New Civilizations [OOC | Always Open]

[Joohan]

Author Applicaiton
Name: Jonas Smith
Age: 20
Height and Weight: 5' 5"
Skin, hair, and eye description: Tan skin, very dark brown hair, brown eyes
( Optional ) Picture: Not doing one

Prior Profession: Wrote up Wendy's roasts (and also worked at Wendy's as a cook)
Level of education ( specify degrees or note worthy classes ): Is in the middle of college and is trying to get a major in Physics
Physique description: Average physical health and strength
Useful skills: Has a good sense of direction, can map things easily

National Origin: New Zealand
What were you doing prior to falling asleep and awakening in the past?: In the middle of writing an essay for Physics on the subject of the possibility of being able to split quarks
Description of personality: Seclusive, not the most talkative of people, but with close friends, many interesting discussions can and will take place
Where in the world are you landing?: The Peloponnese Peninsula of Greece

Autobiography/Biography ( paragraph minimum ): Jonas was born in Auckland, New Zealand. His father was killed when he was 3, leaving him and his mother by themselves. They were able to survive until Jonas was old enough to get a job at Wendy's. Throughout his school years before getting a job, he was the "weird" kid at school. He never got along with anybody. He would constantly get into fights, but wouldn't share what happened.

His mother started getting worried about him and requested to his teachers in 6th grade whether he could have classes by himself to help him focus. The teachers agreed, and Jonas was given special classes by himself to keep him from getting into fights. He would be given special assignments and quickly became one of the smartest students in 6th grade. He was able to skip 7th grade and got into 8th grade quickly. When he got into college, he easily got into AP classes, and it gave him enough of a challenge that he wouldn't get bored in class.

Just after graduating from high school, he got a job at Wendy's as a cashier. He was promoted after a few months after showing his time management skills. He became a cook and raised the reviews through the roof. He made enough money that with him working a part-time job and his mom working a full-time job as a programmer that they were able to get a better house and living qualities. Jonas continued with school until now, when the story takes place.

Writing Sample: It was midnight and I was running through the woods. I wasn't sure what was chasing me or what they were going to do to me, but I knew that it wouldn't be good. By the way, my name is Janora Francis, but everybody calls me Jan. I'm 14 years old and I'm a runaway. Who I'm running from and why don't matter. All you need to know is that I'm terrified.

I'd been running for 3 days straight. I was wearing a backpack with food, water, and supplies. That's probably why my pursuer was able to stay on my trail, even though I'd been twisting and turning, zigging and zagging. I wasn't sure how much longer I could go, but it wouldn't be long until I had to stop. Suddenly, I ran out of breath. I couldn't go any farther. I was sure I would be caught. But, my pursuer stopped near me, looked around, and left.


( Optional on down)
What are your intentions for this RP, what's the long term goal?:
What people or places are you taking inspiration from?: Ancient Greek city-states, as well as a Japanese-inspired building structure
Why did you chose to land where you did?: The Mediterranean provides a useful amount of resources.
What vibe should we get from your civilization and it's culture?: Formal and peaceful
What are your character's motivations?: Just wanting to survive, hopefully get back to his mom somehow
Theme Song?: Immortals by Fall Out Boy; You Will Be Found by Dear Evan Hansen Cast
What do you wanna see in this RP? What would make it better?:

Accepted!

Be aware that a civilization does exist currently in that part of Greece: The Nestos League

It was an author made civilization, highly favoring a scholarly class. During it's time, it fostered numerous niche inventions, taking ample inspiration from Mesopotamians and Egyptians. Following the red death and a brief conflict with the Imperium however, a great cultural and political schism has occured among many within the ruling scholar class - with splits largely occurring along religious lines.

[Ralnis]

This is starting to feel more like a HOI4 game than NC tbh.

Have you not been not been min-maxing your divisions for the new meta?

I think China will be having a chariot meta soon.

[Joohan]

Have you not been not been min-maxing your divisions for the new meta?

I think China will be having a chariot meta soon.

Would chariots be considered Cav or Mechanized?

[Ralnis]

I think China will be having a chariot meta soon.

Would chariots be considered Cav or Mechanized?

Cav-hybrid. Xianyun Chariots are a unique unit tree that has mechanized types.

[Endem]

I think China will be having a chariot meta soon.

Would chariots be considered Cav or Mechanized?

Motorized I think.

[Orostan]

I would be in a better writing mood if I didn’t feel like I was talking to a brick wall sometimes.

The brick wall is there because you consistently push the upper bounds of what Joohan and I consider a reasonable rate of progress for your civilization, then complain if pushback doesn't come immediately because you've already moved on to the next thing and thus consider your last wildly unreasonable post a fait accompli. The brick wall will persist as long as it is necessary to ride herd on you to prevent this outcome.

In the past you have approved actions and then rescinded your approval of them at a much later time, this is why I have tried to telegram you more about technological innovations I make. Credit to you - the rules have become much more consistent.

1) They already have ten thousand men - it's been two years. Their numbers have built to all that is needed. I don't think protecting my stuff will prolong the conflict, if anything it will shorten it as bandits are forced to get into larger and larger groups to steal shit - and those large groups can be defeated by a Chinese army.

Yes, as we agreed, at the end of two years of upscaling China's army will be approaching her ten thousand man size. I certainly don't agree that that is 'all that is needed', or that defensive measures will enable China to pacify swathes of restive territory. Even with ten thousand men, say, if they are divided into battalions of five hundred soldiers each - China has far more points that need defense than she has armies capable of defending them. The last figure I heard from you was sixty cities, and that's not even getting into the economically valuable points in China which lay beyond her cities, or the trade between them.

Protect twenty cities with China's armies and deploy no soldiers in an offensive campaign - what happens to the unprotected cities and trade/communication/logistics between the cities?

2) I do not need a guard every ten feet along a road, I need enough people protecting convoys so it is prohibitively expensive to attack them. Cities have walls and the bandits have no siege equipment, it is not possible for the bandits to successfully attack an important city. Only towns or small cities with no big stone wall or less fortifications could be attacked and that's where most of the bandits would be.

Every city is walled in China? To the degree that it can withstand assault by force? In the ~6 years or less China has protected these cities? I find that very hard to believe, especially as China's population has been ballooning. I'm also skeptical of your opposing polities possessing no siege equipment. A battering ram, a siege ladder - these things we see from the very earliest points of human history, and require essentially no industrial base to produce.

3) I have explained my reasoning multiple times. 50% of the bandits were defeated already and those were the 50% in the closest contact and proximity with Chinese settlements. Convoys are well protected and there has been a campaign of genocide aimed at the bandits unlike anything else in the world at this point.

50% of the 'bandits' by numbers, sure. That says nothing about the states that support them, and the regrouped forces they can field. Even if China instantly knew which states those defeated armies came from, and immediately began marching her armies to every state which had been weakened for a time due to their losses, she wouldn't have reached even a fifth of those states within the first two years. The travel times simply don't support a hypothesis where China has pacified half of her foes in four campaign seasons. You'd be lucky to do that even with modern rail, frankly.

4) No cities are left to fend for themselves like that. Chinese armies are not clearing the country province by province, they are going road by road and city by city. All major cities have had their surroundings cleared out and when bandits move back into that territory they're going to all get killed by the next Chinese army.

How? How are no cities left to fend for themselves? I just don't get your logic. China doesn't have an army for every city, and what armies she does have can't exist everywhere at once in a superposition of states. There is no 'next Chinese army'. Even if the only thing Chinese armies are doing is marching between cities without rest, with zero campaigning in the countryside, China is too large for every city to have even been visited by an army in two years.

China is not fighting an organized insurgency with a central authority. it is fighting tribes of bandits that don't even speak the same language across the country and raid targets of opportunity. They don't want to set up kingdoms, they want easy loot.

Sure, on this point we agree - but you need to realize that they already have their kingdoms, their polities to which they answer. This easy loot is enriching their states and only increasing their desire for continued conflict, since they are getting rich quickly though said conflict.

5) Yes.

See, I just have to hard disagree here. A state at war on 80%+ of her borders isn't going to worry about political reorganization, or introducing new reaping machines, or military adventuring in Korea. Your posts are divorced from China's ongoing difficulties, and I need to see those difficulties reflected in your posts. China overextended herself, allowed corruption to flourish, and is now dealing with the consequences of Aaron's decisions.

6) Because if they don't they get killed to the man and attacking protected convoys full of shit they can't even use doesn't make sense.

Or they can continue looting undefended settlements and making off with valuable goods/slaves/etc. because China doesn't possess even a tenth of the forces needed to defend every point of her logistics system and populace?

7) Okay, then I hope they enjoy being killed off. China has already extended an olive branch to many of these groups and at this point most of them have three choices: 1) get out of china 2) surrender and deal with the Chinese as actually productive parts of their economy or 3) get exterminated.

Or they can... continue looting undefended settlements and making off with valuable goods blah blah blah.

What do you actually want this to look like? Just tell me what you want and get to the point so we can talk about this in terms that actually make sense. What do you think China should look like right now?

I've literally clearly stated this multiple times over the last month. China is not a state with her enemies subdued on every side, fleeing or enslaved or dead, busily engaging in Great Game diplomacy and peaceful innovation. Her armies must be busy actively campaigning against her foes if she ever seeks to achieve peace, and the lion's share of her efforts devoted to that outcome - replacing the casualties of constant warfare, supplying her immense armies with arms and armor, dealing with internal dissent from political detractors, the prestige loss from territory being overrun, likely fighting separatists, dealing with dissatisfaction from shortages in necessary goods, quelling a burgeoning refugee crisis - there are a dozen things China is dealing with.

Or, I suppose, you can just not deal with those problems. But then Aaron will be in a situation where China is shrinking into a vestige of her old self as her less important settlements make their accommodations with local powers to end the open warfare that China isn't protecting them from, and the YRS has lost large amounts of her resources and population to emigration or sacking.

1) Again, you act like china needs to be everywhere at once. It does not. China needs to protect convoys and run some patrols - these are the most taxing parts of China’s defense. You seem to just want me to collapse. There are no unprotected cities or trade routes and the idea that there is is insane. Stop arguing I should essentially just stop playing the game, it’s unrealistic.

2) It does not take six fucking years to build a wood wall and battering rams are new technology basically. Siege ladders can be deployed but again the attacking force will take so many casualties trying to use them that it may be prohibitively expensive to take even medium sized towns.

3) You agreed 50% of them were gone, are you walking that back now? What the fuck does “regrouped” mean?

4) Yes China does have a fucking army for every city, what do you think the provincial armies are made up of? Why do bandits seem to have 100% of their population stealing shit and I can’t get even some guys with spears in a town?

5) How does this change anything? If they have kings or not doesn’t change what they actually are. They are not interested in conquering territory and increased opposition would result in them moving to more remote areas.

6) The 20% that China has secure is the most populous parts of the country and the roads and iron mines that hold it together. I am not fighting concurrently in 80% of my territory, most fighting is small raids and happens at a relatively small and decreasing number of settlements near enemy territory. 100% of the enemy population is not raiding 80% of the country at any given moment.

7) Holy shit how many times do I need to explain I don’t need a guy posted every ten meters to defend a road? Why do you want to cut me down to ten percent of my size so bad? Do you not think the incredible demands you are making are not even just a LITTLE BIT unrealistic and insane?

8 ) Anyone living in a settlement that was “undefended” has already probably been moved into a bigger well defended settlement or somewhere else. Also if the enemy is taking slaves they run into the same problem I have - how do you provide enough guards to stop the slaves from revolting?

9) You want me to stop posting is what you want. I don’t want to have to fight the worst event ever in the RP constantly, I want to PLAY THE FUCKING GAME. Your expectation of what the bandits are doing is unrealistic and unreasonable. They are not inhuman monsters who exist only to pillage. Also, why in god’s name would I have INTERNAL ISSUES? If anything people would want to support their government more because only it stands between them and total obliteration.

Your idea that bandits must be singleminded raiding machines who do nothing but fuck with me is the most unrealistic thing about this. Why do you insist on trying to remove me from the game still? I have tried to reason with you, talk to you about technology and figure out things. I have made efforts to try and cooperate with you on every level but here you have done nothing but insist I should stop playing the game because you claim bandits are literally everywhere and only exist to provide NPC enemies for me to gradually massacre.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

If China’s population is concentrated in large fortified settlements, I’d be fascinated to know how these settlements feed themselves.

The reason chevauchees were so terrifying was because population centres depended on large rural hinterlands to bring in the food needed to sustain its population. The population of this rural hinterland, dispersed into small settlements by the necessity of farming this geographically extensive hinterland, could not be effectively defended against more mobile enemies.

And if there’s one thing hunter-gatherers have over farmers, it’s mobility and operational flexibility. The side doing the raiding, after all, only needs to be there for the raid, but the side trying to guard against raiding needs to be prepared for defence all the time, as they know not at what time the raid will come.

This, among other reasons, is why I was extremely skeptical of the Imperium’s ability to guard its long and exposed frontiers when I was still in this RP, and largely the same arguments also apply to China.

[Joohan]

If China’s population is concentrated in large fortified settlements, I’d be fascinated to know how these settlements feed themselves.

The reason chevauchees were so terrifying was because population centres depended on large rural hinterlands to bring in the food needed to sustain its population. The population of this rural hinterland, dispersed into small settlements by the necessity of farming this geographically extensive hinterland, could not be effectively defended against more mobile enemies.

And if there’s one thing hunter-gatherers have over farmers, it’s mobility and operational flexibility.

This, among other reasons, is why I was extremely skeptical of the Imperium’s ability to guard its long and exposed frontiers when I was still in this RP, and largely the same arguments also apply to China.

Well the Imperium did get invaded from the Balkans during their red death event - and everything east of Serbia is still pretty much ruined and depopulated. They will face similar challenges in the future.

But yes, I do concur, how does China feed itself if it's abandoned the countryside?

[Orostan]

If China’s population is concentrated in large fortified settlements, I’d be fascinated to know how these settlements feed themselves.

The reason chevauchees were so terrifying was because population centres depended on large rural hinterlands to bring in the food needed to sustain its population. The population of this rural hinterland, dispersed into small settlements by the necessity of farming this geographically extensive hinterland, could not be effectively defended against more mobile enemies.

And if there’s one thing hunter-gatherers have over farmers, it’s mobility and operational flexibility.

This, among other reasons, is why I was extremely skeptical of the Imperium’s ability to guard its long and exposed frontiers when I was still in this RP, and largely the same arguments also apply to China.

Well the Imperium did get invaded from the Balkans during their red death event - and everything east of Serbia is still pretty much ruined and depopulated. They will face similar challenges in the future.

But yes, I do concur, how does China feed itself if it's abandoned the countryside?

Cities aren’t these massive places with hundreds of thousands in them yet. They’re small enough so food for the city can be grown in the cleared area around it.

[G-Tech Corporation]

This, among other reasons, is why I was extremely skeptical of the Imperium’s ability to guard its long and exposed frontiers when I was still in this RP, and largely the same arguments also apply to China.

Oh the Imperium would 110% face serious difficulties if in a similar scenario to the Yellow River State. Like the YRS, she predominantly only has authority around what passes for urban centers and the transport corridors between them - hence the infamous goose.

There are measures which have been taken to improve outcomes in such a scenario, like the distributed military system, the organization of the Outriders, the establishment of rail lines, the expansion along waterways, all that jazz. But ultimately there's only so much one can do - outside of hard geographical borders, states without rapid transportation and high population density have a hard time policing their borders intrinsically.

[Orostan]

This, among other reasons, is why I was extremely skeptical of the Imperium’s ability to guard its long and exposed frontiers when I was still in this RP, and largely the same arguments also apply to China.

Oh the Imperium would 110% face serious difficulties if in a similar scenario to the Yellow River State. Like the YRS, she predominantly only has authority around what passes for urban centers and the transport corridors between them - hence the infamous goose.

There are measures which have been taken to improve outcomes in such a scenario, like the distributed military system, the organization of the Outriders, the establishment of rail lines, the expansion along waterways, all that jazz. But ultimately there's only so much one can do - outside of hard geographical borders, states without rapid transportation and high population density have a hard time policing their borders intrinsically.

Do you have actual trains or are you talking about wagonways?

[Joohan]

Oh the Imperium would 110% face serious difficulties if in a similar scenario to the Yellow River State. Like the YRS, she predominantly only has authority around what passes for urban centers and the transport corridors between them - hence the infamous goose.

There are measures which have been taken to improve outcomes in such a scenario, like the distributed military system, the organization of the Outriders, the establishment of rail lines, the expansion along waterways, all that jazz. But ultimately there's only so much one can do - outside of hard geographical borders, states without rapid transportation and high population density have a hard time policing their borders intrinsically.

Do you have actual trains or are you talking about wagonways?

I had that same question actually

[Suriyanakhon]

Also, why in god’s name would I have INTERNAL ISSUES?

What state doesn't have internal issues?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Cities aren’t these massive places with hundreds of thousands in them yet. They’re small enough so food for the city can be grown in the cleared area around it.

Doesn't the YRS' sixty settlements with ~800,000 inhabitants work out to 10,000+ inhabitants per city?

I had that same question actually

There are a few actual trains, aye. I've mentioned them a few times in the past when talking about steam innovations, and how Viktor gets from place to place. Nemtsov was working on a prototype back in 2990 for hauling ore, so we're at the point where some of them are in operation on high volume routes. I've made a dozen or so posts on the topic, though I'm on mobile presently so I'll have to dredge them up later.

[Orostan]

Cities aren’t these massive places with hundreds of thousands in them yet. They’re small enough so food for the city can be grown in the cleared area around it.

Doesn't the YRS' sixty settlements with ~800,000 inhabitants work out to 10,000+ inhabitants per city?

I had that same question actually

There are a few actual trains, aye. I've mentioned them a few times in the past when talking about steam innovations, and how Viktor gets from place to place. Nemtsov was working on a prototype back in 2990 for hauling ore, so we're at the point where some of them are in operation on high volume routes. I've made a dozen or so posts on the topic, though I'm on mobile presently so I'll have to dredge them up later.

1) God I wish. If I had 800000 people I could shit all all over anyone and the bandit problem would stop existing very quickly. I thought I only had 300000 guys to use and would only get close to 800000 near the end of the war after absorbing all the bandits - if I have 800000 that really improves my situation!

Ten thousand guys per settlement is perfectly manageable for agriculture. It’s probably actually a very good size as it would require a very large army to take it but would be small enough so it can focus on agriculture.

2) incredible.

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

I'd say thats sufficiently implied and brushed away to be not crossing the line.

[G-Tech Corporation]

1) Again, you act like china needs to be everywhere at once. It does not. China needs to protect convoys and run some patrols - these are the most taxing parts of China’s defense. You seem to just want me to collapse. There are no unprotected cities or trade routes and the idea that there is is insane. Stop arguing I should essentially just stop playing the game, it’s unrealistic.

I'm still not hearing a 'why' as to the explanation why China doesn't need to defend her settlements against hostile armies?

2) It does not take six fucking years to build a wood wall and battering rams are new technology basically. Siege ladders can be deployed but again the attacking force will take so many casualties trying to use them that it may be prohibitively expensive to take even medium sized towns.

If you're talking about a wooden wall, sure, that's reasonable to erect swiftly. Also not really a great defense for outnumbered and panicky militiamen when facing an enemy army - you can batter down a wooden gate in a matter of minutes using literally a lopped tree trunk. If I were a 'bandit' king and found a city defended only by a militia and a humble wooden palisade I would be perfectly happy to assault such a town.

3) You agreed 50% of them were gone, are you walking that back now? What the fuck does “regrouped” mean?

I agreed that fifty percent of them were defeated in that battle - that hardly means you killed and captured fifty percent of China's enemies. Barring a Cannae-like double envelopment, weapons in antiquity just aren't that good at killing people quickly, meaning a defeated army has plenty of time to split up, run away, and live to fight again another day. And even if we make the generous assumption that you actually managed to kill every single soldier China fought, the polities that lost those men have plenty of time to raise more armies for their war - just like China is busy doing.

4) Yes China does have a fucking army for every city, what do you think the provincial armies are made up of? Why do bandits seem to have 100% of their population stealing shit and I can’t get even some guys with spears in a town?

By which you mean militia - people we've already discussed not being up to turning back enemy armies in force.

5) How does this change anything? If they have kings or not doesn’t change what they actually are. They are not interested in conquering territory and increased opposition would result in them moving to more remote areas.

Well, I'm not sure we can assume that. Why do you think no enemy polity would be interested in occupying China's valuable forges, or granaries, or indeed her large population of ready-made slaves.

6) The 20% that China has secure is the most populous parts of the country and the roads and iron mines that hold it together. I am not fighting concurrently in 80% of my territory, most fighting is small raids and happens at a relatively small and decreasing number of settlements near enemy territory. 100% of the enemy population is not raiding 80% of the country at any given moment.

See you say this, but I don't buy it. Why are these polities opposed to China limited to small raids? All of China's territory is 'near enemy territory', as she is a nation of loci not space-filling. I've never said 100% of any population is engaged in raiding - but there's no reason why, in any given campaign season, the polities at war with China aren't marching their armies into China's territory and trying to seize territory/goods/slaves/etc. at any given point in her territory.

7) Holy shit how many times do I need to explain I don’t need a guy posted every ten meters to defend a road? Why do you want to cut me down to ten percent of my size so bad? Do you not think the incredible demands you are making are not even just a LITTLE BIT unrealistic and insane?

Put like that, uh, no, I don't. I'm merely asking you to justify how China is defending on apparently every front successfully, given her tricky geopolitical situation and limited forces.

8 ) Anyone living in a settlement that was “undefended” has already probably been moved into a bigger well defended settlement or somewhere else. Also if the enemy is taking slaves they run into the same problem I have - how do you provide enough guards to stop the slaves from revolting?

Consolidating your position to better defend it is a good idea - have you actually posted about that? I don't recall seeing it. As for the taking of slaves, I assume those people near China have no reason to emulate China's "everyone will now be a slave" stratagem. A few slaves is profitable, kill or drive off the rest.

9) You want me to stop posting is what you want. I don’t want to have to fight the worst event ever in the RP constantly, I want to PLAY THE FUCKING GAME. Your expectation of what the bandits are doing is unrealistic and unreasonable. They are not inhuman monsters who exist only to pillage. Also, why in god’s name would I have INTERNAL ISSUES? If anything people would want to support their government more because only it stands between them and total obliteration.

I certainly am not saying you have to stop posting - I'm merely asking you to abide by RP conventions on realism when making your posts. I'm certainly not positing either that your enemies are remorseless machines that exist only to screw over the YRS - I'm simply pointing out that those polities which have not seen military defeat have no reason to not continue attacking the YRS, as they profit by doing so.

Ah, you see, that's a nice optimistic assumption perhaps every wartime government has made going back to the dawn of time; but it isn't a truth. There are as many reasons in wartime for your people to be dissatisfied as at any other time. Oftentimes more. Some settlements might be looking to make a separate peace with their local foes, military officers could be angry with heavy losses and plotting a coup so they can conduct the war the 'right way', political dissidents might see the government's weakness as an opportunity to strike, ambitious governors might take the opportunity to amass power, iron producing settlements might want to hold back weapons for their own defense instead of supplying the central government, and so. As Suri notes - no state is without internal issues.

Your idea that bandits must be singleminded raiding machines who do nothing but fuck with me is the most unrealistic thing about this. Why do you insist on trying to remove me from the game still? I have tried to reason with you, talk to you about technology and figure out things. I have made efforts to try and cooperate with you on every level but here you have done nothing but insist I should stop playing the game because you claim bandits are literally everywhere and only exist to provide NPC enemies for me to gradually massacre.

Again, the 'bandit' language is getting in the way of you understanding what I am saying. China doesn't exist in a vacuum - she has neighbors on every side. These neighbors are who your government decided to suddenly and harshly remove from the bribery tit, and thus they aren't happy with China. If you want to only massacre them that's totally up to you, but a war of extermination will bleed China white along with her foes.

[Orostan]

1) Again, you act like china needs to be everywhere at once. It does not. China needs to protect convoys and run some patrols - these are the most taxing parts of China’s defense. You seem to just want me to collapse. There are no unprotected cities or trade routes and the idea that there is is insane. Stop arguing I should essentially just stop playing the game, it’s unrealistic.

I'm still not hearing a 'why' as to the explanation why China doesn't need to defend her settlements against hostile armies?

2) It does not take six fucking years to build a wood wall and battering rams are new technology basically. Siege ladders can be deployed but again the attacking force will take so many casualties trying to use them that it may be prohibitively expensive to take even medium sized towns.

If you're talking about a wooden wall, sure, that's reasonable to erect swiftly. Also not really a great defense for outnumbered and panicky militiamen when facing an enemy army - you can batter down a wooden gate in a matter of minutes using literally a lopped tree trunk. If I were a 'bandit' king and found a city defended only by a militia and a humble wooden palisade I would be perfectly happy to assault such a town.

3) You agreed 50% of them were gone, are you walking that back now? What the fuck does “regrouped” mean?

I agreed that fifty percent of them were defeated in that battle - that hardly means you killed and captured fifty percent of China's enemies. Barring a Cannae-like double envelopment, weapons in antiquity just aren't that good at killing people quickly, meaning a defeated army has plenty of time to split up, run away, and live to fight again another day. And even if we make the generous assumption that you actually managed to kill every single soldier China fought, the polities that lost those men have plenty of time to raise more armies for their war - just like China is busy doing.

4) Yes China does have a fucking army for every city, what do you think the provincial armies are made up of? Why do bandits seem to have 100% of their population stealing shit and I can’t get even some guys with spears in a town?

By which you mean militia - people we've already discussed not being up to turning back enemy armies in force.

5) How does this change anything? If they have kings or not doesn’t change what they actually are. They are not interested in conquering territory and increased opposition would result in them moving to more remote areas.

Well, I'm not sure we can assume that. Why do you think no enemy polity would be interested in occupying China's valuable forges, or granaries, or indeed her large population of ready-made slaves.

6) The 20% that China has secure is the most populous parts of the country and the roads and iron mines that hold it together. I am not fighting concurrently in 80% of my territory, most fighting is small raids and happens at a relatively small and decreasing number of settlements near enemy territory. 100% of the enemy population is not raiding 80% of the country at any given moment.

See you say this, but I don't buy it. Why are these polities opposed to China limited to small raids? All of China's territory is 'near enemy territory', as she is a nation of loci not space-filling. I've never said 100% of any population is engaged in raiding - but there's no reason why, in any given campaign season, the polities at war with China aren't marching their armies into China's territory and trying to seize territory/goods/slaves/etc. at any given point in her territory.

7) Holy shit how many times do I need to explain I don’t need a guy posted every ten meters to defend a road? Why do you want to cut me down to ten percent of my size so bad? Do you not think the incredible demands you are making are not even just a LITTLE BIT unrealistic and insane?

Put like that, uh, no, I don't. I'm merely asking you to justify how China is defending on apparently every front successfully, given her tricky geopolitical situation and limited forces.

8 ) Anyone living in a settlement that was “undefended” has already probably been moved into a bigger well defended settlement or somewhere else. Also if the enemy is taking slaves they run into the same problem I have - how do you provide enough guards to stop the slaves from revolting?

Consolidating your position to better defend it is a good idea - have you actually posted about that? I don't recall seeing it. As for the taking of slaves, I assume those people near China have no reason to emulate China's "everyone will now be a slave" stratagem. A few slaves is profitable, kill or drive off the rest.

9) You want me to stop posting is what you want. I don’t want to have to fight the worst event ever in the RP constantly, I want to PLAY THE FUCKING GAME. Your expectation of what the bandits are doing is unrealistic and unreasonable. They are not inhuman monsters who exist only to pillage. Also, why in god’s name would I have INTERNAL ISSUES? If anything people would want to support their government more because only it stands between them and total obliteration.

I certainly am not saying you have to stop posting - I'm merely asking you to abide by RP conventions on realism when making your posts. I'm certainly not positing either that your enemies are remorseless machines that exist only to screw over the YRS - I'm simply pointing out that those polities which have not seen military defeat have no reason to not continue attacking the YRS, as they profit by doing so.

Ah, you see, that's a nice optimistic assumption perhaps every wartime government has made going back to the dawn of time; but it isn't a truth. There are as many reasons in wartime for your people to be dissatisfied as at any other time. Oftentimes more. Some settlements might be looking to make a separate peace with their local foes, military officers could be angry with heavy losses and plotting a coup so they can conduct the war the 'right way', political dissidents might see the government's weakness as an opportunity to strike, ambitious governors might take the opportunity to amass power, iron producing settlements might want to hold back weapons for their own defense instead of supplying the central government, and so. As Suri notes - no state is without internal issues.

Your idea that bandits must be singleminded raiding machines who do nothing but fuck with me is the most unrealistic thing about this. Why do you insist on trying to remove me from the game still? I have tried to reason with you, talk to you about technology and figure out things. I have made efforts to try and cooperate with you on every level but here you have done nothing but insist I should stop playing the game because you claim bandits are literally everywhere and only exist to provide NPC enemies for me to gradually massacre.

Again, the 'bandit' language is getting in the way of you understanding what I am saying. China doesn't exist in a vacuum - she has neighbors on every side. These neighbors are who your government decided to suddenly and harshly remove from the bribery tit, and thus they aren't happy with China. If you want to only massacre them that's totally up to you, but a war of extermination will bleed China white along with her foes.

1) IT DOES. I said this multiple times already!

2) Larger settlements have better walls. Luoyang has a big ass stone wall and a city half its size will rely on bricks and rammed earth and a small town might just have some wood wall. What inflicts most casualties on attacking bandits is ranged weapons, and as I said before small towns with wood walls would not exist in regions threatened by lots of bandits.

3) Okay, whatever. Point is every bandit tribe in a good part of the plains got their shit kicked in and killed before they had the chance to do that type of thing.

4) Fucking idiotic way to criticize me. They don’t have to ever do that.

5) Because if they did I WOULD HAVE KILLED THEM ALREADY IT HAS BEEN TWO FUCKING YEARS.

6) Do you think they like long drawn out sieges that attract Chinese armies to them? The best targets are convoys of supplies.

7) It’s not, read my telegram. I don’t have to do that.

8 ) Yes I have in multiple posts. Certainly in more detail than your development of the steam locomotive was by the look of it.

9) Nonsense. If there are parts of China like that everyone there is dead and only harder targets would be left.

10) China is already fighting a war of annihilation. Either the bandits get killed or join China. There is no other alternative. I have made it very clear I am not killing literally everyone.

[Ralnis]

How common is trade from beyond Xianyun to them and going into China proper?

[The Hierophancy]

Reading through the IC posts - what exactly are these peppers being bought at the market, Suriyanakhon?? Have you perhaps already discovered the new world??? SMH. Whats next? Potato curry??? Madness

[Ralnis]

Reading through the IC posts - what exactly are these peppers being bought at the market, Suriyanakhon?? Have you perhaps already discovered the new world??? SMH. Whats next? Potato curry??? Madness

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shishito

[G-Tech Corporation]

1) IT DOES. I said this multiple times already!

With armies that are combat ready which can actually stop enemy incursions? You certainly haven't said that.

2) Larger settlements have better walls. Luoyang has a big ass stone wall and a city half its size will rely on bricks and rammed earth and a small town might just have some wood wall. What inflicts most casualties on attacking bandits is ranged weapons, and as I said before small towns with wood walls would not exist in regions threatened by lots of bandits.

Constructing a fitted stone wall around an urban center of tens of thousands of people within a decade is almost impossible with Neolithic technology, just letting you know. Even two decades, still basically impossible. Assuming China started building a stone wall the moment Aaron gained a shred of power, she would have had to put a great amount of her resources toward this end, and I certainly haven't seen any signs of that. Ditto for walling up other cities. Plzen did some good numbers on this back when she was the Commonwealth.

3) Okay, whatever. Point is every bandit tribe in a good part of the plains got their shit kicked in and killed before they had the chance to do that type of thing.

Exactly who was doing this 'shit kicking and killing' though - I've noted repeatedly that frankly no army is capable of moving quickly enough to do what you posit, and I've yet to hear how the Chinese armies have managed to exceed this criteria.

4) Fucking idiotic way to criticize me. They don’t have to ever do that.

In what way is it idiotic to note that a citizen's militia is at a disadvantage when it comes to holding back state armies? I certainly don't buy that the militia will never have been engaged, if that is your premise.

5) Because if they did I WOULD HAVE KILLED THEM ALREADY IT HAS BEEN TWO FUCKING YEARS.

You seem very confident that two years is a long time when it comes to Neolithic conflicts - far from it. Indeed, with communications substantially disrupted and China's immense size in play, it might take the better part of those two years for word to even reach the central government that outlying settlements are under attack. Not to mention the time to march an army on foot across a thousand+ kilometers of hostile country

6) Do you think they like long drawn out sieges that attract Chinese armies to them? The best targets are convoys of supplies.

Why would an enemy army engage in a siege against a settlement they can simply overwhelm by force? Like I said - you can breach a wooden gate in minutes. Or burn a palisade in hours.

7) It’s not, read my telegram. I don’t have to do that.

Fine, I'll leave that for Joohan to talk you through in the TG.

8 ) Yes I have in multiple posts. Certainly in more detail than your development of the steam locomotive was by the look of it.

Would you care to point me to it? It is entirely possible I missed it, and if China is significantly contracting her borders to secure her people then much of this discussion is moot.

9) Nonsense. If there are parts of China like that everyone there is dead and only harder targets would be left.

So, large portions of China are depopulated by war. Fair enough. I'd like to see that reflected in your writing.

10) China is already fighting a war of annihilation. Either the bandits get killed or join China. There is no other alternative. I have made it very clear I am not killing literally everyone.

Sounds like a bloody way to fight a war, but that's your affair. You're conscripting soldiers to replace your losses I take it?

[The Hierophancy]

Reading through the IC posts - what exactly are these peppers being bought at the market, Suriyanakhon?? Have you perhaps already discovered the new world??? SMH. Whats next? Potato curry??? Madness

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shishito

Capiscum annuum, like all capiscum, is native to North America. Trains in 2960 BCE, fine, but anachronistic cultivars are where I draw the line.

[G-Tech Corporation]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shishito

Capiscum annuum, like all capiscum, is native to North America. Trains in 2960 BCE, fine, but anachronistic cultivars are where I draw the line.

Really we should have some Japanese fishermen being carried over to North America sometime soon, then returning via the Bering Sea. That would be a fun narrative.

[The Hierophancy]

In what way is it idiotic to note that a citizen's militia is at a disadvantage when it comes to holding back state armies? I certainly don't buy that the militia will never have been engaged, if that is your premise.

Do the opposing Chinese states have standing armies or something? Just thinking as to how some of the most famed (here in the West at least) bronze / iron age armies (specifically the Greeks) were essentially militiamen who "trained" like, once a year at public games. Plato wrote a dialog about the two perfectly reasonable points of view that soldiers should be trained in using their weapons and they shouldn't, lol. That said, I don't know if the Chinese cities have the wonderful phalanx and cultural outlook to shore up and equip a bunch of 14-50 year old random citizens every battle.