The Coldest War (Alt-Hist Cold War RP - OOC)

[American Pere Housh]

Well Italy is independent plus the antisemite wing is fairly tiny representing only 5% of the Royalist Party. Support for antisemitism in Italy never got really high in Italy.

Actually the pro-German elements in Italy are higher. I was going to warn that Italy leaving the ECC immediately (as opposed to gradually disengaging from Germany and then leaving the ECC) wasn't going to work out too well for Italy.

Without giving spoiler alert, some of the first events of the RP will be about the response of pro-German elements in Italy.

[Generally speaking, doing something radical at once in this RP will usually lead to some mixed results; gradualism is usually the way to go on foreign policy]

Well its nots immediate.

[Union Princes]

The Middle East would most likely become a hotbed between India and Germany's power struggle in the Islamic world. While India already champions itself as the head representative for the Muslim nations, Germany has superior technology to lend to the nationalist movements.

It would make a cool setting for James Bond films where 007 is caught between Germany's Abwehr and India's R&AW

[Sao Nova Europa]

Actually the pro-German elements in Italy are higher. I was going to warn that Italy leaving the ECC immediately (as opposed to gradually disengaging from Germany and then leaving the ECC) wasn't going to work out too well for Italy.

Without giving spoiler alert, some of the first events of the RP will be about the response of pro-German elements in Italy.

[Generally speaking, doing something radical at once in this RP will usually lead to some mixed results; gradualism is usually the way to go on foreign policy]

Well its nots immediate.

It was the first post in the thread, so it was kinda immediate. As I said, a subtler approach would have been better for Italy. Instead of leaving EEC immediately and distancing outright from Germany, Italy could have used its influence to block further EEC integration and could gradually build up influence in neighboring countries and gradually disengage from Germany.

But no worries. Even if this path causes more trouble for Italy, it also opens up new possibilities and will make your play as Italy more interesting.

[American Pere Housh]

Very nice app, Norv. Before I begin work on my Free France app, do you have anything in particular you feel is relevant on the American side? (Such as particular pressure for reform, investments, support, etc.) Free France is a mess of colonies held from Algiers, so I'm inclined to think America has been crucial for keeping it together.

The U.S. would probably be very interested in rubber, minerals, bananas, coffee, and other raw materials produced by Free France. That might well be good for both sides, since the presence of American companies is likely to be one of the only engines of economic growth for the sub-Saharan French colonies. But it does mean that U.S. business interests are probably quite influential. Beyond that, the U.S. is distinctly focused on the threat from Berlin, and so it is unlikely to demand reform simply for ideological reasons; however unappetizing this minority-rule regime might be, it's better to have it on Washington's side than on the Reich's. To the extent that the U.S. encourages reforms, it would be only those reforms necessary for the internal stability of the Free French regime; the Americans want De Gaulle to be flexible enough to avoid a popular uprising, basically.

And as a front line against fascism, Free France can expect a mountain of U.S. support: it can turn to the U.S. Treasury to subsidize a big part of its national budget, to the War Department to arm and train its troops, to American factories to supply military aircraft and (some) warships, and to U.S. universities and companies to provide expertise and advice. Algiers is probably the headquarters for the Navy's Mediterranean Squadron, and holding onto it is a crucial geostrategic imperative for Washington. America will back De Gaulle to the hilt; Free France is the first domino in Africa, and the U.S. will go to great lengths to ensure it does not topple, lest the whole continent follow.

While the King is silent right now, he secretly has some pro American sympathies. Do you think my ambassador could talk with the U.S. President about economic assistance?

[American Pere Housh]

Well its nots immediate.

It was the first post in the thread, so it was kinda immediate. As I said, a subtler approach would have been better for Italy. Instead of leaving EEC immediately and distancing outright from Germany, Italy could have used its influence to block further EEC integration and could gradually build up influence in neighboring countries and gradually disengage from Germany.

But no worries. Even if this path causes more trouble for Italy, it also opens up new possibilities and will make your play as Italy more interesting.

Well Italy can still influence its neighbors plus I believe its time to establish my own faction.

[American Pere Housh]

The Middle East would most likely become a hotbed between India and Germany's power struggle in the Islamic world. While India already champions itself as the head representative for the Muslim nations, Germany has superior technology to lend to the nationalist movements.

It would make a cool setting for James Bond films where 007 is caught between Germany's Abwehr and India's R&AW

You seem to forget that I also have influence in the region.

[Sao Nova Europa]

Just a warning: Italy accepting economic assistance from US, openly, will lead to a German invasion. And while a German invasion may be more protracted if Italy manages to lead a successful defense and uses its naval prowess in the Mediterranean, it will still lead to a German victory, albeit a costly one in this worst care scenario (for Germany). It will be like the Soviet invasion of Hungary in RL, albeit more bloody. As I've said, Italy due to its geographical and geopolitical position cannot outright become hostile to Germany. Not immediately at least.

Just stating so that there is no misunderstanding.

[South Americanastan]

Just a warning: Italy accepting economic assistance from US, openly, will lead to a German invasion. And while a German invasion may be more protracted if Italy manages to lead a successful defense and uses its naval prowess in the Mediterranean, it will still lead to a German victory, albeit a costly one in this worst care scenario (for Germany). It will be like the Soviet invasion of Hungary in RL, albeit more bloody. As I've said, Italy due to its geographical and geopolitical position cannot outright become hostile to Germany. Not immediately at least.

Just stating so that there is no misunderstanding.

"Italy"

"Naval Prowess"

Those are two words I never though I'd hear in the same sentence.

[Union Princes]

Pere, you have bigger things to worry about than the Middle East now that you have Germany's full attention. You have rushed things way too quickly without proper buildup to ensure a more peaceful separation from the German sphere

[Sao Nova Europa]

Just a warning: Italy accepting economic assistance from US, openly, will lead to a German invasion. And while a German invasion may be more protracted if Italy manages to lead a successful defense and uses its naval prowess in the Mediterranean, it will still lead to a German victory, albeit a costly one in this worst care scenario (for Germany). It will be like the Soviet invasion of Hungary in RL, albeit more bloody. As I've said, Italy due to its geographical and geopolitical position cannot outright become hostile to Germany. Not immediately at least.

Just stating so that there is no misunderstanding.

"Italy"

"Naval Prowess"

Those are two words I never though I'd hear in the same sentence.

lol

To be fair, with the British defeat in WWII, they are kinda the major naval power in the Mediterranean.

But yes, Italy cannot outright become hostile to Germany. What I've suggested is that Italy uses subtler means to undermine German rule; use its influence in the EEC to block further integration, enhance economic and political ties with neighbors, build up its industry (and economy in general), maybe even in the future acquire the atomic bomb.

Just to be clear, I am not trying to prevent Pere from challenging Germany. If anything, I believe it is realistic that they want to challenge Germany. But rushing it and pretending Italy is currently on match with Germany will prove a disaster. A longer, subtler approach will be best.

[Monsone]

"Italy"

"Naval Prowess"

Those are two words I never though I'd hear in the same sentence.

It's pretty ironic considering Italy's RL performance during WW2, but the most competent Italian military branch prior to and during WW2 was the Regia Marina. Most of the Regia Marina's problems stemmed from Italy's industrial limitations and underfunding, not a lack of competence or strength.

[American Pere Housh]

"Italy"

"Naval Prowess"

Those are two words I never though I'd hear in the same sentence.

lol

To be fair, with the British defeat in WWII, they are kinda the major naval power in the Mediterranean.

But yes, Italy cannot outright become hostile to Germany. What I've suggested is that Italy uses subtler means to undermine German rule; use its influence in the EEC to block further integration, enhance economic and political ties with neighbors, build up its industry (and economy in general), maybe even in the future acquire the atomic bomb.

Just to be clear, I am not trying to prevent Pere from challenging Germany. If anything, I believe it is realistic that they want to challenge Germany. But rushing it and pretending Italy is currently on match with Germany will prove a disaster. A longer, subtler approach will be best.

Don't worry as I plan to purge the Royalist Party of any remaining fascists left Soviet style. The only way for Italy to rejoin the EEC is for them to remain fully independent both economically and politically.

[Sao Nova Europa]

Fascists still have a lot of influence. Just because Mussolini died, it does not mean that everyone in Italy somehow suddenly became liberal or renounced fascism, especially since Fascism in this TL has proven to be a successful ideology (with the Fascists winning WWII). Attempting a purge of fascists will lead probably to a coup (and that is only the domestic front; Germany may choose to invade if it believes Italy has gone rogue).

As I've said, doing suddenly radical things without proper preparation will backfire. That kind of playstyle is better suited if you are a Russian Warlord state, because Russia is in chaos. But doing this as a great power will backfire.

[Union Princes]

I don't think thats what the OP had in mind when he said subtle ways to distance from Germany. The King's support comes from the Fascists who are using him to legitimize their rule

[American Pere Housh]

Fascists still have a lot of influence. Just because Mussolini died, it does not mean that everyone in Italy somehow suddenly became liberal or renounced fascism, especially since Fascism in this TL has proven to be a successful ideology (with the Fascists winning WWII). Attempting a purge of fascists will lead probably to a coup (and that is only the domestic front; Germany may choose to invade if it believes Italy has gone rogue).

As I've said, doing suddenly radical things without proper preparation will backfire. That kind of playstyle is better suited if you are a Russian Warlord state, because Russia is in chaos. But doing this as a great power will backfire.

I guess I will begin a military build up plus deal with pesky little rebels on Crete.

[Sao Nova Europa]

I don't think thats what the OP had in mind when he said subtle ways to distance from Germany. The King's support comes from the Fascists who are using him to legitimize their rule

Yes. That's like the UK leaving NATO and accepting Soviet assistance at the height of the Cold War while at the same time taking measures against conservatives. While technically it could happen, if it did it would backfire spectacularly.

[Union Princes]

Its not that it will backfire, it's completely unthinkable. But now that the King has revealed his true intentions, he'll be put on a tighter leash from here on out

[American Pere Housh]

I don't think thats what the OP had in mind when he said subtle ways to distance from Germany. The King's support comes from the Fascists who are using him to legitimize their rule

Yes. That's like the UK leaving NATO and accepting Soviet assistance at the height of the Cold War while at the same time taking measures against conservatives. While technically it could happen, if it did it would backfire spectacularly.

The EEC wasn't a military alliance so I don't see why they panicky unless they are afraid of Italy going on its own path economically and politically.

[American Pere Housh]

Its not that it will backfire, it's completely unthinkable. But now that the King has revealed his true intentions, he'll be put on a tighter leash from here on out

I am essentially Yugoslavia in this AU setting up my own brand of fascism.

[Sao Nova Europa]

Yes. That's like the UK leaving NATO and accepting Soviet assistance at the height of the Cold War while at the same time taking measures against conservatives. While technically it could happen, if it did it would backfire spectacularly.

The EEC wasn't a military alliance so I don't see why they panicky unless they are afraid of Italy going on its own path economically and politically.

The EEC is not formally a military alliance, but it represents Germany's Sphere of Influence. A nation that is in Germany's SoI going rogue, purging fascists, openly confronting Germany and seeking greater ties with Germany's archenemy (the US) is bound to cause a reaction. Italy can make move of its own, and I've stated them: expand influence in Middle East, expand economic and political ties with other European nations, build up industry and military, even develop an atomic bomb in the future. But it cannot suddenly become a liberal, pro-US country and expect no repercussions.

As I've said, attempting to do this without preparation will lead to a coup, invasion or both.

[Union Princes]

I am essentially Yugoslavia in this AU setting up my own brand of fascism.

Well unlike Yugoslavia, Germany is your immediate northern neighbor with a warmonger as its head of state. Do you really not understand how untenable the situation you have put yourself in? Germany is panicking because you are rushing in with your Anti German stance. You did
this without spending any effort building up support from within your country nor found allies in Europe.

[Sao Nova Europa]

Well unlike Yugoslavia, Germany is your immediate northern neighbor with a warmonger as its head of state. Do you really not understand how untenable the situation you have put yourself in? Germany is panicking because you are rushing in with your Anti German stance. You did
this without spending any effort building up support from within your country nor found allies in Europe.

This.

Anyway, this discussion does not lead anywhere and I do not think that spamming the thread with arguments makes it friendly to users. So this conversation should be over.

As for Italy, it has been warned. Italy right now should focus on reassuring Germany it has not gone rogue. If Italy enters immediately in direct conflict with Germany or attempts to purge fascists outright without subtler efforts and long term preparation, there will be an event coup that will topple the King and install a new fascist ruler.

[BTW, I would do the same if the Canadian player suddenly decided to become fascist and become a German ally, to use an example. This is a general rule, not one that applies to Italy only; sudden radical departure from established foreign and domestic policy will lead to mixed results at best and disaster at worse]

[American Pere Housh]

Well unlike Yugoslavia, Germany is your immediate northern neighbor with a warmonger as its head of state. Do you really not understand how untenable the situation you have put yourself in? Germany is panicking because you are rushing in with your Anti German stance. You did
this without spending any effort building up support from within your country nor found allies in Europe.

This.

Anyway, this discussion does not lead anywhere and I do not think that spamming the thread with arguments makes it friendly to users. So this conversation should be over.

As for Italy, it has been warned. Italy right now should focus on reassuring Germany it has not gone rogue. If Italy enters immediately in direct conflict with Germany or attempts to purge fascists outright without subtler efforts and long term preparation, there will be an event coup that will topple the King and install a new fascist ruler.

[BTW, I would do the same if the Canadian player suddenly decided to become fascist and become a German ally, to use an example. This is a general rule, not one that applies to Italy only; sudden radical departure from established foreign and domestic policy will lead to mixed results at best and disaster at worse]

Well if Germany turns out to be the ones behind the terrorist attack in Milan and the attempted coup of one of my puppets then I could use that to my advantage.

[American Pere Housh]

I am essentially Yugoslavia in this AU setting up my own brand of fascism.

Well unlike Yugoslavia, Germany is your immediate northern neighbor with a warmonger as its head of state. Do you really not understand how untenable the situation you have put yourself in? Germany is panicking because you are rushing in with your Anti German stance. You did
this without spending any effort building up support from within your country nor found allies in Europe.

I never said anything that was Anti German.

[Reverend Norv]

Partner, I don't think you are listening.

If Italy enters immediately in direct conflict with Germany or attempts to purge fascists outright without subtler efforts and long term preparation, there will be an event coup that will topple the King and install a new fascist ruler.

The OP just told you what will happen if you don't change course. I would suggest changing course. That's how these games work.