the app concept is alright, and Taurica is pretty interesting.

Thank you for the feedback! I'll try to rework those sections per your comments.

[Yaruqo]

Full Nation Name: Despotate of Taurica|Δεσποτᾶτον τῆς Ταυρικής
-snip-

Finally done with the app!

[Tracian Empire]

Full Nation Name: Despotate of Taurica|Δεσποτᾶτον τῆς Ταυρικής


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Accepted

[Tracian Empire]

Torrocca, Catalaonia, Zedeshia, please do let us know if you are still interested in your reservations. If we don't get any answers within the next few days we'll assume that you're no longer interested and we will remove your reservations.

[Alt Div Admin]

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