New Civilizations [OOC | Always Open]

[Orostan]

yes it would, why wouldn't it? I have a lot of broken weapons and recycling them would absolutely be a significant part of Chinese iron production going to weapons.

From material lost while out in the field and then more material lost inside the furnace itself

Okay, let's say I lose a third of total material in the field and another third of all my material in the furnace. This is overstating it but that leaves me getting an entire third of my iron back which is hardly an insignificant amount.

[The Hierophancy]

yes it would, why wouldn't it? I have a lot of broken weapons and recycling them would absolutely be a significant part of Chinese iron production going to weapons.

From material lost while out in the field and then more material lost inside the furnace itself

I mean, even at the mentioned up-to-50% material losses it still feels like the recycled iron output'd be significant. 2 broken halberd heads into one unbroken halberd head seems a fine enough deal to me.

[Ralnis]

Need to have kilns set up with blowers or fans to increase the heat to melt down scavenged Chinese iron and turn it into Xianyun iron.

[Orostan]

Need to have kilns set up with blowers or fans to increase the heat to melt down scavenged Chinese iron and turn it into Xianyun iron.

That reminds me, the steam engine is going to be a massive help for Chinese blast furnace bellows.

[The Hierophancy]

Need to have kilns set up with blowers or fans to increase the heat to melt down scavenged Chinese iron and turn it into Xianyun iron.

That reminds me, the steam engine is going to be a massive help for Chinese blast furnace bellows.

If a steam engine runs the bellows keeping the blast furnace fire hot, what runs the bellows keeping the steam engine fire hot?

[Joohan]

From material lost while out in the field and then more material lost inside the furnace itself

Okay, let's say I lose a third of total material in the field and another third of all my material in the furnace. This is overstating it but that leaves me getting an entire third of my iron back which is hardly an insignificant amount.

1/3rd of materials - which are recoverable. Aside from things like arrows or shattered items, which, obviously can't be practically recovered - you're going to be dealing with one of history's most prolific and common battlefield scavengers, looters!

Throughout history, hordes of peasants would often follow close behind armies, in anticipation of looting their corpses post any skirmish. I can't imagine the situation would be any different for China. Your own scavengers will only be picking up what looters had left behind. I could see maybe 10% recovery

[Orostan]

That reminds me, the steam engine is going to be a massive help for Chinese blast furnace bellows.

If a steam engine runs the bellows keeping the blast furnace fire hot, what runs the bellows keeping the steam engine fire hot?

I don't think bellows for the steam engine would really be necessary.

[Orostan]

Okay, let's say I lose a third of total material in the field and another third of all my material in the furnace. This is overstating it but that leaves me getting an entire third of my iron back which is hardly an insignificant amount.

1/3rd of materials - which are recoverable. Aside from things like arrows or shattered items, which, obviously can't be practically recovered - you're going to be dealing with one of history's most prolific and common battlefield scavengers, looters!

Throughout history, hordes of peasants would often follow close behind armies, in anticipation of looting their corpses post any skirmish. I can't imagine the situation would be any different for China. Your own scavengers will only be picking up what looters had left behind. I could see maybe 10% recovery

Where is that iron going then? Peasants can't use shattered bits of iron. If anything a bunch of loyal locals who collect iron and then give it to the nearest blast furnace is good for me! Broken weapons and tools are useful to nobody, least of all those looters.

[The Hierophancy]

If a steam engine runs the bellows keeping the blast furnace fire hot, what runs the bellows keeping the steam engine fire hot?

I don't think bellows for the steam engine would really be necessary.

A series of infinitely smaller steam engines driving the bellows for other steam engines is a much more amusing image than the alternative, though

[Joohan]

1/3rd of materials - which are recoverable. Aside from things like arrows or shattered items, which, obviously can't be practically recovered - you're going to be dealing with one of history's most prolific and common battlefield scavengers, looters!

Throughout history, hordes of peasants would often follow close behind armies, in anticipation of looting their corpses post any skirmish. I can't imagine the situation would be any different for China. Your own scavengers will only be picking up what looters had left behind. I could see maybe 10% recovery

Where is that iron going then? Peasants can't use shattered bits of iron. If anything a bunch of loyal locals who collect iron and then give it to the nearest blast furnace is good for me! Broken weapons and tools are useful to nobody, least of all those looters.

Or they're selling it to the other team...

[Orostan]

Where is that iron going then? Peasants can't use shattered bits of iron. If anything a bunch of loyal locals who collect iron and then give it to the nearest blast furnace is good for me! Broken weapons and tools are useful to nobody, least of all those looters.

Or they're selling it to the other team...

Why would they sell it to the people destroying their homes and how would the bandits even use it? That doesn't make any sense. Also anyone doing that would be killed anyways.

[Suriyanakhon]

Where is that iron going then? Peasants can't use shattered bits of iron. If anything a bunch of loyal locals who collect iron and then give it to the nearest blast furnace is good for me! Broken weapons and tools are useful to nobody, least of all those looters.

Or they're selling it to the other team...

Speaking of which the weapons that the bandits brought to Japan are going to be a big help.

[Ralnis]

Where is that iron going then? Peasants can't use shattered bits of iron. If anything a bunch of loyal locals who collect iron and then give it to the nearest blast furnace is good for me! Broken weapons and tools are useful to nobody, least of all those looters.

Or they're selling it to the other team...

I know one group of charioteers are going to be buying that in bulk.

[Orostan]

Or they're selling it to the other team...

Speaking of which the weapons that the bandits brought to Japan are going to be a big help.

You have a limited number of them and the bandits have no idea how to make iron, they barely knew how to sail those ships they brought over. Maybe they know what iron looks like but getting a working blast furnace will take you a while.

[Ralnis]

Speaking of which the weapons that the bandits brought to Japan are going to be a big help.

You have a limited number of them and the bandits have no idea how to make iron, they barely knew how to sail those ships they brought over. Maybe they know what iron looks like but getting a working blast furnace will take you a while.

A kiln is good as well.

[Orostan]

You have a limited number of them and the bandits have no idea how to make iron, they barely knew how to sail those ships they brought over. Maybe they know what iron looks like but getting a working blast furnace will take you a while.

A kiln is good as well.

Not for making iron.

[Joohan]

Why would they sell it to the people destroying their homes

... Haven't you literally been killing and enslaving all their neighbors and cousins?

how would the bandits even use it?

I imagine much the same way you do - primitive smelting techniques.

Also anyone doing that would be killed anyways.

Ah yes, the omnipresent Chinese army, who are everywhere all at once and in addition to guarding 800,000 miles of territory, actively engaging in battles against enemy tribes, and guarding a slave population in the tens of thousands, can also be bothered to hunt down corpse looters...

[Ralnis]

A kiln is good as well.

Not for making iron.

Yes, yes it does. Kilns can be used for it. Bloomries aren't impossible to understand and make as well.

[Orostan]

Why would they sell it to the people destroying their homes

... Haven't you literally been killing and enslaving all their neighbors and cousins?

how would the bandits even use it?

I imagine much the same way you do - primitive smelting techniques.

Also anyone doing that would be killed anyways.

Ah yes, the omnipresent Chinese army, who are everywhere all at once and in addition to guarding 800,000 miles of territory, actively engaging in battles against enemy tribes, and guarding a slave population in the tens of thousands, can also be bothered to hunt down corpse looters...

1) No, I've been doing that to bandits. If those people were their cousins they would have not become bandits and integrated themselves with China and become the people I'm trying to defend!

2) Again, they have even less expertise than I do with this.

3) Yes, it can actually. China gets the locals to gather up the iron after a battle and trying to steal iron or something would be noticed. bruh.

[Joohan]

1) No, I've been doing that to bandits. If those people were their cousins they would have not become bandits and integrated themselves with China and become the people I'm trying to defend!

As both I and G have told you before - these aren't bandits. These are not criminals whose full time profession is robbery and extortion, and who are without land or higher duties. These are the warriors and called upon kin-folk of tribes who had been paid off by Chinese cities before the state's crack down on corruption. These are the farmers and carpenters and millers and warriors who lived in those tribes which chose not to fall under Aaron's system, and which profited from tribute by those cities which did - in exchange for their passivity. They rose up after their tribute had been cut off. These aren't bandits - they're the neighbors.

2) Again, they have even less expertise than I do with this.

I didn't say it'd be efficient - but even you've stated that surrounding peoples have been massively influenced by Aaron's civilization. Why wouldn't these tribes try adopting China's technology as well? Extremely primitive though their attempts - a couple cities having their armories' and tools looted definitely has given them a boost.

3) Yes, it can actually. China gets the locals

The same locals who are also looting for their own profit?

[Orostan]

1) No, I've been doing that to bandits. If those people were their cousins they would have not become bandits and integrated themselves with China and become the people I'm trying to defend!

As both I and G have told you before - these aren't bandits. These are not criminals whose full time profession is robbery and extortion, and who are without land or higher duties. These are the warriors and called upon kin-folk of tribes who had been paid off by Chinese cities before the state's crack down on corruption. These are the farmers and carpenters and millers and warriors who lived in those tribes which chose not to fall under Aaron's system, and which profited from tribute by those cities which did - in exchange for their passivity. They rose up after their tribute had been cut off. These aren't bandits - they're the neighbors.

2) Again, they have even less expertise than I do with this.

I didn't say it'd be efficient - but even you've stated that surrounding peoples have been massively influenced by Aaron's civilization. Why wouldn't these tribes try adopting China's technology as well? Extremely primitive though their attempts - a couple cities having their armories' and tools looted definitely has given them a boost.

3) Yes, it can actually. China gets the locals

The same locals who are also looting for their own profit?

1) They're neighbors people hate for having a fit when it was demanded they contribute something in exchange for having a free stuff. If anything the chinese government would be criticized for not being genocidal enough towards those people.

2) Sure, but they sure as hell aren't getting anything off battlefields.

3) No the same people that live there. If the locals are hostiles the soldiers can collect their own iron and kill all the locals.

[The Hierophancy]

1) They're neighbors people hate for having a fit when it was demanded they contribute something in exchange for having a free stuff. If anything the chinese government would be criticized for not being genocidal enough towards those people.

Free stuff you demand something in exchange for... hmm...

[Ralnis]

What the YRS envoy sees when the Roving King sits on Yin Yi's throne.

[Joohan]

1) They're neighbors people hate for having a fit when it was demanded they contribute something in exchange for having a free stuff.

that's kind of a big reason why a lot of people agreed to Aaron's system, to pacify and dominate their neighbors. These people are their cousins, speak the same language as them, worship the same gods. They'd feel closer to them than they would most other peoples in the Chinese system. After two years of war and nation wide shortages, your average peasant is looking to make whatever profit he can - and he knows his cousins over the hill would be willing to pay for the junk he collects on the battlefield

2) Sure, but they sure as hell aren't getting anything off battlefields.

Nothing you've said so far would lead me to believe otherwise

3) No the same people that live there.

Yes, the ones looking to make a profit by pilfering through corpses.

If the locals are hostiles the soldiers can collect their own iron and kill all the locals.

In the middle of battle? When I say that looters followed close behind armies set to skirmish, I mean that they were usually right behind them. You're going to pull off essential forces to go and murder some peasants who you couldn't possibly know where on your side or not? And even then, haven't you multiple times in your posts described chasing down enemy forces attempting to flee and annihilating' them completely? That kind of fast paced warfare which leaves neither time nor room for the combing over of a battlefield?

[The Hierophancy]

What the YRS envoy sees when the Roving King sits on Yin Yi's throne.

Impressively menacing slouch