New Civilizations [OOC | Always Open]

[G-Tech Corporation]

In what way is it idiotic to note that a citizen's militia is at a disadvantage when it comes to holding back state armies? I certainly don't buy that the militia will never have been engaged, if that is your premise.

Do the opposing Chinese states have standing armies or something? Just thinking as to how some of the most famed (here in the West at least) bronze / iron age armies (specifically the Greeks) were essentially militiamen who "trained" like, once a year at public games. Plato wrote a dialog about the two perfectly reasonable points of view that soldiers should be trained in using their weapons and they shouldn't, lol. That said, I don't know if the Chinese cities have the wonderful phalanx and cultural outlook to shore up and equip a bunch of 14-50 year old random citizens every battle.

I doubt they are standing armies as a rule of thumb - though there may be some of those, developed in response to Chinese expansion and mimicking the YRS. Mainly they'll just be warrior cadres from the surrounding tribal polities, armed with whatever weapons and armor they were bribed with or have managed to pull together themselves. I don't see them as vastly superior to a well drilled Chinese militia, but there's the old adage about a well-fed barbarian from a state which hasn't seen warfare to kill off their best and strongest being able to fight a Roman legionnaire on equal footing - and I don't think we're comparing the Chinese provincial militia to Roman professionals.

[Ralnis]

Would the Xianyun have compound bows?

[Suriyanakhon]

Capiscum annuum, like all capiscum, is native to North America. Trains in 2960 BCE, fine, but anachronistic cultivars are where I draw the line.

Really we should have some Japanese fishermen being carried over to North America sometime soon, then returning via the Bering Sea. That would be a fun narrative.

Did have a plan for that at one point but the North American player vanished. Would've been funny reading about Grace's old pal Susam having to deal with California.

[The Hierophancy]

Would the Xianyun have compound bows?

I think a laminated bow would be more likely

[Ralnis]

Would the Xianyun have compound bows?

I think a laminated bow would be more likely

Not good enough, time to genocide the charioteers. I'm joining China to help Aaron.

[Orostan]

1) IT DOES. I said this multiple times already!

With armies that are combat ready which can actually stop enemy incursions? You certainly haven't said that.

2) Larger settlements have better walls. Luoyang has a big ass stone wall and a city half its size will rely on bricks and rammed earth and a small town might just have some wood wall. What inflicts most casualties on attacking bandits is ranged weapons, and as I said before small towns with wood walls would not exist in regions threatened by lots of bandits.

Constructing a fitted stone wall around an urban center of tens of thousands of people within a decade is almost impossible with Neolithic technology, just letting you know. Even two decades, still basically impossible. Assuming China started building a stone wall the moment Aaron gained a shred of power, she would have had to put a great amount of her resources toward this end, and I certainly haven't seen any signs of that. Ditto for walling up other cities. Plzen did some good numbers on this back when she was the Commonwealth.

3) Okay, whatever. Point is every bandit tribe in a good part of the plains got their shit kicked in and killed before they had the chance to do that type of thing.

Exactly who was doing this 'shit kicking and killing' though - I've noted repeatedly that frankly no army is capable of moving quickly enough to do what you posit, and I've yet to hear how the Chinese armies have managed to exceed this criteria.

4) Fucking idiotic way to criticize me. They don’t have to ever do that.

In what way is it idiotic to note that a citizen's militia is at a disadvantage when it comes to holding back state armies? I certainly don't buy that the militia will never have been engaged, if that is your premise.

5) Because if they did I WOULD HAVE KILLED THEM ALREADY IT HAS BEEN TWO FUCKING YEARS.

You seem very confident that two years is a long time when it comes to Neolithic conflicts - far from it. Indeed, with communications substantially disrupted and China's immense size in play, it might take the better part of those two years for word to even reach the central government that outlying settlements are under attack. Not to mention the time to march an army on foot across a thousand+ kilometers of hostile country

6) Do you think they like long drawn out sieges that attract Chinese armies to them? The best targets are convoys of supplies.

Why would an enemy army engage in a siege against a settlement they can simply overwhelm by force? Like I said - you can breach a wooden gate in minutes. Or burn a palisade in hours.

7) It’s not, read my telegram. I don’t have to do that.

Fine, I'll leave that for Joohan to talk you through in the TG.

8 ) Yes I have in multiple posts. Certainly in more detail than your development of the steam locomotive was by the look of it.

Would you care to point me to it? It is entirely possible I missed it, and if China is significantly contracting her borders to secure her people then much of this discussion is moot.

9) Nonsense. If there are parts of China like that everyone there is dead and only harder targets would be left.

So, large portions of China are depopulated by war. Fair enough. I'd like to see that reflected in your writing.

10) China is already fighting a war of annihilation. Either the bandits get killed or join China. There is no other alternative. I have made it very clear I am not killing literally everyone.

Sounds like a bloody way to fight a war, but that's your affair. You're conscripting soldiers to replace your losses I take it?

1) This is why I describe my experience with you as talking to a brick wall. If I have a provincial army they are obviously going to be able to go around and deal with people coming in to the north China plain, for example. Why do I need to explain this basic shit to you? It’s obvious.

2) Okay, then they’d have brick walls or something else. They’re going to have something better than wood.

3)

IT HAS BEEN TWO YEARS

4) In what way is it not idiotic to insist over and over again that the provincial militia who are doing all work are not doing all the work? The militia are basically police.

5) Why continue to make stupid arguments you would never make against anyone else? Obviously Luoyang isn’t telling literally everyone where to go and what to do. If an army is based in a province it may be put in a town or city where it is likely to be near places that are attacked and could respond quickly.

6) They have to. Those wood wall settlements WOULD NOT EXIST ANYMORE, how many times do I need to say the same shit to you before you stop bothering me about it?

7) good

8 ) I did mention it in several posts but I am having difficulty finding it by the search function. If I can find it when I get on my computer I will link the posts, but even if I didn’t write about it is a natural consequence of war. I have always been doing this and i think I mentioned it in one of my early posts on the war but I can’t find the specific one.

9) I have written about nothing but depopulation in almost every post. My most recent post has a lot of depopulation in it.

10) Yes, however it should be said that as the war goes on the quality of Chinese armies will increase, I lose men much slower than the bandits do.

[Orostan]

I think a laminated bow would be more likely

Not good enough, time to genocide the charioteers. I'm joining China to help Aaron.

based

Would the Xianyun have compound bows?

I think a laminated bow would be more likely

Actually those bows do exist in China and could spread to the Xianyun.

In what way is it idiotic to note that a citizen's militia is at a disadvantage when it comes to holding back state armies? I certainly don't buy that the militia will never have been engaged, if that is your premise.

Do the opposing Chinese states have standing armies or something? Just thinking as to how some of the most famed (here in the West at least) bronze / iron age armies (specifically the Greeks) were essentially militiamen who "trained" like, once a year at public games. Plato wrote a dialog about the two perfectly reasonable points of view that soldiers should be trained in using their weapons and they shouldn't, lol. That said, I don't know if the Chinese cities have the wonderful phalanx and cultural outlook to shore up and equip a bunch of 14-50 year old random citizens every battle.

No, they’re not nearly that organized and this is a genocidal war. If a Chinese city falls all its people could be massacred. Everyone who could be armed would be in the worst situation,

[Suriyanakhon]

If a Chinese city falls all its people could be massacred. Everyone who could be armed would be in the worst situation,

Why? Most of these people are related to each other through extended kinship and don't have a reason to exterminate each other.

[Orostan]

If a Chinese city falls all its people could be massacred. Everyone who could be armed would be in the worst situation,

Why? Most of these people are related to each other through extended kinship and don't have a reason to exterminate each other.

The war is about the distribution of resources, extended family ties stop mattering when wealth is what is being fought over.

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

I have tactically ascertained that the conclusion to this discussion is MIA. Thus I will be conducting a shift of our uh… general combat permanenteres to focus on “daddy doms”, and uh, “God and shit”

[Ralnis]

While China's fighting the world. I'm making the Model Ts of chariots, like wheels that move with horse turns!

[Suriyanakhon]

Dunno if you all read Spengler, but I was thinking about his works and their relation to our Author's creations. In Spengler's Decline of the West, High Cultures are organisms that pass through distinct phases of development and often see the appearance of figures who fill a certain personage (e.g. Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Napoleon Bonaparte fulfill the same role for their respective cultures). It'd be interesting to look at our Civilizations and how they correspond with Spengler's thought.

The Imperium really fits Spengler's concept of Faustian civilization (a culture driven by the need to overcome all limitations) even having the same Gothic culture of Germany that Spengler identified it with. Aaron's takeover of the Yellow River State corresponds to Caesarism, although not in the exact order that Spengler predicted. Hanajima would probably correspond the best with the Apollonian, despite not being Hellenic, exhibiting the same classical spirit.

[Orostan]

Dunno if you all read Spengler, but I was thinking about his works and their relation to our Author's creations. In Spengler's Decline of the West, High Cultures are organisms that pass through distinct phases of development and often see the appearance of figures who fill a certain personage (e.g. Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Napoleon Bonaparte fulfill the same role for their respective cultures). It'd be interesting to look at our Civilizations and how they correspond with Spengler's thought.

The Imperium really fits Spengler's concept of Faustian civilization (a culture driven by the need to overcome all limitations) even having the same Gothic culture of Germany that Spengler identified it with. Aaron's takeover of the Yellow River State corresponds to Caesarism, although not in the exact order that Spengler predicted. Hanajima would probably correspond the best with the Apollonian, despite not being Hellenic, exhibiting the same classical spirit.

Caesar was based and I’m glad I made something that could be compared to what he did, lol.

[Ralnis]

Dunno if you all read Spengler, but I was thinking about his works and their relation to our Author's creations. In Spengler's Decline of the West, High Cultures are organisms that pass through distinct phases of development and often see the appearance of figures who fill a certain personage (e.g. Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Napoleon Bonaparte fulfill the same role for their respective cultures). It'd be interesting to look at our Civilizations and how they correspond with Spengler's thought.

The Imperium really fits Spengler's concept of Faustian civilization (a culture driven by the need to overcome all limitations) even having the same Gothic culture of Germany that Spengler identified it with. Aaron's takeover of the Yellow River State corresponds to Caesarism, although not in the exact order that Spengler predicted. Hanajima would probably correspond the best with the Apollonian, despite not being Hellenic, exhibiting the same classical spirit.

Wonder what the Roving King and Xianyun would be.

[Orostan]

“ The Second Religiousness occurs concurrently with Caesarism, the final political constitution of Late Civilization. Caesarism is the rise of an authoritarian ruler, a new 'emperor' akin to Caesar or Augustus, taking the reins in reaction to a decline in creativity, ideology and energy after a culture has reached its high point and become a civilization.[19] Both the Second Religiousness and Caesarism demonstrate the lack of youthful strength or creativity that the Early Culture once possessed. The Second Religiousness is simply a rehashing of the original religious trend of the Culture.”

If Wikipedia is portraying this guy’s ideas right I disagree with them. Caesar was still good though. I wonder if my state could be called reverse Caesarism - where an ‘authoritarian’ takes power to bring that culture to a high point.

[The Hierophancy]

Dunno if you all read Spengler, but I was thinking about his works and their relation to our Author's creations. In Spengler's Decline of the West, High Cultures are organisms that pass through distinct phases of development and often see the appearance of figures who fill a certain personage (e.g. Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Napoleon Bonaparte fulfill the same role for their respective cultures). It'd be interesting to look at our Civilizations and how they correspond with Spengler's thought.

The Imperium really fits Spengler's concept of Faustian civilization (a culture driven by the need to overcome all limitations) even having the same Gothic culture of Germany that Spengler identified it with. Aaron's takeover of the Yellow River State corresponds to Caesarism, although not in the exact order that Spengler predicted. Hanajima would probably correspond the best with the Apollonian, despite not being Hellenic, exhibiting the same classical spirit.

Spengler? More like... cringler.... cringeler... I'm pretty sure Caesarism isn't a type of civilization as Apollonian, Magian, Faustian etc. are, though. YRS seems like it would also be considered Faustian, if youre into that baloney smh

[Ralnis]

I think once I invaded Yi Yin I'll become Aaron's vassal and sell my Highway Stars to Chinese folk. Be a Communist Ford.

[Suriyanakhon]

Posted, the imperial commander in Silla is slowly branching her forces out and building fortifications in the event of war with the Shen, as well as extending an Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact olive branch to them.

[G-Tech Corporation]

1) This is why I describe my experience with you as talking to a brick wall. If I have a provincial army they are obviously going to be able to go around and deal with people coming in to the north China plain, for example. Why do I need to explain this basic shit to you? It’s obvious.

Honestly I'm really skeptical of these provincial armies being able to deal with anyone, though perhaps that is a discussion for another time. Even if we assume China is capable of arming and armoring one able bodied man in every six, which her professional armies represent, these provincial armies would beggar the state's resources and be filled out with odds and sods even with extensive conscription. Nothing you've said has changed the calculus which sees China's cities lacking enough defense to turn back their foes.

2) Okay, then they’d have brick walls or something else. They’re going to have something better than wood.

Again, are they though? Consider a city with, say, a population density of a thousand people to a square mile - you need a defensive wall with a total area of ten square miles for ten thousand people, say five miles by two at perimeter for ease of calculation. Fourteen miles of brick wall. Let's make this a small brick wall - seven feet tall, filled with rubble to a depth of four feet, faced with a layer of seven-deep bricks on both sides and her surface being packed earth to cut down on labor. Call our brick 9 x 4 x 3 inches, so 28 bricks in height, 196 bricks per brick-length of wall facing, 392 bricks from both sides. That's what we need for nine inches of all. How many inches in fourteen miles?

Easy math! A mile has 5280 feet, or 63360 inches, or 7040 brick-lengths. Multiply that by 14 for the entire perimeter, call it 100,000 brick lengths, each of which composes ~400 bricks. Roundabouts forty million bricks to make this wall. Around one city. A short wall, easy to breach or climb over with minimal effort.

Does China produce forty million bricks? Does China spend her manpower laying forty million bricks? Static defenses are time-consuming to build, fearsomely expensive, and not at all something I can see China investing in before the start of this conflict - she was, after all, queen of all she surveyed and constantly expanding with her ever-victorious armies.

3)
IT HAS BEEN TWO YEARS

And I've quoted you a very generous rate of campaign for those two years. Convince me why it should be more generous. Give me numbers of miles you think your soldiers can march every month while fighting battles, exterminating villages, and through broken terrain.

4) In what way is it not idiotic to insist over and over again that the provincial militia who are doing all work are not doing all the work? The militia are basically police.

So which is it? Are the provincial militia armies holding back the 'bandits' by themselves, or are they basically police? Just clarify for me so we have a common reference base.

5) Why continue to make stupid arguments you would never make against anyone else? Obviously Luoyang isn’t telling literally everyone where to go and what to do. If an army is based in a province it may be put in a town or city where it is likely to be near places that are attacked and could respond quickly.

Isn't it? I thought China had a central government, with all important functions run from Luoyang. That aside - if you've delegated power to the generals, that'll cut down your response time, sure. Two months to respond is better than a year, aye, but not very helpful if the city was burnt down in the third week.

6) They have to. Those wood wall settlements WOULD NOT EXIST ANYMORE, how many times do I need to say the same shit to you before you stop bothering me about it?

Cool, cool. Now that we've gotten past that, how many of China's sixty cities were these wooden walled settlements? Presumably the south?

8 ) I did mention it in several posts but I am having difficulty finding it by the search function. If I can find it when I get on my computer I will link the posts, but even if I didn’t write about it is a natural consequence of war. I have always been doing this and i think I mentioned it in one of my early posts on the war but I can’t find the specific one.

Well, if you find it, do let me know. If you want to put together numbers for where the populations have been withdrawn to, what cities have been abandoned as strategically untenable, that'll be a good step towards Aaron's action's reflecting his military necessities.

10) Yes, however it should be said that as the war goes on the quality of Chinese armies will increase, I lose men much slower than the bandits do.

Well, yes and no. China's men may learn how to fight better, but expanding her armies to the amount of men you are means you are going to be taking in less than optimal recruits, men with defects you wouldn't put in armor otherwise, soldiers with less than optimal heights, old injuries, all that jazz. I'd say it is more of a tossup of whether China's army grows stronger, man for man, but that's really hard to predict either way.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Dunno if you all read Spengler, but I was thinking about his works and their relation to our Author's creations. In Spengler's Decline of the West, High Cultures are organisms that pass through distinct phases of development and often see the appearance of figures who fill a certain personage (e.g. Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Napoleon Bonaparte fulfill the same role for their respective cultures). It'd be interesting to look at our Civilizations and how they correspond with Spengler's thought.

The Imperium really fits Spengler's concept of Faustian civilization (a culture driven by the need to overcome all limitations) even having the same Gothic culture of Germany that Spengler identified it with. Aaron's takeover of the Yellow River State corresponds to Caesarism, although not in the exact order that Spengler predicted. Hanajima would probably correspond the best with the Apollonian, despite not being Hellenic, exhibiting the same classical spirit.

Personally I subscribe to the theory of hierarchical agrarian society as being inherently Faustian, making the bargain as it does for things greater than simple pleasures and necessities in exchange for suffering. But that's a higher level discussion than New Civs is really built for

[Joohan]

G and Oro, cease debate

[Joohan]

Dunno if you all read Spengler, but I was thinking about his works and their relation to our Author's creations. In Spengler's Decline of the West, High Cultures are organisms that pass through distinct phases of development and often see the appearance of figures who fill a certain personage (e.g. Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Napoleon Bonaparte fulfill the same role for their respective cultures). It'd be interesting to look at our Civilizations and how they correspond with Spengler's thought.

The Imperium really fits Spengler's concept of Faustian civilization (a culture driven by the need to overcome all limitations) even having the same Gothic culture of Germany that Spengler identified it with. Aaron's takeover of the Yellow River State corresponds to Caesarism, although not in the exact order that Spengler predicted. Hanajima would probably correspond the best with the Apollonian, despite not being Hellenic, exhibiting the same classical spirit.

I tried reading Spengler, but he suffers from the same disease as Evola - the big boring. I get what he says is important and interesting, but could you use smaller words and less asinine sentence structures please?

[Joohan]

Spengler? More like... cringler.... cringeler... I'm pretty sure Caesarism isn't a type of civilization as Apollonian, Magian, Faustian etc. are, though. YRS seems like it would also be considered Faustian, if youre into that baloney smh

Apollonian I get, it's head up assery. Faustian I get too, it's decorative militarism. Caesarism I can guess as being akin to a plutocracy for the one, or a state who has risen to satiate an individual.

What on earth would Magian be? Im getting Jew vibes, but go ahead

[G-Tech Corporation]

I tried reading Spengler, but he suffers from the same disease as Evola - the big boring. I get what he says is important and interesting, but could you use smaller words and less asinine sentence structures please?

Said every modern reader of a pre-1930s historical treatise ever!

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

Spengler? More like... cringler.... cringeler... I'm pretty sure Caesarism isn't a type of civilization as Apollonian, Magian, Faustian etc. are, though. YRS seems like it would also be considered Faustian, if youre into that baloney smh

Apollonian I get, it's head up assery. Faustian I get too, it's decorative militarism. Caesarism I can guess as being akin to a plutocracy for the one, or a state who has risen to satiate an individual.

What on earth would Magian be? Im getting Jew vibes, but go ahead

Wait- so Olivia is Jewish now?