Where The Green Grass Grows [OOC][ALWAYS OPEN][HISTORICAL]

[Strala]

National Revolutionary Army
國民革命軍
Guómín Gémìng Jūn

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History:

The National Revolutionary army was formed during the Xinhai Revolution through a merger of Hubei New Army units, Qing deserters, and armed revolutionaries and peasants. The quality of individuals in the national Revolutionary army depended on whether they were located, with most of the experienced and decently equipped soldiers located near the Central plains East Coast, and the Southern provinces whether support for the Revolution was high. Units in the western provinces and northern provinces tended to be a lot more mixed as Qing deserters fought alongside armed revolutionaries and peasants.

During the revolution, armies and their officers typically worked separately unless they were forced to work together to combat a stronger Qing force. This was due to the factionalism that was rampant amongst many of the Republic’s leading generals, which eventually spread to the lower ranks. Soldiers and officers typically worked alongside others from the same clique/former army units, and occasionally sabotaged the war efforts of other units.

By the end of the Xinhai Revolution, most of the units were demobilized or folded into the newly Beiyang dominated Republican army. However, the factionalism that was rampant in the early National Revolutionary Army, carried over into the new Republic of China Armed Forces. The Beiyang army itself was divided into multiple cliques, with some more Pro-Sun and Tongmenghui/Kuomintang/Guomindang while others were more Pro-Yuan. However, this division in the armed forces helped Sun Yat-Sen and his supporters during the second Revolution.

The Second Revolution saw a decrease in division and factionalism in the National Revolutionary Army with political commissars being attached to all NRA units. Soldiers that fought under the banner of the KMT were educated in the three principles of the people by their commissars, with less loyal officers being purged throughout the entirety of the revolution. By the end of the second revolution, almost all of the officer corps of the National Revolutionary Army was fierce loyalists of Sun Yat-Sen and the Central Government in Nanjing. But, the relatively small size of the National Revolutionary Army, and the strength of the Beiyang Army, forced the Nanjing government to accept the semi-autonomous rule of many warlords in the northern and western parts of the country, with the Fengtian being the strongest out of all of the warlords.

In 1914, the NRA underwent a series of reforms transforming into a modern volunteer army, with foreign advisors helping to train the new NRA’s officer corps and common soldiery. One distinct feature of the newly formed National Revolutionary Army was the amount of modern artillery being used. An individual NRA division tended to have around 110 artillery guns of varying calibers, far more than most European and other Asian divisions of equivalent size. The relatively small size of the National Revolutionary Army and previous modernization attempts helped the Nanjing government immensely.

National Revolutionary Army

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Northern Military Region


1st Army Group |Harbin headquarter|150,000

1st Field Army

-1st Motorized Division (10,000)
-3rd Rifle Division (10,000)
-4th Rifle Division (10,000)
-6th Rifle Division (10,000)

2nd Field Army

-10th Rifle Division (10,000)
-15th Rifle Division (10,000)
-20th Rifle Division (10,000)
-21st Rifle Division (10,000)

3rd Field Army

-22nd Rifle Division (10,000)
-25th Rifle Division (10,000)
-26th Rifle Division (10,000)
-3rd Cavalry Division (10,000)

4th Field Army

-5th Cavalry Division (10,000)
-27th Rifle Division (10,000)
-6th Rifle Brigade (3,000)
-7th Rifle Brigade (3,000)
-8th Rifle Brigade (3,000)

City Garrison
-28th Rifle Regiment(Harbin Garrison)(1,000)

3rd Army Group |Xi’an headquarter|150,000

5th Field Army
-2nd Motorized Division (10,000)
-43rd Rifle Division (10,000)
-44th Rifle Division (10,000)
-65th Rifle Division (10,000)

-6th Field Army
-94th Rifle Division (10,000)
-95th Rifle Division (10,000)
-14th Rifle Division (10,000)
-31st Rifle Division (10,000)

7th Field Army
-52nd Rifle Division (10,000)
-55th Rifle Division (10,000)
-56th Rifle Division (10,000)
-23rd Cavalry Division (10,000)

8th Field Army
-59th Rifle Division (10,000)
-27th Cavalry Division (10,000)
-9th Rifle Brigade (3,000)
-10th Rifle Brigade (3,000)
-11th Rifle Brigade (3,000)

City Garrison
-38th Rifle Regiment(Shanxi Garrison)(1,000)

Reserves: 450,000

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Western Theater Command


4th Army Group |Ürümqi headquarter|150,000

9th Field Army
-41st Rifle Division (10,000)
-93rd Rifle Division (10,000)
-54th Rifle Division (10,000)
-35th Rifle Division (10,000)

10th Field Army
-74th Rifle Division (10,000)
-75th Rifle Division (10,000)
-104th Rifle Division (10,000)
-71st Rifle Division (10,000)

11th Field Army
-102nd Rifle Division (10,000)
-105th Rifle Division (10,000)
-156th Rifle Division (10,000)
-123rd Rifle Division (10,000)

12th Field Army
-125th Cavalry Division (10,000)
-127th Cavalry Division (10,000)
-17th Rifle Brigade (3,000)
-18th Rifle Brigade (3,000)
-19th Rifle Brigade (3,000)

City Garrison
-138th Rifle Regiment(Xi’an Garrison)(1,000)

Reserves: 350,000

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Central Army Command


5th Army Group| Chongqing headquarter| 150,000


13th Field Army
-141st Rifle Division (10,000)
-193rd Rifle Division (10,000)
-154th Rifle Division (10,000)
-135th Rifle Division (10,000)

14th Field Army
-174th Rifle Division (10,000)
-175th Rifle Division (10,000)
-114th Rifle Division (10,000)
-171st Rifle Division (10,000)

15th Field Army
-112nd Rifle Division (10,000)
-115th Rifle Division (10,000)
-136th Rifle Division (10,000)
-133rd Rifle Division (10,000)

16th Field Army
-135th Cavalry Division (10,000)
-137th Cavalry Division (10,000)
-97th Rifle Brigade (3,000)
-98th Rifle Brigade (3,000)
-99th Rifle Brigade (3,000)

City Garrison
-128th Rifle Regiment(Chongqing Garrison)(1,000)

Reserves: 500,000

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Eastern Theater Command


2nd Group Army| Nanjing headquarters| 160,000


23rd Field Army
-131st Rifle Division (10,000)
-143rd Rifle Division (10,000)
-144th Rifle Division (10,000)
-145th Rifle Division (10,000)

24th Field Army
-164th Rifle Division (10,000)
-165th Rifle Division (10,000)
-124th Rifle Division (10,000)
-121st Rifle Division (10,000)

25th Field Army
-122nd Rifle Division (10,000)
-125th Rifle Division (10,000)
-126th Rifle Division (10,000)
-173rd Rifle Division (10,000)

26th Field Army
-155th Cavalry Division (10,000)
-157th Cavalry Division (10,000)
-198th Rifle Division (10,000)
-107th Rifle Brigade (3,000)
-117th Rifle Brigade (3,000)
-118th Rifle Brigade (3,000)

City Garrison
-138th Rifle Brigade(Nanjing Garrison)(1,000)
-5 airplanes

6th Army Group| Guangzhou headquarter| 120,000


27th Field Army
-231st Rifle Division (10,000)
-243rd Rifle Division (10,000)
-244th Rifle Division (10,000)
-245th Rifle Division (10,000)

28th Field Army
-264th Rifle Division (10,000)
-265th Rifle Division (10,000)
-224th Rifle Division (10,000)
-221st Rifle Division (10,000)

29th Field Army
-222nd Rifle Division (10,000)
-225th Rifle Division (10,000)
-226th Rifle Division (10,000)
-273rd Rifle Brigade (3,000)
-277th Rifle Brigade (3,000)
-278th Rifle Brigade (3,000)

City Garrison
-238th Rifle Regiment(Guangzhou Garrison)(1,000)

7th Army Group| Chongqing headquarter| 100,000


30th Field Army
-331st Rifle Division (10,000)
-343rd Rifle Division (10,000)
-344th Rifle Division (10,000)
-345th Rifle Division (10,000)

31st Field Army
-364th Rifle Division (10,000)
-365th Rifle Division (10,000)
-324th Rifle Division (10,000)
-321st Rifle Division (10,000)

22nd Independent Corp
-326th Rifle Division (10,000)
-373rd Rifle Brigade (3,000)
-377th Rifle Brigade (3,000)
-378th Rifle Brigade (3,000)

City Garrison
-338th Rifle Regiment(Chongqing Garrison)(1,000)

Reserves: 1 million

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Chinese Intervention in Russia

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Russian Far East

Far Eastern Bandit Suppression Force
-43rd Rifle Division (10,000)
-94th Rifle Division (10,000)
-52nd Rifle Division (10,000)
-3rd Cavalry Division (10,000)
-157th Cavalry Division (10,000)
-101st Reserve Rifle Division (10,000)
-102nd Reserve Rifle Division (10,000)
-19th Reserve Cavalry Divison (10,000)

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Central Asia

Central Asia Bandit Suppression force
-141st Rifle Division (10,000)
-135th Cavalry Division (10,000)
-132nd Reserve Rifle Division (10,000)
-18th Reserve Cavalry Division (10,000)

The reason for the names will be explained in IC. Officially China will try to angle this as something other than aiding the Soviets. Officially, they're being sent to suppress bandit forces in Central Asia and the Russian Far East. Another reason will likely be a stable border region since fighting could spill over into China which is something government wants to prevent and the Chinese government IC at least has no reason to trust Kerensky to be able to reign in his troops, especially the Cossacks given his history.

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National Revolutionary Army Navy

North Sea Fleet| Tianjin headquarter| 5,000
-1/4th of all ships

East Sea Fleet| Shanghai headquarter| 10,000
-1/2 of all ships and all modern cruisers

South Sea Fleet| Guangzhou headquarter| 5,000
-1/4th of all ships
[/align]

[Strala]

I'll add forces in Russia later. This what the normal distribution. Forces in Russia are likely going to be a combination of the First, Second, and Third Army Groups. Also, I was too lazy to do the force expansion of 2 million so just think of the rest as 80 infantry divisions and 20 cavalry divisions. These are made of former reservists and new volunteers/conscripts and soldiers from warlord armies. I'll add them in alter

[Mifan]

NS Nation Name: Mifan
Nation Name (Official): The German Empire
Nation Name (Shortened): Germany
Capital City: Berlin
Type of Government: Constitutional Monarchy
Leader: Kaiser Wilhelm II
Territory: 1914 German Empire Borders
Colonies: IRL German Colonies
Primary Religion: Christianity, United Protestant to be exact
Primary Ethnicity: German (As a Whole) Prussian, Bavarian, Saxon, Swabian (Based off the four German Kingdoms)
GDP (Nominal): 45 Billion

---

Active Duty Troops: 4.5 Million
Reserve Troops: 5.5 Million
Total Manpower: 10 Million

Tanks: 20 A7V
Aircraft: 2,700 Aircraft, 56 Airships
Artillery Pieces: 16,000
Cavalry: 10,000

Dreadnoughts: 14
Frigates: 7 (I'm going to assume Battlecruisers fall in this class)
Battleships: 22

History: In the grand scheme of things, Germany is a fairly young nation compared to its neighbors. The idea of a united Germany was a new one, something that didn't spark until the aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars. With the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire and the creation of the newly formed, German Confederation, German nationalism began to rise drastically. However, the idea of a united Germany came with a problem, which nation would lead it.

Both Prussia and Austria were vying to be the nation to unify Germany, and both were very well in the position to do so, but only one of them could rule. In Prussia, Otto von Bismarck would end up leading the nation through wars with Denmark, Austria, and France, in an effort to unify the many German states under the Prussian Banner. The war against Austria in 1866 helped form the North German Confederation, and the Franco-Prussian War helped to convince the southern German states that a united Germany were in their best interest.

Unification of all the German states created a massive new power within Europe, one that upset the balance of power. With a rapidly growing economy, massive army, and an increasing navy, Germany was seen as a threat to many European powers. With tensions rising in Europe, all it took was one spark to cause a war, and with the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Germany gave Austria-Hungary its full support, joining its side in the Great War.

However, everything that Germany has gained ,in the past 40 years, may all be lost with its defeat in the war.

RP Sample: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=458919

Other: I saw that, slight alternate history was being allowed, so I hope it's fine if the Kaiser and three other German Kings didn't abdicate in this timeline.

I accept and acknowledge the rules, terms, and premise of this roleplay: Mifan

Do Not Remove: Pepperoni Pizza Pie

[Strala]

(Image)

NS Nation Name: Mifan
Nation Name (Official): The German Empire
Nation Name (Shortened): Germany
Capital City: Berlin
Type of Government: Constitutional Monarchy
Leader: Kaiser Wilhelm II
Territory: 1914 German Empire Borders
Colonies: IRL German Colonies
Primary Religion: Christianity, United Protestant to be exact
Primary Ethnicity: German (As a Whole) Prussian, Bavarian, Saxon, Swabian (Based off the four German Kingdoms)
GDP (Nominal): 45 Billion

---

Active Duty Troops: 4.5 Million
Reserve Troops: 5.5 Million
Total Manpower: 10 Million

Tanks: 20 A7V
Aircraft: 2,700 Aircraft, 56 Airships
Artillery Pieces: 16,000
Cavalry: 10,000

Dreadnoughts: 14
Frigates: 7 (I'm going to assume Battlecruisers fall in this class)
Battleships: 22

History: In the grand scheme of things, Germany is a fairly young nation compared to its neighbors. The idea of a united Germany was a new one, something that didn't spark until the aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars. With the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire and the creation of the newly formed, German Confederation, German nationalism began to rise drastically. However, the idea of a united Germany came with a problem, which nation would lead it.

Both Prussia and Austria were vying to be the nation to unify Germany, and both were very well in the position to do so, but only one of them could rule. In Prussia, Otto von Bismarck would end up leading the nation through wars with Denmark, Austria, and France, in an effort to unify the many German states under the Prussian Banner. The war against Austria in 1866 helped form the North German Confederation, and the Franco-Prussian War helped to convince the southern German states that a united Germany were in their best interest.

Unification of all the German states created a massive new power within Europe, one that upset the balance of power. With a rapidly growing economy, massive army, and an increasing navy, Germany was seen as a threat to many European powers. With tensions rising in Europe, all it took was one spark to cause a war, and with the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Germany gave Austria-Hungary its full support, joining its side in the Great War.

However, everything that Germany has gained ,in the past 40 years, may all be lost with its defeat in the war.

RP Sample: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=458919

Other: I saw that, slight alternate history was being allowed, so I hope it's fine if the Kaiser and three other German Kings didn't abdicate in this timeline.

I accept and acknowledge the rules, terms, and premise of this roleplay: Mifan

Do Not Remove: Pepperoni Pizza Pie

Accepted unless the OP says otherwise. Have fun counterbalancing the British, though that might be difficult with the Paris Peace Conference starting soon.

[Serbia-Macebonia]

(Image)

NS Nation Name: Mifan
Nation Name (Official): The German Empire
Nation Name (Shortened): Germany
Capital City: Berlin
Type of Government: Constitutional Monarchy
Leader: Kaiser Wilhelm II
Territory: 1914 German Empire Borders
Colonies: IRL German Colonies
Primary Religion: Christianity, United Protestant to be exact
Primary Ethnicity: German (As a Whole) Prussian, Bavarian, Saxon, Swabian (Based off the four German Kingdoms)
GDP (Nominal): 45 Billion

---

Active Duty Troops: 4.5 Million
Reserve Troops: 5.5 Million
Total Manpower: 10 Million

Tanks: 20 A7V
Aircraft: 2,700 Aircraft, 56 Airships
Artillery Pieces: 16,000
Cavalry: 10,000

Dreadnoughts: 14
Frigates: 7 (I'm going to assume Battlecruisers fall in this class)
Battleships: 22

History: In the grand scheme of things, Germany is a fairly young nation compared to its neighbors. The idea of a united Germany was a new one, something that didn't spark until the aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars. With the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire and the creation of the newly formed, German Confederation, German nationalism began to rise drastically. However, the idea of a united Germany came with a problem, which nation would lead it.

Both Prussia and Austria were vying to be the nation to unify Germany, and both were very well in the position to do so, but only one of them could rule. In Prussia, Otto von Bismarck would end up leading the nation through wars with Denmark, Austria, and France, in an effort to unify the many German states under the Prussian Banner. The war against Austria in 1866 helped form the North German Confederation, and the Franco-Prussian War helped to convince the southern German states that a united Germany were in their best interest.

Unification of all the German states created a massive new power within Europe, one that upset the balance of power. With a rapidly growing economy, massive army, and an increasing navy, Germany was seen as a threat to many European powers. With tensions rising in Europe, all it took was one spark to cause a war, and with the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Germany gave Austria-Hungary its full support, joining its side in the Great War.

However, everything that Germany has gained ,in the past 40 years, may all be lost with its defeat in the war.

RP Sample: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=458919

Other: I saw that, slight alternate history was being allowed, so I hope it's fine if the Kaiser and three other German Kings didn't abdicate in this timeline.

I accept and acknowledge the rules, terms, and premise of this roleplay: Mifan

Do Not Remove: Pepperoni Pizza Pie

Accepted unless the OP says otherwise. Have fun counterbalancing the British, though that might be difficult with the Paris Peace Conference starting soon.

I concur. It'll be fun to invite the player Germany to the Versailles conf. to have Wilson meet with Wilhelm.

[Serbia-Macebonia]

Updated roster and date is in place. Expect a post from me later on, as well as an ORBAT. I hope any of you that are fathers and have fathers are having a Happy Father's Day.

[Strala]

The only things I want from Germany are thier concessions in China, some of their warships, hopefully a few dreadnoughts and/or superdreadnoughts or battlecruisers, and their weapons, mainly artillery and machine guns. I don't care much for reparations. Op if you want, I can also try to rp as France for the Paris Peace Conference. This is to mainly have an antagonizing force if no one else wants to punish the Germans harshly. There always needs to be an antagonizing force and the French are perfect for that role in this scenario

[Greater Liverpool]

The only things I want from Germany are thier concessions in China, some of their warships, hopefully a few dreadnoughts and/or superdreadnoughts or battlecruisers, and their weapons, mainly artillery and machine guns. I don't care much for reparations. Op if you want, I can also try to rp as France for the Paris Peace Conference. This is to mainly have an antagonizing force if no one else wants to punish the Germans harshly. There always needs to be an antagonizing force and the French are perfect for that role in this scenario

China is not going to get much.

Edit: Plus if you actively start supporting the Reds you might get kicked out the Conference

[Greater Liverpool]

Also to the soviet player, I would be cautious bringing out some of the Baltic fleet since the Royal Navy currently has a sizeable force in area supporting the Baltic front.

[Strala]

The only things I want from Germany are thier concessions in China, some of their warships, hopefully a few dreadnoughts and/or superdreadnoughts or battlecruisers, and their weapons, mainly artillery and machine guns. I don't care much for reparations. Op if you want, I can also try to rp as France for the Paris Peace Conference. This is to mainly have an antagonizing force if no one else wants to punish the Germans harshly. There always needs to be an antagonizing force and the French are perfect for that role in this scenario

China is not going to get much.

Edit: Plus if you actively start supporting the Reds you might get kicked out the Conference

That depends. Again my main priority is gaining the concessions and China will view the concessions being given to another country as illegitimate. If the British continues to antagonize China, then China will continue to escalate their actions against the entente. Britain while it does have significant leveraging power, has to deal with its own domestic unrest and war weariness, something China does not have to face right now. The same goes for most of the major European powers.

[Greater Liverpool]

China is not going to get much.

Edit: Plus if you actively start supporting the Reds you might get kicked out the Conference

That depends. Again my main priority is gaining the concessions and China will view the concessions being given to another country as illegitimate. If the British continues to antagonize China, then China will continue to escalate their actions against the entente. Britain while it does have significant leveraging power, has to deal with its own domestic unrest and war weariness, something China does not have to face right now. The same goes for most of the major European powers.

Wait why does China not have to face that right now you should literally be entering the Warlord Era of Chinese history. Plus the Chinese army would be incredibly weak due to lack of arms.

[Strala]

That depends. Again my main priority is gaining the concessions and China will view the concessions being given to another country as illegitimate. If the British continues to antagonize China, then China will continue to escalate their actions against the entente. Britain while it does have significant leveraging power, has to deal with its own domestic unrest and war weariness, something China does not have to face right now. The same goes for most of the major European powers.

Wait why does China not have to face that right now you should literally be entering the Warlord Era of Chinese history. Plus the Chinese army would be incredibly weak due to lack of arms.

My app was approved by the Op, which allows for the Warlord Era to be more akin to the Nanjing era than the OTL Warlord Era due to the success of the Second Revolution. While there are still powerful warlords in the Northeast and west, the more populated and wealthier Eastern and southern provinces are firmly under the control of the Nanjing government. Chinese industrialization was also hampered by the factionalism which isn't as severe so arming the soldiers isn't nearly as big of a problem. While they aren't as well equipped as your standard British, American, or French soldier, they aren't as poorly trained and equipped as the Warlord armies of OTL and the Centrla government has the means to arm and equip every man decently.

[Greater Liverpool]

Wait why does China not have to face that right now you should literally be entering the Warlord Era of Chinese history. Plus the Chinese army would be incredibly weak due to lack of arms.

My app was approved by the Op, which allows for the Warlord Era to be more akin to the Nanjing era than the OTL Warlord Era due to the success of the Second Revolution. While there are still powerful warlords in the Northeast and west, the more populated and wealthier Eastern and southern provinces are firmly under the control of the Nanjing government. Chinese industrialization was also hampered by the factionalism which isn't as severe so arming the soldiers isn't nearly as big of a problem. While they aren't as well equipped as your standard British, American, or French soldier, they aren't as poorly trained and equipped as the Warlord armies of OTL and the Centrla government has the means to arm and equip every man decently.

But you have fundamentally changed Chinese history. I am sorry but I don't like the fact that pretty much all of the other nations in this RP have been made under the impression that we needed our nations to be as historical as possible and most have been made with the exact same IRL history. It is cheap to edit the history of your nation to make it strong when the rest of us haven't changed it and are working within that. Especially since yours is also sightly unrealistic because China is not an industrial nation at this point in history and to me it seems like you are Godmodding it fit your idea of what the China you want it to be in this RP.

[South Americanastan]

Well, I'm gonna need some popcorn to watch this.

[Strala]

My app was approved by the Op, which allows for the Warlord Era to be more akin to the Nanjing era than the OTL Warlord Era due to the success of the Second Revolution. While there are still powerful warlords in the Northeast and west, the more populated and wealthier Eastern and southern provinces are firmly under the control of the Nanjing government. Chinese industrialization was also hampered by the factionalism which isn't as severe so arming the soldiers isn't nearly as big of a problem. While they aren't as well equipped as your standard British, American, or French soldier, they aren't as poorly trained and equipped as the Warlord armies of OTL and the Centrla government has the means to arm and equip every man decently.

But you have fundamentally changed Chinese history. I am sorry but I don't like the fact that pretty much all of the other nations in this RP have been made under the impression that we needed our nations to be as historical as possible and most have been made with the exact same IRL history. It is cheap to edit the history of your nation to make it strong when the rest of us haven't changed it and are working within that. Especially since yours is also sightly unrealistic because China is not an industrial nation at this point in history and to me it seems like you are Godmodding it fit your idea of what the China you want it to be in this RP.

I have received the Op's permission for this and if he says that it doesn't work, then I'll edit it out. Again I'm not claiming that China is industrial or strong, just that it has the industry to admit the soldiers that it currently fields, which is smaller than the American or British forces. Even with China's limited industry it is not hard to produce enough rifles and other basic equipment to arm its soldiers. It is not like China is giving everyone MP 18s and making chemical weapons, tanks, or even airplanes. The government prioritized a decent military and achieved it. The navy is old and poorly maintained and it's air capabilities are basically non existent

[Serbia-Macebonia]

My app was approved by the Op, which allows for the Warlord Era to be more akin to the Nanjing era than the OTL Warlord Era due to the success of the Second Revolution. While there are still powerful warlords in the Northeast and west, the more populated and wealthier Eastern and southern provinces are firmly under the control of the Nanjing government. Chinese industrialization was also hampered by the factionalism which isn't as severe so arming the soldiers isn't nearly as big of a problem. While they aren't as well equipped as your standard British, American, or French soldier, they aren't as poorly trained and equipped as the Warlord armies of OTL and the Centrla government has the means to arm and equip every man decently.

But you have fundamentally changed Chinese history. I am sorry but I don't like the fact that pretty much all of the other nations in this RP have been made under the impression that we needed our nations to be as historical as possible and most have been made with the exact same IRL history. It is cheap to edit the history of your nation to make it strong when the rest of us haven't changed it and are working within that. Especially since yours is also sightly unrealistic because China is not an industrial nation at this point in history and to me it seems like you are Godmodding it fit your idea of what the China you want it to be in this RP.

I'm not in any way trying to force you to be strictly historical. If it bothers you enough, I'll hold a poll on whether to strip China of their changes, if enough people feel as it's godmodding.

[South Americanastan]

But you have fundamentally changed Chinese history. I am sorry but I don't like the fact that pretty much all of the other nations in this RP have been made under the impression that we needed our nations to be as historical as possible and most have been made with the exact same IRL history. It is cheap to edit the history of your nation to make it strong when the rest of us haven't changed it and are working within that. Especially since yours is also sightly unrealistic because China is not an industrial nation at this point in history and to me it seems like you are Godmodding it fit your idea of what the China you want it to be in this RP.

I'm not in any way trying to force you to be strictly historical. If it bothers you enough, I'll hold a poll on whether to strip China of their changes, if enough people feel as it's godmodding.

I kind of feel it was little bit too much. Having Sun Yat-Sen regain power is fine, having the soecond revolution succeed is fine, but being able to succesfully industrialise to the extent that they have just doesn't sit right. Remember, China is only 4 years removed from the collapse of the first Republic, 9 years removed from the first revolution, and 17 years removed from the Boxer Rebellion. They would defintely be still struggling with outdated tactics and equipment, along with a lot more warlords.

[Strala]

I'm not in any way trying to force you to be strictly historical. If it bothers you enough, I'll hold a poll on whether to strip China of their changes, if enough people feel as it's godmodding.

I kind of feel it was little bit too much. Having Sun Yat-Sen regain power is fine, having the soecond revolution succeed is fine, but being able to succesfully industrialise to the extent that they have just doesn't sit right. Remember, China is only 4 years removed from the collapse of the first Republic, 9 years removed from the first revolution, and 17 years removed from the Boxer Rebellion. They would defintely be still struggling with outdated tactics and equipment, along with a lot more warlords.

That is fine since it's your opinion, but on my app I never stated that China successfully industrialized. Again if the Central government has enough control then it is able to begin industrialization efforts and even with China's limited industry if the government pushes it enough, it can be able to make the basic equipment needed. The Chinese military already began modernization efforts by the late 19th century with Chinese built arsenals able to produce European Artillery. What I assume is that everyone thinks of early 20th century Chinese armies as peasant levies which is far from the truth. China had a weak navy, not an army. European powers thought of China as a major military threat on land.

[South Americanastan]

I kind of feel it was little bit too much. Having Sun Yat-Sen regain power is fine, having the soecond revolution succeed is fine, but being able to succesfully industrialise to the extent that they have just doesn't sit right. Remember, China is only 4 years removed from the collapse of the first Republic, 9 years removed from the first revolution, and 17 years removed from the Boxer Rebellion. They would defintely be still struggling with outdated tactics and equipment, along with a lot more warlords.

That is fine since it's your opinion, but on my app I never stated that China successfully industrialized. Again if the Central government has enough control then it is able to begin industrialization efforts and even with China's limited industry if the government pushes it enough, it can be able to make the basic equipment needed. The Chinese military already began modernization efforts by the late 19th century with some Chinese arsenals able to produce European Artillery.

Yes, but you have to remember, those Arsenals belonged to the Qing. Many of them were probably destroyed in the many revolutions against them. The formation of the Republic was not an instant coup, but a slow series of rebellions.

[Strala]

That is fine since it's your opinion, but on my app I never stated that China successfully industrialized. Again if the Central government has enough control then it is able to begin industrialization efforts and even with China's limited industry if the government pushes it enough, it can be able to make the basic equipment needed. The Chinese military already began modernization efforts by the late 19th century with some Chinese arsenals able to produce European Artillery.

Yes, but you have to remember, those Arsenals belonged to the Qing. Many of them were probably destroyed in the many revolutions against them. The formation of the Republic was not an instant coup, but a slow series of rebellions.

While I agree with your statement about the Republic was formed over a series of rebellions, most of these arsenals were not destroyed. They were used by whoever control them, and many of them would have been repaired after the Taiping rebellion, and many of them would join the revolutionaries when the Xinahi revolution started. The more important/larger arsenals were in or near Republican controlled lands, with some like the Hanyang arsenal's production expanding exponentially during the course of the early Republic. Others like the Jiangnan arsenals likely were repaired and production continued as normal. The Taiyuan arsenals would be built in 1912 in Shanxi, whose governor was a supporter of Sun Yat-Sen. The Jinling arsenal would likely have also been somewhat expanded. I will day, however, quality of Chinese produced weapons is probably worse than European ones since Chinese steel foundries were not known for producing exceptionally high quality steel

[South Americanastan]

Yes, but you have to remember, those Arsenals belonged to the Qing. Many of them were probably destroyed in the many revolutions against them. The formation of the Republic was not an instant coup, but a slow series of rebellions.

While I agree with your statement about the Republic was formed over a series of rebellions, most of these arsenals were not destroyed. They were used by whoever control them, and many of them would have been repaired after the Taiping rebellion, and many of them would join the revolutionaries when the Xinahi revolution started. The more important/larger arsenals were in or near Republican controlled lands, with some like the Hanyang arsenal's production expanding exponentially during the course of the early Republic. Others like the Jiangnan arsenals likely were repaired and production continued as normal. The Taiyuan arsenals would be built in 1912 in Shanxi, whose governor was a supporter of Sun Yat-Sen. The Jinling arsenal would likely have also been somewhat expanded.

While many arsenals were used, there is also the likely chaos after the second revolution, with forces still loyal to Yuan Shikai attempting to fight Kuomintang forces, probably crippling arsenals in the process. I can only imagine that a civil war, however brief, would break out after Sun Yat-Sen coup, doing a similar amount of damage that the warlord era did to Chinese military capabilities and industialisation. The Second Revolution had major resistance IRL, and I doubt that would change.

[Strala]

While I agree with your statement about the Republic was formed over a series of rebellions, most of these arsenals were not destroyed. They were used by whoever control them, and many of them would have been repaired after the Taiping rebellion, and many of them would join the revolutionaries when the Xinahi revolution started. The more important/larger arsenals were in or near Republican controlled lands, with some like the Hanyang arsenal's production expanding exponentially during the course of the early Republic. Others like the Jiangnan arsenals likely were repaired and production continued as normal. The Taiyuan arsenals would be built in 1912 in Shanxi, whose governor was a supporter of Sun Yat-Sen. The Jinling arsenal would likely have also been somewhat expanded.

While many arsenals were used, there is also the likely chaos after the second revolution, with forces still loyal to Yuan Shikai attempting to fight Kuomintang forces, probably crippling arsenals in the process. I can only imagine that a civil war, however brief, would break out after Sun Yat-Sen coup, doing a similar amount of damage that the warlord era did to Chinese military capabilities and industialisation. The Second Revolution had major resistance IRL, and I doubt that would change.

No doubt about it, but most of these arsenals I listed are in areas that pledged their support to Sun Yat-Sen's second revolution OTL and are in deep Rrpublican areas. There are definitely arsenals in the North that got damaged such as the Taiyuan arsenals, but the others probably didn't suffer nearly as much damage as they could have. Again, producing rifles and artillery are somewhat simple and easy and cheap. It's not like I'm suddenly making the Chinese naval industry a world class one. Also training troops and equipping them takes time. I'm also not making the reserves or the expanded forces as well equipped or trained. The only thing that I'd common between them and the normal army is their uniform and maybe rifles, which not everyone gets.

[South Americanastan]

While many arsenals were used, there is also the likely chaos after the second revolution, with forces still loyal to Yuan Shikai attempting to fight Kuomintang forces, probably crippling arsenals in the process. I can only imagine that a civil war, however brief, would break out after Sun Yat-Sen coup, doing a similar amount of damage that the warlord era did to Chinese military capabilities and industialisation. The Second Revolution had major resistance IRL, and I doubt that would change.

No doubt about it, but most of these arsenals I listed are in areas that pledged their support to Sun Yat-Sen's second revolution OTL and are in deep Rrpublican areas. There are definitely arsenals in the North that got damaged such as the Taiyuan arsenals, but the others probably didn't suffer nearly as much damage as they could have. Again, producing rifles and artillery are somewhat simple and easy and cheap. It's not like I'm suddenly making the Chinese naval industry a world class one. Also training troops and equipping them takes time. I'm also not making the reserves or the expanded forces as well equipped or trained. The only thing that I'd common between them and the normal army is their uniform and maybe rifles, which not everyone gets.

The Northern Arsenals are also the most important at this time. The war with the White Army, and any possible conflict with Japan, would need the Northern Arsenals to supply soldiers. The Civil War would also do major damage to the North's infrastructure, along with the North's industry, resulting in supplies being scarce until the damage is repaired.

[Strala]

No doubt about it, but most of these arsenals I listed are in areas that pledged their support to Sun Yat-Sen's second revolution OTL and are in deep Rrpublican areas. There are definitely arsenals in the North that got damaged such as the Taiyuan arsenals, but the others probably didn't suffer nearly as much damage as they could have. Again, producing rifles and artillery are somewhat simple and easy and cheap. It's not like I'm suddenly making the Chinese naval industry a world class one. Also training troops and equipping them takes time. I'm also not making the reserves or the expanded forces as well equipped or trained. The only thing that I'd common between them and the normal army is their uniform and maybe rifles, which not everyone gets.

The Northern Arsenals are also the most important at this time. The war with the White Army, and any possible conflict with Japan, would need the Northern Arsenals to supply soldiers. The Civil War would also do major damage to the North's infrastructure, along with the North's industry, resulting in supplies being scarce until the damage is repaired.

And that's a weakness that the Whites or Japanese can exploit. Every loss suffered by the Chinese will take a while to replace. There is likely enough arsenals operational to supply basic things such as rifles and cartridges but cannons and heavier gujs will rake longer to replace. Also conflict is not a given. The Chinese will want to tie up white troops for as long as possible and if possible, and try to pressure a favorable treaty mainly having the Whites give up control of claims of concessions in China and the China eastern railway and maybe limit the number of troops on the Chinese border.

[Monsone]

Also to the soviet player, I would be cautious bringing out some of the Baltic fleet since the Royal Navy currently has a sizeable force in area supporting the Baltic front.

The Baltic is also frozen over, hence the Ice Cruise of the Baltic Fleet in 1918. Plus, the Baltic Fleet and Royal Navy fought IRL, and both sides suffered losses, though none were of a terrible significance. In fact, the most significant loss for the Baltic Fleet in 1919 was caused by a fire in a boiler room that gutted a dreadnought battleship (Petropavlovsk), and that is despite the British trying to sink that ship among others with torpedoes from motor torpedo boats.